[Jesus, The King, The Lord of Hosts]

Angelic Man, Shiro


What is it with you guys, why is it that JWs are dishonbest.

On the "Error in Doctrine" thread on this forum, Angelic Man, posted his reply #47, where he gave his understanding of the triune nature of the GodHead.

I responded to Harry the same day, at reply #48,  and then the next day he edited his response to make it state something altogether different than what he initially posted, after he realized he made a mistake..

Your dishonesty, just goes to show , to what extremes you will go, to deny the diety  of Jesus.

But no matter what you say, think, or do, it won't change the scriptures, especially  at Jhn 12:41, where John, says; that Isaiah saw Jesus, The King, The Lord of Hosts in that vision  Isaiah had, at Isa 6:1-5.

This vision of Jesus, is of Him, as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, at His second coming, in the Temple He will build, according to 1 Chr 17:1-5, when God spoke these words to Nathan the prophet to tell King David.

You got confused because, at your NWT, the Word Jehovah is used to describe the "Lord of Hosts" at verses 3, and 5 of Isaiah 6.

The Apostle John at chapter 12, tells us, Isaiah saw his Jesus) glory and spoke of him.


So then, the Lord of Hosts of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the NT.

Pay attention, fellows..


Petro

[he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire]

There are two things, that don't quite, sound right.

1. One must be baptized, (water immersion) to be saved.

What happened to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which Jesus baptizes with..


Water baptism doesn't save anyone, but being baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus does.

Luke 3
16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: (also, Mat 3:11, Mk 1:

And the Apostle John , writes;

Jhn 1
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So, which baptism is in view, herein, where Jesus say;

Mat 16
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..

If you think it is water, baptism, why and how can you reconcile it with Luke 3:16, Mat 3:11, and Mk 1:8.??

2.  One must do some work;

What work?? Must one do to be saved??

The works, which prove one is saved are done after, that person is saved, this is the evidence he/she has been saved.

But that is not the question, Mardis, herein has stated, one must do somekind of work to be saved,  so, I ask what work must one do to be saved??

Please show your work using scripture..

Abraham, was saved without works, it is written he believed and it was counted unto him, for righteouness, in fact here is the scripture passage;

Rom 4
1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


God chose Abraham, and set him apart, that he might believe the truth, and when he believed the truth concerning God, he was saved.

If believing is a work, I guess I would have to concede, that Abraham, did some kind of work, since he did climb the mountain, while carrying the wood pile, on his way to sacrifice Isaac, as commanded by God, on the other hand, obeying God command is work also, and in doing so, someone can show a measure of faith.

But the scriptures tell us that Faith, is a free gift, given by God thru his grace;

Eph 2
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And salvation is obtained by the excersicing of it, and it is not a work.

The Gospel is actually very simple, and at the same time, it is difficult to grasp, because man, being man, always wants to add to it, his 2 cents;

But the Word of God, says;

Rom 10
8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Blessings,  

Petro

[For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.]

What happened to people who died before the ressurection, who, obviously , were not saved Jesus paying the price for us?  Maybe this is a dumb question with an obvious answer, if it is, somebody please tell me which bible book to look in.  Like Joseph or abraham, cuz they werent perfect but believed fully in God.  Jesus had not died for them yet so there sins could not be forgiven by grace.  And the cost of sin is death, I cant imagine there in hell, but I can't find a explanation for it.  Does Jesus' sacrifice transcend time, therefore paiyng for those before and after him maybe?  I don't know.  I'm not that well read (yet).  Educate me please.  

peterkeys, I say welcome here;

In the Gospels, at Luke 16, Jesus gives the account of Lazarus, a beggar, who laid at the gate of a rich mans house, and in the story, (which I believe is a true one, simply because He uses the beggars name and the name of Abraham) He gives an account of what happened afterward, he (the beggar) was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom.  

You can read the story at; Lk 16:20-31.

Then at Heb 11, there is an account of all the men of faith, whom God has chosen to list therein, who all died in faith never receiving the promises  made to Abraham, of which the scriputres says that;

Heb 11
8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


And this chapter ends, this way; concerning all the people of faith in God..

39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

These people of which you ask, though they are dead and in the grave will be resurrected, because they beleived God in that He is able to resurrect the dead, see what the verse says concerning Abrham;

Heb 11
17  By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had receiuved the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,
18  even though God had said to him,  "It is through Isaac that your offspring" will be reckoned"
19  Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from the dead.

This then is what the work which Abraham did in obedience to God, and his faith was such that because God had promised him, a son, through WHOM ALL the  promises would be accomplished.

That Son, is Jesus, (who spoke all the words God put in His mouth to speak to men, as testimony of who He was), rose from that dead, and has given us His word, that he will give eternal life to all who put their faith in Him.

Since God has testified that it is He, who will judge all the living and the dead, at the end of the age.

In order to receive these promises, one must believe that Jesus is who, He claimed to be, and above all else, that He died not only for the sins of the world; but that he died specifically  for my/your sins.

And in believing this, His words will become real, as Gods word was real to them of the faith  in God, before Jesus came.

This is what Jesus says;

He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
(Jhn 12:44-50)

them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.  (Jhn 10:25-30)

So, to answer your question directly, those that died in faith of God spromises, have eternal life reserved for them, and will be raised, together with everyone else in the last day, and will be rewarded according to the faith, with eternity in the prescence of God.

In the meantime, their souls are held by the power of God, until that day comes..

Blessings,

Petro

[And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.]

By the way  meant to popst this NT verse referencing the words of the Angel, when appeared unto Mary, beforer the Holy Spirit overshawoded her, concerning Jesus;

Luke 1
26  And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28  And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29  And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30  And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

I am reminded of the prophecy of Isaiah, who prophecied;

Isa 7
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The NT fulfillment of this prophecy can be found in Mat 1:16-25, and Luke 2:22-3:15..


Blessings,

Petro

[A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.]

Yehudi  aka; Daniel,

Your questions are good, they excercise the gray matter, which is even better..

Only by doing this can, we settle questions that seem to be inconsistent, with what has been written.

This verse is part of a passage that ostensibly deals with the prohibition on the consumption of blood. When this verse is considered in its entirety, it becomes evident that a specific statement concerning blood is conveyed. Namely, that the blood of the sacrifice must be placed "… upon the altar to atone for your souls; …", i.e., that the only way blood can bring atonement is if placed on the sacrificial altar in the Temple - this is a necessary condition, a requirement. The pertinent question here is: "Was the blood of Jesus sprinkled on the altar as specified in Leviticus 17:11?"

Daniel,

In the Geneology  Thread, I posted from the letter to the Hebrews, and we saw, how, the NT was also ratified by blood as the OT, and how that Abraham, was made promises by God, while he yet was uncircumcised  that he would be the father also, of those that came by that same faith he excercised in believeing  God, which produced righteousness in him.

So then of necessity it is,  that Jesus being the author of a New Covenant, who ratified it by his own blood, also offer up the blood, at the alter.  

Remember that Hebrews tells us that the earthly tabernacle which Moses made, was a shadow of the really tabernacle which the Lord made in the heavens, of which where Jesus performs service. (Heb 8:1-5)

And since He is our high priest;

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. (Heb 8:2)

He offered his own blood, at that alter, in the heavenlies,  not made with humans hands, so that;

Heb 13
10  We have an altar, whereof they (the priests who minister the OT) have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11  For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12  Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Since by His sacrifice He............ "hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;" (Rev 1:6, 5:10) so that we, who were once outside the promises of God, who have come to that same faith of  Abraham,  shall reign on the earth.

So, our eyes are not earthly temples or tabernaclers, but on Him, who everliveth, and makes intercession for us at the very Throne of God.

Final question, who publishes that book you reference, and where can one obtain at copy.

Thank you, and

God Bless,

Petro

15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18  Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19  For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20  Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21  Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

I pray that these truths, may settle your mind, and that you might consider what has been written for those who seek the truth of the Word of God, it is difficult, what, with so much that is written of men, these days, on "How to, this or that", but we have the sure word of truth in these accounts of both Testaments, that are written for our own admonishment, and instruction, which when received with all anticipation by faith, becomes an anchor of our souls.

The same Paul who wrote these words for us in the book of Hebrews, writes these words;

2 Cor 3
12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13  And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


God Bless

Petro

2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3  And this will we do, if God permit.

And after having said all this, The Apostle Paul, a converted Pharasee of Phrarasee's by his own words, says;

Heb 7
13  For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14  Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15  And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16  For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17  Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19  Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20  Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7:1  For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2  To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3  Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4  Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5  And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6  But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7  And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13  For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14  For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15  And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18  For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20  And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28  For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Daniel,  what do we know, except what God has put in our hearts to believe, we would never have know, how to even think this matter through, had it not been for the OT account of Gods promises to our adopted Patriarch Abraham, and the NT account written by Paul of Tarsus.

He even goes on to say;

Heb 8
8:1  Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2  A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3  For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4  For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5  Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.
6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1  Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2  For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3  And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4  Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5  And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6  Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7  But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Continued**********

[For finding fault with them]

TalmidDaniel,

Now concerning His priesthood, what does the prophet Jeremiah say;

Jer 31
31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Apostle Paul, echos the same words in;

Heb 8
7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

After having said this concerning Jesus;

Heb3
1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2  Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3  For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4  For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5  And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6  But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16  For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17  But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10  For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
5:1  For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2  Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3  And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4  And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6  As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10  Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11  Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Continued**************

But the most obvious of this prophesy, is that it was never fulfilled in Solomon, but it will be in Jesus, He will return to the Mt Olives, and physical stand in that place in that day;

Heb 9
28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The Prophet Isaiah had a vision of Jesus, sitting on the throne in the house of God which He shall build upon his return and the prophet Zec, says;

 (In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.)

Isa 6
1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2  Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4  And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5  Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

We know this because John tells us, That Isaiah saw Jesus, in (Jhn 12:35:41)

There are some questions that I would like to ask you; not being familiar with Hebrew words;  

1. What book did you quote, verses from??

2. You used the word "HASHEM" for the word JEHOVAH, ??  Is this a different word

I am interested in a Old  Hebrew English Interlineaer, any recommendations, unfortunately I don't know Hebrew, but that wouldn't stop me from pruchasing one if it was available.

God Bless,

Petro

[The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.]

posted by TalmidDaniel
Most Christians are not learned in Jewish law, (no offense), and are thus unaware of the triune (pardon the expression) nature of the genealogical problem associated with claiming Jesus as the Messiah. However, since the Christian claim is that Jesus is the JEWISH Messiah, then we must put the case under JEWISH scrutiny, and see if it fits under JEWISH law. The following is an examination of the genealogy of the man whom Christians call Lord and Savior.

Greetings Daniel,

What you say is true, I have often wondered about this "nature of the genealogical problem associated with claiming Jesus as the Messiah"

I  have looked into the geneology carefully, and I am happy to share with you what I have been able to see, from this side of the Book of Books.

First of all, these two geneologies listed in the NT, the frist at Mat 1, and the second at Luke 3.

The first, that is to say Mathews geneology follows the Royal Line from Abraham thru David and  through his son Solomon to, the next king to Jesus the Christ.

The formula; The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. at Mat 1; is similar to the expression in Gen 5:1; This is the book of the geneology of Adam.

The first Adam was head of the first, or physical creation. Christ, as the last Adam is head of the new , or spiritual creation.

The NT, book to the Corinthians, puts it this way;  

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving spirit. (1Cor15:22,45)

Both Gospels conclude Joseph as the  father of Jesus.

While, Lukes geneology follows the Blood Line through another son, Nathan , which concludes with Joseph as father of whom Jesus is the adopted son, it must be an actual tracing of Mary's ancestry of whom Jesus, was the real son, this is evident by the exclusion of Solomon in the direct geneology. (Therer appears to be a reason for this being Mary's lineage, of which I will make mention further on)

In Mathew' s  Gospel the subject is Jesus as Jehovah-Savior, the title "Christ" as the "Annointed" long awaited Messiah of Israel. The title "Son of David" is associated with both roles as Messiah and King in the OT, while the title "Son of Abraham" presents our Lord as the one on  whom is ultimately the fulfillment made of the promises God made to the Patrairch of the Hebrew people.

In the registry of Mathew 1, there are 4 women mentioned; Thamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba her that had been the wife of Uriah concluding that Mary and Joseph were closely related in the family lineage from King David.

Now as mentioned above, If the lineage of Joseph followed thru Solomon, as in Lukes Gospel, then it would have disqualified Jesus, from being King in light of the curse placed of Jeconiah in (Jer 22:30) as you had previously mentioned, since the curse specifically stated

"Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.."

Since Jesus was the adopted son of Joseph, he did not come under this curse, and , because he was adopted He would be considered a legal Son of Joseph. And the virgin birth solved the problem of the curse.

So then what we have is this; Jesus was the legal heir to the throne thru Joseph, He was the real Son of David thru Mary, the curse did not fall on Mary or her children since she was not a descendent  from Jeconiah.

This concept of the adoption  is expanded in the NT testament, where it says;

John 1
10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And again;

Gal 4
4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A son whether adopted or otherwise, is still an heir..

The same idea extends to the those who attain the promises by faith, and of the same faith of Abraham;  note:

Rom 4
11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 9
6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And so we stand by faith on the promises made to Abraham, in this way;

Rom 8
14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Now  concerning ;

1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)
So we see, any man who would sit on the throne must not only be a descendant of King David, but specifically a descendant of David's son, Solomon. This requirement was made even more stringent in the days prior to the Babylonian exile. Jeconiah, King of Judah, was a wicked king, and his actions pushed G-d too far. G-d punished Jeconiah, also known as Jehoiachin or Coniah:

At first, I had made the same mistake, that you have made at this passage of scripture, note; that what you have quoted from above at 1 Chr 22:9, are Davids words and not Gods prophecy conecenring this matter; unfortunately, when we make a mistake like this we will come to a wrong conclusion, just, like King David did.
See, David, assumed the God was speaking of Solomon, when Natan the prophet brought him the Word of God.
Go to ;

1 Chr 17
17:1  Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.
2  Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.
3  And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
4  Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
5  For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.
6  Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
7  Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8  And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9  Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10  And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.
11  And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12  He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13  I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14  But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15  According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

So, you can see, that David simply assumed that the Prophet Nathan was speaking of His son Solomon, when in fact, God didn't even mention names.

Continued**************

Have faith in God.

God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Petro

[All]

Yehudi, welcome to this board,

There is some truth to what you have posted, as it regards human nature and such, however, the Gospels and writings of the NT, can hardly be compared to an event such as an automibile wreck or any other event in human history for that matter, because of its uniqueness.

Thank God, His word is not set strictly on the witness of what man saw, or heard, clearly the writings which appear to have inconsistent and contradicting testimonies from these Gospel writers attesting to mans in ability to get the facts down, if he relys on his memory, but we are assured that what is written is for our own admonishmen, that we might believe, these things.

As you know the writings of these Gospels and Epistles, were in almost every instence writings of things that occured and brought to memory by the Apostels and writers in all cases decades after the occurance, especially with reagrd to the resurrection.

But we have a more surer testimony of scripture in that, the witness of God the Father himself and that of the Holy Spirit, which were confirmed to us, by these writers of the NT.

Not only that, but the very Words of the Risen Savior himself,   not to mention that of many who have come by the faith promised to believe, who have gone on to live their lives testifying of the power of Gods own word to change the life of condemned men.

History gives an account of men dieing for their faith in Jesus Christ.

We know that men will die for what they believe to be the truth, but not for a lie.

So, as you can see, it is easy to dismiss on the surface what is perceived to be a myth, but when the totality of what has been written together with the physical testimony, to a dying world is scrutinized, it is practically impossible to dismiss it as a simple myth or misconception of the truth or misundertstood teaching of men.

I am afraid skeptics, will never see the truth in what scripture teaches for the simple reason they have already discounted the truth of the matter, but honest skeptics have come to faith in Christ Jesus, when they have taken time, to close examine the facts, honestly..

All of the OT, prophecies concerning the coming Mesiiah were written centuries before they were fulfilled in this Jesus, even His death and resurrection,

What are the chances of this happening; by dumb luck??

Living proof that there is a God who sits in the heavenlies, and overules in the affairs of mankind, is clearly evident, by His people whom He chose as a nation for Himself, Israel,  and their history, is the history of God dealing with that nation which although rebelious, He will in the end bring it to Himself.

No nation on earth, has been so utterly destroyed and carried off by their enemies, and scattered throughout the other nations of the world, to be gathered again, in  these latters days into the very land, given to them as an inheritance to their fathers forever.  This rebirth of this nation was prophesied In the book of Ezekiel.

Is this fulfillment of scripture, or just, dumb luck of history, or is it the result of God the Creator executing His plan which He purposed in Himself from the begining, by the Sovereign cousel of His own will.

I guess it really depends how one sees it??  

The resurrection that is??


Petro

This is adult question, so youngsters go away.

Is there any truth to the question that human cohabitation with animals ever produced a creature.  I notice in Leviticus that the behaviour, of course, is prohibited along in the same breath with homosexuality, etc.  And, of course, mythology always has plenty of strange creatures.

I'm just wondering medically, or scientifically, if anyone knows of any such creature being produced.  I remember the story of The Elephant Man, of a hundred years ago, in England, and the movie, with Anthony Hopkins, by that name.  But I think that was just deformity.

And I've heard of backwoods perversions in the hinterlands, of parents warning their kids to stay away, or not even look in that direction, when driving by, at a distance.

I know that there's plenty of that behaviour going on, that is, beastiality; I'm just wondering if it has ever produced anything.  I've never heard mention of it; just "satyrs" in mythology.  Obviously, it's all pretty gross, terrible stuff.

I believe it is impossible for human seed to be mixed, with animal seed and be able to produce, mutant form of life, for this reason;  

1 Cor 15
38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

The reason why the difference in the flesh, is because the blood, which the life of the flesh, is not the same blood.

This why animal organs will never be successfully translanted into Humans, there are certain animal by products including blood serums, that are helpful to the human body, however,  since the flesh is diferent it cannot mix with human flesh, and live, although science has been able to keep tissue alive for weeks in the bodies of patients, in the end they die.

Good question..

Petro

[Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?]

I am not interested in getting involved in the discussion, but I will add fuel, so as to help keep the discussion from dying on the vine..

Don't worry about the spelling, after all , it s history that provides the answers..

The Bible is a History book, and it is probably more accurate than any other resource available, especially if one wants to know who Jesus,is.



In the gospels, John writes this concerning  the prophet Isaiah;

Jhn 12
35  Then Jesus said unto them, while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36   While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John at verse 41, says Isaiah saw;  Jesus , in His Glory.

The Apostle John in writing this passage of scripture, quotes Isaiah's writings at chapters  6 and 53, of the book of Isaiah.
 
The book of Isaiah is dated 7th century B.C. , most events discussed are pre and post exilic concerning the nation of Isarel.

Isa 6
1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2  Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4  And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5  Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6  Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7  And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8  Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11  Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12  And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13  But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

John in verse 38, above spoke of  Isaiah's prophecy, concering  Jesus, first coming
As the Lamb of God, at Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

In verse 40, above John is refering to, Isaiah's vision, ( Isa 6:1) where he saw the Lord (Jesus) sitting on the throne, his train filling the temple and verse 3 tells us, the whole earth is full of His Glory, reffering to His second coming as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

The word Lord in verse 1 of  Isa 6, is the Hebrew word Adonay an emphatic form of the root adown (adon); the Lord (used as a prop.name of God only)

So, one asks, Who is Jesus?   He according to the historical book of the Bible is the God of the Bible.

Has he shown himself??   You be the judge..

Petro

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and really enjoy it.  I hope some of you can enlighten me on a piece of scripture that I don't understand.
It is 2 Corinthians 12:7. Please help me to understand this particular sentence.   "...I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from getting proud..."

Thanks,
TwasGrace

Welcome to this forum, TwasGrace,

I can help you with the first question.

The answer is found in the next few verses 8-11;

8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.  (KJV)

This passage is speaking of the gifts given to each person whom the Holy Spirit adds to the Body of Christ.

Note verse 11, It is the Holy Spirit who gives them out, according to His will; verse 12-20, then goes on to, state that although all are individuals, comparing them to parts of the body, they are not all the same part, but as indivduals are all parts of the same body (reffering to the Body of Christ) and all have different functions, because of these gifts.

The end result and exhortation is that "all should care one for another"  vs 25.

Trusting this will help.

Blessings
Petro