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1306  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 02, 2003, 11:32:17 AM
Well, lets see if this is true..

"............................the doctrine of Christ"[/b]

I suppose one should understand what it is, before he can determine, what this verse is speaking of.

Please note, the word "doctrine" is singular and used in the present tense.

I see the previous poster, misunderstands what that doctrine is.

Let me say that the "doctrine" of Christ, as taught in this verse, is principle to who Christ is, and although He himself confirms this doctrine, the doctrine itself concerning Him, is found in the OT.

Every person, will live or die, as a result of the doctrine of Christ.

So what is the, doctrine of Christ??

1307  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: May 02, 2003, 03:57:21 AM
When is the $64,000 question; here is what Jesus said;

Jhn 3
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

As for how; by purifying ones soul, in obeying the truth (1 Pet 1:22) and giving God and answer from a good conscience toward God (1 Pet 3:21),  only then can the Holy Spirit fill the believer, this is what John the Baptist spoke of when he said;

"he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost," (Mk 1:Cool

Jhn 1
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Note, verse 31, John says he came baptizing with water, so that He (Jesus) might be made manifest to Israel (the nation), thats all,  baptism by water never saved anyone then nor does anything for anyone today, expect proclaim a desire of the heart of the individual  to be identified with Christ, and then only when done after the new birth, as testimony.

Verse 33, the bapstism with the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the filling of the Spirit of God.



1308  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 02, 2003, 03:23:58 AM
Let's see,

2 Jhn 1
9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I don't know how anyone could question the teaching (doctrine) of the verse; hath not God, sounds pretty definitive to me, this means  this person, whoever it might be does not possess;

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Now I suppose everyone who has a problem with this verse, has to define what the doctrine of Christ is.

Maybe they could find it in the OT scriptures.

Without spending alot of time trying to do this I would say off the top of my head, His teachings would be central to the idea of identifying His doctrine. Since doctrine is defined as; teaching tenets, or principles of the faith.

Having said that, now allow me to point to JESUS own words;

Jhn 10
25  ..............  told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you..
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:.
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand..
30  I and my Father are one..

Is it not the fathers will, that these be saved eternally, whom he gives to Jesus??

NOW, since there are some that teach, and have deceived many into believing that man can lose his free gift (of salvation), if he transgresses the law, how does this square up with Jesus's doctrine herein, ?

Especially, when the Apostles and elders at the first council of Jerusalem, confirmed it was not necessary to keep the Law of Moses and be circumsiced. (Acts 15)

It would seem to me Christians, who have fallen for this doctrine, which is contrary to Jesus's doctrinal teachings, need to evaluate, the doctrine they claim to be of Jesus.

Especially, since the next two verse, are very clear;

10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

This includes internet visitors, heh..


1309  Theology / General Theology / Re:The New Birth on: May 02, 2003, 02:40:49 AM

Here is an interesting verse, which is obviously speaking of man's soul (which is what the ancient Jews described as the heart or seat of the emotions of man) and his spirit, (which is believed to be what is dead to God and the things of God) which is witnessed to by Gods spirit, that he is a child of God, when saved.

Heb 4
12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So there seems to be a difference between soul and spirit, yet it is spoken of as if it is one in the same.

Now just to clarify a point made by asaph, which I agree with, is that although man was made a living soul, at the creation to live forever, however,

After they had sinned, it is clear they died spiritually, and where cast out of the garden, "lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:(Gen 3:22)

It was an act of mercy and grace that God, sent them out of the Garden, as they could have eaten of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever, in their spiritually dead state.

Isn't this what happens to all who reject the free gift of God??

I have always wondered whether they ate of that fruit of the tree of Life at all?

Blessings,  Petro

1310  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 30, 2003, 01:30:41 PM
This then Jesus says is the unpardonable sin,

32  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Despite, the Holy Ghost's testimony that Jesus was the messiah, Judas who saw his works, which testified concerning who He was,  rejected this truth, and did despite to the spirit of Grace, who by had been sanctified (Heb 10:29), to the hearing of the Gospel by partaking of the Holy Ghost.

Anyone who does not hold to the beginning confidence stedfast to the end, is of those who fall away.

Heb 3
14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Note what do the scriptures state concerning those who fall away;

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And again, speaking of the falling away, and the man of sin;

1 Jhn 2
19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

These in Heb 6, were  those who come right up to the way, the truth, and light, took a long hard look, and then turned and walked away, and in doing so sealed their own fate.  Such as it is today, and will continue to happen until the end comes.

"If", like the other Apostles and disciples,if they had continued on in that confidence, it would have been "impossible" for them to fall away, because confidence in the end produces saving faith.

These have rejected the pardon God has been offering to "whosoever will", thats why they can never be brought again unto to repentance. Evidence of this is they have fallen away from that confidence in the teaching of the Holy Ghost.

They were never saved, to begin with, because the Word of God, teaches, that Jesus gives ;
  .................eternal life to all the father gives me, and I will raise him up at the last day. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
I and my Father are one.

This is the reason, why it is impossible for true partakers of the Holy host who have been enlightened,and tasted the good Word of God, to fall away.

Because true partakers of the Holy Ghost in the end become partakers of Jesus Christ

I trust this will help you.


1311  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 30, 2003, 01:29:03 PM

How can anyone believe unless one understands  first, I cannot help you in this department.

In order to understand one has to be able to critically examine the information put before  them and analyze it, but above all else, Christians who don't ask, don't receive. Understanding Gods word requires wisdom from above, and it only comes by prayer and supplication; to go around asking others or seeking the answers by reading others opinions, is insulting to the Spirit of God, who is able to make one wise in all matters concerning the Word of God.

James 1
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Since I am not God, I can only point out the scriptures and the words for you which illuminate the verses, which you are unable to grasp, scoffers will never come to a  more perfect understanding because they look and trust for the truth of scripture, elsewhere.

I am going to go over this with you one more time.

Jesus, said "coloir=Red]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,[/color] (John 10:28),   keeping this truth in mind, as
you read ;

Heb 6
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Whoever, these verses are speaking of, it is obvious by the beginning of verse 4 and verse 6;

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. If they shall fall away, to renew them again un to repentance;

That, these can never be brought back to repentance.

Repentance is what is needed to come to faith in Jesus Christ.

Everyone who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, has, because they first repented of their sins.

Anyone who has not repented, has not come to faith in Jesus.  In other words, this is what the one,  spoken of,  in Heb 6,  has NOT done..

He has come to a clear  enlightened understanding of the Gospel, he understands he is a sinner, he understands , he must repent, he understands God has provided a way to have his sins forgiven,  he understands the Son of God was crucified for his sins  and that the blood of Jesus is accepted in his place for the remission of his sins, and in order to receive forgiveness of sin, he understands he must believe God and repent of his sins.

In summation of these things, is this person has been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

And the result of being enlightened of the Gospel,  he has tasted the heavenly gift  

(Note:  vs 5, tells what he tasted , "the good word of God" which is able to save)

It is the Gospel which has been enlightened for him by the Spirit, and it is contaioned in the "good word of God",  just like this conversation we are having now, the truth is contained in the good Word of God, but you are unable to understand it, or grasp it, these although enlightened and having tasted the truth, haven't grasped it, because of the hardness of their heart, refer to Mat 13:19-22, you are familiar with thge passage.

Finally has been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost.

Now I already told you, that their are two meanings to the word  "partakers", when used as a noun, as it is in verse 4, in means "sharer", this individual, was a sharer in the sanctifying blessings of the Holy Spirit, He (the Spirit) enlightened him, and allowed him to taste (experience the reality) of the good word of God, thus he was one,  of many  "partakers" of the Holy Ghost.

This is clearly seen, in the life of Judas Iscariot, he literally was enlightened by the teachings of Jesus, he tasted the good word of God, in as much as he partook of the bread and wine of which Jesus said;

Mat 26
26  ..................................... Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28   For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And he was also made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, when in Mark 6:7-13, he was empowered by Jesus, to minister in the power of the Holy Spirit, he no doubt even cast out devils.

This made him a partaker a "sharer" of the ministry of the Holy Ghost;

Peter said this about Judas, in;

 Acts 1
17  For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

So then, we see that this individual spoken of in Heb 6, was in fact enlightened, was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and tasted the good word of God, which;

.............. is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.  (Heb 4:12-13)

And, in verse 6, it states "if he falls away" he can never be brought back to repentance.

Judas Iscariot fell away, after all he had been thru following Jesus 3 years, he turned his back on Him, and betrayed him, he was like these in Heb 3, who perished because of   hardness of their hearts, he was not made a partaker of Christ, otherwise he would continued with the others stedfast to the end.

He was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, but never a partaker of Christ, for if he had been a partaker of Christ he would have continued , like the others whom Jesus chose,  but, in falling away he manifested to the world,  he was not a partaker of Christ.

You say, that just because the Holy Ghost was not given, this would have been inpossible, but Jesus himself refutes this idea, since when he spoke to the Pharisees, he rebuked them saying;

Mat 12
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.  

Because they said;  24  ................... This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

When Jesus sent them out two by two, did they not cast out devils, heal, preach the coming Kingdom of God  by the Holy Spirit??

1312  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 30, 2003, 01:02:13 AM
It is good to hear your responses because, it's like iron sharpening iron. Back to particular election. I know that God deals with us as particular individuals, for we are one body yet many members. In Christ each one of us is elect. But outside of Him no one is elect. If one says he is elected before being in Christ then being in Christ is a moot point and being in Him plays second fiddle to election. But is this arguement really important? Probably not. I am in Him and you are in Him and that's what matters. Reality is what has meaning, not doctrine. I own a car. I know a few things about my car. But that car is useless to me unless I drive it. If everytime I got in the car with my wife, I start telling her the wonders of hoe this machine works, our relationship would get pretty scary. But if I enjoy her fellowship and she mine while in the car together, being in the car takes on meaning.



Exactly, I agree with what you've posted.

Look, I never talk about election, predestination, or foreknowledg with an unsaved person, when sharing the Gospel; these doctrines should only be discussed between, mature, solid food, meat eating Christians, some who still suckle, think they know all about them, and try to put their two cents worth into these threads , I have been studying these for 20 years or so, and sometimes I wonder, if I understand the doctrines at all, In answering myself, I would have to be honest, and say I don't completely.

But there are things that I understand perfectly, which have helped me to keep on track, and mindful of, and that is God does all things perfectly, and that He is a righteous judge, these two principles, are most important, which if one keeps at the forefront when trying to work thru these, doctrines, will lead to and pin down the truth

In the first place I will never give opportunity for the flesh, to enter into the picture and gain a toe hold, in these docrines; the way some Christians explain these, you would think man is equal in sovereignty to God, and that God cannot work without their cooperation, and I suspect this is where you see the "force" of God being applied.  I reject this outta hand, and I'll explain why.

The Sovereign God the creator of all the earth, is a just God.

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?? (Gen 18:25) Abraham said.

And as judge, He is only obliged to execute JUST judgement in righteousness.
And, not obliged to force himself on sinners, as many believe.

But, just because God has chosen for himself a people to save, those who do not understand the righteousness of God, take issue, that He is unjust because He saves whom He wills, and does not lift a hand to do anything for others who perish, because of their sin. They say, naaaww, that is not the way God works, and then go about explaining there version of how God works out His plan, imagine that...

Understanding this, I think is key to understanding all other issues, in fact when one sees it in the light of what the scriptures teach, all other doctrines taught in this light, fall into place, with regard to Foreknowledge, Predestination and Election of God.


1313  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 29, 2003, 11:56:29 AM
Asaph.  with reagrds to your reply #38

I have a problem with your choice of words, the word 'commands" as opposed to the word "forces" give two very distinct, meanings to what the Sovereign God has done;

Although, when used as a transative verb, "commands" does have a very close definition as "force"; "to have power to control by position"]/b] as opposed to; "power to control" not necessarily because of position, but by brute force.

"...He commands all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30; and he doesn't force them, those that do repent, He enables or empowers to come to Christ, that they might be saved.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (Jhn 6:37)   Not one will be missing...at the end..

In this day and age, one must be very precise in the use of  words;since words Christians use,  do not mean the same thing to all people, or faiths, if, your familiar with the "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" contract which was signed by visible fundamental Christians, considered to be good teachers , pastors and evangalists, such as Billy Graham, John Mc Arthur, Charles Colson, they  assumed when signing that, Rome defined words such as; Righteousness, Salvation, Justification, in the same way the apostles did which agree with the totality of scripture.

Which to their dismay, since, have realized,  Romes does not define them to mean the same, as understaood by Christians.

Why use the word force, when it would be more precise to say, "commands"

For this reason, I disagree with you, and would reject any notion, that a Sovereign God, forces anyone to do anything against his (mans) will. Men will continue to perish, because they willing refuse to obey the word of God.

But thank you for explaining, anyhow.


1314  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 29, 2003, 11:48:43 AM

Reply #39 posted by asaph

I believe in corporate election, not particular election.

This speaks of us in union with Christ as the seed. (Corporate union)

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here we have two particular individuals, Jacob and Esau. They are mentioned here, not to establish a particular election doctrine, but a corporate election doctrine. (Jacob later became Israel corporately and Esau became Edom corporately.) The purpose of God was to establish a lineage to bring Christ into the world to be His elect body; as Isaiah says: Isa.42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. And Peter says in 1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


Sometimes we think we are so smart, we inadvertently inject little bits and pieces of our own doctrines into, what the word teaches, and this why we cannot agree on anything, it seems to me.

First of all "election" is Gods business, it makes no difference who trys to summarize how God defines "election", or how He executes it, all explanations will fall short of  the act and or definition itself.

I believe that in trying to corner the type of election, people,  muddy the water up trying to insert their brand of teaching on the subject and the result is,  it becomes difficult to see, anything clearly concerning the  teaching of it.

In Election, we clearly see both particular and corporate.

The scriptures, teach both, we read in (1 Pet 1:2), of particular election; in the verse above Jacob was chosen over Esau, this is particular; Jesus himself elected or chose the twelve, over many others who had an interest in Him, this is particular.

All whom the father give me, is not this particular??

In Jhn 10:3, we are told Jesus calls his own sheep by name, when Lazarus died, He specifically called to Lazarus, a picture of spiritual salvation of those dead in sin and tresspass.

I am afraid you can't have one without the other, and yet, you say, I don't believe in the one??

I don't know what, you actually believe or think.

All I know is, we know we are sinners, and will be till the last breath leaves our bodies, and yet knowing this, we prefer to preach on the sovereignty of man, as opposed in the Sovereignty of a Just and Faithfull God.

This is the reason why, we really have these conversations, to give men credit for coming to Christ.

Thank you, but No Thank You..

I don't ever want to say to anyone, nor give anyone the impression, I believed in my own strength, I know God saved me from the pit, but He brought me kicking and screaming and arguing with his Word,  to the truth that I was a sinner, needing to repent. He didn't force to repent, and all because

He elected me, and I think He made a good choice, and thank Him for it.

As I see, it had it not been for Him drawing me to Himself, beforehand, I would never have been able to come to repentance, much less believe by faith to the saving of my soul.  

Others see their salvation differently, and do so to give themselves credit, because they really don't want God to get all of the credit.

Blessings to you,

1315  Theology / General Theology / Re:The New Birth on: April 29, 2003, 01:08:46 AM
 posted by Don
At the moment of salvation one (who is in faith believing) experiences the new birth (born again, born from above). The Holy Spirit is imparted to the Believer.
At the moment of death, WHAT ascends immediately into the presence of God?
A Spirit?

Greetings Don,

King Solomon, when speaking of death overtaking the aged man, says this, in;

Eccl 12; (speaking of the body, and the spirit;)
7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.  The entire passage actually begins at verse 1 and ends at verse 14.

The first Christian martyr, Steven, while being stoned  to death spoke the following words;   "............... calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."(Acts 7:59)

One can safely conclude, the spirit of all men, both the saved and the unsaved return to God, for disposition by God upon death.

Was THIS Spirit present within/created by the Holy Spirit?

It was created by the Word of God, when man was created and received the breath of life, he became a livng soul/spirit, at what point man receives a living soul today is debated among many scholars, I am not qualified to speak about it.

The book of Romans gives us a glimpse into the workings of the Holy Spirit;

Romans 8
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 In Gen 2:7, God created man from the dust of the earth, and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The word soul in some instances (this is one) is used to identify both the soul, and the spirit of man; it could easily be said "man became a living spirit" herein, and this also, would be true.

In Gen 1
26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...................
27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Jesus said,
Jhn 4
24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

One,  then can conclude rightly so, that man was created a living spirit, since God is a spirit, this spirit, lives forever, (never dies);man is created in the image of God,  the Bible makes the statement the the natural man is is spiritually dead in sin and tresspass (Eph 2:1-5)

Was an old, sinful spirit replaced by a holy Spirit (not THE Holy Spirit).

When the scriptures speak of the spirit man being dead in sin and trespass, it speaks of it being dead to God, since God is the giver and taker of life, but in fact it is alive to and serves sin  in doing the will of the evil one, in obediance to the spirit (the god) of this world which now worketh in the children of disobedience (2 Cor 4:3)(Eph 2:2)

The Holy Spirit of God, is given to everyone who has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus, He (the Holy Spirit) is our helper, comforter who teaches us and keeps us in the way, most importantly that thru Him, we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Cor 2:12) and it gives us peace confirming that we are children of God. (Rom 8:15-16)

Trusting this will answer your question..


1316  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 28, 2003, 06:52:54 AM

The issue is not the 5 points of Calvinism, its what did He (Calvin) teach.

Hey there Petro!

I contend that the issue isn't what Calvin taught, but what God teaches.  Cheesy  We engulf ourselves in the teachings of others and concern ourselves with our theological education.  We know much about the teachings of God, but do we know this at the expense of knowing the God of these teachings?  Mind you, I'm not advocating ignorance in the matter, but rather am advocating a proper perspective when faced with what any man says God meant.  Take their words, but be like the church at Berea...

The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Acts 17:10-11

If Calvin had truth in his statements it was not his truth but God's.  But we must not take that truth on the basis of Calvin's teachings.  We must accept, however, what God has said, whether it fits our education or no.  Please, understand that I do not post to argue.  I hope it doesn't come across in that fashion.

True,  agree, what I posted was in response to remarks made against Calvin, attributing the 5 points, to him.

1317  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 28, 2003, 06:49:43 AM
The word "Predestinated" is only used twice in the NT, both in the past tense, speaking of those who are presently  "in Christ Jesus"(Eph 1:5,11); while the word "Predestinate" is used twice in the Book of Romans, in the future tense, concerning those whom God "did foreknow" (Rom 8:29,30)

I always here this very same argument, concerning this word, man reasoning in his mind and reaching a conclusion, that if God, predestinated to save those whom he did foreknow, then He predestinated those He did not foreknow to destruction.

While this is true, it is made known to us, after the fact; for no one would know he was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world, had he not chosen Christ, and Gods choice, then is become mans choice, thereby fulfilling the will of God. (Eph 1:5,11) ".....according to the good pleasure of His will. and, ....after the counsel of His own will."

And I might add, it had nothing to do with foreknowledge either, since Grace itself, refutes this idea and or teaching of it..

My answer to all those who would rail at God, to call him unrighteous because He choses whom He will, is this; PREDESTINATION, has nothing to do with man, and everything to do with God, just because, you don't understand the end from the beginning, and you are not God, and it pleases God not to give you wisdom and insight and peace about this matter, why do you argue against His word, seeing that Predestination has to with His promises to the seed of the Promise;

Rom 9
6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. And He chooses what He will reveal, and the rest is sealed up, some Christians rest on his word by faith, while others keep kicking at the pricks, and can't accept His word as it is written, so they wrest (twist) it to their destruction. (2Pet3:16)

I say if you don't understand his word or can't accept it, Pray for wisdom and understanding that you might understand and believe.

We who are saved have been called to preach the Gospel to those that perish,

"............ if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2Tim2:25-26)

If the devil can take them captive at "his will", what free will, are you and all others refering to??

People that perish and remain in the sin of unbelief, possess "free choice", NOT "free will".

And IF they chose to believe in the way and the truth, and the result is, they are giveneternal life.


1318  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 28, 2003, 06:35:46 AM

I am glad you posted this, as it gives readers an opportunity to little by little, unravel for you, your misunderstanding of Gods word.

posted by asaph reply #34
God is sovereign, no one can defeat God's will.  Thus God's will is always enforced in the course of human events.

While the statements you have made above are,  true, your following statement, is Not ; it is only half true.

[quoted by asaph]
If God's sovereignty always requires His will to be enforced, then humans do not have free choice.
[ end of quote]

I am glad also, you recognize that there may be a difference between "free will" and "free choice", the natural man since he is dead in sin and tresspass, has no "free will", he is under the will of the god of this earth (2Cor 4:3) and sins because he can't help it.

It is a distortion to say, that God forces his will upon people, nothing could be further from the truth.

The best known verse, itself disproves your viewpoint, here it is;

2 Pet 3
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Please Note; the last portion of this verse, this is the reason men perish....becuase they refuse to repent.;God commands all men everywhere to repent (acts 17:30)

In this verse it is evident, God is "not willing that any should perish", and yet when one reads the scriptures, many perish, read towards  the end of Revelation 16;

10  And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11  And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Look at; Revelation 20

11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Using your logic, which you would have us to believe is logical, you go on to state;

Thus everything is forced to conform to God's sovereign will.

My friend, your statements lack wisdom and are " ILLOGICAL" and "UNBIBLICAL", simply because you have a distorted  understanding of the Word of God.

God knows that the [/b]natural man (1Cor2:14) is outside of his will, and HEdoes nothing absolutely, nothing to thwart the will of this man, other than to send someone preach the gospel of salvation which commands him to repent.

The "natural man"does not possess a  "free will", at best this man is able to chose good, which is right, but even that is unable to save him, what is able to  lead him to salvation , is his desire to know more of the conviction of sin which is the work of the Holy Spirit is doing in sinners hearts, and conviction of the coming judgment and righteousness.

This is what Peter speaks of, when he says, that we who have come to the faith;

"....have purified your souls in obeying the truth.... (1Pet 1:18-22);

What is the Truth??

Rom 3
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Cor 15
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to
the scriptures:

18  ......that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...
19  But with the precious blood of Christ,
21  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Please note, these verses have nothing to do with their free will, free choicedeeds or works, and everything to do with FAITH, which is a gift of the GRACE of God, since it is the Word that tells us;   That FAITH; "............ is a gift of God, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:9-8)

They perish for this reason;

8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  

Lets, say it, exactly the way it truly is, sinners will perish because they have no interest in the truth, nor the commandment to repent, this is not Gods will, but their own, free choice to not believenor obey thye commandment, they have no interest in believing the truth, those who chose to repentare the ones who do the will of God, and, in the end everyone gets what they want.

All those who desire to have their sins forgiven are forgiven, and those who do not, are not forgiven.

So where is the problem, with Gods plan, in the end as we understand it, those who are forgiven are MANIFESTED as sons of God and of Abrahams seed, the true Israel of God, precious and elect to God, having been predestinated to adoption of sons.

1319  Theology / General Theology / Re:election: a new approach on: April 25, 2003, 10:26:02 PM

Acts 15
18  Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Eph 1
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ

Deut 29
29  The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Certainly, we would agree that men feeled with the Spirit of God in other generations, have been moved to act in defending the faith, by defining words for our benefit, today.

In this present age, I am reminded that we must be careful, to define words when discussing the things of God, with all people, agreement with word meanings reveals the goats among the sheep.

Good post,  understanding the definition of  these words, which were defined, 400 some odd years ago, by  scholars, who loved the Word of God, is like looking into ones family tree and understanding, how we got here, inspite of what denominational teaching one adheres to it would be well, when discussing these teachings to inform oneself with factual  historical truths, and not make wild assertions, claiming errneous teachings to men of God, which are not true.

The 5 points of anything, are not the issue.

This only one of many sites which, have all the information on what is historically true about the reformed churches teachings.

I know there are churches today that reject, tyhese, but informing oneself about the reformed foundational teachings will allowed the uninformed to see, where the errors are to be found.



1320  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 25, 2003, 09:06:48 PM

Petro said:
The Greek-English interlinear, begins verse 4 this way;  "For [it is] impossible  those once enlightened ............", this is the word that drives the meaning the verse conveys

by Tawhano,
I agree. This was why I used this verse.


there use to be a gal on this forum, posting under the username of SherBear, you sure do remind me of her; she spoke with great pride of being verbose, and there is nothing wrong with that, butI encouraged her to engage the brain, before verbossing, cause she covered herself by backtracking as you are doing, claiming to believe only what the Word taught, but unable to comprehend the matter,  as I see it, how can anyone believe unless they understand first??  Anyhow your little jig, back and forth looks like a dance but the fact is you're stumbling around at the Word.

You say you agree but, really..... you don't..

Petro said:
The other two verses (Heb 6:5-6) bare out, this quite clearly;  in fact the next passage which contains the verses, you have cited (Heb 3:1-15), clearly defines and supports, that ultimately, the man of which Heb 6:4-6 speaks of, is someone who was there partaking of the  afforded privileges (Judas Iscariot was such a man) but because of hardness of heart, walked away, from the truth of His (Holy Spirit's ) teaching,

Tawhano's response
Problem with this rational is that the Holy Spirit was not yet given at that time to be teaching anybody anything. Jesus was doing the teaching at this point.

Well thats interesting, Jesus himself warned against blashpeming against the Holy Spirit, when they blasphemed Him, saying He had an unclean spirit. (Mk 3:29-30), was the Holy Spirit given then, NO, your confusion lies in your understanding as to whom the Holy Spirit is  given to;  

Just cause someone hears Him, doesn't mean He is saved, for what does the scriptures say, but;

Rom 2
11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And you have heard me say, the law is our schoolmaster who brings us, to Christ.
  (Gal 3:24)

Now, I know you are going to say to yourself at this point, what does the law have to do with this conversation??

Everything, since what you are trying to prove is that these who, are partakers of the Holy Spirit, in your understanding of Heb 6:4-6, lose "partaker" status, when they sin, since sin it, is  transgression of the law (1Jhn 3:4)  which you claim is their salvation..

While what is really established here in these verses, is that they were enlightened concerning the Gospel of Christ, they tasted, but have not become partakers of Christ.
These are them, that followed Jesus, ate of the fishes and loaves, and witnessed the miracles he performed saw with their very eyes; yet, they were insulted and rejected Him, when he said to then;  

Jhn 6, (consider the whole passage vs's 47-64)
51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Heb 3, sums it all up.

7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

These my friend never new  Him, but if you could have asked them, they would tell you, yahh, we know God.

And there are many today who claim to know God, but , that is not the issue, the issue is, does God know me??;  This is the question they should ask themselves.

And to those who think they know him, but are not known by Him,  He will say to them in that day

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

There are many true Christians, is this age who, think they understand what the scriptures teach, but because they are lazy, they just read commentaries, or heard the preacher say something; they go and get someone elses opinion and (if sounds like something I believe, they reason,) they embrace the teaching, instead of digging into the Word, to see if it's true allowing the Spirit to teach them and confirm the truth, of what they are reading.


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