Faith and Works ?

[musicllover]

Onebook,
        Here are the scriptures I posted for Silver surf, but he hasn't answered yet. How do you understand these scriptures when it makes it very clear that the first day of the week is Sunday, and several instances that they gathered together to worship. And what of the teaching that Christians choose to worship on Sunday to keep them seperate from the Jews. Have you heard any of those teachings? If its true, (christians keeping seperate) and the scripture are God's Holy word, and it is, then the discples did attend worship on Sunday and the Jews on Sat......so how does that relale for today. Is it right to say that Sunday worshipers are going to hell?

John 20:1
Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early......... FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, SUNDAY is considered the first day of the week,......... little further over in the same book, John 20:19 Then the SAME day at evening being the first day of the week, ......... Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples come together to break bread Paul...........1 Cor 16:2 On the first day of the week  let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collection when I come....(sounds like they took an offering from those gathered on the first day of the week). Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day and I ........ ( the "Lord's Day" has been written about in the early Christians writing as Sunday or referred to as the Lords Day, also the day the Lord resurrection) So your scripture tells us that they prepared spices on Fri, rested on Sat, and Christ rose on Sunday. Good deal, we are still on the same page.

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Chapter 24
24:1  Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.  
  24:2  And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.  
  24:3  And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
(NOTE: This Bible verse tells that the 7th day Sabbath was the day before....Jesus rose from the grave)

Oh ya, now your beginning to understand..... Sat is the Sabbath, also the Seventh day, and you just quoted from your scriptures on the FIRST DAY of the week, making it Sunday....I understand that it is the Jewish belief to meet on the Sabbath, but I'm not Jewish, I am Christian I meet on Sunday. I've heard it also taught that Christians met on a different day to separate them form the Jew.  But, here comes the problem, neither here nor there, Sat or Sunday. Simply because some worship on Sun, they are still Christian, still bought and paid for by the blood of the lamb.

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We are also told to NOT negelect the gathering of the saints.....so if there is a group of "saints" and we gather together NO matter what day it is, we sing, we pray, we worship.....and we call it church then I am sure that God is pleased. Honestly its what we do on the off days that really show our Christians faith anyway.
    ITs a real shame when someone believes because they have entered a certain building that they have immediate enterance into Heaven.

You're in luck.....the Bible never teaches that any building, attended on the Sabbath, saves anyone. Because the Apostle Paul held Sabbath services by a river, with a group of women, on the Sabbath.
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Yep, Paul held services on Sat, and then he went to church again on Sunday. So that only makes him miss Heaven by one day by your understanding. I don't believe that is how Jesus works....but hey I'll be big enough.....you go to church on Sat, and I'll go on Sunday and I'll meet you at the pearly gates for a first day in Heaven picnic....    

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Its the exclusion relegions that I have a real problem with. Its like say well thanks Jesus you tried man, but it just wasn't good enough for most of the world. Its like slapping him in the face. What Jesus done he done for ALL MAN KIND, he DIED was dead, with out life, took all the ugly sin and garbage of this world and pushed it aside so that those who believe can follow him thru........ I'm ready how about you?

Remember that God never made any of the 10 commandments, as a yoke of bondage....but as the Law of Liberty, (James 2:10-12).
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I can defiantly agree with you on this one too, neither does he make the Sabbath a yoke of bondage to keep some out of Heaven. Sat worship is not a HAVE too or then it would be the bondage you speak about, (that Jesus sat us free from for those who believe) but worshiping every day would be his preference I am sure. Its the condition of the heart, what we believe..... Do you believe Jesus is the son of God, do you believe that Jesus died for you...... isn't that the real issue here, the most important one.....not Sat or Sunday?  I guess I get a little heated when someone tells me I won't get to Heaven cause I go to church.......ON SUNDAY, again I believe that Jesus did it all on the Cross, if Sat is so all fired important why didn't Jesus die on Sat? Why don't we have worship service on Thursdays, I use to attend a wonderful women’s bibles study every Tues morning, we worshiped, we prayed, we sang songs, studied.....and I aint one bit sorry I did it either  Is God going to send me to hell for that..... NO NO NO.... (said with a high squeaky voice), ........ok I'm messin with you. Have a good evening.....back to the Books, well maybe I'd better go to bed first....tomorrow is the Christian Sabbath.....  .

musicllover

[nChrist]

Ollie Said:

The Sabbath is today, day by day for those that hearken unto His voice with obedience and harden not their hearts.

Some verses on the rest for God's faithful. If they have already been posted. Perhaps they are needed again.

AMEN!!!

The precious portions of Scripture you posted and others need to be visited often and carefully. What we are actually talking about is accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour. Jesus Christ is our ALL. The GOOD NEWS is not about Moses or the Law. The GOOD NEWS is about the Love, Grace, and GIFT of Jesus Christ to all who will believe and ask Jesus to come into their heart as personal LORD and SAVIOUR.

I give thanks and praise to God that Jesus died for me. I give thanks that I belong to HIM, that HE is in my heart, and I rest safe and secure IN HIM for eternity.

Brother, our GREATEST GIFT AND TREASURE IS a matter of great JOY - Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour Forever.

Thanks Brother Ollie.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Ambassador4Christ]

In this dispensation of God's grace, God justifies ungodly sinners by His Grace upon the ground of the shed blood of Jesus Christ through the means of faith. This complete salvation is bestowed as a free gift of God apart from works. Salvation is given to those who simply believe the gospel by a free will decision. My Gospel Corinthians 15:3-4.

[oneBook]

musicllover-

Let me clarify-
The days have names, but they are named with numbers.  Additionally, the Sabbath does have a special name it shares with all the other holidays (Shabbat). So we see that there is a Shabbat on the first and last day of Passover/Unleavened bread, etc. (see Lev. 23)

I see that you consider that sunday is the 1st day of the week, so you must agree that the Sabbath is the 7th, so I won't belabor that point.

As for as the verses you posted, let me start by clarifying how the Sabbath is kept.  The Sabbath starts on what we would call by our current week friday at sundown and finishes on saturday at sundown.  All the time from saturday sundown to sunday sundown is the 1st day.  This is because the Hebrews took their reckoning of days from the Genesis account- "and there was evening and there was morning....".

So, when it states that they were up late on the first day of the week, it means saturday night.  This makes sense in the following verse, since Paul would not travel on the Sabbath, and after sundown, it is too dark to travel.

Acts 20:7-12
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead.

You see, when celebrating the Sabbath, to this day Jews have a service at the end that drags on into the first day called Havdallah.  This is done in order to set apart the Sabbath (keep it holy) from the rest of the week.
This also would explain why the collection is done on the first day of the week, since they also wouldn't have collected money on the Sabbath-

1 Cor 16:2 On the first day of the week  let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collection when I come

Another interesting study is to compare Havdallah with the Agape feasts of the early believers, but that is a separate discussion/study.

In the Revelation verse you quoted-

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day

This may be better translated - "I was in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord"
This is a better translation in that it informs the reader what the following events relate to, i.e.- the era that is spoken of by all the prophets (there is another good comparison study).

I also wanted to address this statement-

And what of the teaching that Christians choose to worship on Sunday to keep them separate from the Jews.

This teaching came later in the church, and mostly happened because of the Fiscus Judaicus (Jewish Tax) levied by Rome on all Jews, of which the Christians were considered part!!  Since they practiced biblical feasts, etc, they were lumped in with the Jews.  At this point, Christian Gentiles started to hide all external Biblical observance, and even dump some all together.  Since the Gentiles had become more numerous than the Jewish adherents, that became the overwhelming character of Christianity, although it was not the same Christianity that Jesus, Paul, or the disciples practiced.

I also notice that there is a tendency to separate "spiritual" from physical practices, but this seems to be opposite the idea of spiritual that is proclaimed in scripture.  The whole idea of sanctification is to take the physical world and make it serve God, thus sanctifying it.  Holiness is accomplished in a physical body.  God placed our spirits in a body because He wanted holy people, He could have just made us spirits if he wanted us that way.  

And finally, as I said before, I don't think this is an issue about whether or not someone who doesn't observe the Sabbath is going to hell, but I pose this as a question to us who are followers of Jesus, to suggest that maybe we have not been walking in all truth, and maybe we can recover it still...

Blessings and peace-

Onebook

[Brother Love]

FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE

<))><

[Silver Surfer]

FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE

<))><

Yes !
And faith is demonstrated by works...the works, God performs, in the lives of converted people.

As the scripture says: "Ye shall know them by their fruits"


God even points out a people who have the faith of Jesus, because they keep the commandments of God:
  Revelation 14:12   "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

QUESTION: Are not the 'saints'....Christians ?  

[Silver Surfer]

FALSE TEACHING!

musicllover-

Let me clarify-
The days have names, but they are named with numbers.  Additionally, the Sabbath does have a special name it shares with all the other holidays (Shabbat). So we see that there is a Shabbat on the first and last day of Passover/Unleavened bread, etc. (see Lev. 23)

Yes, these are sabbath contained in the Law of Moses.
But, has nothing to do with the 7th day Sabbath which God instituted, at creation (Genesis 2:2,3).

And finally, as I said before, I don't think this is an issue about whether or not someone who doesn't observe the Sabbath is going to hell, but I pose this as a question to us who are followers of Jesus, to suggest that maybe we have not been walking in all truth, and maybe we can recover it still...

Breaking the 4th commandment (7th day Sabbath) is the same as breaking: "Thou shalt not steal....Thou shalt not commit adultery....Thou shalt not kill...etc.
 James 2:10-12 spells it out very clearly.

It is sin, and the wages of sin is eternal death, (Romans 6:23).

[Brother Love]

As the song says…
JESUS PAID IT ALL; ALL TO HIM I OWE.
SIN HAD LEFT A CRIMSON STAIN;
HE WASHED IT WHITE AS SNOW.
What a wonderful message of God's grace! What a God we serve!

<))><

[Brother Love]

"Faith", a word so often spoken, but so seldom understood. A word repeated by the politicians to gain votes, but so rarely used in its proper meaning for fear of being politically incorrect. A word haled by the religious in hopes of satisfying the "itchy ears", but so rarely preached according to scripture for fundamentalism doesn't fill the pews and offering plates. For those who seek the true meaning of spiritual terms such as faith, fundamentalism however is essential. Thus, we turn to the Holy word of God in confidence of being instructed for we know that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness." (II Timothy 3:16)

<))><

[Brother Love]

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

<))><

[Silver Surfer]

As the song says…
JESUS PAID IT ALL; ALL TO HIM I OWE.
SIN HAD LEFT A CRIMSON STAIN;
HE WASHED IT WHITE AS SNOW.
What a wonderful message of God's grace! What a God we serve!

Yes, And how ungrateful some people are....refusing to do, as Jesus Christ asks of them !!!

[musicllover]

James 2:10-12 spells it out very clearly.

It is sin, and the wages of sin is eternal death, (Romans 6:23).

Silver,
          I wonder what had happened to you, I worried that maybe the hurricans blew you away or something. I honestly don't want you to die before you figure this out, I would truly hate for you to pick the picninc spot.....you'd probably pick one that was next to a river that ONLY your church could swim in  
      I have posted several scripture for you, showing that the Disciple gathered on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Your saying that these great men, witness of Jesus Christ, writter of the Holy word, preachers and the reason the CHurch was spread are all in hell?
      But I guess it makes no difference what I posted your still insisting that any who worhsip on Sunday  is doom to hell.
      I am really curious, have you been raised to believe this, or is this a teaching you've come to believe? I understand that the word tells us certain wrongs, and those wrongs will cause a person to face judgement, some of those wrongs will cause a person to go to hell but its not so much THOSE wrongs as the addittude behind them, all sin is unforgivable except blashamy of the Holy Spirit.... or dieing with out Jesus CHrist. Do you believe a murderer can ask for forgiveness and enter into Heaven. Another example, the man hanging beside Christ on the cross as far as we understand didn't even attend a worship service...yet Christ told him he would be with him in pradise......so you or rather the church you attended has this figured out better than even God almighty.....Is it a scriptural promises? Or have you rewritten the scripturue....the promise is to believe in Jesus, he is the only way to Heaven, faith causes everything else to fall into place.... for example a person smoke, or does drugs....The Holy Spirit brings conviction  that leads to repentance and repentance leads to not doing that "sins" again. BUT  NOT attending Church on Sat, or Sunday.  What gurantee is there that ANYONE is going to heaven? NONE we don't deserve too....but thru Jesus.   Is this a little judgemental? pious, a pharisee spirit speaks thru your mouth.....and that is worse than attending church on Sunday or anyday of the week. You've not responed to any of my questions excep to sit on your judgemental pedistal and scream out of context scriptures.....and as Jesus said you are a white washed tomb full of dead mans bones. You speak with lies and self rightouse adittude.
    So why do you come here to this site? If only a certain number gets into Heaven, and since we are Sunday worshipers aren't you wasting your time. Your hearing preaching that God allow everyone to be born then to watch them go to hell, what for ? his ammusment? He let his son die for only 144,000 people and that is all Jesus blood was good for??....I guess God should have brought an end to the world when the last 144,000 was born. Sure would have saved me alot of heartache and man I could have been sleeping in on Sundays.
musicllover

[oneBook]

Silver,
while I agree that we should be keeping Sabbath, I don't see how you can state that other people are going to Hell who don't.  The issue is that if it is a sin not to keep Sabbath, then can't the atonement of Jesus cover that too?

Look in 2 Chron. 30:18-20

18 For a multitude of the people, {even} many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover otherwise than prescribed. For Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, "May the good LORD pardon  19 everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification {rules} of the sanctuary." 20 So the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people.

Notice that eating the Passover sacrifice while being unclean puts you in a death penalty situation (cut off), but Hezikiah prayed and God listened and forgave the people.  It was because they didn't know any better, and God saw their heart was in the right place so He even performed miricles of healing for them.

Remember also the words of Paul in Rom. 14:3-4

God is the righteous judge, and can make His servants stand

I think God is big enough to correct another brothers errors.  You have already judged your brother and sentenced him.  Just tell them what is good about Sabbath and defend your position, but don't assign their eternal resting place.

musicllover-
I think the 144,000 thing is from the JW's and I believe that Silver is in the SDA church...

[musicllover]

Silver,
while I agree that we should be keeping Sabbath, I don't see how you can state that other people are going to Hell who don't.  The issue is that if it is a sin not to keep Sabbath, then can't the atonement of Jesus cover that too?

Look in 2 Chron. 30:18-20

18 For a multitude of the people, {even} many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover otherwise than prescribed. For Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, "May the good LORD pardon  19 everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification {rules} of the sanctuary." 20 So the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people.

Notice that eating the Passover sacrifice while being unclean puts you in a death penalty situation (cut off), but Hezikiah prayed and God listened and forgave the people.  It was because they didn't know any better, and God saw their heart was in the right place so He even performed miricles of healing for them.

Remember also the words of Paul in Rom. 14:3-4

God is the righteous judge, and can make His servants stand

I think God is big enough to correct another brothers errors.  You have already judged your brother and sentenced him.  Just tell them what is good about Sabbath and defend your position, but don't assign their eternal resting place.

musicllover-
I think the 144,000 thing is from the JW's and I believe that Silver is in the SDA church...

Onebook,
        Yes, your right, silver has refused to answer any of my earlier posts so I wonder if he was coming from the JW postions or SDA's, since he never answered I use that as an example or our crazy his postions is being that those who believe in the 144,000 are the only ones going to Heaven too, they can't both be right.
       Silver's opinion is sad, the Christain faith is based on the belief that Jesus did all there was to do for us on the cross, and yet we have this one who says ya WELLL....... he sure did for ME, but the rest of you lazy slobs are dooommmeeddd HAHAHAHAH,   because you don't worship on Sat. Which is so crazy, that saying the 12 disciples are in hell, and all those who walked with Jesus, all those in the following generations of believer. Then along comes another savoir, one... Mrs White who comes up with the REAL salvational plan lol. If it weren't so stupid it would be sickening that any human being could change the plan that God worked thru Jesus Christ.
      I wanted to ask you and correct me, but you believe Sat is the first day of the week? And where is this teaching from please.
        I truly appreciate your open mindness, and non judemental way Onebook, that is the heart of a true Christain no if you go to church on Sat or Sunday.

Well got to go, our church is celebration its 100 birhtday today....can you believe that 100 years of Sunday worhsipping.....

Thanks, Gods riches blessing to you,
musicllover

musicllover

[Silver Surfer]

Silver,
       

     I have posted several scripture for you, showing that the Disciple gathered on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Your saying that these great men, witness of Jesus Christ, writter of the Holy word, preachers and the reason the CHurch was spread are all in hell?

Point #1.....no one is in hell, at the moment !
Point #2....Every one of the Bible writers kept the 7th day Sabbath, even though they may have observed Sunday once or twice.
Had you studied the book of Acts alone....you would have found that the disciples observed the Sabbath, 84 times.

     

But I guess it makes no difference what I posted your still insisting that any who worhsip on Sunday  is doom to hell.

Any person who commits sin  ('wages of sin is death', Romans 6:23........'the soul that sins, it shall die', Ezekiel 18:4)
What makes you think a person can commit murder, or stealing ...and still get into heaven ?

   

 I am really curious, have you been raised to believe this, or is this a teaching you've come to believe?

I was raised a Sunday keeper, for some 28 years, before I found out what the Bible really taught.

Do you believe a murderer can ask for forgiveness and enter into Heaven.

Yes, only if he doesn't commit murder again.

Another example, the man hanging beside Christ on the cross as far as we understand didn't even attend a worship service...yet Christ told him he would be with him in pradise......so you or rather the church you attended has this figured out better than even God almighty.....Is it a scriptural promises? Or have you rewritten the scripturue....the promise is to believe in Jesus, he is the only way to Heaven, faith causes everything else to fall into place.... for example a person smoke, or does drugs....The Holy Spirit brings conviction  that leads to repentance and repentance leads to not doing that "sins" again. BUT  NOT attending Church on Sat, or Sunday.

It is not a matter of attending a church, because no church can save ANYONE. It is a matter of obeying God. And the 7th day Sabbath is the ultimate test of faith !

 

What guarantee is there that ANYONE is going to heaven?

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates of the City", (Revelation 22:14).
WHICH ..fits ..PERFECTLY with what Jesus told people, when they asked him, how they might gain eternal life:  Matthew 19:16   "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?  
  19:17   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".
 

   So why do you come here to this site?

To deliver the "Everlasting Gospel" of Revelation 14:6-12. Which contains the 3 angels messages, that every person must understand, before Jesus Christ can come again.

Sure would have saved me alot of heartache and man I could have been sleeping in on Sundays.

Maybe now...you can.