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    "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). There are many in the Christian world who claim that all that is necessary to salvation is to have faith; works are nothing, faith is the only essential. But God's Word tells us that faith without works is dead, being alone. Many refuse to obey God's commandments, yet they make a great deal of faith. But faith must have a foundation.  {FW 47.1}
     God's promises are all made upon conditions. If we do His will, if we walk in truth, then we may ask what we will, and it shall be done unto us. While we earnestly endeavor to be obedient, God will hear our petitions; but He will not bless us in disobedience. If we choose to disobey His commandments, we may cry, "Faith, faith, only have faith," and the response will come back from the sure Word of God, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). Such faith will only be as sounding brass and as a tinkling cymbal. In order to have the benefits of God's grace we must do our part; we must faithfully work and bring forth fruits meet for repentance.  {FW 47.2}
     We are workers together with God. You are not to sit in indolence, waiting for some great occasion, in order to do a great work for the Master. You are not to neglect the duty that lies directly in your pathway, but you are to improve the little opportunities that open around you. . . .

 We are saved by faith and rewarded according to our works.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

 Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Bronzesnake

Silver Surfer,

Are you cutting and pasting from Prophetess Ellen G. Whites volumes? If so, they are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Bible, and we are not interested. They represent a gross distortion to the Holy Bible. Please read the forum rules.

By the way, I believe very strongly in the value of good works done on the part of Christians. They make our JOY IN JESUS MORE FULL. Go to the Scripture references, not Ellen G. White references, and read them in context.

The works that make Salvation possible were completed by Jesus Christ on the CROSS. My good works as a Christian don't add anything to HIS completed work. My good works are plain and simple - my appreciation of the completed work of Jesus Christ, my love of Jesus Christ, and my joy that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour. Good works done as a duty or done because someone feels they must be done are burned up. God does not appreciate works done as a duty or a burden. They are only good works if they are done in love and appreciation to our Lord and Saviour. They certainly don't lead to Salvation or maintain Salvation.

If you attach bondage, duty, and must to works, they are the vanity of man, worthless, and burned up. The opposite is what God wants - done in JOY, LOVE, and APPRECIATION to our Lord and Saviour. If our hearts are right in our good works, OUR JOY IN JESUS WILL BE MORE FULL. Look in your Bible Scripture references for "that your joy may be more full", and you will understand what God wants from HIS children. Use the Holy Bible, not Ellen G. White.

Tom

Silver Surfer, God's one and only remedy for sin is Christ?  (1Cor. 3:11)

<:)))><

Silver Surfer,

You might agree that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY for Salvation. I really don't know about you, but I'm 100% certain that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY!

What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? Please list them.

Let me know if you don't have a clue and I'll list them for you.

Tom

Silver Surfer,

You didn't list the Commandments of Jesus Christ, and I didn't think that you would or could. I'll list them for you with Scripture, Chapter, and Verse in a message I will post later today.

Your overall problem appears to be works and the law, Israel confused with the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, and denial of the purpose and meaning of the CROSS.

I plan to treat you like a Brother in Christ and help you with the TRUTH. In the meantime, I'll repost a post for your thought and study while you are waiting.

Tom

Repost:

God's Grace - Our Works - Part 1

This is a little mini-study I prepared on Romans 11:6. The focus of the study is on "GOD'S GRACE" and "OUR WORKS". As usual, I have no desire to debate this topic. I would simply ask that you read this with an open mind and heart. If you reach a different conclusion, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

King James Version
Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Amplified Bible Version
Romans 11:6  But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless].

The key words in this Scripture are "grace" and "works".

G5485 (Grace)
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Note on Grace:  Scores of other Scriptures clearly indicate that unmerited favor and a gift that is not deserved or earned is the most appropriate definition of "grace" in Romans 11:6 and many other precious portions of Scripture.

G2041 (Work)
From e?´??? ergo¯ (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
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Compare:

2 Timothy 1:6  Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2 Timothy 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:8  Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Timothy 1:10  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Romans 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Continued....................Part 2

Repost:

God's Grace - Our Works - Part 2

1 Corinthians 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The above and many other precious portions of Scripture clearly prove that the Grace of God is a GIFT, one that can never be deserved, earned, or paid for on the installment plan. God's GIFT is not an extension of credit that must be either paid for or returned. The full payment was made at THE CROSS. Any man who thinks that he can add to the PERFECT SACRIFICE OF JESUS with man's righteousness or man's works is insulting our Lord and Saviour.
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Those who try to use other portions of the New Testament to prove that works are required for Salvation or to maintain Salvation neglect to consider the writer, the purpose, the audience, the time, and THE CROSS.

James is one of the most consistently misused and abused in trying to prove that works are required for Salvation or the maintenance of Salvation. There were many devout Christian Jews of the time who still had strong bonds to Mosaic Law. James and many others of the time were known for fairly strong legalistic leanings. The bonds to Mosaic Law were not cut overnight. Formal and informal councils were necessary to address these bonds.

James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
James 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:1-3 above should make it apparent that Christian Jews were the intended audience for the book of James.

One could and should ask if churches of the time were of one mind regarding Mosaic Law. The obvious answer was "NO", and the answer is still "NO" today. A companion topic, "works", had the same questions and the same answers. One could and should also ask the question, "Was there a difference in teaching between primarily Jewish Christian Churches and primarily Gentile Christian Churches"? The obvious answer was "YES!". There were formal and informal councils of the time to address these differences.

Continued.......................Part 3

Repost:

God's Grace - Our Works - Part 3

Acts 21:18  And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Acts 21:19  And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Acts 21:20  And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Acts 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Acts 21:22  What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Acts 21:23  Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Acts 21:24  Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:25  As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Acts 21:26  Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

If one rightly divides the Word of Truth, there are NO contradictions in comparing James with Ephesians. However, James remains a popular argument for those who wish to:  (1) Rely on self-righteousness instead of yielding to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST; and/or (2) Hold on to all or part of the law for Salvation; and/or (3) Add man's pitiful works to the PERFECT SACRIFICE AND BLOOD OF JESUS AT THE CROSS.
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There are many other portions of Scripture that appear to contradict each other, but there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. There may even appear to be contradictions from one chapter to the next in the same book, but there are no contradictions. This is simply a failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

As another example, what might you think that 1 John 1:4 means?

1 John 1:4  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

What might you think that 1 John 2:4 means?

1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Wait, you can't make up your mind yet. What does 1 John 1:8 mean?

1 John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Well, it appears that we are all liars, that we all sin, and the truth can't be in us, so does this mean that we are all lost? Wait, don't make up your mind yet. What about 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1-2.

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The members of the audience are Christians already. There are no contradictions in 1 John. A student of 1 John doesn't have a chance of understanding it unless they consider the purpose of the writer and the audience it is intended for. One must also read the entire book of 1 John. Anything less would be a total failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth. One would be claiming contradictions that don't exist. Further, there are no contradictions in comparing 1 John with Ephesians.
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Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour!

There is Love in Jesus,
Tom

Law And Grace - Part Two

(2 Timothy 2:15)  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Studying the Holy Bible is something one needs to learn to do for themselves. There will always be many who are willing to spoon-feed those who are hungry for the TRUTH. However, if the receiver refuses to taste from the spoon, forcing the contents would be to no avail.

I'll let the Scriptures speak for themselves, and I'll know by your replies whether you tasted and studied, or not. If you read more than a sentence, you will discover the Commandments of Jesus Christ.
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(Matthew 22:35)  Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
(Matthew 22:36)  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
(Matthew 22:37)  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(Matthew 22:38)  This is the first and great commandment.
(Matthew 22:39)  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Matthew 22:40)  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
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(Mark 12:28)  And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
(Mark 12:29)  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(Mark 12:30)  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
(Mark 12:31)  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
(Mark 12:32)  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
(Mark 12:33)  And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
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(John 13:34)  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(John 13:35)  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
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(John 15:10)  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
(John 15:11)  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
(John 15:12)  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
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(Romans 7:4)  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Romans 7:5)  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Romans 7:6)  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
(Romans 7:7)  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(Romans 7:8)  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
____________________ End Part Two

Law And Grace - Part Three

(Romans 13:8)  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
(Romans 13:9)  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Romans 13:10)  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
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(Ephesians 2:12)  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Ephesians 2:13)  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(Ephesians 2:14)  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(Ephesians 2:15)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(Ephesians 2:16)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
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(Colossians 2:8)  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(Colossians 2:9)  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
(Colossians 2:10)  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(Colossians 2:11)  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(Colossians 2:12)  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(Colossians 2:13)  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(Colossians 2:14)  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(Colossians 2:15)  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(Colossians 2:16)  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(Colossians 2:17)  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:18)  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(Colossians 2:19)  And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
(Colossians 2:20)  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(Colossians 2:21)  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
(Colossians 2:22)  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
(Colossians 2:23)  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

____________________ End Part Three

Law And Grace - Part Four

(1 Timothy 1:5)  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
(1 Timothy 1:6)  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
(1 Timothy 1:7)  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
(1 Timothy 1:8)  But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
(1 Timothy 1:9)  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
(1 Timothy 1:10)  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
(1 Timothy 1:11)  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
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(Titus 1:9)  Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
(Titus 1:10)  For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
(Titus 1:11)  Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
(Titus 1:12)  One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
(Titus 1:13)  This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
(Titus 1:14)  Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
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(Hebrews 7:19)  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
(Hebrews 7:20)  And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
(Hebrews 7:21)  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
(Hebrews 7:22)  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
(Hebrews 7:23)  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
(Hebrews 7:24)  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
(Hebrews 7:25)  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(Hebrews 7:26)  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
(Hebrews 7:27)  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
(Hebrews 7:28)  For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
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(1 John 3:21)  Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
(1 John 3:22)  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
(1 John 3:23)  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
(1 John 3:24)  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

_____________________End Part Four

Law And Grace - Part Five

(John 1:16)  And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
(John 1:17)  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
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(An Entire Chapter Quoted for a BIG REASON: It speaks volumes that deserve serious study. If one studies this chapter and follows the references, cross-references, and contrasts, MUCH CONFUSION WILL BE ELIMINATED.

(Galatians 2:1)  Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
(Galatians 2:2)  And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
(Galatians 2:3)  But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
(Galatians 2:4)  And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
(Galatians 2:5)  To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
(Galatians 2:6)  But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
(Galatians 2:7)  But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(Galatians 2:8)  (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
(Galatians 2:9)  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
(Galatians 2:10)  Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
(Galatians 2:11)  But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
(Galatians 2:12)  For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
(Galatians 2:13)  And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
(Galatians 2:14)  But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
(Galatians 2:15)  We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
(Galatians 2:16)  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(Galatians 2:17)  But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
(Galatians 2:18)  For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
(Galatians 2:19)  For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
(Galatians 2:20)  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:21)  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
____________________End Part Five

Law And Grace - Part Six

(My Note: Please don't take the last Scripture out of context. If you need help understanding it, please let me know.)

(Romans 3:19)  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(Romans 3:20)  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(Romans 3:21)  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(Romans 3:22)  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Romans 3:23)  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Romans 3:24)  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(Romans 3:25)  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(Romans 3:26)  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(Romans 3:27)  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(Romans 3:28)  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Romans 3:29)  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
(Romans 3:30)  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
(Romans 3:31)  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
____________________

(My Note: We are not saved, justified, sanctified or given forgiveness by the law or our good works. All is by and through the BLOOD OF JESUS, our Lord and Saviour.)

(Romans 5:8)  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(Romans 5:9)  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(Romans 5:10)  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
(Romans 5:11)  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
(Romans 5:12)  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:13)  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(Romans 5:14)  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Romans 5:15)  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(Romans 5:16)  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
(Romans 5:17)  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
(Romans 5:18)  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(Romans 5:19)  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Romans 5:20)  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
(Romans 5:21)  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

(My Note:  It is NOT our righteousness, rather the righteousness of Jesus Christ. It is NOT our works, rather the finished work of Jesus Christ.)

____________________End Part Six

Law And Grace - Part Seven

(My Note: The following two Scriptures represent a very large and beautiful Bible study. Without the references, cross-references, and contrasts, you simply get a glimpse of the beautiful, precious TRUTH of THE CROSS.)

(Romans 6:14)  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Romans 6:15)  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
____________________

(My Note:  A contrast that speaks volumes.)

(Romans 7:1)  Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(Romans 7:2)  For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(Romans 7:3)  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(Romans 7:4)  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
____________________

(Romans 8:1)  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Romans 8:2)  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(Romans 8:3)  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Romans 8:4)  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
____________________

(Hebrews 10:7)  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
(Hebrews 10:8)  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
(Hebrews 10:9)  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(Hebrews 10:10)  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

____________________End Part Seven

At the risk of sounding a little more stupid, :P (OH WELL), what is this........FW 41.7, and FW 47.2. stuff ? Cause I thunk I am connfuzed.  
I needed a break from studing science book.....I'm about to go crazy trying to understand how to convert SI units.....gggggggrrrrrr. OK, I know short trip. hi ho hi ho its off to work we go.....hmmmhmmmh m HIIIII HOOOOOO hi ho
musicllover

Oklahoma Howdy to MusicLover,


I could be wrong, but I don't think so. That's EGW, Prophetess Ellen G. White's replacement for the Holy Bible. It is a very large work and is proclaimed to be inspired by God. She died in the 1800s of natural causes. By the way, her prophecy, given by date, did not happen. Regardless, there are some saved people in her flock. The single word you hear the most, over and over again, is Sabbath. However, they really don't know what the Sabbath is, and they don't keep it according to the Law of Moses.

The primary thrust is simple: If you don't go to church on Saturday, you are going to hell. The irony is that very few know what the Sabbath is, and they don't keep the Sabbath. It's really an EGW conglomeration of additions, deletions, and modifications.

Love In Christ,
Tom

The wages of sin is death, (Romans 6:23)

 Are you sinless S.S.?

Bronzesnake

Silver Surfer,

There is always a big problem with isolating one Scripture. In this case you have isolated a portion of a Scripture.

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is the GIFT OF GOD Silver Surfer and what does the GIFT mean to you?

By the way, what is the SABBATH, the purpose for the SABBATH, and how must the SABBATH be kept?

It's far past time for you to discover the PRECIOUS TRUTH OF THE CROSS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

If I sin, will that help you ?

If I don't sin, will that help you ?

The answer is no to both questions, because it is a personal relationship between you and God.

I'm merely letting people understand what the requirements are, for getting into heaven.

"The soul that sins, it shall die", (Ezekiel 18:4). That is a promise that God, can never break.

5:8  Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:  

I am sure you have no pictures or likeness of anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath. That would be a picture of a tree, a child, medow, cloud, flowers, surly you do not read a magizine that has such  law breaking likeness or picture. Or is verse EX 5:8 less of a commandment than 5:12? If you have such likeness how do you justify them?

 Silver Surfer will you answer?

Maybe you pick and choose which laws are the real ones, but i did copy the above verse stright from your post. Do you own a camera? If you do what likeness do you allow your self to make? Surly one who keeps the law keeps all the law correct? To do less than keep the whole law would be hypocritical correct? Not answering does not make the question go away.

I'm merely letting people understand what the requirements are, for getting into heaven.

If you think for one minute that ANYTHING added to the shed Blood of Jesus the Christ will get anyone to heaven you are not a Christian. Jesus paid the price. Mans rightousness is as filthy rags.

Nope...don't have a camera.

That's not the commandment of God's, that is going to be the issue, in last events.

The test of loyalty to God is going to be the 7th day Sabbath....or , Sunday.
http://home.earthlink.net/~se7en_7/

I was under the impression you thought you and your church were going to be the only ones in Heaven ..... ;D  :P ;D. So who are you preaching too ?

Do those requirements mean we HAVE to attend church on a Saturday? I'm still looking but so far I've not come across any scriptures to tell what day the Sabbath is, it just says to keep the Sabbath Holy. We are also told to NOT negelect the gathering of the saints.....so if there is a group of "saints" and we gather together NO matter what day it is, we sing, we pray, we worship.....and we call it church then I am sure that God is pleased. Honestly its what we do on the off days that really show our Christians faith anyway.
    ITs a real shame when someone believes because they have entered a certain building that they have immediate enterance into Heaven. Its the exclusion relegions that I have a real problem with. Its like say well thanks Jesus you tried man, but it just wasn't good enough for most of the world. Its like slapping him in the face. What Jesus done he done for ALL MAN KIND, he DIED was dead, with out life, took all the ugly sin and garbage of this world and pushed it aside so that those who believe can follow him thru........ I'm ready how about you?
musicllover

LOL  you pick and choose the commandants at YOUR will. I will pester you no more.

AMEN SISTER!!

That's why the Gospel of God's Grace is so simple. There are many self-righteous folks always trying to add something of their own to the shed blood of Jesus.

By the way, have you ever heard someone with the word "Sabbath" as the most used word in their vocabulary that doesn't know what it is, what it means, or how to keep it? It just shows me how easy it is for some folks to be led astray and robbed of the joy that could be in Jesus.

UM?, I don't know anyone who keeps the Sabbath, including Silver Surfer. AND, I never met someone who thought they were keeping the Sabbath that knows what it is, what it means, and how it should be kept. Considering that word appears to be much more important than Jesus for some folks, one would think that person might have some clue about the basics of the Sabbath. Now we have a person who can't explain the basics of the Sabbath but tells us we are all going to hell if we don't go to church on Saturday. I guess if he can't explain the Sabbath it must be a mystery or some kind of secret, certainly worthy of condemning all to hell that go to church on Sunday.


Sister Reba, here's a secret, so please don't tell anyone:

My Lord and Saviour is LORD over all 7 days!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Law And Grace - Part Eight (Sabbath)

(My Note: There is tremendous significance in the New Testament when the terms of "Rest" and "Peace" are used in connection with Jesus Christ. In fact, they also have tremendous significance in the Old Testament when used in connection with God the FATHER. If one uses the ancient languages to study portions of the Old Testament, GREAT secrets are revealed that apply directly to the rest and peace available ONLY BECAUSE OF THE CROSS! This is only one reason why one MUST BE a student of the Old Testament to understand the meaning, purpose, and effect of THE CROSS. If one has a basic understanding of the entire Holy Bible, one of the most appropriate things to say is: Thanks be unto GOD for HIS UNSPEAKABLE GIFT, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever. Some portions of Scriptures I have chosen to use in this study have a purpose that might not be immediately seen. Some are intended as a foundation for other portions of Scripture that I wish to use. I might add that some of the later portions of Scripture require a lot of time in Bible study. Language studies are required for part of what I really want to do, so please have some patience.)

(Matthew 11:25)  At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
(Matthew 11:26)  Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
(Matthew 11:27)  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
(Matthew 11:28)  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(Matthew 11:29)  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
(Matthew 11:30)  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
____________________

(My Note: One will see many instances in the Holy Bible where Jews wished to condemn Jesus Christ unto death for violation of the Sabbath. Jesus Christ was born under the Law and came unto HIS OWN (Israel), and HIS OWN received HIM not. Because of this, the GOSPEL was given also to the Gentiles (unclean, pagan, heathen). That's me and a host of members of the CHURCH which is THE BODY OF CHRIST. Some Jews are also members of the CHURCH which is THE BODY OF CHRIST, but the vast majority of Jews have rejected Jesus Christ as VERY GOD, Lord and Saviour. However, GOD isn't finished in HIS dealing with Israel, separate and apart. There are many Promises of God to Israel that are yet to be fulfilled, but every single Promise of God will be fulfilled at HIS appointed time. It's a serious error to confuse Israel with the CHURCH which is THE BODY OF CHRIST. This causes tremendous confusion until one learns how to rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH. I would not hint or imply that any portion of the Holy Bible should be ignored, JUST THE OPPOSITE. One can't understand the meaning, purpose, and effect of THE CROSS without diligent study of the entire Bible. Every single word of the Holy Bible, from cover to cover, is profitable for instruction, study, and understanding. Our treasures in Jesus Christ are MAGNIFIED when we contrast LAW and GRACE. There is no comparison to the world without Jesus Christ and THE CROSS to the ABSOLUTE REALITY we can partake of in and through OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST. I give thanks that the Gospel of the Grace of God is simple enough for a child to understand. One doesn't need to be a Bible scholar to understand and accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour. When we accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour, there are many reasons why we should hunger to study HIS WORD.  2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.)

(Matthew 12:1)  At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
(Matthew 12:2)  But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
(Matthew 12:3)  But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
(Matthew 12:4)  How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
(Matthew 12:5)  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
(Matthew 12:6)  But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
(Matthew 12:7)  But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
(Matthew 12:8)  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

(My Note: This portion of Scripture will be visited again.)

____________________End Part Eight (Sabbath)

Beatiful post beeps. Praise Jesus Christ for our salvation, for he is worthy.

Tom,
       I do love to read something when a person has the true understanding and knowledge of the scriptures. Very well written, this doesn't exclude anyone. Just the way Jesus wanted it or the gentiles would have never been given the chance after the Jews rejected him.
      I get pretty heated up when I think about some relegions claiming they are the ONLY ones. >:( Kinda reminds me of training a puppy, rub there nose in it, ;D and throw them outside....., so they come here rub our noses in there so called truth and claim we are going to hell.....
   The great news is even Jesus loves them and with a repetant heart they will get into Heaven with all other believers from ever tribe, nation and tongue.
      Just makes my heart burst with joy....... best get off here, got a test in health. Prays you all, test in CHild psy, and Phy Science, and ALGEBRA next week........OH WOO IS ME....... ;D

musicllover

......... but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

One works for wages, but a gift is freely given and this one is given out of love and that same love, through the Holy Spirit in us, produces our work in God. A gift given means there must be an acceptor or one to receive it. No work of the old law is involved, if so, it would not be a gift.

ollie

"The test of loyalty to God is going to be the 7th day Sabbath....or , Sunday."

Loyalty to God is through Jesus Christ, not through days of the week.

ollie

AMEN!! ollie

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

I just read quite a few posts again in this thread. I was just thinking about how much I love all of you and how much I enjoy our fellowship. There is only ONE test for Salvation - THE LAW OF FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST! I was just thinking how beautiful it is to love someone who you have never seen, and this is possible ONLY because of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. We are like a huge family who love and care for each other. We have our little spats and differences from time to time, much like brothers and sisters in a physical family. However, we are a spiritual family with Jesus Christ as the head of the family. What we have in common is much stronger than the bonds of a physical family, love and faith in Jesus Christ. We have our good days and bad, sickness and health, joy and sorrow, and many of the weaknesses of all mankind. BUT - We have Jesus who walks with us every step of the way. We also have each other for encouragement, prayer, and lifting up in times of trial. In short, all of our treasures are in and through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom

There's widespread confusion in regard to Biblical Law and its relevance to the Christian life. Indeed Christians who willingly submit to it are viewed as teaching salvation by works. Let it be known that we are not saved by our works - but by the grace of God. But does that excuse us from keeping the law of God?

The Apostle Paul (Romans 8:1-11) compares those 'in the flesh' and those 'in the Spirit'; that is, those who are unconverted and those who are converted. He states (v. 7) "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God". That is, the unconverted mind is 'fleshly', hostile to God - is not in subjection to God's laws.

Do you realize what the apostle is telling us? The converted mind is subject to the law of God. With this in mind, let's read and understand Rom. 1:8. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit". If we are in the Spirit, we will walk in subjection to the law of God and therefore will have no condemnation.

It must be noted, however, that a distinction is made between those who are subject to the law of God and those who are not - those who are walking according to the Spirit and those who are walking according to the flesh. Paul then tells us that God sent His Son because of our weaknesses so that the "righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" Romans 8:3-4, Notice again that Paul emphasizes a difference between those who walk in subjection to the law of God and those who do not. We cannot earn our salvation, but rather are saved by faith. Nevertheless, we must understand that "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" James 2:17.

The so-called 'old covenant' was replaced. Why? The reason is explained in Hebrews 10:8, 10 where we're told, "Because finding fault with them I will make a new covenant". God found fault with the people, not with His own laws. Because the people would not obey His laws, He said that He would establish a new covenant, one in which He would "put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts".

We all fall short of keeping the law perfectly. All too often we sin. That's why we can only be saved by God's grace and not by the law, not by our own righteousness acts, but by the righteousness of Christ. When we are repentant God imputes to us the perfect righteousness of His Son, our Saviour.

Jesus Christ is our mediator - and our example. He was able to overcome, and with his Spirit in us we can overcome also, if we are willing to put forth the effort.

Satan is the deceiver of the whole world and he has deceived some into thinking that it is not necessary to keep the laws of God. Don't ever be lured into believing this. Prophecy in Revelation 13:17 says, "The dragon [Satan] was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Why do you think that the dragon will be angry with the woman? Because Satan wants to deceive the whole world.

Some believe that we only need faith in Christ. Others seek salvation only by keeping the commandments. We need both. The inspired Scriptures tell us, James 2:14, 20 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? O foolish man ...faith without works is dead" .

It is possible to have our name blotted out of the Book of Life. Whoever overcomes will not have his name removed Rev. 3:5. We are not saved because of our works, but by God's mercy, through grace. But because of our love for God and of our faith in Him, we firmly establish God's laws in our life Romans 3:31

John wrote: "He who says 'I know him' and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. He who says he abides in him also himself also to walk just as he walked" I John 2:46. Don't be deceived by those who claim God's Law is 'done away'.

How did Christ walk? He by God's grace, and by staying close to the Father in prayer "with vehement cries and tears" Hebrews 5:7, led an unblemished life. He never once transgressed the divine law.

WOOOO NELLY,
back up a few scriptures....Rev 14:3B...no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4)These are the one who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins, these are the one who follow the lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed form among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5) And in their mouths was found no deciet, for they are without fault before the throne of God........
 
So your saying your one of the 144,000, your a virgin, and you followed Jesus were every he went, your redeemed from among men, and you have no deciet and are without faults? Wellll guess that would mean you are one of those  dear old very old saints.... ;D
 


Don't rush off to soon I got to looking, Let me show you what I found, but you have to be open minded a little OK, Lets look in John 20:1
Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early......... FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, SUNDAY is considered the first day of the week,......... little further over in the same book, John 20:19 Then the SAME day at evening being the first day of the week, ......... Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples come together to break bread Paul...........1 Cor 16:2 On the first day of the week  let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collection when I come....(sounds like they took an offering from those gathered on the first day of the week). Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day and I ........ ( the "Lord's Day" has been written about in the early CHristains writing as Sunday or refered to as the Lords Day, also the day the Lord resurrection) So your scripture tells us that they prepared spices on Fri, rested on Sat, and Christ rose on Sunday. Good deal, we are still on the same page.
 



Oh ya, now your beginning to understand..... Sat is the sabbath, also the Seventh day, and you just quoted from your scirptures on the FIRST DAY of the week, making it Sunday....I understand that it is the Jewish belief to meet on the Sabbath, but I'm not Jewish, I am Christian I meet on Sunday. I've heard it also taught that Christians met on a different day to seperate them form the Jew.  BUt, here comes the problem, neither here nor there, Sat or Sunday. Simply because some worship on Sun, they are still Christian, still bought and payed for by the blood of the lamb.





Yep, Paul held services on Sat, and then he went to church again on Sunday. So that only makes him miss Heaven by one day by your understanding. I don't believe that is how Jesus works....but hey I'll be big enough.....you go to church on Sat, and I'll go on Sunday and I'll meet you at the pearly gates for a first day in Heaven picnic.... ;D  



I can defiantly agree with you on this one too, neither does he make the Sabbath a yoke of bondage to keep some out of Heaven. Sat worship is not a HAVE too or then it would be the bondage you speak about, (that Jesus sat us free from for those who believe) but worshiping every day would be his preference I am sure. Its the condition of the heart, what we believe..... Do you believe Jesus is the son of God, do you believe that Jesus died for you...... isn't that the real issue here, the most important one.....not Sat or Sunday?  I guess I get alittle heated when someone tells me I won't get to Heaven cause I go to church.......ON SUNDAY, again I believe that Jesus did it all on the Cross, if Sat is so all fired important why didn't Jesus die on Sat? Why don't we have worship service on Thursay, I use to attend a wonderful womens bibles study every Tues morning, we worhsiped, we prayed, we sang songs, studied.....and I aint one bit sorry I did it either :P Is God going to send me to hell for that..... NO NO NO.... (said with a high sqeaky voice), ........ok I'm messin with you. Have a good evening.....back to the Books, well maybe I'd better go to bed first....tomorrow is the Christian sabbath..... ;D.

Beautiful words Tom. Thanks and thanks for that big Oklahoma hug. Here is a hug also for you and it  even contains a greeting of Christian love with a Holy kiss.  :)


ollie

The law is not bondage if none are transgressed. Transgression is sin and therein is the bondage. Christ frees all who would come from such. This is the law of liberty.

If one is perfect and does not sin that one is free and under the law of liberty already, however all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, therefore all are yoked in bondage, until they come to Christ. Then freedom from sin through Christ, the law of liberty, the same as the one who would be perfect and free by keeping all the law.

ollie

Amen

A wome of few words....... I've done this before so its an old joke....... AMEN and AMEN and AMEN......cause I like to talk alot.. ;D

YA, its like Ollie said  ;D (I'm standing in my sand box now) so I'll add this.
Back up a few scripture to verse 8 (James 2:10-12) then you have the whole idea.
    James 2:8-12 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, you shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well, 9) but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10) For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all..........

So again, asking Silver do you not sin at ALL, do you keep the whole law, do you never stumble? Or Are you being partial, such as the scripture tells not to do in James 2:4 and verse 8, being partial is a SIN. Is this partiality when you say worship is on SAT and any other way will cause you to go to hell? THose who live under the law must keep the law, with out compromise...your saying you as good a Jesus perfect then, ??? why do you need Jesus?
      Jesus come to fullfill the law, He is the only man alive that did keep the law, uncompromised, and perfect, no stumbling......he then gave us the new law (if you must call it that) The law of Grace. Thru him ONLY can we have a way into Heaven, worship on Sat, Sun or when ever we must believe and call on Jesus.
    The indocrtrinization of "Sat worhsip only" is a bondage friend, Jesus doesn't require anything but to follow him, believe in him, confess him as your Lord and Savior. Your doing that so (I assume), why do you insist on impling others are going to hell?
  What christian value does this have? IF it were the way you believe (and correct me on this please) only 144,000 are getting into heaven anyway...I kinda figure my chances of getting into Heaven with that belief would be ZZZZIPPP after a few century or so.
    What of the 144,001 person? Is there a waiting list for someone who stumbles and falls away?  
   I have stumbled, I have fallen, that would mean by your teaching that I can't get into heaven, because I worship on Sun. and I haven't kept the commandments

Another has taken my place, my name is scratched off the waiting list. Soooo is it too late for me?

No
because the I believe the one who took my place is Jesus.

if I get to Heaven first I'll find us a nice spot for our picnic.... Oh ya, you can't pretend I'm not there, that would just be rude... :P
       

It's really nice to see someone with a balanced view regarding the relationship between grace and the Law of God.

DreamWeaver, does BEP agree with your stance on the law?

I would say this represents my position, but have had some debate with BEP on some issues, and from my understanding, he would not agree (maybe I didn't understand him).

Maybe some clarification is in order (BEP if you're listening).
Let me state my position clearly-
I agree that salvation is by grace/faith, not works.

My statements concerning the law are under the context of the life of the redeemed, not the entrance requirements of the unsaved.

I would not agree with statements made by SilverSurfer to the effect that those who keep Sunday will go to hell.
God is the righteous judge, and can make His servants stand (Rom. 14:3-4)

I had a friend that was at a conference in the Philippines about the law in relation to the believer, and the first question he got from the pastors he was talking to (those opposed to the teaching of God's law in the books of Moses) was - "If I don't keep the Sabbath, am I sinning?"

This is the heart of the Sabbath debate, since when I say I think we should keep the Sabbath (not for salvation, but out of love/obedience) then in the mind of the sunday observing Christian that translates to me telling them that they (and all the rest of the mainstream Christian church) are not in line with God, and sinning.

I am not trying to point out sin but to demonstrate that the Sabbath is our heritage and a delight  as delineated in Isa. 56.  This passage shows that for one, gentiles can be grafted in, and two, the sign of our covenant relationship is the same one God gave to Israel!  This passage is NOT saying "if you keep the Sabbath - go to heaven", but that it is a part of the covenant between God and all His people.

"Our heritage?" you may ask, "I'm not Jewish".  However the Sabbath is not Jewish either, and was instituted at creation.
In one post, I noticed that one person pointed out that it was not commanded in Gen. and that is true, the terminology is not a command.  However the bottom line is that the Sabbath is the first thing in all of creation that God sanctified.  Once God speaks, His word is permanent, and the day cannot be un-sanctified.

At the very least, a sunday Christian must admit that God considers that day sanctified even if they choose not to sanctify it.  Now if they believe that Israel is a separate entity from the gentiles, and that only Israel is commanded to keep the Sabbath, then they would be (from their viewpoint) in a position where they were not commanded to keep the Sabbath (since they are not part of Israel), but that God still considers it sanctified.  A good question to ask here is - "if God considers the day holy, shouldn't we?"

Secondly, if a sunday Christian did believe they are part of Israel by engrafting (Rom. 11), then they would have to conclude that they were living in sin since the command would now apply to them.  If they don't change their action to reflect their conviction, then they would have to rely on the fact that Jesus' sacrifice would atone for their sin.  This has obvious problems, the foremost being intentional sin and atonement.

I believe that although many Christians may not keep Sabbath, they will not be excluded from the Kingdom for that reason.  It would be their heart intention that God will judge, and that is what I was trying to get at above. I believe most Christians live by their convictions, and I believe even if they are mistaken about the Sabbath, that God will accept them and correct them Himself.

Ollie posted about the burden of the Law, and while I agree that sin is a burden that is created by transgressing the law, the burden of the law that Jesus identified was the man made regulations of the sages of that time-

Matthew 23:1-12
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger."

This informs us to the meaning of this passage-

Acts 10:28
        28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."

God wasn't concerned that Peter still wasn't eating pork, but wanted Peter to realize that although the sages made a law (not in God's law) that Jews and Gentiles are to stay separate, even if the gentiles in question are observing the law as we know from historical sources that the "God fearers" did. Even if they were eating kosher and attended your synagogue, a Jew was not allowed to fellowship with them until they were circumcised.  God's point was that he determines who is in Israel, and who isn't, not the sages.

This also makes sense of the verse in Acts where James talks of the law as a burden neither we nor our fathers could bear-

Acts 15:10
        10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"

Putting a gentile through circumcision would also mean that they would have to obey all rabbinic law (the burden to heavy to bear) since they would be placed under the authority of the Sanhedrin.  Even Rome recognized their authority, and while Romans looked down on converts to Judaism, they did still recognize the authority of the Sanhedrin over that person.  Paul however was convinced that the gentiles should not be exposed to that burden, and the council agreed.  They only imposed restrictions on activities relating to idolatry (sexual fornication, strangled animal meat, ingesting blood, and any idol related practice).

This gets to the very heart of the Law vs. Grace debate since the Law that is opposed to grace is not God's law, but the laws that the sages created that are opposed to God's Grace.  The giving of the law to Israel was an act of grace in and of itself.

Does this in any way demean the sacrifice of our Master and Lord? Not at all, rather I believe that the law teaches us to live as He lived. The law teaches us what the Messiah would do, and how we would recognize Him.

Earlier I posted a statement that I was sure would be challenged, but heard nothing back.  It was something to this effect-

"there are no covenants made anywhere in Scripture (NT/OT) with anyone but Israel, and there is no salvation for anyone outside of a covenant"

 I was curious if anyone knows of a place where there is a covenant made with anyone except Israel?  I've been looking....
Even the New Covenant in Hebrews / Jer. 31 is made with Israel....

I consider each sunday Christian an Israelite brother (not to be confused with a Jew) who does keep most of the law -
Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, strength (Deut. 6:4)
Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
9 of the 10 commandments (Ex. 20)
No homosexuality (Lev. 20:13)

In everyday life, the only difference someone would see between me and them is that I speak positively about God's law, and do some of the smaller laws (kosher/fringes), and sanctify the Sabbath.

Out of all of these differences, the Sabbath was the only one that had a death penalty attached to it.  I say this not because I think they should be put to death (although we all deserve that), but because I want to point out how important it was to God.  This is why I think of all things law related, the Sabbath is the starting place on restoring the missing law and our missing heritage.

If you have a problem with these commands, then you should have a problem with baptism as well since it is the same type of command- not done for salvation, but as a covenant sign.  Responses?  This post has a some Sabbath arguments as BEP directed me to this forum to continue a thread from another forum.

Onebook,
            Just following along with what you've written and finding it interesting. I do have one question, and find it very inlightening when you think about the idea of a Sabbath being commanded in so many words in Gen. We know that God created for six days and he rested......from my previous post that Silver hasn't answered yet I understand that the first day of the week is Sunday, please read my previous post. Is the Sabbath mentioned in Gen a Sat or is this a day that man picked somewhere along the way?
      I do not believe I am going anywhere but to Heaven because I choice to worship on Sunday, and feel those who judge those that do are making a grave mistake and will find themselves at the back of the line (scriptural based opinion but don't know the ref off hand) But that doesn't keep those from going to Heaven either. So I'm not asking becuase this will validate anything that Silver might believe but simply out of curiousity. Is there any scripture to tell us what the first day of creation was? When God called it finished and he rested do we really know what day that was? Is man putting God in a box when they say the he rested on Sat, so therefore we HAVE to worhsip on Sat.
     Blessings,
musicllover

Oklahoma Howdy to OneBook,

My stance on the Sabbath is very simple, for Christians - it is 24 hours a day - 7 days a week. I worship, pray, and study the Holy Bible every day. In terms of rest, I rest in Jesus Christ 24/7. Jesus is in my heart and I am in Jesus. HE is LORD OVER ALL DAYS - not just one.

Bluntly, the Sabbath is a Jewish ritual under the Law. It had many purposes for Israel, and it still does for the Jews who reject Jesus Christ as Very God, Lord and Saviour. Those who say that they keep the Sabbath don't know what it is or how to keep it under the Law. I've never met a Sabbath keeper that keeps the Sabbath. In fact, I've never met a self-proclaimed Sabbath keeper who could even explain what the Sabbath is. I don't say any of this to be critical at all - just the opposite. The Sabbath has absolutely nothing to do with Salvation or pleasing God. The GIFT of Jesus Christ on the CROSS is the only perfect sacrifice, and we can now worship, pray, and fellowship in HIS WORD 24/7.

Jesus Christ is my Sabbath. I have no problem at all with folks who wish to worship on Saturday, Wednesday, Monday, etc. If they have Jesus Christ in their hearts, it doesn't matter which day of the week someone worships. Realistically, a mature Christian worships, prays, and studies the Holy Bible every day. I do have a big problem with someone condemning others to hell because of the day they go to church. Here's a hint that will be shown in more detail about the Sabbath:  violation of the Sabbath was a death penalty FOR ISRAEL - UNDER THE LAW. Jesus Christ paid that death penalty, but that is just the beginning of PRECIOUS GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.

It is quite Biblical and correct for a Christian to say that Jesus Christ is my Sabbath 7 days a week - not one.

Love in Christ,
Tom

So far Silver Surfer, ad oneBook have missed my point.

Peace and blessings musicllover,

A good question, and for the answer, we have to go a bit into the original language (Hebrew).

So in the account in Gen., the days are identified as day one, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, and seventh day.  In Hebrew - yom echad, yom sheni, yom shlishi, yom revi'i, yom chamishi, yom shishi, and yom shevi'i.

An interesting side note- the numbering on the first day is cardinal, and the rest of the days ordinal.  I just think it is interesting.

In the Hebrew calendar, they didn't have names of the week other than the numbers.  From Genesis to the Gospels, and even to this day, the Hebrews use the same designations for the days of the week in their calendar.

How do we know that it wasn't changed somewhere in between? Maybe the Jews are keeping the wrong day?  Another related question will shed light on this- how do we know that the Old Testament and New Testament weren't botched or corrupted?  God entrusted the Scriptures to Israel as we see in Rom. 3:1-2.
1 Then what advantage F46 has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they R106 were entrusted with the oracles R107 of God.

So God entrusted them with Scripture, so also he entrusted them with the Sabbath.  Jesus would have corrected them if they had it wrong, but He, being the Lord of the Sabbath (the originator), did not dispute it, but disputed how it should be kept.  It is instructive to note that the issues Jesus argues with them are not mentioned in the Biblical law (picking food, healing, etc...), but were purely traditions of the elders.  Also, they are usually criticizing Jesus' disciples, and not him (except for the healing).

Does that answer your question, or give you a whole bunch more? ;)

God Bless,
Onebook

One Book,
             I believe that the scritpures are with out error, no matter the tranilation, God's word is for every true. But what you've wrote here is also causing me to wonder just where SATURDAY came into the mix? If the Hebrew text have no names for the days of the week, then the Hebrew elders are also the ones that dictated which day of the week to worship on.....and then tried to enforce that on all believers, much like the debate that circumsion caused.
    Yes he entrust the Hebrew people with the keeping of his word, records, and he gave Adam the job of naming the animals.....so why didn't he name the sabbath too.....Do you see what I am gettting at. If Sat was the deignated day, then its seems it would have been written as such. There is no "SET" day for the Sabbath, simply we are told to keep the  sabbath.
      So aside from the quack relegions that want to say that the Sabbath is Sat and those who don't worship on Sat are going to hell, there truly isn't, and never has been a day that has been appointed by God, or set in scriptures as a Sabbath......So couldn't it be said the Sabbath is the day you choice to worship on?   ;D I know this is almost knit picking, but if you have a group of people such as Christians, then if that group worships on any day of the week they are still keeping a commandment to keep the sabbath.
    I would also like your opinion on the last post of mine to Silver,  that I will say again he still has NOT ANSWERED....., if you need for me I can copy and bump it up forward for you. But there are scriptures to say that Christian worship on the first day of the week, which definatly goes along with  Hebrew text  and practice of not naming days but simply given them a number. Somewhere all the way someone give them Mon.....thru Sunday names. As we well know man could tear up an anvil in a sandpile. (old saying my dad used to tell us kids  ;D) Christ simply want our love, and worship I really don't think it had anything to do with LETTING the Hebrews just do it, God didn't have a prefrence to the day just as you said to the how.

OK off to write an 3 page report.....get this on STD's. OOOOOHHHHH in Earnst (Jim Varney) fashion.....
musicllover

to musicllover-
sorry, I forgot to remove the footnotes (R##) from the Romans text (doh!)

To DreamWeaver-
I guess I did, but I agree with what you wrote, so the difference in understanding must be in definition of terms,  and interpretative tradition/hermeneutics.


I have too often ran into people who appear to believe that the problem was God's law, so this was nice to hear that someone was paying attention to the text and saw the problem was with the people.  You are quite right that we cannot live up to God's righteousness and so He imputes it to us through His Son, but does that mean that we don't attempt to live righteously?  Besides, in the law, it symbolically teaches us that God will atone for our sin (in the sacrifice). If the law is God's standard of righteousness, then we should fulfill it (to the best of our ability) and consider it our duty, not that we are working to earn a reward as in Lu. 17:7-10-

7 "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come immediately and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not say to him, `Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? 9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, `We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.' "

This takes humility, and we must constantly realize that God owns us.
When you said at the end of your post "and with his Spirit in us we can overcome also, if we are willing to put forth the effort.", what are we putting forth effort to do?  I know we don't put forth effort to be saved, but we do serve God and that takes effort.  This is consistent with Eph 2:8-10-

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The last part (verse 10) is not memorized by many, but is our focus once we have been saved.  We have been saved FOR good works, not BY them. I think this is in agreement with your point of view (so far).

Sometimes as Christians, we get hung up on the beginner stuff (salvation and turning from dead works), not that we shouldn't remember those from time to time, but as Hebrews states, we need to move on to more mature subjects-
Heb. 6:1-8

1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

One question I have is- what are the "washings" (note it is plural)?  I think I am conversant in the other subjects, but if I don't have a handle on this beginner subject, doesn't that show a deficiency in the teaching I have received in the Church?  Do you know what the "washings" are?

So, I think our departure is how we live (to some degree).
Obviously, you agree, I take it that we should live out these-
Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, strength (Deut. 6:4)
Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
9 of the 10 commandments (Ex. 20)
No homosexuality (Lev. 20:13)

Please let me know if my assessment is way off.
Do you consider these to be living out the good deeds God prepared in advance for us to do?

What are the particulars of loving God and my neighbor?  Is it the warm, fuzzy feeling I get when I sing to God, or pray?  I don't always get them, but is that love?
I would say that is a side effect of love, but love itself must manifest itself by obedience wouldn't you agree?
We mostly differ on what to obey-
Just the commands we find in the NT (which are re-iterated from the OT)
-or-
All the commands we find in the Bible.

I think when it comes down to it, this difference is due to dispensationalism, which I don't subscribe to.  Now I know from reading many posts here that you consider that without dispensationalism, you can't get to the truth in the Bible, but you do have to admit that it is a derived interpretive tradition, and it is not based on a literal text.  Not that interpretative tradition is bad, it can help us see things sometimes, or make sense of something that didn't make sense before, but it can also cause us not to see what the text is saying.  Interpretative tradition is like having glasses that filter out out some things and bring other things into focus.  But I think from time to time, we need to look at the text and remove all our traditions, and use the historical, grammatical context to illuminate the text.

One last thing I would like to add is that I don't subscribe to systematic theology either.  I think that we need to view Scriptures in as an open system, not a closed system.  This means that when we find verses that don't seem to jive, we don't have to make up an explanation (we should try to find one), but just leave them in tension.  Especially where it involves God's nature, since this issue has caused so many splits, cults, etc.  Notice in 1st century Judaism, they believed the Messiah would be divine, but there was never an argument recorded until quite some time after the NT.  While I don't subscribe to it, I do believe that it can be used as a technique to study, but we have to set it aside sometimes to make sure that we aren't putting meaning into the text that is not there.

So now you know more of my position, I would like to hear clarification on yours, and also feedback on my understanding of your position.

Peace and blessings brother-
Onebook

hey music, does this mean i can play in the sandbox too? cause if not i'll go build my own sandbox! Just pickin!

God Bless,
Joshua  :P

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 :)

Joshua,
         Sure you can play in my sand box, but you have to play nice, don't throw sand and make sure your kitty don't come over at night....... :P... and you have to be asked to help before you tear up someone elses anvil.  ;D
musicllover

Yes.

 Genesis 2:2.  "And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; amd he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
 3.  And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. "

Matthew 11:28.  "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
 29.  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
 30.  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Hebrews 3:7.  :Wherefore, even as the Holy Spirit saith, To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
 8.  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, Like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness,
 9.  Where your fathers tried me by proving me, And saw my works forty years.
 10.  Wherefore I was displeased with this generation, And said, They do always err in their heart: But they did not know my ways;
 11.  As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
 12.  Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:
 13.  but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:
 14.  for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:
 15.  while it is said, To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
 16.  For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?
 17.  And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
 18.  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
 19.  And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
"

  Hebrews 4:1.  "Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
 2.  For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.
 3.  For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
 4. For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;
 5.  and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
 6.  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,
 7.  he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before), To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.
 8.  For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.
 9.  There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
 10.  For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.
 11.  Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
 12.  For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 13.  And there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
 14.  Having then a great high priest, who hath passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
 15.  For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 16.  Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need."

The Sabbath is today, day by day for those that hearken unto His voice with obedience and harden not their hearts.

Some verses on the rest for God's faithful. If they have already been posted. Perhaps they are needed again.

ollie

Onebook,
        Here are the scriptures I posted for Silver surf, but he hasn't answered yet. How do you understand these scriptures when it makes it very clear that the first day of the week is Sunday, and several instances that they gathered together to worship. And what of the teaching that Christians choose to worship on Sunday to keep them seperate from the Jews. Have you heard any of those teachings? If its true, (christians keeping seperate) and the scripture are God's Holy word, and it is, then the discples did attend worship on Sunday and the Jews on Sat......so how does that relale for today. Is it right to say that Sunday worshipers are going to hell?

John 20:1
Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early......... FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, SUNDAY is considered the first day of the week,......... little further over in the same book, John 20:19 Then the SAME day at evening being the first day of the week, ......... Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples come together to break bread Paul...........1 Cor 16:2 On the first day of the week  let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collection when I come....(sounds like they took an offering from those gathered on the first day of the week). Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day and I ........ ( the "Lord's Day" has been written about in the early Christians writing as Sunday or referred to as the Lords Day, also the day the Lord resurrection) So your scripture tells us that they prepared spices on Fri, rested on Sat, and Christ rose on Sunday. Good deal, we are still on the same page.





Oh ya, now your beginning to understand..... Sat is the Sabbath, also the Seventh day, and you just quoted from your scriptures on the FIRST DAY of the week, making it Sunday....I understand that it is the Jewish belief to meet on the Sabbath, but I'm not Jewish, I am Christian I meet on Sunday. I've heard it also taught that Christians met on a different day to separate them form the Jew.  But, here comes the problem, neither here nor there, Sat or Sunday. Simply because some worship on Sun, they are still Christian, still bought and paid for by the blood of the lamb.


Yep, Paul held services on Sat, and then he went to church again on Sunday. So that only makes him miss Heaven by one day by your understanding. I don't believe that is how Jesus works....but hey I'll be big enough.....you go to church on Sat, and I'll go on Sunday and I'll meet you at the pearly gates for a first day in Heaven picnic....    


I can defiantly agree with you on this one too, neither does he make the Sabbath a yoke of bondage to keep some out of Heaven. Sat worship is not a HAVE too or then it would be the bondage you speak about, (that Jesus sat us free from for those who believe) but worshiping every day would be his preference I am sure. Its the condition of the heart, what we believe..... Do you believe Jesus is the son of God, do you believe that Jesus died for you...... isn't that the real issue here, the most important one.....not Sat or Sunday?  I guess I get a little heated when someone tells me I won't get to Heaven cause I go to church.......ON SUNDAY, again I believe that Jesus did it all on the Cross, if Sat is so all fired important why didn't Jesus die on Sat? Why don't we have worship service on Thursdays, I use to attend a wonderful women’s bibles study every Tues morning, we worshiped, we prayed, we sang songs, studied.....and I aint one bit sorry I did it either  Is God going to send me to hell for that..... NO NO NO.... (said with a high squeaky voice), ........ok I'm messin with you. Have a good evening.....back to the Books, well maybe I'd better go to bed first....tomorrow is the Christian Sabbath.....  .

musicllover

AMEN!!!

The precious portions of Scripture you posted and others need to be visited often and carefully. What we are actually talking about is accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour. Jesus Christ is our ALL. The GOOD NEWS is not about Moses or the Law. The GOOD NEWS is about the Love, Grace, and GIFT of Jesus Christ to all who will believe and ask Jesus to come into their heart as personal LORD and SAVIOUR.

I give thanks and praise to God that Jesus died for me. I give thanks that I belong to HIM, that HE is in my heart, and I rest safe and secure IN HIM for eternity.

Brother, our GREATEST GIFT AND TREASURE IS a matter of great JOY - Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour Forever.

Thanks Brother Ollie.

Love In Christ,
Tom

In this dispensation of God's grace, God justifies ungodly sinners by His Grace upon the ground of the shed blood of Jesus Christ through the means of faith. This complete salvation is bestowed as a free gift of God apart from works. Salvation is given to those who simply believe the gospel by a free will decision. My Gospel Corinthians 15:3-4.

musicllover-

Let me clarify-
The days have names, but they are named with numbers.  Additionally, the Sabbath does have a special name it shares with all the other holidays (Shabbat). So we see that there is a Shabbat on the first and last day of Passover/Unleavened bread, etc. (see Lev. 23)

I see that you consider that sunday is the 1st day of the week, so you must agree that the Sabbath is the 7th, so I won't belabor that point.

As for as the verses you posted, let me start by clarifying how the Sabbath is kept.  The Sabbath starts on what we would call by our current week friday at sundown and finishes on saturday at sundown.  All the time from saturday sundown to sunday sundown is the 1st day.  This is because the Hebrews took their reckoning of days from the Genesis account- "and there was evening and there was morning....".

So, when it states that they were up late on the first day of the week, it means saturday night.  This makes sense in the following verse, since Paul would not travel on the Sabbath, and after sundown, it is too dark to travel.


You see, when celebrating the Sabbath, to this day Jews have a service at the end that drags on into the first day called Havdallah.  This is done in order to set apart the Sabbath (keep it holy) from the rest of the week.
This also would explain why the collection is done on the first day of the week, since they also wouldn't have collected money on the Sabbath-

Another interesting study is to compare Havdallah with the Agape feasts of the early believers, but that is a separate discussion/study.

In the Revelation verse you quoted-

This may be better translated - "I was in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord"
This is a better translation in that it informs the reader what the following events relate to, i.e.- the era that is spoken of by all the prophets (there is another good comparison study).

I also wanted to address this statement-

This teaching came later in the church, and mostly happened because of the Fiscus Judaicus (Jewish Tax) levied by Rome on all Jews, of which the Christians were considered part!!  Since they practiced biblical feasts, etc, they were lumped in with the Jews.  At this point, Christian Gentiles started to hide all external Biblical observance, and even dump some all together.  Since the Gentiles had become more numerous than the Jewish adherents, that became the overwhelming character of Christianity, although it was not the same Christianity that Jesus, Paul, or the disciples practiced.

I also notice that there is a tendency to separate "spiritual" from physical practices, but this seems to be opposite the idea of spiritual that is proclaimed in scripture.  The whole idea of sanctification is to take the physical world and make it serve God, thus sanctifying it.  Holiness is accomplished in a physical body.  God placed our spirits in a body because He wanted holy people, He could have just made us spirits if he wanted us that way.  

And finally, as I said before, I don't think this is an issue about whether or not someone who doesn't observe the Sabbath is going to hell, but I pose this as a question to us who are followers of Jesus, to suggest that maybe we have not been walking in all truth, and maybe we can recover it still...

Blessings and peace-

Onebook

Yes !
And faith is demonstrated by works...the works, God performs, in the lives of converted people.

As the scripture says: "Ye shall know them by their fruits"


God even points out a people who have the faith of Jesus, because they keep the commandments of God:
  Revelation 14:12   "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

QUESTION: Are not the 'saints'....Christians ?  

"Faith", a word so often spoken, but so seldom understood. A word repeated by the politicians to gain votes, but so rarely used in its proper meaning for fear of being politically incorrect. A word haled by the religious in hopes of satisfying the "itchy ears", but so rarely preached according to scripture for fundamentalism doesn't fill the pews and offering plates. For those who seek the true meaning of spiritual terms such as faith, fundamentalism however is essential. Thus, we turn to the Holy word of God in confidence of being instructed for we know that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness." (II Timothy 3:16)

<:)))><

Yes, And how ungrateful some people are....refusing to do, as Jesus Christ asks of them !!!

Silver,
          I wonder what had happened to you, I worried that maybe the hurricans blew you away or something. I honestly don't want you to die before you figure this out, I would truly hate for you to pick the picninc spot.....you'd probably pick one that was next to a river that ONLY your church could swim in  ;D
      I have posted several scripture for you, showing that the Disciple gathered on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Your saying that these great men, witness of Jesus Christ, writter of the Holy word, preachers and the reason the CHurch was spread are all in hell?
      But I guess it makes no difference what I posted your still insisting that any who worhsip on Sunday  is doom to hell.
      I am really curious, have you been raised to believe this, or is this a teaching you've come to believe? I understand that the word tells us certain wrongs, and those wrongs will cause a person to face judgement, some of those wrongs will cause a person to go to hell but its not so much THOSE wrongs as the addittude behind them, all sin is unforgivable except blashamy of the Holy Spirit.... or dieing with out Jesus CHrist. Do you believe a murderer can ask for forgiveness and enter into Heaven. Another example, the man hanging beside Christ on the cross as far as we understand didn't even attend a worship service...yet Christ told him he would be with him in pradise......so you or rather the church you attended has this figured out better than even God almighty.....Is it a scriptural promises? Or have you rewritten the scripturue....the promise is to believe in Jesus, he is the only way to Heaven, faith causes everything else to fall into place.... for example a person smoke, or does drugs....The Holy Spirit brings conviction  that leads to repentance and repentance leads to not doing that "sins" again. BUT  NOT attending Church on Sat, or Sunday.  What gurantee is there that ANYONE is going to heaven? NONE we don't deserve too....but thru Jesus.   Is this a little judgemental? pious, a pharisee spirit speaks thru your mouth.....and that is worse than attending church on Sunday or anyday of the week. You've not responed to any of my questions excep to sit on your judgemental pedistal and scream out of context scriptures.....and as Jesus said you are a white washed tomb full of dead mans bones. You speak with lies and self rightouse adittude.
    So why do you come here to this site? If only a certain number gets into Heaven, and since we are Sunday worshipers aren't you wasting your time. Your hearing preaching that God allow everyone to be born then to watch them go to hell, what for ? his ammusment? He let his son die for only 144,000 people and that is all Jesus blood was good for?????....I guess God should have brought an end to the world when the last 144,000 was born. Sure would have saved me alot of heartache and man I could have been sleeping in on Sundays.
musicllover

Silver,
while I agree that we should be keeping Sabbath, I don't see how you can state that other people are going to Hell who don't.  The issue is that if it is a sin not to keep Sabbath, then can't the atonement of Jesus cover that too?

Look in 2 Chron. 30:18-20


Notice that eating the Passover sacrifice while being unclean puts you in a death penalty situation (cut off), but Hezikiah prayed and God listened and forgave the people.  It was because they didn't know any better, and God saw their heart was in the right place so He even performed miricles of healing for them.

Remember also the words of Paul in Rom. 14:3-4

I think God is big enough to correct another brothers errors.  You have already judged your brother and sentenced him.  Just tell them what is good about Sabbath and defend your position, but don't assign their eternal resting place.

musicllover-
I think the 144,000 thing is from the JW's and I believe that Silver is in the SDA church...

Onebook,
        Yes, your right, silver has refused to answer any of my earlier posts so I wonder if he was coming from the JW postions or SDA's, since he never answered I use that as an example or our crazy his postions is being that those who believe in the 144,000 are the only ones going to Heaven too, they can't both be right.
       Silver's opinion is sad, the Christain faith is based on the belief that Jesus did all there was to do for us on the cross, and yet we have this one who says ya WELLL....... he sure did for ME, but the rest of you lazy slobs are dooommmeeddd HAHAHAHAH,  ::) because you don't worship on Sat. Which is so crazy, that saying the 12 disciples are in hell, and all those who walked with Jesus, all those in the following generations of believer. Then along comes another savoir, one... Mrs White who comes up with the REAL salvational plan ::) lol. If it weren't so stupid it would be sickening that any human being could change the plan that God worked thru Jesus Christ.
      I wanted to ask you and correct me, but you believe Sat is the first day of the week? And where is this teaching from please.
        I truly appreciate your open mindness, and non judemental way Onebook, that is the heart of a true Christain no if you go to church on Sat or Sunday.

Well got to go, our church is celebration its 100 birhtday today....can you believe that 100 years of Sunday worhsipping..... ;D

Thanks, Gods riches blessing to you,
musicllover

musicllover

musicllover-

partially, at sundown is when the day of the week changes, so sat. evening is the first day, while sat. day is the 7th (Sabbath).  Likewise, the 7th day starts at sundown on fri., but before sundown, it is the 6th day. You could think of it as having two calendars, and you shift the days on one up about a quarter day (it varies through the year due to changes in sundown- earlier in winter and later in summer).

The early believers kept the Agape feast (also mentioned in Jude 1:12) on sat night (the 1st day of the week). There was a 3rd century work called "The Aposolic Constitutions" that outlined the rules for the feast, and even detail on how the lamps should be lit. Note that in Acts 20:7-11, that it does mention lamps, which tells us it is at night, and the fact that they mention the lamps is a good indication that this was an agape feast.  The tradition of having lamps is part of the keeping of the Sabbath, specifically of the Havdallah ceremony.  So the disciples passed on the tradition of having a closing ceremony for the Sabbath, and this morphed into the Agape feast and later disappeared all together.

We know they still met on the Sabbath because the disciples who stayed in Jerusalem met at the Temple daily, and participated in the prayer service.  This last piece of info is gleaned in this verse- Acts 3:1

also Acts 2:42 - 47

note that in the above, where it says "to prayer", in Greek actually has the definate article so should be read "the prayer".  This strongly suggestes participation in the liturgy of the Temple, for in Jewish circles, the liturgy was called "the Prayer" quite often.

Well, that's enough for now.  I've got to go work (it's one of the 6 days of labor  ;D )

Peace and Blessings, and congrats on the 100 year birthday of your fellowship.

-Onebook

Technically speaking then those who attended a worship service Sunday morning are still observing the 1st day of the week and also the sabbath......like that makes any difference to God but for the sake of this Sabbath day arguement, Sunday morning worship is still the sabbath day.

Jesus death and being placed in a tomb was on Friday the last of the 6th day, right, Saturday they observed the sabbath, (which never has been in question) this follows  the rules of the Jewish faith, and early Sunday morning Jesus already risen. I am mostly tryin to put this all in my head in an organized manner. Sat evening to Sunday is day 1. Sunday Evening to  Monday evening is day 2. As I type this we are working on day 2 ?
     It would seem then that the scriptures I posted earlier still prove that the first day of the week is (as far as Jewish law prescribes) Sunday, ( and as you have explained Satureday evening) all would be with the keeping of the Sabbath.  
Just in case they are needed:
Mark 16:9
John 20:1, 19
Matt 28: 1
Marke 16:1-2
Acts 20:7
1 Cor 16: 1-2
 Rev 1:10
Even the scriptures will call sun up to sun down one day, so its interesting that its actually half one day and half the other.....my example is Christ will rise in 3 days, from his own mouth even. So I really don't think that anyone should be trying to put words in Jesus mouth, as far as what day to worship or that we will being going to hell for worshipping on Sunday. Seems to me we are worshipping on the sabbath.  :P its simply the last half rather than the first half of the sabbath.....

OK I best get to bed.....God's riches
blessing to you,
musicllover

Hey musicllover,

Yes, that would put us into day two since sundown (or monday as we call it).  This part I think you have down, but I am afraid I confused you on the Sabbath/1st day issue.

Let me just give a sample of how a normal Sabbath would go down, hopefully that will be less confusing than my other posts-

fri. just before sundown
   the disciples are gathering to usher in the Sabbath, and light lamps before sundown for light (the Saducees would not light any lamps, and sat in darkness on the Sabbath). The cooking would be done, and at the point they light the lamps, they no longer do any work, and start reciting the blessings and Scripture over the Sabbath and over the food. They break bread and eat.

fri. after sundown
   in the glow of the lamps, the disciples finish eating, and then bless God for the meal (grace after meals).  They would have also most likely discussed God's word (they only had the OT at this point) and then sang some of the Sabbath Psalms as is the custom to this day.

sat. morning
    the disciples rise and eat a simple meal that was prepared before the Sabbath, or something that takes no preparation (like fruit). They then would have walked to the local synagogue (or the Temple if they were in Jerusalem).  The service consists of the prayer service (liturgy) that is a collage of Scripture sang and canted in an interactive service.  Next the scrolls would be brought out and some people would read from the Torah (law) and the prophets (each book had it's own scroll).  Then a teacher would expound on the reading and answer questions.

sat. afternoon
   the disciples stay and eat (break bread) in the synagogue and discuss the word and fellowship all day (and attempt to persuade them about the Messiahship of Jesus).

sat. just after sundown
   to mark the end of the Sabbath, they light lamps, and talk/fellowship on into the first day which started at the point they lit the lamps.

So, from the above imaginary account, I hope you can get a clear idea of the timeframe of Sabbath observance.  Meeting on the first day of the week (sat. night) was not part of the Sabbath per se, but an extension of it (they just couldn't get enough :)).  So to clarify, if one were to meet on sunday day, then they would be meeting on the latter half of the first day, not the Sabbath.

I think the above should clearly settle the timing of the Sabbath, so I would like to discuss some of the verses that lend ambiguity to the necessity of the Sabbath. Starting with
Rom. 14:1 - 6

Now there is a big difference in how I used to read this verse and how I understand it now.  There are a few things that changed it for me-
1.   the identity of the weaker brother
2.   the identity of the days in verse 5

In regards to #1 above, I read a very good book (with lots of really big words) called “The Mystery of Romans” by Mark Nanos.  This book I think made one major point and that is that the weaker brother is a Jew who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact, the weakness of his faith is that he doesn’t believe in the one God sent.  This also explains why he only eats vegetables, as this was something that Jews would do if they didn’t know if the meat was free from idolatry (at the time, most meat markets would say prayers to their gods over the meat, and the sages of Israel declared that Jews should not buy meat at a gentile market for that reason).  So vegetables were the way around that, since the idolaters didn’t usually say blessings over the vegetables.
If you read through Romans with this perspective, then it makes the whole book more cohesive.  When he talks about loving your enemy, he is talking about Jews that don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah as in
Rom. 11:28

Secondly, about the days in verse 14:5, to start with, this section is dealing with opinion, not Scriptural precepts (as in verse 1).  This book was written primarily to the gentiles who were fellowshipping in the synagogue in Rome.  Paul had taught them that it is ok to buy meat from the market, but if someone told you it was offered to an idol, not to eat it (1 Cor. 8:13, 10:25-28).  As I mentioned already, the sages of Israel didn’t allow Jews to eat meat from the gentile market at all.  Paul’s exhortation here is for a gentile not to pass judgment on a Jewish brother (who doesn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah) because they won’t eat meat.  Note that it is assumed throughout that the meat is kosher, Paul doesn’t mention it because it is laid out in Scriptures, and being in the synagogue, they would already know what God said can be eaten and what can’t.
So if we take this view, then the days mentioned in Scripture (Sabbath, Passover, Yom Kippur, etc.) were taken for granted that they were holy (undisputed), so what days in verse 14:5 do people have opinions on?  We know that in that time period there were no groups recorded that thought all days were holy (that is the antithesis of holiness- if all days are set apart, then there is nothing to distinguish one day from another and it is therefore no longer set apart).  There were also no groups that observed no days.  So what is Paul talking about?  In the festivals of Passover/unleavened bread and the Feast of Booths, they are celebrated for 7 and 8 days respectively.  For Passover/unleavened bread, the scriptures tell us that the 1st and 7th days of Passover are Sabbaths (no work). For the Feast of Booths, the 1st and 8th days are Sabbaths.  The days in between are called the intermediate days of the festival.  According to Scripture, there is no prohibition to working on these days, however, there were many Jews who held that all the days of these festivals were Sabbaths, and would have the same rules on all of them.  This is a tradition and opinion that the gentiles didn’t have to agree with, and Paul tells them that although they don’t have to do it, don’t get down on the Jews that hold that conviction.  To strengthen this point, note that verse 2 and verse 5 parallel so that –
“One person has faith that he may eat all things” is the same one who “regards one day above another”

-and-

“but he who is weak eats vegetables only” is the same one who “regards every day alike”.


So it appears the first person is a gentile believer, and the second a Jew who believes in God but doesn’t accept His Messiah.

Furthermore, this same theme is taken through the broken and grafted chapters, stressing that the gentiles should not be arrogant over the natural branches (that were broken off).

Well, I think that is enough for now, I’m interested to hear your response, and Silver, you are totally welcome to chime in, I’m interested to hear your take on this passage.

Peace and Blessings on you both.

-oneBook

4 thumbs, and 10 toes up BL!

Grace and Peace!

 ;D

AMEN BROTHER LOVE!

The entire world changed at the CROSS. The shadows of the old were replaced by THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever.

Love In Christ,
Tom

"The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE" (Romans 3:22).

<:)))><

    I understand that the Sabbath is Sat, and the day the Jewish faith worship, I think what I am confused about is the number day of the week Sunday is on.........is it in your understand the first day of the week  Sunday first day, Monday second day, and so on.....that is what I was trying to clarify.....The first day of the week as you have explaind begun on Sat evening and reaches into Sunday evening and it ends? And the reasons I ask again is because of the scriptures talking about the first day of the week, and they gathered together........ with this all said, Heaven is for anyone who believes in Jesus, son of God, died, was dead, and buried, and rose.....Sabbath being the Jewish day of worship very obvously scriptural sound, but then so is Sunday the Christian day of worship as the scriptures will support, and as you have agreed God will not turn his back on any who confess Jesus. So other than to clarify the number issue I believe I understand what your saying.
     Now if you say Sat is the first day of the week, I'll be totally confused again :P.......so be nice to me I is easly confused ;D

musicllover

Yes this makes perfect sense, and it seems to go along with the notion that Christians worshiped on a different day, in different ways than do the Jewish group, the weaker brother is a Jew who doesn't confess Jesus. And as far a christian  goes, couldn't that also be a gentile who doesn't confess? Neither group is too look down on another for the way they worhsip or the way the eat.......
      The New Testement wasn't considerd part of what the Jewish faith read each sabbath, I assume the Christians who gathered together would retell the works of Jesus, talk about his teachings, the miralce they had witnessed, teach others, and still use the books of Moses as well. In the Jewish standards I am sure this was considered a bad thing, Christians were considered heritics ect ect ect. If not for the persecution  and division between Jews and Christians the Christian faith could have easly died right there, (but not what God had planned) it is because of the difference between eating, days of the week to worhisp, ect ect the Christian Church had to flew away from the points of persecution. I would say that these differences are for the glory of God, NOT to tell another that they are going to hell.
    I would be most interested in how Silver understands what you have written.
     
thanks one book,
Jesus is Lord everday of the week,
musicllover

       Silver, you answered your own quetion a little further down in your own post. But for some reason we think a lot different.... You asked me,.what makes me thinkg that a person can get into Heaven who has commited murder, stealing?........I believe based on the scriptures that NO one deserves Heaven, but through the shed blood of Jesus and those who confess Jesus as Lord we have been given a way into Heaven.  Murder or not, Jesus doesn't have a sin scale, all sin is forgivable (excpet blasphmey of the Holy Spirit, and if a person doesnt' confess Jesus as Lord before they die)

.
 Maybe this is your problem, I don't study books alone, I study the complete bible. I see where the scriptures support each other, and base my understand on prayer, and the Holy Spirit. Am I 100% correct.....hardly, but I know that if I stand on the complete word that I am saved......You have failed to read any of the scriptures I shared with you Silver, I agreed that they kept the sabbath on Sat, they were Jewish, a division occured between the Jews and Christians at the death of Jesus. Christains seperated themselves and began to worhsip on Sunday, .....Observing a Sunday once or twice......lol.... ok, I am not sure that God cares about how many times they worhsipped on Sunday, You on the other hand seem insistant that those who worhsip on Sunday are going to hell....

Again I ask...do you believe the discplise went to hell?..    

It is proven by the scriptures they gathered on the first day of the week.....that would be SUNDAY.

So I'll end by repeating my question, its simply enough, since its scriptural to say Christians gather on the 1st day of the week, Sunday, you believe (the disciples, Paul ect ect) they went to hell?

musicllover

------part 1----------

musicllover-

You have elicited a 2 part post from me, a first on this newsgroup (I think).  Sorry for conferring you with the "honor" but I just don't feel that I am communicating clearly, although writing more won't necissarily fix that, I can't wait to take another writing class.

Yes, just to re-affirm, the Sabbath is the 7th day, and the first day is just that.  The corresponding days on are calendar are -
Sabbath- fri. night through sat. day
first day- sat. night through sun. day
second day- sun. night through mon. day

The first point I was trying to make is the reason the disciples met on the first-day was in order to keep the Sabbath holy (by not handling money, and setting the day apart by having a ceremony at the end, not traveling on the Sabbath). In other words, there is not reason to think they were setting it apart as a special meeting time at all for religious meetings, only for getting money, or they happened to be together after the Sabbath was over.  Our congregation meets all day on the Sabbath and we do the Havdallah ceremony at the end to set the Sabbath apart and mark the end of the day (at sundown sat.).  So we are also together on the first day of the week consequently as most observant Jews are to this day. Don't forget it was Jesus custom to go the synagogue on the Sabbath-
Luk 4:16



The point I was making about the Romans 14 passage is that it is not saying that some worship on Sabbath and some worship on Sunday, but that some think all the intermediate days of a holiday are holy, and some think only the one's God declared holy are holy.  In other words, it doesn't support the view that we should keep sun. unless the context is left out.

Additionally, none of the disciples were Christians, and neither was Jesus.  What I mean is, sun. observance was not practiced, neither were alter calls, there were no churches, and nothing that we would recognize as distinctly Christian.  If one of the disciples came into a church today, assuming they could understand English,  they would wonder why we don't mention the exodus from Egypt in our songs and prayers, and why we don't keep the Sabbath, and why we don't keep the festivals.
You see to them, Jesus was the Messiah because the law and the prophets (another term for Scripture) testified that he was.  The law and the prophets also tell us that the Messiah will not change the law, and if someone comes saying he speaks for God and does tell the people not to obey any of the laws, then that person is a false prophet -

Deut 13:1-5

In this passage, going after other gods is equated with not obeying the commandments.  This explains why Jesus clarified in Matt. 5 that he did not come to do away with them (that would be the equivalent of serving other gods).  He went on to add that whoever (Jew or gentile) teaches the law and keeps it, will be called great in the kingdom, while whoever (Jew or gentile) breaks them and teaches others to break them will be called the least.
He also stated that heaven and earth will not pass away before the law.

Secondly, the church is not mentioned in the Bible.  The word church is a Latin word that was used later to translate the Greek word ecclesia (sp?).
This word was previously used to describe Israel.  Check out Stephens speech-

Acts 7:37 - 38

The word congregation above is the same one translated church most everywhere else (ecclesia).  This is to make a distinction that doesn't exist in the Bible between Israel and "the Church".  From the disciples view, they were the righteous remnant of Israel along with the gentiles who believed, and through the Messiah, the gentiles became part of Israel, and God's covenant with Israel.  When in the NT they say that the Jews persecuted the "church" (ecclesia), what the NT writers are conveying is that the "Jews" that were persecuting them were the same "Jews" that Stephen points out didn't follow God in the wilderness.


----end of part 1-------

-----part 2------

To be saved, we have to have a covenant with God, in order to take part in the covenant, we have to be part of Israel.  Why?  Show me a covenant in the Bible that is made with anyone besides Israel.... there are none.  God doesn't have mistresses, only a bride (and only one at that).

The practices of the church today came partially from the Catholic church, which derived much of it's practice from paganism.  They pray to the "queen of heaven" who is mentioned as a false God in the OT (Jer. 7:18, 44:17,18,19,25).  Constantine the first "Christian" emperor of Rome was a sun god worshipper, and in his mandate that Sunday should be observed, he calls it the "venerable day of the sun".  He then goes on to forbid worship on the Sabbath on pain of death.  This is straight out of the anti-Christ playbook-
Dan. 7:25

I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't keep the Sabbath is the anti-Christ, but that they are inadvertently following his agenda.  Constantine when on to murder his own family (after he became a "Christian").

I would tell anyone not to take my word for it, but when you go back and examine the 1st century "church" what you find is much more like a synagogue.

Paul goes to speak in the synagogue every place he goes.  They continue to meet there if the synagogue accepts the message, but if not, then they are forced to meet in houses, etc. Note in James 2:2-

The word translated "assembly" here is actually the word "synagogue".  


By the way, the Jews who rejected the message really objected to the inclusion of gentiles in Israel without circumcision, not that Jesus was the Messiah.  Read the excerpt from a book that my wife posted on another discussion-

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=5004

The leadership in Jerusalem had issues besides that having to do with authority- if Jesus was the Messiah, king of Israel, then the disciples should be rulers of Israel (as Jesus said they would be).  Of course in the issue with Paul, he was outside Jerusalem where the leadership jealousy was an issue, and now the issue was with gentile inclusion jealousy.

In all this, we must realize that when we see gentiles in the NT, they are God fearers who go to synagogue, and follow the word of God to the best of their understanding.  The word was only the OT, and you can bet they were eating kosher, keeping Sabbath, etc. if they knew about it.  Think about it, if you were a believer and the only Bible you had stated "God said to do xyz" then you would do it!  Not only that, but all God's people do what it says as well (physical Israel).

So brother Israel, when you read Romans 10 and 11, realize that you have been grafted in to Israel by the grace of God, and that all the things that God commanded to Israel to do, he has placed on your heart (Jer. 31, and Heb. 8).  Note here also, the New Covenant is made only with Israel, and the Law that Israel had broke will be kept by all since it will be on their heart.  A friend of mine asked me once if I have God's law written on my heart, so I of course said "yes".  Then he asked me, what are the 10 commandments then?  At the time, I think I got a few of them right, but it somewhat illustrated the point that sometimes we get used to saying things without dwelling on the reality.

Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of edicts contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Blessings and Peace on you and all Israel

-oneBook

-----end of part 2-----

Point #1.) "All His commandments are Righteousness", (Psalms 119:172).

"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).

Onebook,
           Well thank you for the honor, the confusion is more on my part than yours, you understand completely what your saying....me on the other hand find it hard to understand that Christians didn't worship on Sunday, but they did gather together, for breaking of bread, or offerings etc etc. I don't disagree but neither do I agree. I guess it comes down to what some might call worship, fellowship or just people plan a night together to play cards or something. And because I've always been taught that Christians seperated themselves from the Jews after Christ's assention, so they began worshipping on a Sunday. I'll have to do some research to find any proof of that though.
       and again neither Sat, or Sun worship is what gets someone into Heaven, know amount of relegion is going to do it either......shoot people can make a relegion of going to the bar every Saturday night. It the condition of the heart and belief in what Jesus done.
        I have no intentions of furthering the plans of the anti christ, I attend church with a heart to worship, makes no difference if its Sun or Sat. everything that we do glorifies Jesus, we sing, pray, read scriptures, fellowship, take communion, Jesus is lifted up proclaimed savior, how is this inadvertantly furthering the anti christ spirit? Even the anti christ spirit has to flew in the name of Jesus and where Jesus is being glorified, on every day of the week.
blessings,
musicllover
             

Luke  6:46   "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"
Romans 6:16   "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ? "

 

SAVED--- SEALED--- SECURED


<:)))><

AMEN!! BL ;D

musicllover-

I am not saying they weren't worshipping at those meetings, I like you believe that we should worship 24x7.  The word translated worship in Hebrew is avodah (serve/work).  We are His servents, and as such we serve Him every day, which means we obey His commands.  Consequently, in order to worship Him on the Sabbath, we need to stop working, and hold a holy convocation, and set the day apart.  This is the Biblical mandate for the Sabbath.  He is the judge of how well we obey (heart attitude, thoughts, etc), but there are physical actions involved in the worship of God.

Let me say further that yes, we could keep the Sabbath and at the same time commit other sins, and it would not cancel them out, or somehow make it so that God will save us.

Let me also address the word belief, because I think that this word is misunderstood.  Belief as it is used in the Bible implies action based on trust in God's character and word.



Note in the above passage that the law of liberty (God's law) is compared to a mirror where we see the image of ourselves as God would have us.  God's law describes the image of the Messiah and how to demonstrate in a real way love for God and our neighbor.

Look also at this verse


Here, the Gentiles do what the Law requires even though they do not have the Law. In this case, Paul is using the term Law to denote the Jewish leadership.  Why do I say that?  Because the Jewish leadership forced Jews to keep the Law (and all their additions), but not Gentiles unless they were circumcised and became Jews.  Therefore the Gentiles are a Law to themselves (they enforce the Laws on themselves) and their conscience bears witness when they keep or break them.  Does this contradict Eph. 2? Not at all, neither of the above verses is dealing with how to be saved, but how to live after you are saved.  The fruit of salvation is that we keep the Law of God with all our heart, and when we break it, then we repent and God forgives.  This is the duty of Israel, and since all Christians are a part, it is our Christian duty.

You can meet any day of the week to sanctify and sing to God, but make sure you also set apart the days God said to, that is worship too, and not setting them apart is "knowing what is good to do and not doing it" (Jas. 4:17)

Let me leave you with a final thought in the form of a parable-

There was a woman who was wooed by a man and gave herself over to him. Eventually he was abusive to her, and would not let her go.  After some time, another man came and freed that woman, and married her and treated her well, and showed her real love.  The man and his bride would comemorate the special events in their relationship every year, until one year when the woman forgot about an event.  As the years went on, more of the special times were forgotten, and eventually, the woman started celebrating the special events with her husband on the days of her former lover.

If you were this man, how would you feel?

Peace and Blessings brother,

-oneBook

"Ye shall know them by their fruits." The class of religious people here described, profess to be Christians. They have the form of godliness and appear to be laboring for the good of souls, while they are at heart avaricious, selfish, ease-loving, following the promptings of their own unconsecrated hearts. They are in conflict with Christ and His teachings, and are destitute of His meek and lowly spirit.

And you'll know a true Christian by his/her attitude...or by his her fruits...because they will be to glorify God and not themselves...just a thought...i'll be back in the mornin...play nice..God Bless

Joshua

AMEN!!
Do I have to?? ;)

God bless all who read this posts.
Bob

I understand your parable, at the same time, no carnal man did what Jesus did. And Jesus did "it" so all people would have a way into heaven.
    I lay in bed last night thinking, and I know its sounds kinda wierd, but what would life be if we didn't Jesus, we judge as the ubove parable makes us do, with the carnal mind, we measure all the sins of the world,  God doesn't have a scale. And If he did, would he put not going to church on Sat at the top of the scale?  
   With out Jesus we could do anything we wanted, any wrong, or any right. But how would we know? There has to be right before there is wrong. What would there be to judge the wrong against and what would there be to judge the right by? If Jesus hadn't made away for us, we could all be living any life we choice, any sin, any time, who would really care?  There would be no eternal life, no rewards so just act as you please. The whole thought process makes me feel over whelmed with the magnatude of what Jesus done for us.....and WHY? What have we done to earn it, Jesus did all there was to do. We can't buy our way into heaven, or work our way there. The works we do are to glorify God not ourselves anyway. Any good I do is of Jesus, nothing of myself. Yet Silver would say you don't attend on Sat therefor you are going to hell.
    Observing a sabbath, or observing any sabbath is not wrong. Granted you (onebook) understands this still stating that Sat is the better day to set aside. And I'm saying that the day is a man apointed day......yes I understand the to observe the sabbath is a divine direction. Christians began meeting on the first day of the week to seperate themselves from the Jews, they were fearful they would be killed like Jesus, if having worship services on the first day of the week was going to send anyone to hell such as Silver S keeps insisting then I guess its one of those we'll have to wait and see games, All the disciples, and Christians who worhsip on Sunday to this day are going to hell.  I totally disagree with Silver's judgement. It explains that the disciples had hidden out in John 20:19, they seperated themselves from the Jews. And the guest speaker of the evening was Jesus Christ just risen from the grave, and then he delivered the Holy Spirit by breathing on them. Pretty good service I would say..... :P And on the first day of the week too. Sunday worship will NOT send anyone to hell, not even no worship will do that......BUT  not knowing who Jesus is will. That is the only way into Heaven.
   

musicllover

 silver....
a house divided against itself can not stand.......,
what good prupose would satan have of letting, or bringing, people togehter to worhsip Jesus on a Sunday?  
     
musicllover

John 14:15   "If ye love me, keep my commandments".

 Revelation 14:12   "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

Silver Surfer,

There are two Commandments of Jesus Christ, and anything regarding the Sabbath IS NOT among them.

You worship a day.  It is far past time for you to worship a LIVING SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST.

Love In Christ,
Tom

no it's not silly. you are more worried about the commandments themselves than the One who Abolished them. (Christ if you didn't get it the first time) and that comment would have had you banned if i was moderator..lol...here's a thought silver...like i said "YOU WILL KNOW A CHRISTIAN BY HIS/HER FRUITS and another thing since we're part of the body of Christ, you'll know one another by a sense of fellowship when you enter into the presense of another fellow believer...psst (That's the HOly Spirit living inside us if ya didn't know, the commandments don't make that possible) I'm done for the night...i got WORSHIP in the morning and i'm playing music...so i need my rest...lol. God Bless all who read this (and open Silver's eyes)  ;D night

In His Service,
Joshua

.....I obey God's command to observe a certain day,.....HEY ME TOO, its it great  :P you picked Sat and I picked my nosed.. :P oops....no no no I mean I go to church on Sunday. ANd I believe God does bless it as well.
    Am I being a stinker again?

Silver it is beyond my Christian understanding that anyone can claim they are the only ones going to Heaven. Does it bother you that other groups believe they too are going to be the only ones in Heaven? Why can't it just be the simple truth.......Jesus did it all, you won't answer this cause you haven't answered me before.......but If Jesus walked into a place....and worshiped, said a prayer or healed someone, blessed the event or time and it happened to be a Tuesday......would you still be saying Sunday Christians are going to hell? Jesus is our example, there wasn't a day or place the Jesus walked that he didn't teach, or preach, heal. This is the way we should walk. We fail most of the time, isn't life hard enough with out inposing some kind of Pharasee like rule over others?
       Anyway like others on board tonight I am tired......maybe tired of your line of reasoning even. I find it very sad that you a christian brother is so quick to judge and condemn Sunday worshiper to hell......not even Jesus condemned, he come to save.

musicllover

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  
  5:18   For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till [all] be fulfilled", (Matthew 5:17,18).

Not everything has been fulfilled !

Notice this Bible verse: "The law of the Lord is Perfect...converting the soul", (Psalms 19:7).

IF...the Law is gone....no one is converted anymore !
WHY ?
#1.) " for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.  (Romans 3:20).
#2.)" What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.(Romans 7:7)
#3.)" Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.(1 John 3:4)


" for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.  (Romans 4:15)...
..if there is no law, there is no sin.....therefore, no need for a Saviour
You're absolutely right !
 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  
  2:4   He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.  (1 John 2:3,4)

Silver Surfer,

Jesus Christ unlocked the door to your prison cell. All you have to do is realize the door is unlocked and come out.

Love In Christ,
Tom

"Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.  
  119:166   LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments".  (Psalms 119:165).

But without, Grace you don't have salvation SS. Salvation is the only way to the Father. I have my salvation, I follow the laws as best as I can. Even Jesus knows not everyone can follow the laws 100%. Do you follow the laws 100% SS?

"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12)  

You didn't answer the question SS.

Hey musicllover-

Here are some further thoughts...


The parable is not to say that a man can do what Jesus did, but to point out that when Jesus took us as his bride, He does have some things that He asks of us.  He has preferences as far as days he wants us to remember.  He doesn't do it so that we can earn our keep, but to celebrate the relationship He paid for with His own blood.


actually, He does, and on one side is each and every sin that a person commits, and on the other is the Lamb that was slain.  If He didn't have the scale, then His Son would not have had to die.


So which is it?  If it is divine direction, it is not a man appointed day.  In fact, when God created the world, he set the stars and moon in place to mark when the festivals (Sabbaths) happen-

Gen. 1:14
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will serve as signs for festivals and for days and years.

Some English Bibles translate the word "festivals" as "seasons", but in Hebrew the word is "Moedim", and is the same one used of the festivals throughout the OT (including the Sabbath).


Now if you really want to put Silver on the ropes, ask him if he keeps the other festivals (SDAs don't typically) ;)  
(Silver, do you keep all the festivals and Sabbaths?)

Additionally, when the "Jews" are mentioned in the NT, it is not referring to all Jews (otherwise the disciples would have separated from themseleves, and Jesus ), it is referring to the leadership and Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.  Remember that they wanted to get rid of Jesus because they didn't like that he was held as the Messiah by the majority of the Jews.  They were afraid to touch Him because of His and John's popularity-

Luke 20:5-8
 5 They reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, `From heaven,' He will say, `Why did you not believe him?' 6 "But if we say, `From men,' all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet."  7 So they answered that they did not know where it came from. 8 And Jesus said to them, "Nor willI tell you by what authority I do these things."

Luke 20:19
 19 The scribes and the chief priests tried to lay hands on Him that very hour, and they feared the people; for they understood that He spoke this parable against them.

And to address once again, they did meet on the first day in some places, but they were still meeting on the Sabbath as well and setting that day apart.  Paul is always going to synagogue etc.  Also interesting is that in Greek when it says "first day" it actually says "the first day from the Sabbath".  They still numbered all their days from the Sabbath.


And I don't think I can say this enough since it can be easy to lump all Sabbath keepers together-
I DON'T BELIEVE SUNDAY CHRISTIANS ARE GOING TO HELL
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN BE SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW
I WILL NOT SHOOT SPITWADS AT THE TEACHER... (oops, grade school flashback  ;) )

I do believe that in keeping the commandments there is great reward
Psalm 19:7
 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether. 10 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover, by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward.

I press the subject because I love the Sabbath of the Lord, and I hope that all the world will know Sabbath peace someday.


Not worshipping God WILL send you to hell, although I think when you said worship, you meant "singing in church", not "serving God".
I think people use the term worship incorrectly (as far as the Bible goes).  They usually mean praise (which would be singing or reciting) when they say worship, but that is limiting worship from it's rightful sense.  This may also explain why you mentioned in your post that Jesus did healing, etc. on every day.  I agree He did, but that has no bearing what-so-ever on the Sabbath day issue.  Perhaps a clarification on what sanctification is would help.  Sanctify means to make holy, to set apart.  To make holy is to make something the way God says to.  If you do what God says, it sanctifies what you are doing.  I.E. if you cease from working on the Sabbath and spend time with your family and faith community, then you are causing the day to fulfill the purpose it was intended for by God, and that glorifies God who sanctified it in the first place (set it apart for meeting with Him).  The Tabernacle and Temple had the same thing going on, when the priests obeyed God, the Temple became holy (sanctified by God's word obeyed), and God promised to dwell among Israel. When they desecrated the Temple (did things God prohibited, or didn't do things God commanded) then God wouldn't dwell with them.  

Let's see what Silver has to say about the other Sabbaths... Silver?

Blessings on you and yours-
oneBook

One book,
            I found some scriptures that I want to share.
      I mention a teaching that I'd heard several years ago, about Christians seperating themselves and part of that seperations was to worship on Sunday. They did seperate themselves, AFTER Christ assention. There was already several diff kind of Jewish beliefs for lack of a better word. As you said the Pharasees, Sanhdrin ect ect...... And then you have the followers of Christ.
     
   There can be little doubt for anyone reading this thread that Believer in Jesus CHrist were the underdogs at this time.  Rome could have cared less, killing anyone was a sport to them reguardless of there name or faith, and the Pharasees, felt they had gotten rid of the ring leader and wanted to do away with the rest of his cohorts. Meeting in secret, meeting in private homes, and sneeking around was not ususual. The name Christian didn't come up unti Act 11:26, and means believers in Jesus Christ, other names, THe way, believers, children of God, Children of Light, and a million others found through out the NT, Act 5:14, Rom 7:1 Chirstians are called brethern, to Rev 1:6 where christians are referred to as Priests.
      But I am glad that you still maintain that Believing in Jesus is the idea not what day you go to church on.
     You asked a question ......which is it, divine direction or man appointed......both, a teacher might tell her students to write there names on the tops of their papers. Some write it in the top left the best friends group, others write in the top right,...... are any of these kids disobeying NO....sure the teacher could correct the children, but she/he sees the children doing what they were told, although maynot the the best way. And she still grades the papers put a star on the top and hands it back to the child.
 
   I await Silvers answer to your question, but I believe he has been asked this before and has failed to answer.....so I aint holding my breath. Blue is a good color for jeans not my face...well unless I'm a smurf... :P
la la la lalal lalallallalalla ;D
blessings
musicllover

Silver Surfer, By placing your faith in Christ’s shed blood and nothing else, you can have eternal life.  Isn’t today a good day to place your faith in Christ?  There will never be a better time.  In fact, there is no guarantee of another day. Trust Christ today.  

<:)))><  

Silver-

I have mostly been chating with musicllover, but I was wondering, what are you doing on the Sabbath tomorrow?  It is the first day of the feast of booths and I was wondering if you are doing something, and if so, what?

-oneBook

musicllover-


Well, I would say the teacher said to put the name on the top left, and some of the students told other students to put it on the left. Thoses that listened to their peers and not the teacher won't get stars. The teacher isn't going to kick them out of class for that, but teach them the correct side.

Peace and blessings, may God dwell fully in our lives at this time of Sukkot.

-oneBook

LOL........ that is possilbe, but as a teachers aid, and going to be teacher usually the teacher will tell the students to put there names on the top right, BUT not always. In collage all the necessary name date, instructor goes on the top left......so maybe its the higher educated that sign on the left  ;D. In my case then I have had my name on both sides, that way I'll have my bases all covered....either way I am just thankful that I can have my name on the paper,  :D

blessings,
musicllover