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Silver Surfer
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« on: September 03, 2004, 11:02:42 AM »

    "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). There are many in the Christian world who claim that all that is necessary to salvation is to have faith; works are nothing, faith is the only essential. But God's Word tells us that faith without works is dead, being alone. Many refuse to obey God's commandments, yet they make a great deal of faith. But faith must have a foundation.  {FW 47.1}
     God's promises are all made upon conditions. If we do His will, if we walk in truth, then we may ask what we will, and it shall be done unto us. While we earnestly endeavor to be obedient, God will hear our petitions; but He will not bless us in disobedience. If we choose to disobey His commandments, we may cry, "Faith, faith, only have faith," and the response will come back from the sure Word of God, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). Such faith will only be as sounding brass and as a tinkling cymbal. In order to have the benefits of God's grace we must do our part; we must faithfully work and bring forth fruits meet for repentance.  {FW 47.2}
     We are workers together with God. You are not to sit in indolence, waiting for some great occasion, in order to do a great work for the Master. You are not to neglect the duty that lies directly in your pathway, but you are to improve the little opportunities that open around you. . . .
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2004, 02:39:27 PM »

 We are saved by faith and rewarded according to our works.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

 Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

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nChrist
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2004, 04:38:43 PM »

Silver Surfer,

Are you cutting and pasting from Prophetess Ellen G. Whites volumes? If so, they are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Bible, and we are not interested. They represent a gross distortion to the Holy Bible. Please read the forum rules.

By the way, I believe very strongly in the value of good works done on the part of Christians. They make our JOY IN JESUS MORE FULL. Go to the Scripture references, not Ellen G. White references, and read them in context.

The works that make Salvation possible were completed by Jesus Christ on the CROSS. My good works as a Christian don't add anything to HIS completed work. My good works are plain and simple - my appreciation of the completed work of Jesus Christ, my love of Jesus Christ, and my joy that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour. Good works done as a duty or done because someone feels they must be done are burned up. God does not appreciate works done as a duty or a burden. They are only good works if they are done in love and appreciation to our Lord and Saviour. They certainly don't lead to Salvation or maintain Salvation.

If you attach bondage, duty, and must to works, they are the vanity of man, worthless, and burned up. The opposite is what God wants - done in JOY, LOVE, and APPRECIATION to our Lord and Saviour. If our hearts are right in our good works, OUR JOY IN JESUS WILL BE MORE FULL. Look in your Bible Scripture references for "that your joy may be more full", and you will understand what God wants from HIS children. Use the Holy Bible, not Ellen G. White.

Tom
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2004, 06:27:13 PM »

Ephesians 2:8-10. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works least anyone should boast'.

Romans.5:8. 'God demonstrated His own love to us in this way, while we were still sinners Christ died for us.
Romans.10:9. That if you will confess with your mouth Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. Salvation is accepting by faith that Jesus Christ died for you-your sin-and took the full penalty and judgement for it, so that through His sacrifice, God can declare you righteous, and make you a child of God and a member of the Body of Christ. This is only the beginning of Gods work.

Romans 8:31&32. 'If God be for us who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him freely give us all things.'

Philippians.2:13. 'For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure.' What a lot of Christians forget is that it is God who saved us. It is God who keeps us and it is God who is working in us to make us more like Christ. We must also distinguish between how God sees us IN CHRIST, perfect and righteous [our standing before God] and our daily walk in all it's failings and shortcomings. [our state before God ] The first is perfect and never fails for it is based on God and His promises. The last rises and falls according to our obedience to His Word and whether we live for Christ and walk in the Spirit.


Salvation from the penalty of sin and life in Christ is a present possession secured for eternity.

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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2004, 06:31:23 PM »

Silver Surfer, God's one and only remedy for sin is Christ?  (1Cor. 3:11)

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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2004, 06:40:41 PM »

Hebrews 12:2. Says. 'Looking unto Jesus the originator and perfecter of our faith--and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.' Jesus said on the cross . ' It is finished.' John.19:30. When we accept the salvation that God freely offers us, we are accepting a work that God has been completely satisfied with. Gods holy righteous demands have been fully met by Christ's one offering for sin. Hebrews 10:14 says ' For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
Because of this we will never be condemned for any sin. Romans 8:1-4. Think about it, if we could be accounted for any short coming or failure then Christ's sacrifice is worthless, we were not perfected and God has failed. So why can we be sure of our eternal security. Because God is satisfied, Christ is seated and we are sanctified.


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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2004, 06:52:17 PM »

   "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). There are many in the Christian world who claim that all that is necessary to salvation is to have faith; works are nothing, faith is the only essential. But God's Word tells us that faith without works is dead, being alone. Many refuse to obey God's commandments, yet they make a great deal of faith. But faith must have a foundation.  {FW 47.1}
     God's promises are all made upon conditions. If we do His will, if we walk in truth, then we may ask what we will, and it shall be done unto us. While we earnestly endeavor to be obedient, God will hear our petitions; but He will not bless us in disobedience. If we choose to disobey His commandments, we may cry, "Faith, faith, only have faith," and the response will come back from the sure Word of God, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). Such faith will only be as sounding brass and as a tinkling cymbal. In order to have the benefits of God's grace we must do our part; we must faithfully work and bring forth fruits meet for repentance.  {FW 47.2}
     We are workers together with God. You are not to sit in indolence, waiting for some great occasion, in order to do a great work for the Master. You are not to neglect the duty that lies directly in your pathway, but you are to improve the little opportunities that open around you. . . .

Silver Surfer, it is disheartening to see so many Christians today do not have assurance of salvation.

Living in fear that any day they could either fail enough, turn back to their old ways or somehow blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and thereby loose their salvation. Most churches are afraid to preach assurance for fear that their members would think it gave them a license to sin. This way of thinking makes a mockery of God's grace and the liberty to which Christ has set us free. Galations.5:13. Romans.6:1&2

One of the most frequent arguments is that, "I chose to become a Christian so I can choose to turn my back on God." First of all, God chose you, [ No 7 above] you simply responded to the love that He demonstrated. Secondly, whatever way you turn God's everlasting arms are always there and as your loving Father He is guarding caring, helping or chasening you through every sin or problem that this life can bring.

The only way to blaspheme against or deny the Holy Spirit is to reject Christ as Saviour and only an unbeliever is capable of this.

What sin was big enough that Christ's death on the cross could not take away? Obviously none! So there is none big enough now to separate us from His love.

You say, But I know someone that was a Christian and now they couldn't possibly be.

The Lord even said, "Some will say to me in that day, Lord ! Lord ! did I not do all these wonderful things in your name and He will say I never knew you." Notice the Lord did not say that He knew them once but not now. Who are we to judge if a person is or ever was born again. We can be sure about many Christians by their life and testimony but we must be aware that there are many good people professing to be Christians who do not confess Christ as Lord. We must also admit that we all still sin, so who are we to judge how much sin another may commit and by the grace of God still be a child of God.

There are many other Bible verses and excuses that some have problems with but if we keep them all in the light of the above seven points we will trust God and His Word and give no place for doubts and distrust.

John .5:24 . Truly truly I say unto you, He who hears my Word and believes on Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE and SHALL NOT come into judgement but HAS PASSED from death to life. WHAT A PROMISE ! LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR !


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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2004, 01:03:25 PM »

We are saved by faith and rewarded according to our works.
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Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Yes, Faith is believing in what God says.
It takes faith, to believe God, when he says: "REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.."

There is no faith in Sunday worship services, as God's day...because there is nowhere God ever said it.
Quote
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Yes, after the Judgment, (Revelation 22:11,12)

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2004, 01:07:23 AM »

Silver Surfer,

You might agree that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY for Salvation. I really don't know about you, but I'm 100% certain that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY!

What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? Please list them.

Let me know if you don't have a clue and I'll list them for you.

Tom
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2004, 02:03:51 PM »

Silver Surfer,

You might agree that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY for Salvation. I really don't know about you, but I'm 100% certain that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY!
Quote
What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? Please list them.
Exodus  20:3   Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  
  20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:  
  20:5   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;  
  20:6   And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.  
  20:7   Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
 
  20:8   Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.  
  20:9   Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:  
  20:10   But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:  
  20:11   For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 
  20:12   Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.  
  20:13   Thou shalt not kill.  
  20:14   Thou shalt not commit adultery.  
  20:15   Thou shalt not steal.  
  20:16   Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.  
  20:17   Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's
  Duet.5:22   These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: ....and he added no more....... And, he wrote them in two tables of stone..."

QUESTION: was Christ there on Mt. Sinai ?
ANSWER:  1 Corithians 10:1   Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;  
  10:2   And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  
  10:3   And did all eat the same spiritual meat;  
  10:4   And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.  
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nChrist
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2004, 04:12:10 PM »

Silver Surfer,

You didn't list the Commandments of Jesus Christ, and I didn't think that you would or could. I'll list them for you with Scripture, Chapter, and Verse in a message I will post later today.

Your overall problem appears to be works and the law, Israel confused with the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, and denial of the purpose and meaning of the CROSS.

I plan to treat you like a Brother in Christ and help you with the TRUTH. In the meantime, I'll repost a post for your thought and study while you are waiting.

Tom
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2004, 04:20:21 PM »

Repost:

God's Grace - Our Works - Part 1

This is a little mini-study I prepared on Romans 11:6. The focus of the study is on "GOD'S GRACE" and "OUR WORKS". As usual, I have no desire to debate this topic. I would simply ask that you read this with an open mind and heart. If you reach a different conclusion, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

King James Version
Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Amplified Bible Version
Romans 11:6  But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless].

The key words in this Scripture are "grace" and "works".

G5485 (Grace)
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Note on Grace:  Scores of other Scriptures clearly indicate that unmerited favor and a gift that is not deserved or earned is the most appropriate definition of "grace" in Romans 11:6 and many other precious portions of Scripture.

G2041 (Work)
From e?´??? ergoŻ (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
_____________________
Compare:

2 Timothy 1:6  Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2 Timothy 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:8  Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Timothy 1:10  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Romans 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Continued....................Part 2
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2004, 04:21:58 PM »

Repost:

God's Grace - Our Works - Part 2

1 Corinthians 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The above and many other precious portions of Scripture clearly prove that the Grace of God is a GIFT, one that can never be deserved, earned, or paid for on the installment plan. God's GIFT is not an extension of credit that must be either paid for or returned. The full payment was made at THE CROSS. Any man who thinks that he can add to the PERFECT SACRIFICE OF JESUS with man's righteousness or man's works is insulting our Lord and Saviour.
____________________

Those who try to use other portions of the New Testament to prove that works are required for Salvation or to maintain Salvation neglect to consider the writer, the purpose, the audience, the time, and THE CROSS.

James is one of the most consistently misused and abused in trying to prove that works are required for Salvation or the maintenance of Salvation. There were many devout Christian Jews of the time who still had strong bonds to Mosaic Law. James and many others of the time were known for fairly strong legalistic leanings. The bonds to Mosaic Law were not cut overnight. Formal and informal councils were necessary to address these bonds.

James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
James 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:1-3 above should make it apparent that Christian Jews were the intended audience for the book of James.

One could and should ask if churches of the time were of one mind regarding Mosaic Law. The obvious answer was "NO", and the answer is still "NO" today. A companion topic, "works", had the same questions and the same answers. One could and should also ask the question, "Was there a difference in teaching between primarily Jewish Christian Churches and primarily Gentile Christian Churches"? The obvious answer was "YES!". There were formal and informal councils of the time to address these differences.

Continued.......................Part 3
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2004, 04:23:44 PM »

Repost:

God's Grace - Our Works - Part 3

Acts 21:18  And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Acts 21:19  And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Acts 21:20  And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Acts 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Acts 21:22  What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Acts 21:23  Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Acts 21:24  Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:25  As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Acts 21:26  Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

If one rightly divides the Word of Truth, there are NO contradictions in comparing James with Ephesians. However, James remains a popular argument for those who wish to:  (1) Rely on self-righteousness instead of yielding to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST; and/or (2) Hold on to all or part of the law for Salvation; and/or (3) Add man's pitiful works to the PERFECT SACRIFICE AND BLOOD OF JESUS AT THE CROSS.
____________________

There are many other portions of Scripture that appear to contradict each other, but there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. There may even appear to be contradictions from one chapter to the next in the same book, but there are no contradictions. This is simply a failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

As another example, what might you think that 1 John 1:4 means?

1 John 1:4  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

What might you think that 1 John 2:4 means?

1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Wait, you can't make up your mind yet. What does 1 John 1:8 mean?

1 John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Well, it appears that we are all liars, that we all sin, and the truth can't be in us, so does this mean that we are all lost? Wait, don't make up your mind yet. What about 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1-2.

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The members of the audience are Christians already. There are no contradictions in 1 John. A student of 1 John doesn't have a chance of understanding it unless they consider the purpose of the writer and the audience it is intended for. One must also read the entire book of 1 John. Anything less would be a total failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth. One would be claiming contradictions that don't exist. Further, there are no contradictions in comparing 1 John with Ephesians.
____________________

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour!

There is Love in Jesus,
Tom
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2004, 04:28:29 PM »

Silver Surfer,

You didn't list the Commandments of Jesus Christ, and I didn't think that you would or could. I'll list them for you with Scripture, Chapter, and Verse in a message I will post later today.
Quote
Your overall problem appears to be works and the law, Israel confused with the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, and denial of the purpose and meaning of the CROSS.
I have as much trouble with the Law as Paul did:
"Do we make void the law through faith ?"
GOD FORBID"
"Yea, we (Christians) establish the Law", (Romans 3:31).

It is the UNconverted person who ignores or rejects the Law of God:
"Because the carnal mind (UNconverted) mind is emnity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be", (Romans 8:7).

I plan to treat you like a Brother in Christ and help you with the TRUTH. In the meantime, I'll repost a post for your thought and study while you are waiting.

Tom
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