"The Passion" (Mel Gibson)

[Symphony]

Thank you, Tamarra, Saved4.

Tibby, I think Saved has a very good point.

The point of taking Jesus to Pilate was to elicit a death sentence(under Roman law).  

But Roman law, as primitive as it was, still required reason, or evidence.

Tibby, Pilate announces to them three times(possibly four), "I find no fault in this man".

Yet he gave sentence that he die.

Pilate contradicted, violated his own law--the most important one--capital punishment!!

Suppose Jesus had come as a Chinese, or today, as an American.  

Then we'd be saying, "Oh, the Chinese, or the American, are always like that, fighting among themselves and killing their own, etc."

God had to pick "someone" through which to bring Jesus later on.  He picked Abraham, a nomad, a "Jew".

If he'd picked, say, the American nomads, the Navajo, then we'd be saying, "Oh, those Navajo, that's just like them.  They killed Jesus.  And then, some nation, would go chasing after the Navajo, trying to exterminate them, ala Nazi-like."

No, Jesus' own creation, that is, mankind, the human race, killed him.

The human race killed its own Creator.   That's the point in all of this.  

"Jews" may have their eccentricities, as most ethnic groups probably do.  They are saying the Germans have a propensity to homosexuality.  Okay, so...

Whatever!

The ultimate point here is, Jesus was exhonoerated by neither his own(the Jews), nor the rest of the world (Rome).  And this is what I believe Mel Gibson's point is.  I don't think he's intending it to be antiSemitic at all.

He's just wishing to portray the vicsiousness of the human race--selfish, mean, self-righteous.

That's my guess, anyway...

 

[Tibby]

Who did he die for?
All of us.

Who put him to death?
The Jews of that day.

Pilate did go against Roman law, and his better judgment, but putting an innocent man to death, but tell me, is it better the keep the law or keep the peace?

[Tamara]

I agree...and if we were to see on film the ACTUAL way our Savior died, it would break our hearts.  He died the most gory and horrific death imaginable.  It would be classed as a horror film.  His death is recorded as prophecy in Psalm 22.
It is horrific that any human being suffer so, especially the Son of God.  His bones were out of joint, he was so thirsty his tongue stuck to His jaws.  
And He did went through this.......................for us.

Love..Tamara.

[Saved_4ever]

Who did he die for?
All of us.

Who put him to death?
The Jews of that day.

Pilate did go against Roman law, and his better judgment, but putting an innocent man to death, but tell me, is it better the keep the law or keep the peace?

From the viewpoint of Christianity it matters little because Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  This was planned and mapped out just they way God wanted it.

From a human standpoint Pilate was wrong because he sets the precident that it's ok to brake the law or surpass it for mob rule.  I really hope that's not your standpoint.  If so you aren't getting my vote and I hope you never lead anything of such importance.

How would you like it if we decided it would be better to let you recieve the death sentence, even though we knew you were innocent just to calm the masses?  Better yet how about your mother or sister instead of you?

[Tibby]

Yes, from a Christian view, it is a good thing Jesus died, so we can be with him. I’m talking talking from a Governmental view, did Pilate do the right thing?

No, I don’t think mob rule is a good thing. Plato’s original idea for the Aristocracy was a good idea, but it cannot be played out, as he proved himself (way to make a good point and disprove it, moron!). But so far, as for a Government that as shown to work, this Psudo-Democracy of ours seems to work great.

As for Pilate, I ask you again, is it better the keep the law or keep the peace? Both when possible, but in a situation where you are faced with the well-being of one, vs. the well-being of many, it would be foolish to choose the one.

Are you telling us that you would not break a law, even if it meant saving many lives? That being the case, you have lost my vote. I personally view the people to be of supreme importance when in a leadership roll. The laws, guidelines for them to follow. What if someone is sick and an Ambulance needs to get them to hospital? Can it not break the speed limit? What if there is a mugger attacking a women, and it is reported in progress? Do the police have the right to break every traffic law in the book to get to the scene of the crime in hopes of saving the women? The laws are for the people’s well-fare. When a law beings to conflict with this purpose, sometime it is necessary to override them. The real question is, is the Leaders here for his people, or for is Government?

[Saved_4ever]

You miss the point dramatically.  There would have been no riots over this.  How many times was Paul abused and beaten by the people only to have him later exonerated BECAUSE of the law.  They wanted many other people dead for preaching about Jesus as well.  They never rioted over the rest of them either.  Pilate will pay his price for doing wrong as will the rest.  I suppose you think Judas is alright as well.  Ieman after all he was just helping to keep the peace.  

You never answered my question either.  What if it where your mother or sister?  Would you execute them simply because the crowd wanted it and you thought they miht get unruly?

[Jabez]

Jesus death was meant to happen.If not pilate,then someone else,whats the difference?Too many times ive thought to my self if i was there i would have faught against those persacuteing Jesus,but with my limtied understanding i would have lost because it was already set from GOD on what was to happen.

[Tibby]

I could say yes for the good of the people, but you would tell me I'm lying.

I could say no, and that this is different, but you would come back with a "No, it isn't different at all."

Either way, you are going to disagree, so, just take your pick from one of those 2 answers.


There would have been riots, as the verse I quoted from Matthew says. Read your bible, and you would clearly see there would have been a riot. There had been riots before over Jesus, why, oh why, would this time be any different?

Yes, Pilate will pay, just like ever Firemen who ever drove through a red light to get to a fire will pay for breaking his own law. Pilate, as a leader, did the right thing by keeping the peace. Stop being so politically correct. I know the liberals would like you to believe "Oh, no, we have to persevere all life, no matter what!" REALITY CHECK! Sometimes one person has to be sacrificed to save the many, as is the case with Jesus. The state has to make hard decisions sometimes, do not condemn Pilate for doing his Job and keeping the many safe. He made a hard choice, but one that had to be made.

Yes, Jesus had to die, that isn’t the issue. The issue is, what was Pilate’s role? Was it wise on his part, or foolish, to do what he did?

[Saved_4ever]

It has nothing to do with saving every life and everything to do with curbing the law for mob rule.  Why do you really think OJ got off?  They didn't want any riots again.

You see you miss the point, that you set a prescident, that it's ok to do wrong as long as the angry mob wants it.  OR that as long as you get an angry mob behind you, you can then do whatever you want.

But so far, as for a Government that as shown to work, this Psudo-Democracy of ours seems to work great.

We don't have a psuedo-democracy.  What on earth did they teach you in school?  I am really worried about the youth of today.

We have a democratic repulic.  That's not a pseudo anything it's smart spo that mob rule doesn't happen.  Do you even know how our gov't works at all?

The electoral college decides who the President will be.  They DO NOT have to vote the same as the public chooses if they think it's not in the publics best interest. This is the point of having politicians.  OS we don't have to do all that they do(or should at leats). Now this doesn't happen often but it can.  I think you may need to spend some more time in class over how this country actually works.

[Allinall]

I think we miss a few points here in the scenario between Jesus and Pilate:

Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor's headquarters. It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor's headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover. So Pilate went outside to them and said, "What accusation do you bring against this man?" They answered him, "If this man were not doing evil, we would not have delivered him over to you." Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law." The Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death." This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to show by what kind of death he was going to die.  So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?" Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?" Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." Pilate said to him, "What is truth?"After he had said this, he went back outside to the Jews and told them, "I find no guilt in him. But you have a custom that I should release one man for you at the Passover. So do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?" They cried out again, "Not this man, but Barabbas!" Now Barabbas was a robber.


John 18:28-40

Jesus is asked twice here from Pilate if He was the King of the Jews.  To admit it would have been to stand opposed to Caeser.  Such a ground would have been suitable for death.  I like Jesus' replies!  "Do you say this or does someone else?"  and "You said it yourself, but my kingdom isn't earthly."  He admits what the truth is without saying anything directly convicting!  Then Pilate asks if they want Him released and they chose Barabbas.  Then...

Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him. And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head and arrayed him in a purple robe. They came up to him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" and struck him with their hands. Pilate went out again and said to them, "See, I am bringing him out to you that you may know that I find no guilt in him." So Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. Pilate said to them, "Behold the man!" When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, "Crucify him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no guilt in him." The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God." When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?" Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."
From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar." So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaic Gabbatha. Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold your King!"

John 19:1-14

Pilate has Jesus scourged as a hope that this would suffice.  It didn't.  The Jews tell of Jesus' claim to divinity - and that scares Pilate.  He asks Jesus where He came from, and Jesus replies to Him in a very interesting way: "You have no authority over me accept what was given from above...(paraphrased) Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."  He all but exonerates Pilate for the choice he's trying to avoid, but fears he will have to make!  "You sin, but he who delivered Me to you sin greater."  He paints for Pilate an incomplete, yet nonetheless bigger picture.

Did Pilate fall to the wishes of the people?  Yes - but with an understanding I believe, that he wasn't the power at work in this situation.  I don't believe he understood, but I do believe he knew his decision must be made.  And he washed his hands of it.  Shame that blood would never come off.  Point being that he was faced with a mob crying for death, but more so with the Son of Man bidding the same thing.

[Tibby]

Jason, why must you twist my words around to prove your point? No, it isn't not ok do to wrong BECAUSE THE MOB WANTS IT. You need to read my posts because you post. If you are a leader of a group of people, it is ok do what is best for them. If that means one person has to suffer so the rest can be benefited, so be it.

A True Democracy is a Direct Democracy. We do not have a direct Democracy, and in a country this large, we never will. This is a fact. If you took the time to read instead of rabble off your twisted misinformation, you may know that.

Have a nice day. Maybe go out and enjoy the sunshine a little. Enjoy this beautiful place God created. It might help with your unpleasant attitude.

[Corpus]

Tibby,

Pilate was wrong to condemn Jesus for the sake of maintaining peace. From a strictly political standpoint the 'greater good' of peace is acquiescence to injustice. The greatest lesson to be pulled from this part of scripture is the Christian responsibility for advocacy on matters of social justice. We see that a leader who willingly condemns one innocent man because of pressure from a mob is a coward. We learn that by engaging in the same activity 2000 years later for the sake of seeming political stability or to avoid dealing with a group of hooligans interested in mob justice we essentially re-crucify Christ. And our guilt and shame is no less than the Jews of His day.

You ask if many rather than one should suffer and die in the interest of maintaining peace. If the many are guilty and the one innocent as scripture so clearly points out, than your answer is an unequivocal yes.

[Saved_4ever]

Jason, why must you twist my words around to prove your point? No, it isn't not ok do to wrong BECAUSE THE MOB WANTS IT. You need to read my posts because you post. If you are a leader of a group of people, it is ok do what is best for them. If that means one person has to suffer so the rest can be benefited, so be it.

A True Democracy is a Direct Democracy. We do not have a direct Democracy, and in a country this large, we never will. This is a fact. If you took the time to read instead of rabble off your twisted misinformation, you may know that.

Have a nice day. Maybe go out and enjoy the sunshine a little. Enjoy this beautiful place God created. It might help with your unpleasant attitude.

I didn't twist anything.  NO ONE EVER wants a full democracy because it entertains mob rule.  Maybe you should do a little more politcal study to figure out some of these things.  I already studied politics and the like.  What Pilate did was give into mob rule and you apparently would to because you think it's for the greater good.  Corpus here understands that and has pointed it out to you as well.

I didn't rabble off anything.  You claimed we had a psuedo democracy.  We do not have a democracy we have a republic which is a reformed means of democracy.  Say the pledge of allegiance and you will start to understand.  I think you currently have a weak nderstanding of gov't and politics but you still have 4 years of college.  I hope you take at least one class on it.

[Tibby]

Yeah, that is it. Pilate gave in because he is a coward. It is easy to be a coward with the world strongest and best trained army behind you, right? What was we scared of? That the people would roit, and the Roman Soilder would hve to kill the hole lot of them? Yes, we was. Like ant good leader, the last thing he wanted was to kill. He didn't want these Jews to die, now did he? Kill Jesus, or the Jews revolt, killing many, and eventually, getting killed in the process. He would have had a mob on his hands. He already did. If you are not scared by that, then you are a fool. He had to tread lightly, or the scence you get really ugly, really fast.
 
As for the greater good being an acquiescence for injustice, The One and the Many is a problem that has troubled man for ages. I'm glad Corpus has figured it out for us.

America isn't a true democracy, that is a fact. You are argueing against me on a point that we are in agreement on.

Honestly, Jason, do you believe that the lose of one life is worth the lose of 10 lives?

Jason man, really, you need to lighten up a little. The world isn't going to end because I am wrong about sometime.

[Corpus]

As for the greater good being an acquiescence for injustice, The One and the Many is a problem that has troubled man for ages. I'm glad Corpus has figured it out for us.

Corpus figured it out???

Corpus did nothing here that scripture hasn't already clarified and Catholic social teaching spoken very eloquently on. This is NOT a question that has troubled man for ages. The answer has always been known. What has troubled man is actually following through, actually laying down one's life for another. Face it Tibby, a zealous mob intent on executing an innocent man for his words and egged on by a corrupt and institutionalized religious authority who feels threatened by those words is culpable for their riotous behavior. You see, Pilate wasn't so likely concerned about killing innocent Jews (he washed his hands of Jesus) as he was for how a riot in his province would appear to the Roman authorities.

Pilate would gladly have acquitted Christ, but gave way at once when his own position was threatened. Philo speaks of him as inflexible, merciless, and obstinate. The Jews hated him and his administration, for he was not only very severe, but showed little consideration for their sensibilities. Some standards bearing the image of Tiberius, which had been set up by him in Jerusalem, caused an outbreak which would have ended in a massacre had not Pilate given way. At a later date Tiberius ordered him to remove certain gilt shields, which he had set up in Jerusalem in spite of the protests of the people.

The historical record shows him to be nothing more than calculating in his decisions, and his judgment regarding Christ exemplifies it perfectly and leaves a message for us all.