Faith and Works ?

[Reba]

Amen

[musicllover]

Amen

A wome of few words....... I've done this before so its an old joke....... AMEN and AMEN and AMEN......cause I like to talk alot..

[musicllover]

S.S.:
Remember that God never made any of the 10 commandments, as a yoke of bondage....but as the Law of Liberty, (James 2:10-12).

The law is not bondage if none are transgressed. Transgression is sin and therein is the bondage. Christ frees all who would come from such. This is the law of liberty.

If one is perfect and does not sin that one is free and under the law of liberty already, however all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, therefore all are yoked in bondage, until they come to Christ. Then freedom from sin through Christ, the law of liberty, the same as the one who would be perfect and free by keeping all the law.

ollie

YA, its like Ollie said   (I'm standing in my sand box now) so I'll add this.
Back up a few scripture to verse 8 (James 2:10-12) then you have the whole idea.
    James 2:8-12 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, you shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well, 9) but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10) For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all..........

So again, asking Silver do you not sin at ALL, do you keep the whole law, do you never stumble? Or Are you being partial, such as the scripture tells not to do in James 2:4 and verse 8, being partial is a SIN. Is this partiality when you say worship is on SAT and any other way will cause you to go to hell? THose who live under the law must keep the law, with out compromise...your saying you as good a Jesus perfect then, why do you need Jesus?
      Jesus come to fullfill the law, He is the only man alive that did keep the law, uncompromised, and perfect, no stumbling......he then gave us the new law (if you must call it that) The law of Grace. Thru him ONLY can we have a way into Heaven, worship on Sat, Sun or when ever we must believe and call on Jesus.
    The indocrtrinization of "Sat worhsip only" is a bondage friend, Jesus doesn't require anything but to follow him, believe in him, confess him as your Lord and Savior. Your doing that so (I assume), why do you insist on impling others are going to hell?
  What christian value does this have? IF it were the way you believe (and correct me on this please) only 144,000 are getting into heaven anyway...I kinda figure my chances of getting into Heaven with that belief would be ZZZZIPPP after a few century or so.
    What of the 144,001 person? Is there a waiting list for someone who stumbles and falls away?  
   I have stumbled, I have fallen, that would mean by your teaching that I can't get into heaven, because I worship on Sun. and I haven't kept the commandments

Another has taken my place, my name is scratched off the waiting list. Soooo is it too late for me?

No
because the I believe the one who took my place is Jesus.

if I get to Heaven first I'll find us a nice spot for our picnic.... Oh ya, you can't pretend I'm not there, that would just be rude...
       

[Silver Surfer]

There's widespread confusion in regard to Biblical Law and its relevance to the Christian life. Indeed Christians who willingly submit to it are viewed as teaching salvation by works. Let it be known that we are not saved by our works - but by the grace of God. But does that excuse us from keeping the law of God?

The Apostle Paul (Romans 8:1-11) compares those 'in the flesh' and those 'in the Spirit'; that is, those who are unconverted and those who are converted. He states (v. 7) "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God". That is, the unconverted mind is 'fleshly', hostile to God - is not in subjection to God's laws.

Do you realize what the apostle is telling us? The converted mind is subject to the law of God. With this in mind, let's read and understand Rom. 1:8. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit". If we are in the Spirit, we will walk in subjection to the law of God and therefore will have no condemnation.

It must be noted, however, that a distinction is made between those who are subject to the law of God and those who are not - those who are walking according to the Spirit and those who are walking according to the flesh. Paul then tells us that God sent His Son because of our weaknesses so that the "righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" Romans 8:3-4, Notice again that Paul emphasizes a difference between those who walk in subjection to the law of God and those who do not. We cannot earn our salvation, but rather are saved by faith. Nevertheless, we must understand that "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" James 2:17.

The so-called 'old covenant' was replaced. Why? The reason is explained in Hebrews 10:8, 10 where we're told, "Because finding fault with them I will make a new covenant". God found fault with the people, not with His own laws. Because the people would not obey His laws, He said that He would establish a new covenant, one in which He would "put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts".

We all fall short of keeping the law perfectly. All too often we sin. That's why we can only be saved by God's grace and not by the law, not by our own righteousness acts, but by the righteousness of Christ. When we are repentant God imputes to us the perfect righteousness of His Son, our Saviour.

Jesus Christ is our mediator - and our example. He was able to overcome, and with his Spirit in us we can overcome also, if we are willing to put forth the effort.

Satan is the deceiver of the whole world and he has deceived some into thinking that it is not necessary to keep the laws of God. Don't ever be lured into believing this. Prophecy in Revelation 13:17 says, "The dragon [Satan] was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Why do you think that the dragon will be angry with the woman? Because Satan wants to deceive the whole world.

Some believe that we only need faith in Christ. Others seek salvation only by keeping the commandments. We need both. The inspired Scriptures tell us, James 2:14, 20 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? O foolish man ...faith without works is dead" .

It is possible to have our name blotted out of the Book of Life. Whoever overcomes will not have his name removed Rev. 3:5. We are not saved because of our works, but by God's mercy, through grace. But because of our love for God and of our faith in Him, we firmly establish God's laws in our life Romans 3:31

John wrote: "He who says 'I know him' and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. He who says he abides in him also himself also to walk just as he walked" I John 2:46. Don't be deceived by those who claim God's Law is 'done away'.

How did Christ walk? He by God's grace, and by staying close to the Father in prayer "with vehement cries and tears" Hebrews 5:7, led an unblemished life. He never once transgressed the divine law.

It's really nice to see someone with a balanced view regarding the relationship between grace and the Law of God.

[oneBook]

DreamWeaver, does BEP agree with your stance on the law?

I would say this represents my position, but have had some debate with BEP on some issues, and from my understanding, he would not agree (maybe I didn't understand him).

Maybe some clarification is in order (BEP if you're listening).
Let me state my position clearly-
I agree that salvation is by grace/faith, not works.

My statements concerning the law are under the context of the life of the redeemed, not the entrance requirements of the unsaved.

I would not agree with statements made by SilverSurfer to the effect that those who keep Sunday will go to hell.
God is the righteous judge, and can make His servants stand (Rom. 14:3-4)

I had a friend that was at a conference in the Philippines about the law in relation to the believer, and the first question he got from the pastors he was talking to (those opposed to the teaching of God's law in the books of Moses) was - "If I don't keep the Sabbath, am I sinning?"

This is the heart of the Sabbath debate, since when I say I think we should keep the Sabbath (not for salvation, but out of love/obedience) then in the mind of the sunday observing Christian that translates to me telling them that they (and all the rest of the mainstream Christian church) are not in line with God, and sinning.

I am not trying to point out sin but to demonstrate that the Sabbath is our heritage and a delight  as delineated in Isa. 56.  This passage shows that for one, gentiles can be grafted in, and two, the sign of our covenant relationship is the same one God gave to Israel!  This passage is NOT saying "if you keep the Sabbath - go to heaven", but that it is a part of the covenant between God and all His people.

"Our heritage?" you may ask, "I'm not Jewish".  However the Sabbath is not Jewish either, and was instituted at creation.
In one post, I noticed that one person pointed out that it was not commanded in Gen. and that is true, the terminology is not a command.  However the bottom line is that the Sabbath is the first thing in all of creation that God sanctified.  Once God speaks, His word is permanent, and the day cannot be un-sanctified.

At the very least, a sunday Christian must admit that God considers that day sanctified even if they choose not to sanctify it.  Now if they believe that Israel is a separate entity from the gentiles, and that only Israel is commanded to keep the Sabbath, then they would be (from their viewpoint) in a position where they were not commanded to keep the Sabbath (since they are not part of Israel), but that God still considers it sanctified.  A good question to ask here is - "if God considers the day holy, shouldn't we?"

Secondly, if a sunday Christian did believe they are part of Israel by engrafting (Rom. 11), then they would have to conclude that they were living in sin since the command would now apply to them.  If they don't change their action to reflect their conviction, then they would have to rely on the fact that Jesus' sacrifice would atone for their sin.  This has obvious problems, the foremost being intentional sin and atonement.

I believe that although many Christians may not keep Sabbath, they will not be excluded from the Kingdom for that reason.  It would be their heart intention that God will judge, and that is what I was trying to get at above. I believe most Christians live by their convictions, and I believe even if they are mistaken about the Sabbath, that God will accept them and correct them Himself.

Ollie posted about the burden of the Law, and while I agree that sin is a burden that is created by transgressing the law, the burden of the law that Jesus identified was the man made regulations of the sages of that time-

Matthew 23:1-12
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger."

This informs us to the meaning of this passage-

Acts 10:28
        28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."

God wasn't concerned that Peter still wasn't eating pork, but wanted Peter to realize that although the sages made a law (not in God's law) that Jews and Gentiles are to stay separate, even if the gentiles in question are observing the law as we know from historical sources that the "God fearers" did. Even if they were eating kosher and attended your synagogue, a Jew was not allowed to fellowship with them until they were circumcised.  God's point was that he determines who is in Israel, and who isn't, not the sages.

This also makes sense of the verse in Acts where James talks of the law as a burden neither we nor our fathers could bear-

Acts 15:10
        10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"

Putting a gentile through circumcision would also mean that they would have to obey all rabbinic law (the burden to heavy to bear) since they would be placed under the authority of the Sanhedrin.  Even Rome recognized their authority, and while Romans looked down on converts to Judaism, they did still recognize the authority of the Sanhedrin over that person.  Paul however was convinced that the gentiles should not be exposed to that burden, and the council agreed.  They only imposed restrictions on activities relating to idolatry (sexual fornication, strangled animal meat, ingesting blood, and any idol related practice).

This gets to the very heart of the Law vs. Grace debate since the Law that is opposed to grace is not God's law, but the laws that the sages created that are opposed to God's Grace.  The giving of the law to Israel was an act of grace in and of itself.

Does this in any way demean the sacrifice of our Master and Lord? Not at all, rather I believe that the law teaches us to live as He lived. The law teaches us what the Messiah would do, and how we would recognize Him.

Earlier I posted a statement that I was sure would be challenged, but heard nothing back.  It was something to this effect-

"there are no covenants made anywhere in Scripture (NT/OT) with anyone but Israel, and there is no salvation for anyone outside of a covenant"

 I was curious if anyone knows of a place where there is a covenant made with anyone except Israel?  I've been looking....
Even the New Covenant in Hebrews / Jer. 31 is made with Israel....

I consider each sunday Christian an Israelite brother (not to be confused with a Jew) who does keep most of the law -
Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, strength (Deut. 6:4)
Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
9 of the 10 commandments (Ex. 20)
No homosexuality (Lev. 20:13)

In everyday life, the only difference someone would see between me and them is that I speak positively about God's law, and do some of the smaller laws (kosher/fringes), and sanctify the Sabbath.

Out of all of these differences, the Sabbath was the only one that had a death penalty attached to it.  I say this not because I think they should be put to death (although we all deserve that), but because I want to point out how important it was to God.  This is why I think of all things law related, the Sabbath is the starting place on restoring the missing law and our missing heritage.

If you have a problem with these commands, then you should have a problem with baptism as well since it is the same type of command- not done for salvation, but as a covenant sign.  Responses?  This post has a some Sabbath arguments as BEP directed me to this forum to continue a thread from another forum.

[musicllover]

I am not trying to point out sin but to demonstrate that the Sabbath is our heritage and a delight  as delineated in Isa. 56.  This passage shows that for one, gentiles can be grafted in, and two, the sign of our covenant relationship is the same one God gave to Israel!  This passage is NOT saying "if you keep the Sabbath - go to heaven", but that it is a part of the covenant between God and all His people.

"Our heritage?" you may ask, "I'm not Jewish".  However the Sabbath is not Jewish either, and was instituted at creation.
In one post, I noticed that one person pointed out that it was not commanded in Gen. and that is true, the terminology is not a command.  However the bottom line is that the Sabbath is the first thing in all of creation that God sanctified.  Once God speaks, His word is permanent, and the day cannot be un-sanctified.

Onebook,
            Just following along with what you've written and finding it interesting. I do have one question, and find it very inlightening when you think about the idea of a Sabbath being commanded in so many words in Gen. We know that God created for six days and he rested......from my previous post that Silver hasn't answered yet I understand that the first day of the week is Sunday, please read my previous post. Is the Sabbath mentioned in Gen a Sat or is this a day that man picked somewhere along the way?
      I do not believe I am going anywhere but to Heaven because I choice to worship on Sunday, and feel those who judge those that do are making a grave mistake and will find themselves at the back of the line (scriptural based opinion but don't know the ref off hand) But that doesn't keep those from going to Heaven either. So I'm not asking becuase this will validate anything that Silver might believe but simply out of curiousity. Is there any scripture to tell us what the first day of creation was? When God called it finished and he rested do we really know what day that was? Is man putting God in a box when they say the he rested on Sat, so therefore we HAVE to worhsip on Sat.
     Blessings,
musicllover

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to OneBook,

My stance on the Sabbath is very simple, for Christians - it is 24 hours a day - 7 days a week. I worship, pray, and study the Holy Bible every day. In terms of rest, I rest in Jesus Christ 24/7. Jesus is in my heart and I am in Jesus. HE is LORD OVER ALL DAYS - not just one.

Bluntly, the Sabbath is a Jewish ritual under the Law. It had many purposes for Israel, and it still does for the Jews who reject Jesus Christ as Very God, Lord and Saviour. Those who say that they keep the Sabbath don't know what it is or how to keep it under the Law. I've never met a Sabbath keeper that keeps the Sabbath. In fact, I've never met a self-proclaimed Sabbath keeper who could even explain what the Sabbath is. I don't say any of this to be critical at all - just the opposite. The Sabbath has absolutely nothing to do with Salvation or pleasing God. The GIFT of Jesus Christ on the CROSS is the only perfect sacrifice, and we can now worship, pray, and fellowship in HIS WORD 24/7.

Jesus Christ is my Sabbath. I have no problem at all with folks who wish to worship on Saturday, Wednesday, Monday, etc. If they have Jesus Christ in their hearts, it doesn't matter which day of the week someone worships. Realistically, a mature Christian worships, prays, and studies the Holy Bible every day. I do have a big problem with someone condemning others to hell because of the day they go to church. Here's a hint that will be shown in more detail about the Sabbath:  violation of the Sabbath was a death penalty FOR ISRAEL - UNDER THE LAW. Jesus Christ paid that death penalty, but that is just the beginning of PRECIOUS GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.

It is quite Biblical and correct for a Christian to say that Jesus Christ is my Sabbath 7 days a week - not one.

Love in Christ,
Tom

[Shammu]

So far Silver Surfer, ad oneBook have missed my point.

Indeed Christians who willingly submit to it are viewed as teaching salvation by works. Let it be known that we are not saved by our works - but by the grace of God. But does that excuse us from keeping the law of God?

The so-called 'old covenant' was replaced. Why? The reason is explained in Hebrews 10:8, 10 where we're told, "Because finding fault with them I will make a new covenant". God found fault with the people, not with His own laws. Because the people would not obey His laws, He said that He would establish a new covenant, one in which He would "put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts".

We all fall short of keeping the law perfectly. All too often we sin. That's why we can only be saved by God's grace and not by the law, not by our own righteousness acts, but by the righteousness of Christ. When we are repentant God imputes to us the perfect righteousness of His Son, our Saviour.

Jesus Christ is our mediator - and our example. He was able to overcome, and with his Spirit in us we can overcome also, if we are willing to put forth the effort.

[oneBook]

Peace and blessings musicllover,

A good question, and for the answer, we have to go a bit into the original language (Hebrew).

So in the account in Gen., the days are identified as day one, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, and seventh day.  In Hebrew - yom echad, yom sheni, yom shlishi, yom revi'i, yom chamishi, yom shishi, and yom shevi'i.

An interesting side note- the numbering on the first day is cardinal, and the rest of the days ordinal.  I just think it is interesting.

In the Hebrew calendar, they didn't have names of the week other than the numbers.  From Genesis to the Gospels, and even to this day, the Hebrews use the same designations for the days of the week in their calendar.

How do we know that it wasn't changed somewhere in between? Maybe the Jews are keeping the wrong day?  Another related question will shed light on this- how do we know that the Old Testament and New Testament weren't botched or corrupted?  God entrusted the Scriptures to Israel as we see in Rom. 3:1-2.
1 Then what advantage F46 has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they R106 were entrusted with the oracles R107 of God.

So God entrusted them with Scripture, so also he entrusted them with the Sabbath.  Jesus would have corrected them if they had it wrong, but He, being the Lord of the Sabbath (the originator), did not dispute it, but disputed how it should be kept.  It is instructive to note that the issues Jesus argues with them are not mentioned in the Biblical law (picking food, healing, etc...), but were purely traditions of the elders.  Also, they are usually criticizing Jesus' disciples, and not him (except for the healing).

Does that answer your question, or give you a whole bunch more?

God Bless,
Onebook

[musicllover]

In the Hebrew calendar, they didn't have names of the week other than the numbers.  From Genesis to the Gospels, and even to this day, the Hebrews use the same designations for the days of the week in their calendar.

How do we know that it wasn't changed somewhere in between? Maybe the Jews are keeping the wrong day?  Another related question will shed light on this- how do we know that the Old Testament and New Testament weren't botched or corrupted?  God entrusted the Scriptures to Israel as we see in Rom. 3:1-2.
1 Then what advantage F46 has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they R106 were entrusted with the oracles R107 of God.

So God entrusted them with Scripture, so also he entrusted them with the Sabbath.  Jesus would have corrected them if they had it wrong, but He, being the Lord of the Sabbath (the originator), did not dispute it, but disputed how it should be kept.  It is instructive to note that the issues Jesus argues with them are not mentioned in the Biblical law (picking food, healing, etc...), but were purely traditions of the elders.  Also, they are usually criticizing Jesus' disciples, and not him (except for the healing).

One Book,
             I believe that the scritpures are with out error, no matter the tranilation, God's word is for every true. But what you've wrote here is also causing me to wonder just where SATURDAY came into the mix? If the Hebrew text have no names for the days of the week, then the Hebrew elders are also the ones that dictated which day of the week to worship on.....and then tried to enforce that on all believers, much like the debate that circumsion caused.
    Yes he entrust the Hebrew people with the keeping of his word, records, and he gave Adam the job of naming the animals.....so why didn't he name the sabbath too.....Do you see what I am gettting at. If Sat was the deignated day, then its seems it would have been written as such. There is no "SET" day for the Sabbath, simply we are told to keep the  sabbath.
      So aside from the quack relegions that want to say that the Sabbath is Sat and those who don't worship on Sat are going to hell, there truly isn't, and never has been a day that has been appointed by God, or set in scriptures as a Sabbath......So couldn't it be said the Sabbath is the day you choice to worship on?   I know this is almost knit picking, but if you have a group of people such as Christians, then if that group worships on any day of the week they are still keeping a commandment to keep the sabbath.
    I would also like your opinion on the last post of mine to Silver,  that I will say again he still has NOT ANSWERED....., if you need for me I can copy and bump it up forward for you. But there are scriptures to say that Christian worship on the first day of the week, which definatly goes along with  Hebrew text  and practice of not naming days but simply given them a number. Somewhere all the way someone give them Mon.....thru Sunday names. As we well know man could tear up an anvil in a sandpile. (old saying my dad used to tell us kids  ) Christ simply want our love, and worship I really don't think it had anything to do with LETTING the Hebrews just do it, God didn't have a prefrence to the day just as you said to the how.

OK off to write an 3 page report.....get this on STD's. OOOOOHHHHH in Earnst (Jim Varney) fashion.....
musicllover

[oneBook]

to musicllover-
sorry, I forgot to remove the footnotes (R##) from the Romans text (doh!)

To DreamWeaver-
I guess I did, but I agree with what you wrote, so the difference in understanding must be in definition of terms,  and interpretative tradition/hermeneutics.

The so-called 'old covenant' was replaced. Why? The reason is explained in Hebrews 10:8, 10 where we're told, "Because finding fault with them I will make a new covenant". God found fault with the people, not with His own laws. Because the people would not obey His laws, He said that He would establish a new covenant, one in which He would "put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts".

I have too often ran into people who appear to believe that the problem was God's law, so this was nice to hear that someone was paying attention to the text and saw the problem was with the people.  You are quite right that we cannot live up to God's righteousness and so He imputes it to us through His Son, but does that mean that we don't attempt to live righteously?  Besides, in the law, it symbolically teaches us that God will atone for our sin (in the sacrifice). If the law is God's standard of righteousness, then we should fulfill it (to the best of our ability) and consider it our duty, not that we are working to earn a reward as in Lu. 17:7-10-

7 "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come immediately and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not say to him, `Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? 9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, `We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.' "

This takes humility, and we must constantly realize that God owns us.
When you said at the end of your post "and with his Spirit in us we can overcome also, if we are willing to put forth the effort.", what are we putting forth effort to do?  I know we don't put forth effort to be saved, but we do serve God and that takes effort.  This is consistent with Eph 2:8-10-

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The last part (verse 10) is not memorized by many, but is our focus once we have been saved.  We have been saved FOR good works, not BY them. I think this is in agreement with your point of view (so far).

Sometimes as Christians, we get hung up on the beginner stuff (salvation and turning from dead works), not that we shouldn't remember those from time to time, but as Hebrews states, we need to move on to more mature subjects-
Heb. 6:1-8

1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

One question I have is- what are the "washings" (note it is plural)?  I think I am conversant in the other subjects, but if I don't have a handle on this beginner subject, doesn't that show a deficiency in the teaching I have received in the Church?  Do you know what the "washings" are?

So, I think our departure is how we live (to some degree).
Obviously, you agree, I take it that we should live out these-
Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, strength (Deut. 6:4)
Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
9 of the 10 commandments (Ex. 20)
No homosexuality (Lev. 20:13)

Please let me know if my assessment is way off.
Do you consider these to be living out the good deeds God prepared in advance for us to do?

What are the particulars of loving God and my neighbor?  Is it the warm, fuzzy feeling I get when I sing to God, or pray?  I don't always get them, but is that love?
I would say that is a side effect of love, but love itself must manifest itself by obedience wouldn't you agree?
We mostly differ on what to obey-
Just the commands we find in the NT (which are re-iterated from the OT)
-or-
All the commands we find in the Bible.

I think when it comes down to it, this difference is due to dispensationalism, which I don't subscribe to.  Now I know from reading many posts here that you consider that without dispensationalism, you can't get to the truth in the Bible, but you do have to admit that it is a derived interpretive tradition, and it is not based on a literal text.  Not that interpretative tradition is bad, it can help us see things sometimes, or make sense of something that didn't make sense before, but it can also cause us not to see what the text is saying.  Interpretative tradition is like having glasses that filter out out some things and bring other things into focus.  But I think from time to time, we need to look at the text and remove all our traditions, and use the historical, grammatical context to illuminate the text.

One last thing I would like to add is that I don't subscribe to systematic theology either.  I think that we need to view Scriptures in as an open system, not a closed system.  This means that when we find verses that don't seem to jive, we don't have to make up an explanation (we should try to find one), but just leave them in tension.  Especially where it involves God's nature, since this issue has caused so many splits, cults, etc.  Notice in 1st century Judaism, they believed the Messiah would be divine, but there was never an argument recorded until quite some time after the NT.  While I don't subscribe to it, I do believe that it can be used as a technique to study, but we have to set it aside sometimes to make sure that we aren't putting meaning into the text that is not there.

So now you know more of my position, I would like to hear clarification on yours, and also feedback on my understanding of your position.

Peace and blessings brother-
Onebook

[Jemidon2004]

hey music, does this mean i can play in the sandbox too? cause if not i'll go build my own sandbox! Just pickin!

God Bless,
Joshua  

[Reba]

hey music, does this mean i can play in the sandbox too? cause if not i'll go build my own sandbox! Just pickin!

God Bless,
Joshua  

KIDS[/size]


 

[musicllover]

hey music, does this mean i can play in the sandbox too? cause if not i'll go build my own sandbox! Just pickin!

God Bless,
Joshua  

Joshua,
         Sure you can play in my sand box, but you have to play nice, don't throw sand and make sure your kitty don't come over at night....... ... and you have to be asked to help before you tear up someone elses anvil.  
musicllover

[ollie]

Oklahoma Howdy to OneBook,

My stance on the Sabbath is very simple, for Christians - it is 24 hours a day - 7 days a week. I worship, pray, and study the Holy Bible every day. In terms of rest, I rest in Jesus Christ 24/7. Jesus is in my heart and I am in Jesus. HE is LORD OVER ALL DAYS - not just one.

Bluntly, the Sabbath is a Jewish ritual under the Law. It had many purposes for Israel, and it still does for the Jews who reject Jesus Christ as Very God, Lord and Saviour. Those who say that they keep the Sabbath don't know what it is or how to keep it under the Law. I've never met a Sabbath keeper that keeps the Sabbath. In fact, I've never met a self-proclaimed Sabbath keeper who could even explain what the Sabbath is. I don't say any of this to be critical at all - just the opposite. The Sabbath has absolutely nothing to do with Salvation or pleasing God. The GIFT of Jesus Christ on the CROSS is the only perfect sacrifice, and we can now worship, pray, and fellowship in HIS WORD 24/7.

Jesus Christ is my Sabbath. I have no problem at all with folks who wish to worship on Saturday, Wednesday, Monday, etc. If they have Jesus Christ in their hearts, it doesn't matter which day of the week someone worships. Realistically, a mature Christian worships, prays, and studies the Holy Bible every day. I do have a big problem with someone condemning others to hell because of the day they go to church. Here's a hint that will be shown in more detail about the Sabbath:  violation of the Sabbath was a death penalty FOR ISRAEL - UNDER THE LAW. Jesus Christ paid that death penalty, but that is just the beginning of PRECIOUS GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.

It is quite Biblical and correct for a Christian to say that Jesus Christ is my Sabbath 7 days a week - not one.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Yes.

 Genesis 2:2.  "And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; amd he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
 3.  And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. "

Matthew 11:28.  "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
 29.  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
 30.  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Hebrews 3:7.  :Wherefore, even as the Holy Spirit saith, To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
 8.  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, Like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness,
 9.  Where your fathers tried me by proving me, And saw my works forty years.
 10.  Wherefore I was displeased with this generation, And said, They do always err in their heart: But they did not know my ways;
 11.  As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
 12.  Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:
 13.  but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:
 14.  for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:
 15.  while it is said, To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
 16.  For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?
 17.  And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
 18.  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
 19.  And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
"

  Hebrews 4:1.  "Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
 2.  For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.
 3.  For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
 4. For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;
 5.  and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
 6.  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,
 7.  he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before), To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.
 8.  For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.
 9.  There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
 10.  For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.
 11.  Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
 12.  For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 13.  And there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
 14.  Having then a great high priest, who hath passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
 15.  For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 16.  Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need."

The Sabbath is today, day by day for those that hearken unto His voice with obedience and harden not their hearts.

Some verses on the rest for God's faithful. If they have already been posted. Perhaps they are needed again.

ollie