Since I became a Christian many years ago, I have always held to the belief, that Billy Graham was an Evangelical Minister of Gods Word,  raised up by  Him, to proclaim the truth of Gods word to the dieing massess, and he has so far as I am able to determine.

And, ever since I learned he along with several other well known bible scholars, entered into the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Declaration in March 1993 (thereabouts) I have wondered  what his motivation for this really was.

I didn't see, anything wrong with joining hands with, people of other beliefs, to combat immorality, and evil, unfortunately the document failed to define the words upon which the basis for this declaration was founded on, instead of it being a moral and dignity matter, it was based on common convictions of the Christian faith and mission.

And since faith must always be founded on the words the bible defines, it should have been made very clear these definitions were agreed to by all signatoriers.
Well, this is a secondary issue in as much as this post is concerned.

While discussing this with a friend he actually had the quote which is attributed to Mr. Graham, I wrote verbatim, ref source included, his belief herein is different from the stand point of what I understand to be the teaching of Gods word.
In an interview by McCalls, article entitled "I Can't Play God Any More"; January issue 1978, Pg. 156,

Mr. Graham is quoted in his own words;

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost-were going to hell if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them, I no longer believe that  I believe that thhere are other ways of recognizing the existence of God-through nature, for instance-plenty of other opportunities, therfore, of saying 'yes' to God."

If I have not quoted this right, and someone can correct it, please feel free to do so.

How does this statement, square up with the following verse;

Rom 10
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again,
Mat 24
[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.[/color]
 
Any thoughts??


Blessings,
Petro

[This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end.]

Reply #28  Tawhano,
I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

The way I see it, the two major problems we are having here is that this post started off as a debate about OSAS and then predestination crept into it. Now you are assuming where I am arguing OSAS that I am arguing predestination and vica versa. The other problem is your hateful comments.

Tawhano,

You have forgotten already...

This thread was on "doctrine error" and it began with a refernce of 2 Jhn 1:9, speaking of the meaning of the "doctrine of Christ".

Your posts on all other threads,including this one have for some time now been centered around, your own disbelief in the very words of Jesus.

In the "Eternal Security" thread, you have argued back and forth for days, in Reply's #76, 78, 81, 107 and so on, that  the "partakers" of Heb 6:4, are those who have received and been sealed by the Holy Spirit, you even asked the question

at Reply # 81

"The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end. The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they don't hold steadfast in their faith."

Do you remember, where you are now..??
I asked  you the question, how does your understanding of this verse, square up with "Jesus's own words in Jhn 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,,

to which, you refered to Rom 11, and James 2:19; you did the same thing on Reply #6 at the  Once Saved Always Saved thread  dtd May 1, 2003 as Reply #6  when discussing this matter with Ambassadore 4Christ.

Then yesterday, you were enlightened, that  the words of Jesus are very important, and must be adhered to, as a life and death matter.

Now, if Jesus's words are  a matter of life and death, then  it is important to get the context of every verse where He spoke,  correct, lest we lose the meaning of  the teaching.

Aside from Jhn 10:28,29 and 30, I call your attention to the following verses;

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (Jhn 6:37-40,44-45)

You had previously asked this question? At the Eternal Security thread as your Reply #107  

Tawhano asks;

I have to ask this even though it may cause this thread to divert from the original topic but I need clarification. All the verses I come up with showing someone falling away is met with 'they weren't really saved'. How and when is someone saved?

The answer was given to you, in the very next reply, by Sower, as; imediately when one comes to Faith in Jesus.

Now if, One has come to faith in Jesus, this means he is saved right then and there, in your opinion, those spoken of in Heb 6, are saved because they were partakers of the Holy Ghost; not so, I said to you, because one must be a partaker of Jesus Christ, this is what saves.

Now, you claim;
 
I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

You my friend,

are in denial, you have posted so many things, you have forgotten what you posted where and what and when,

You have been espousing that all believers must obey commandments to keep their free gift of salvation, and now you would even deny this was your position. (refer to your answer above in Reply #81, I have emboldened it for you)

Your age is getting the best of you, you need to slow down, and think things through, before you reply.

Let me encourage you to get into the word, you have been given solid, verses, which reject this brand of teaching, which you hold to.

And furthermore, it is plain from all that you have posted, that you do not believe Jesus words at all, even thou you say you do,  but, that you trust in your own ability, to keep yourself to the end, and your faith is in yourself, and not Him.

And no wonder, you don't understand how and when a person is saved, but it doesn't have to be this way.  God, is willing that none should perish, this includes even those who think they are, when they are not.

Reality check.  friend..

Blessings,
Petro

[I]

Tawhano,

You do take the cake, now you want my views??

Look,  you need to reconcile what you believe with scripture, not my views.

As for how does one find the truth for salvation??

No one is deserving of anything but, judgement, because the scripture says,

Rom 3
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Do you believe this??

And as I said before, God is not obligated to save any one, but just because He does, right away some think it is because I believed.  

This is the lie, Satan would have these believe to keep them from coming to the truth of the Gospel.

God gave you the Faith to believe, O Man. you were unable to believe or receive, much less understand.


The Gospel is plain, when it says, at;

Eph 2
1  And you hath he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Jesus said;

Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Mat 8:22)

Mat 22
32  ........................God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Now Satan has his followers among God s sheep, who have introduced these heretical doctrines; which state,  "man is not really dead" , "he can hear, and believe". Part of this may be true, but, how can one hear unless he is made to hear, or believe unless he is made to understand that he might be converted??

Jesus said;

Mk 4
11  Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Do you think, one has there sins forgiven before they are converted??

And then the unlearned, reason among themselves, and conclude "if I believe, then I will be saved, so then this is my part that I need to do."

Either we were dead or not dead, depending what one chooses to believe concerning this will determine, where he winds up in the doctrine that leads to truth or  deception.

If it is true, everyone is dead in sin and tresspass, this means, a person, can't even hear the Gospel, read 2 Cor 2:14, it is plain from this verse, the natural man (although he is physically alive) is unable to receive the things of God, neither is he able understand them at all,

Why, you might ask yourself??..........because he is dead in sin and tresspass, is the answer..

So, what is it that causes some to hear, and others not to hear, it has nothing to do with man, and all to do with God, listen carefully..

Rom 9
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Nobody can will himself to believe anything concerning God, if there is none that seek God, and ALL are sinners, and dead in sin,  then it stands to reason, if any are saved it is because God, has caused it to come to pass, and it is God 's perojative and he excersizes it sovereignly.

He gives everyone the opportunity to hear the Gospel, as many times as possible throughout their lifetime, only those those who willingly respond wind up repenting and believeing him, because He cause them to hear the message,

He shows kindness and mercy, through his Grace, allowing to be drawen by the Spirit of Grace, thereby giving them Faith to believe in Jesus, and this faith had nothing to do, with anyones will or what they might have done or will do, or deserved, or intelligence or anything else,  they were dead in sin and tresspass, and could not believe, receive nor understand, and He chose not to harden their hearts, when they turned from the Gospel the many times they heard it before.

One must understand he is a sinner, period.

This is the first bleak reality one must come to, before he can start understanding, how man comes to the truth of God's Gospel.

If you are a Christian, you need to get this idea, out your head that you were saved, because you believed in Jesus, you didn't believe in Jesus at all, you simply believed, when you came to the truth that Jesus's blood forgives sin, that you were a sinner, in need of forgiveness of sin, that you were  dead and would remain dead eternally if you remained in your sin of unbelief, and there was nothing you could do about it,  you agreed with God, you were dead in sin ans tresspass.  It was only then God sent you to His Son, that your sins were washed away, this is the real Baptism with the Holy Spirit,

God cleaned you up and put his spirit within you, this is what is called the new birth, where before you did not believe, receive nor understand the word of God, but know believe it, by the Spirit who dwells within you. It was all his doing, for you to take credit for any of it, is dishonest, with the Word of Truth.

This is the doctrine that Glorifies God,

Jesus lives to intercede for his people, because the evil one accuses them of sin before the throne day and night, this is why he sits at the right hand of God, unto this day, interceding for us.

Haven't you ever read this,  

Rev 12
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Heb 7
22  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

This is why our High Priest said  [coolor=Red]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,[/color]

He not only died for those whom he saves, but he interceds for them at the throne of God, for their sinns, which they continue to comit (not because they want to, but because they have not yet been perfected, the difference is that before we were in bondage to sin before, but now being set free they are not in bondage to sin), buyt are being accused of by the accuser day and night, when they sin.

Notice what the following verses teaches us, they are speaking of the "free gift";

Rom 5
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Did you understand what verse 16 is teaching us; inspite of many offences the free gift is what justifies; we are righteous in Jesus, we are judged according to His works not ours.

Glory to God.  If I had to be judged based on my works, I would have no hope, but because of Jesus, I have this great hope. And, I confess I am a great sinner, but have a greater Savior.

How does denying the very words of Jesus, give glory to God, ??

Prophesying Christians, should believe God, and not believe heresies.

Take heed let no man deceive you...............these are Jesus own words.

Blessings
Petro

Chris,

I am afraid we will not agree, about anything, you claim to be a charismatic catholic, this is just another name for a disgruntled Roman Catholic. Who have disassociated themselves from mand become indenpent, so as to have a little more local control over your own church building and finances.

But the fact is nothing has changed, you still use all the roman catholic utensiles to continue, in the same old teachings.  In other words you have repackaged old catholicism in a new wrapper, and have added some popular visible protestant doctrines, which appeal to the senses and make you feel good.

The strongest case against the Roman Catholic church is their official teaching of the worship of idols, images and bow or making obiance to them, this includes the teaching of using  dead men (saints), and seeking their intercesscion thru prayer, contrary to the commandment, all the while trying to justify the practice, teaching the commandments of men (as it were) for the commandments of God.

You can start your own thread on this subject if you want, and I'll participate if I am inclined to do so.

Thanks anyhow,

Petro

[eternal life]

Tawhano,

It is not a wild reckless accusation, I make, when I said;

"you define faith as soemthing you produced yourself"

Since, you believe you can lose eternal life, which is the free gift Jesus, says He gives to all whom the father send to Him, and these He says, He will raise up at the last day, and they shall never perish.

While your God dishonoring doctrine, rejects the very words of the Savior. Whom you say  you believe in.

I don' have to prove anything to you, If you don't believe Jesus, what makes you think, I am going to convince you or even prove to you, you are wrong.

You need to repent of such thoughts..

Petro

[believe what Jesus, says, instead of rejecting it,]

Tawhano,

You are in denial, gert serious..

You've never answered the questions I have asked of you..

..especially, the false statement you attribute to me.

Seriously, you need to work out, what you have placed our faith in.

Its obvious to me, it is in your interpretaion of what words mean to you.

Such as faith in what you have done., not what Jesus has accomplished for you.

This is why, you agree with the statement "we are the  captain of our souls", and it makes sense,  since, you define faith as something you produced yourself.

While you may be able to believe, it is doubtful, you produced the faith necessary to be saved, evidence that you have it, will manifest itself, when you are able to believe what Jesus, says, instead of rejecting it,

...let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(Rom 3:4)

Nice try, but no cigar..friend

Blessings,

Petro


Petro

[I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.]

posted by Mandy,

I was wondering if anyone knows of any archeaological (sp) and/or historic evidence that supports what the Bible writers tell us about.

How about living proof..

Not,  that this would bring people to Jesus.

However Jesus spoke of Lazarus and the Rich Man, in (Luke 16:19-31)

Notice, what He said Moses replied to the Rich Man, who was  in pain and torment in hades.

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


So, Jesus rose from the dead, and confirming the Word of God  and promises God made to Abraham.

But, since does not stir people up, enough to repent.

Why would archeological or historical proof be sufficient?

Anyhow,  the living proof I had in mind, is the Nation of Israel, they are a historical nation, and their is much archeological proof that they existed as a nation in the Land given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the Lord.

In accordance with prophecy concerning this nation, after a dispersion throughout all the nations of the World for centuries, they are now assembled in the same land, in accordance with the Word of God.

All Christians, should become familiar with Israels history, they are the apple of Gods eye; unless God delivers on every promise He has made them, we have no hope; but we know the God we serve, will keep every preomise He has made to Abraham and the nation,  such is our faith.

Remember Gods promise to anyone that blesses Israel;

Gen 12
3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Blessings,
Petro

[at all]

Petro said:
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

[Tawhano responded]
This is the "doctrine of Christ"
This is absolutely correct Petro. This is exactly what I have been saying to you in this and other threads. This is exactly what you have rejected and called me unlearned, the son of the devil and other things. You need to practice what you preach Petro.

Tawhano,

Hello in there..

Well now, I see we are getting some place, you are starting to expose yourself, now.  so you say, you believe this. And, that is absolutely correct!!, and then even add;   "This is exactly what you have been saying all along,"   Wheeeoow!!!

I say,  you haven't been saying this, all along, at all and you really don't believe this, at all; at least not from the standpoint of what you have said up to know.

Your attention is called to John 10:25-30, aren't these the verses I have been bringin to your attention, (from way back when the discussion was centered around Heb 6:4-6;) which
Jesus spoke himself.

You don't believe Jesus at all, He said;  

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

You have been arguing all along that, a person who has been given eternal life by Jesus can PERISH..  REMEEEEMBER..

Now you change your tune.....when a verse has illuminated the subject for you, and you claim that this is what you have believed all along. Sighhh...

Your starting to really confuse me..now, and with John here's help, you've really gotten yourselves spinning around and so dizzy, to the point where you have come full circle, even agreeing with me, whom you argued with, and took exception that the word "partaker" was emphatically speaking of a saved, Spirit sealed, and filled individual..who when he sinned, fell away, and perished.

Lets see, if we can't clarify this??

You asked the question;  "How can unbelievers be partakers?

posted reply by Tawhano
What has been established here is they were in fact partakers as well as being enlightened. And as usual you have neglected to answer the one question I keep asking 'How can unbelievers be partakers?'

While being emphatic that "partakers" in Heb 6 are indeed Spirit filled believers, which perish, you deny the very words of Jesus (all along claiming you believe Jesus); and then fail to support this heretical assumption, with scripture, where Jesus makes such a claim, that any that commit sin will perish.

(Please correct me as I am recalling what points you were making while arguing your position.)

So then, what you believe and (would teach); is that a person who has been saved, that is to say sealed by the Spirit of Truth, if he sins (falls away), he loses his salvation (the free gift) and can never brought back to repentance, because he has put Christ to an open shame. (Heb 6:6)  

Or in other words;

This person, who was given eternal life by the Grace of God, whereby he will never perish by Jesus, forfeits this (free gift) of eternal life because the Evil One has been  able to pluck him, from the Fathers hand, seeing that this individual was snared in sin, the result being he can never be brought back to repentance.

If this individual can lose the eternal life Jesus spoke of, there is only one of two possible explanations, 1. He never had it, to begin with, or 2. He never lost it., if he obtained it at all.

The first explanation, is unbiblical, since it is a teaching which is in direct opposition to Jesus's own words. We call it HERESY.

And if you believe this HERESY, it is because you have a distorted understanding of the Gospel.

The Gospel of Christ teaches that the Grace of God (Gods undeserved love that never quits) produces eternal life that is grasped by Faith (Eph 2:8-10) in Jesus Christ's finished righteous works at Calvary's Cross, and Faith is not produced by oneself that no one should boast.

Then you post these verses, as if, they prove, your theory;

   
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

You really need to learn how to study the scriptures, you are taking this verse isolating it, and then using it out of context, Phillip, and the eleven, although chosen by Christ were still in unbelief; (sure they believed somethings about Jesus, but their faith was not the faith necessary for producing salvation, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit) none of them believed HIS WORDS until after Jesus rose from the grave,  ....(Jhn 2:16-22)

The very passage makes it plain, Phillip hadn't yet believed Jesus to the saving of his soul. Since Jesus said he would pray for those who believe in verse 12, for another comforter.
It is evident, no one had believed to this point, since Jesus never prayed this prayer for these.

What's the point you, are try making with the next passage??


Mark 12
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

And, then you give us this verses;

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What are you trying to prove by these verses??  I suppose you would teach, that water baptism is in view herein and it is what would bring on the indwelling of the Spirit, which obtains the gift and that they pricked their own hearts

Now you show your dishonesty, which explains, why you fail to understand scripture.

And Petro answers, "Nothing, God has done it all, there is nothing you need to do".
 

Please post the quote you attribute to me..above.  
Where did I give this answer anywhere.??  

and you called me a follower of  heretic doctrine. Now you are saying the exact same thing in that we "must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.".

You assume to much, aside from the statement you attribute to me, you state above;

"I've been saying all along that the individual must make the decision to come to the Lord"

You been assuming all along that the partakers, in Hebrews 6:4, were believers sealed by the Holy Gohst, just like you assume, that when Jesus stated;  

"If ye love me, keep my commandments.",

means that if you don't, Jesus will cause the gift to be taken away from those to whom he has given it to, all because you assume this is speaking about the law of Commandments.

You are presumptous, and think to highly of yourself,

Everyone who has received the Lord and  been sealed by the Holy Spirit, does not live to keep the law of Commandments, since we live unto another law, it is called the Law of Faith which is the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus (Rom 8:2)  (Rom 3:27-31); this is why we believe;

Rom 8
1  There is no condemnation them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I know I gave you this verse, once before.


There are many today, that believe they are one of the Lords sheep, when in fact they are goats, he will say to these in that day;
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:21-27)

And all because they trusted in there own abilities and works.  Imagine how great this deception, they thought they were known by Him simply because they assumed that He knew them, because they knew something about Him.  Amazing..

Don't assume anything..Tawhano.
 
By the way, I can see, part of your problem, it has to do with your slogan, signed; author unknown, if you believe this, it explains quite a bit, towards why, you cannot see, the point.
we have been discusing.

I guess you have never read Mat 16:26

The scriptures are plain to teach, that Jesus is the Captain of our salvation, and salvation has to do with our soul, I know of no true Christian which would agree with YOUR SLOGAN..

Blessings,

Petro

[worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him]

 posted by Tibby,
Petro, please except my humble apology. I wasn't very clear with the first argument. I was in a rush, and did not have time to read over it to see if everything was clear and correct. Anamimnesko is the Greek word that is translated in Remembrance in our bible. I hope that makes everything clearer for you now. It isn't anything obscure or mystic, it is Greek, the same Greek Jesus Spoke.

Chris,
I am sorry, I asked the question using the word irate, your disappoint seemed to be in my choice of quoting from thye Missions to Catholics as opposed to the Roman Catholics official New Advent encyclopedia website.
If you reread my post you will see, I stated, the  new dogma of "transubstantiation" in 1215, led to the new dogma of "adoration of the host (bread) 11 years later in 1226, for which their is no biblical basis, which agrees with what the catholic encyclopedia confirms, nothing is said concerning "transubstantiation" having no biblical foundation, for which there isn't either, but by adding one teaching upon another, the follwoing one confirms the preceding in the eyes of the faithfull, and then to them it matters not whether it is biblical.

Also, I was not irate. I apologies, again, if I can off that way. I believe seeing "Mission to Catholics" set something off in my head. Them, Jack Chick, and other so-called "Bible Christians" misinterpret the Roman Catholic Doctrine. Mind you, I am not ROMAN Catholic. I, after spend my first young years a Roman Catholic, and most all of my life a Charismatic, have recently joined a Catholic Denomination know as the Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC).

This is where I have to disagree with you, Jack Chick, has a good grasp as to what the Roman Catholic church teaches, and he exposes it for what it is; doctrinal teachings which lack biblical support and attributed to traditional teachings, it is a system of religious worship based on keeping people ignorant of biblical theology, while overwhelming them with a teaching designed to keep them in bondage to an institution, rather than setting them free from the prison house of sin, that thery might serve God, all the days of their lives, instead of introducing them to the freedoms proclaimed in the Gospel of Jesus Chris, they burdem them down with a teaching designed to keep them working and toiling for theis own salvation, and having done this all their lives, they are never sure, if they've done enough or all that is necessary.

The fact is, it is the Word of God that converteth the Soul, not any institution, nor its teachings.

This isn't talking about the real presence, but Perpetual Adoration. This is when members of a Parish, or other group, unite for a day of adoration before taking Communion. It would take much to long to explain here, do a web search for more details. No, there is no historic proof of this, you are correct. I don't see anything sinful about, it just another way to Worship God, but it isn't biblical at all. Just like using Pop music for Praise isn't biblical! Anyways, I do not see how your quote doesn't apply, because it isn't even talking about Communion or the real presence, only the pre-Eucharistic events Catholics sometimes hold.

I can't comment of what you have stated about perpetual adoration, since I don't have any idea what purpose it would serve, nor what it has to do with music, or anything else for that matter, especially when everyone is agreement, that , it has no historic evidence for it, just as there is for other dogmas, held in high esteem, within this institution.

However, when you say;  
"I don't see anything sinful about, it just another way to Worship God, but it isn't biblical at all."
It leaves me wondering, if you have ever read the verses which states;
Jhn 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It would seem to me, that anyone who has a desire to worship God, would at least do it, in "knowledge and truth", the Word of God tells us how to worship God in such a fashion,  worshipping in a away which is not  in knowledge, would not be true, and if it isn't true, how can it be biblical and if it isn't biblical, it has no value, in as much that it is not  according to the will of God.  And if this is so, it can be nothing other but, SIN.... So then,  [/b]worshipping[/b] makes no difference if one is willing to Not do it according with the word of God.
For instance, the second commandment, not only tells us, how we should worship, and what we should not worship, and the reasons for the consequences of worshipping,  not inaccordance with the will of God; this then, is the "knowledge" and the "truth" of what Gods will, is concerning worshipping things made by for the purpose of worshipping them.
Satan himself, in trying to deceive Jesus, said to him;
Mat 4
8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So according to Jesus, the Lord thy God is ONLY to be worshipped, and served.
Now, I know an have heard all the arguments, of what the Catholic church worships, an especially, how the words are twisted to be given other meanings to words, for instance; ADORATION, as in "adoration of the host" the word adoration , defined mean worship; Worship of the Host (bread).
What is sinfull about this is, that the host is not just a run of the mill, craker, that one can buy at a supermarket or corner 7-11, it is something that is made specifically for worship, even made with symbols and superscription on it; and this is what is contrary to the known will of God.
Many other argumenst will be placed to try and show that there is nothing wrong with this, by Catholics, when some one brings this up, exhausting one argument, another point will be raised, and it is a case, which will never be resolved, unless they are willing to believe and agree with what God says.  He says, image worship is idolatry, and the making of anything for the express purpose of worship is not to be done.  (Ex 20:4-5)
I trust this viewpoint will be of help to you

PS ******** I will have to think long and hard about your statement, concerning Jesus speaking Greek, we know for sure the OT was written in Hebrew, the Septuagint was a translation of the OT into Greek, made during the diaspora, but it was never used at Jerusalem, it seems it was very popular in Alexandria, so I think there might not be any truth to your statement, but thats neither here nor their, the words have been defined from long ago, and we can accept the definitions already made of them, and be leary of new defifnitions which try and define them by todays, modern languages.

Blesssings,

Petro

And know another generation, has arising who know not the Lord.

In God we Trust, but they in the coinned instrument.

Petro

And the word;

Communion which the Catholic church knows by;

Latin Vulgate:pronounced; communio sanctorum  means;participation of spiritual goods, in english.



Blessings,
Petro

[ill require it of him.]

Chris,

Since,you are going to live or die, for what you have done with will do, with every word that came out of the mouth of Jesus.

Why put your faith, in men, and the teachings of men, especially the tradition of dead men.  You don't know what they where (their traditions), yourself,

the fact is if your honest with yourself, you would at least confess, they (their traditions) have to be chewed, swallowed, regurgitated, and spoon fed to you, by your church.

The Holy Sirit knows nothing of what traditions they (Catholic church) teaches.

Deut 18
17  And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, ill require it of him.

Jesus is the prophet, spoken of herein, and he said;

Mat 24
Take heed that no man deceive you.

and again he said;

Jhn 14
26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What value is it to look for truth in all things, or to bring all things to remembrance whatsoever Jesus said, if we seek these elsewhere....



By the way, Eucharistia in the greek means, thankgiving, it does not have some mystic connotation or meaning to it.


Blessings,

Petro

[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA]

Posted by Tibby
The word in the Greek is anamimnesko.

Chris,

I have no idea, what word you are trying to define here.

It truly disturbed me that you choose to quote an argument by Missions to Catholics International Inc. They are both Fundamentalism and anti-catholic. They forsake all (even truth) for their cause, which is to discredit the Catholic belief system. If you want to talk about “mere men to support their own worldly agendas.” Then Missions to Catholics are the correct group to choose. Anyways, I had to address this. Pointing out you are quoting a biased group.

Chris,

I trust you are not disputing what the Council of Trent, cannonized concerning "Transubstantiation".

It sounds as thou you are irate because, I give you truthful, information, by quoting  a good mission organization, desiring to see, Catholics, come out bondage from the teachings of this  organization; would it make you feel better, if I had quoted the New Advent Catholic website, which is verbatim, concerning "adoration of the Host";

Well what can I say, but here it is: **Note the second paragraph; its verbatim,(although I may have left out one or two words)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA:  Perpetual Adoration
...Emmanuel", practically maintains the Perpetual Adoration among its ... The Catholic Encyclopedia,
Volume 1 Copyright  1907 by Robert...Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. ...
www.newadvent.org/cathen/o1152a.htm

It reads, as follows;

No trace of the existence of any such extra-liturgical cultus of the Blessed Sacrament can be found in the records of the early Church. Christian Lupus, indeed, argues that in the days of St. Ambrose and St. Augustine it was customary for the neophytes to adore, for eight days following their baptism, the Blessed Sacrament exposed, but no sound proof is adduced. It first appears in the later Middle Ages,

By the way, Missions to Catholics International, Inc, is a well known respected Christian organization, which exposes, the errors taught by the Catholic church, and is chaired by ex-catholic priests and laity, (whom the Lord has seen fit to save from this institution) bringing the Gospel of Christ, which sets people free from the gospel of works..

It is useless to debate, words which are defined by others, which do not have the same meaning as what scripture teach them to have; the word "remembrance" is precisely that, not some other obscure mystic word.

Blessings,

Petro

[leqach]

author  Tawhano link=board=6;threadid=150;start=0#msg2634 date=1051892217]
leqach {leh'-kakh}
1) learning, teaching, insight
a) instruction (obj)
b) teaching (thing taught)
1) teaching-power
2) persuasiveness

didache {did-akh-ay'}
1) teaching
a) that which is taught
b) doctrine, teaching, concerning something
2) the act of teaching, instruction
a) in religious assemblies of the Christians, to speak in the way of teaching, in distinction from other modes of speaking in public
 

Johnthe Baptist, Tawhano, and others,

While all that has been said, to this point may be true.

It is not what is in view herein, at 2Jhn1:9.

While it is true, the doctrine of Christ may be interpreted as "his teachings", it also, means "the teaching concerning Him", and this is what the word focuses on in the passage of scripture; which when revealed by the Spirit of truth, the natural man, is able to confess Him as The Christ the Son of the Living God, as Simon Peter did, at Mat 16:16.

The basis for the doctrine of Christ is found in the book
of:

Deut 18,   Moses speaking;
17  And the LORD said unto me, ......................
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

by Tahano,

The doctrine is the teachings of Christ, the commandment he gave that all who believe on him should do.

Both are true, but the unlearned, focus on one aspect and cannot see the full picture, because they have already been deceived and embrace their brand of doctrinal theology, which rejects the very words of Jesus.

One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

This is the "doctrine of Christ"

So then, in the passage in question, 2 Jhn 1, at verse 7, we read;

7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So, among the Christian church, there are those who teach and have taught deception from the begining, and Jesus warned his disciples

"Take heed that no man deceive you.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
"(Mat 24:4-5)

and, this is a reality today, as many are being and have been deceived by these and willingly follow them.

In the garden, the serpent said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  (Gen3:4-5)

So false teachers, have come into the church teaching contrary to what Jesus taught, deceiving many;

Jhn 10
25  ........ I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

So, the same serpent who was present at God's garden, has spoken to these christians, who are deceived and teach contrary to Jesus's own words, and said, to them;

"ye shall surely die!" For God knoweth that the day you sin, you shall perish, there is no eternal life for you.

Is not this the teaching you espouse, and adhere to??

OF COURSE IT IS; it is a teaching straight out of the pit, which you believe to be the truth.

So, I ask you, who has really been deceived??

Jesus said;

Jhn 8
42  .... If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43  Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

I share the word with you, that you might recover yourselves, from the great deceiver, whos, teachings you seem to listen and embrace,  more than the words of the Savior, and all while claiming to know Jesus.

When the "doctrine of Christ " is seen in the its right perspective, one can then understand, that life and death hang on every word Jesus spoke.

Blessings,

Petro

[this do in remembrance of me.]

Greetings Tibby,

If your question is asking the question seeking an answer from a theological doctrinal  perspective of scripture, the answer to your question would be "remembrance"based on the words of Jesus, himself, on the other hand, if one embraces tradition, over scriptural teaching as the basis for truth, then this truth, is going to be found elsewhere.

Jesus, gave us the way we ought to understand the significance of partaking of the bread and wine, known today as the Lords supper, the day preceding His death and crucifixion.

So it is essential to read this and understand it in the light of what He said, concerning it, The Gospels give us the account from each of the writers accounts, their words hold more weight than any other sources, as they were in attendance at this Passover Feast, and have left us a written record , of the exact words spoken by the Savior, coinfirmed to us by the Apostle Paul, who was not present, yet he states, that the Lord revealed this to him. (1 Cor 11).

Mat 26:20-29, Mark 14:18-25, do not eloborate, how we are to understand the passage.


However, the passage as found in Luke 22;  sheds some light on the matter;

15  And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21  But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22  And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23  And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
24  And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25  And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29  And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note, verse 19, He says "this do in remembrance of me"

And finally at 1 Cor 11, Paul the Apostle recounts what he claims wqas revealed to him, by Jesus, (vs 23)

18  For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19  For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20  When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21  For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22  What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

What is glaringly obvious concerning these scriptures, is that, when Jesus said "this is my body" or "blood" He did not change the substance AND,  he mentioned nothing concerning adoration of either of these elements , but,  explained that HE (Jesus) is the one represented by the Passover Bread and Wine.

 Just as the Old Testament Passover was a remembrance, so is the Lord's Supper (Communion) until He comes.  

Transubtantition as taught by the institution which introduced it as a doctrinal teaching, and it,  ........................ seriously departs from the literal sense of scriptural teaching.

As you can see,  there is   absolutely NO basis for any transubstantition teaching according to the scriptures which are the basis for communion , at least not in accordance with what Jesus said, and the Apostle taught.

A search of the history of what transubstantition is, and what it represents, reveals to any serious bible student, who wants to know the truth concerning this teaching, that it was introduced by the Roman Catholic church in 1215 A.D., when the Council of Trent introduced it in Session XIII, as Cannon 4.

Eleven years later, this was followed by a teaching known today as "Adoration of the Host" introduced in 1226 A.D.  As;

 "The practice of exposing the Host (bread) for adoration was started by Bishop Pierre de Corbie in celebration of the victory of Louis VII over the Albigenses. The display attracted great hordes who carried on the adoration by day and night an act subsquently approved by the Pope himself. (**See Ref source below)


And thus you have a teaching for which there is no scriptural foundation whatsoever.

In fact the Roman Catholic church admits that there is;

Quote:

"No trace of existence of any such extraliturgical cultus of the blessed Sacrament can be found in the records of the early Church.  It first appears in the later Middle Ages."

**Ref: (Catholic Encyclopedia I, "Perpetual Adoration" P. 153 (from the pamphlet "The Split between Roman Catholicism and Christ" published by; Missions to Catholics International Inc.  Pg 12)



Blessings

Petro