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Author Topic: USA in prophecy?  (Read 20494 times)
FayeC
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2004, 12:36:30 AM »

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.   Smiley

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2004, 02:36:50 PM »

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.   Smiley

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?

 Huh
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2004, 02:48:11 PM »

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.   Smiley

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?

 Huh
I know Brother, I said the same thing.
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2004, 12:02:03 PM »

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.   Smiley

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?

FayeC, you are not alone in this belief.   Many see America as Mystery Babylon.    They make a compelling argument too, but to me it does not agree with everything said about Mystery Babylon in scripture.

First of all, the falling away you mention is never isolated to one nation.   Yes it may happen in large in America because of the numerous believers who reside here, but scripture does not mention a nation falling away in regards to the Apostasy.

As for Mystery Babylon, the angel describes her as a city, sitting on seven hills over many tongues and people.   She rides the beast rising up out of the water.   She is drunk with the blood of the Saints and PROPHETS.   Some try to say New York is the city, but New York is not responsible for killing saints and prophets, at least not so far.  

Rev 17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

7 Kings, five are fallen, and one is, and another is to come.   To be a king, one needs a kingdom.   Who were the five fallen Kingdoms before Johns time?   Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Assyria....all fell before Johns time.  Now (Johns time), one IS and one is to come, and when it does, it will CONTINUE for a short time.  Which Kingdom was around in Johns time?  ROME!   We know that kingdom also ceased to exist, but yet the EU today calls itself Revived ROME...continuing!   Thats 7 kingdoms, 5 fallen, one that IS (or was in Johns time) and one that was to come, and in our day HAS returned!   The woman that rides THIS beast, will be a city, and will sit on 7 hills, will rule over many tongues and people, will use sorcery, have great wealth, and will be responsible for killing Saints and Prophets.   Hardly seems to fit America when viewed scripturally, at least to me it doesn't.    

Notice also that the 10 horns will hate the whore and give their kingdoms over to the beast (Rome as I see it)...

Rev 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17  For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This may sound similar to America also, but again, America is not a city on seven hills, nor does she reign over the 10 horns (10 members of the new revived Rome).   For America to match the harlot, it has to agree with Scripture 100%, not just sound similar.   Its highly likely that Mystery Babylon will not be known for sure until after the rapture takes place, but it is already becoming clear who the 10 horns are, and America hardly seems to be controlling them or riding on them.  

Who knows, maybe America will fit the mold better in time, but right now it does not IMO.   America seems to be too hated by the rest of the world to have any hopes of ruling the EU or many other nations.   We will just have to wait and see....but I'm not sure Mystery, Babylon the Great will show its ugly head until after the rapture anyways.


Grace and Peace!

(edited for spelling errors)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2004, 12:14:12 PM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2004, 01:17:13 PM »


I personally donít believe America is overlooked.   Which leaves the burning question, why we are not mentioned in prophecy?   My conclusion is, either America is destroyed, or crippled to the point that we are no longer what we are now.    The only logical conclusions one could draw from that is, by a war, terrorist act, natural disaster, or possibly the rapture.   Knowing what 911 did to the country alone, imagine how the rapture could impact our nation and world power structure.   All of these are certainly possibilities though.    One thing seems clearÖAmerica cannot remain what it is today if a Revived Roman empire is to become the powerful worldly kingdom that treads on and destroys the rest of the world as mentioned in Daniel.

There are many people who have tried to place us in prophetic passages, but none of them are quite clear, at least to me.   The biggest argument is that America is somehow mystery babylon, but this does not add up to me for many reasons.    I donít have time to elaborate on this as I am currently at work.    

Grace and Peace!
If America is not specifically referred to in Bible prophecy, what are the options for its future? If the Lord does not return for some time, the present superpower status of the United States could certainly fade, since it has been little more than a century that America has been a powerful presence on the world stage. However, if you believe, as most pre-trib scholars do, that the signs are ripe for the soon return of Jesus, then the question of America's fate in the near future is a relevant one. Let's look at the four options suggested by Mark Hitchcock.

First off; "America will still be a powerful nation in the last days, but the Lord simply chose not to mention her specifically."

This is possible, but it seems unlikely. In Scripture, the dominant political and military power in the end times is centered in the Mediterranean and in Europe. The scriptural silence concerning America seems to indicate that by the time the tribulation arrives, America will no longer be a major influence in the world.

Since America is the major player in the world today in every arena, it is  suggested three additional options that help address how this demise could occur.

Second; "America is not mentioned specifically in Scripture because she will be destroyed by other nations. She will suffer a fall from the outside."

Third; "America is not mentioned in Bible prophecy because she will have lost her influence as a result of moral and spiritual deterioration. She will suffer a fall from the inside."

Forth; "America will be brought to her knees by the Rapture. The Rapture is key" I feel this provides three main reasons why this is the best option:

First, America is the number one ally and defender of Israel. Ö Without the support of the United States, Israel would be incinerated in a matter of days by her hostile Arab neighbors.

But Israel is pictured in Scripture as a thriving nation in the end times. Therefore, unless the world scene changes dramatically, I believe that America will remain strong as a nation until the beginning of the end times. Until the Rapture, the United States will continue to serve as Israel's chief ally.

Second, we know from Scripture that after the Rapture, the Antichrist will come to Israel's side and make a seven-year treaty with her (Daniel 9:27). But where is America in that scenario? Why aren't we around as Israel's chief ally and as the major world power? (Daniel 2:44-45; 7:23-25) This strong presence of Europe indicates to me that something will have happened to America that shifts world power back to Europe.

Third, if America remains strong up to the time of the Rapture but is then replaced by Europe as the world's superpower, what does this tell us?

I believe it tells us that America will be brought to her knees by the Rapture. The Rapture is key. The Rapture will change everything.

Look at the statistical evidence of the religion of America compared to other nations to demonstrate that the sudden withdrawal of true believers; even if they represent only a portion of those calling themselves "born again" would be staggering. Millions of people will suddenly be gone, many of them in key positions in the religious, economic and political spheres. Europe, with little religious influence, will barely be effected by the Rapture. The resulting chaos will be enormous.

In a chapter entitled "America in the Last Days," Hitchcock describes what a post-Rapture America will look like. "Simply stated, the main view is that in the end times, America will be absorbed into Antichrist's reunited Roman Empire. The United States will become a part of the end-time confederacy of Western nations."

In light of the flag waving and renditions of "God Bless America" following September 11, which persist even two years after he wrote his book. Hitchcock suggests in a chapter entitled "God Bless America!" that under the Rapture option, God can continue to bless America right up to the Rapture. There are three keys to this: blessing the Jewish people, faithfully sharing the Good News of salvation with a needy world, and by being just, or practicing righteousness in our own lives and promoting righteousness in the society at large.

The question of America's future in light of prophecy requires careful study-and perspective. An understanding of history will show that ours is not the only age when the Lord's return seemed imminent. The signs, as Mark Hitchcock suggest, do seem clearer today than ever before. That is why it is important to study prophecy, while at the same time steadfastly observing the two great commands Christ left his disciples: the Great Commandment (love God and others) and the Great Commission (spread the gospel and make disciples). Along with blessing the Jewish people, these are essentially Mark Hitchcock's points in seeking God's continued blessing on America.

Resting in the Lord's arms.
Bob
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2004, 01:32:29 PM »

Mr. Hitchcock makes some good points DW...I would agree.   I certainly hope the Rapture is the reason.  Either way, we need to put on the whole armour of God and share the good news while we can!  

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2004, 02:45:14 PM »

Just an added thought here. With the tribulation, the possibility of natural disasters (doesn't the Bible say 1/3 the world will be destroyed?) and the enemies that the U.S. has might possibly make the U.S. completely non-existent?

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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2004, 02:56:51 PM »

What I am saying here is a combination of events and not just one singular event.

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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2004, 02:58:32 PM »

Yes, 1/3 of mankind is killed during the 4th seal alone.   While many nations can be named in the Gog/Magog war, and the battle of armageddon, America is sorely absent, unless she is destroyed or assimilated into Europe somehow.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2004, 03:01:56 PM »

I said tribulation when I meant rapture. Sorry, I'm really not with it today.

What I was referring to is Luke 21:11 not the 4th seal. I was getting them confused?

I admit that I am weak in endtimes prophecies, that is why I am enjoying your and DW's posts so much. It gives me much to study and pray about.



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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2004, 03:11:11 PM »

I said tribulation when I meant rapture.



Quote
What I am saying here is a combination of events and not just one singular event.

This makes sense to me PR, but only God knows for sure.   I have always thought the rapture would devistate America supremecy in the world power structure not to mention our economy.   This would certainly make us a candidate for take over by force, or cause us to become reliant on the new world power, the EU.   I hope really hope its due to the rapture, but I trust the Lord will bring it to pass as He sees fit.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2004, 01:27:11 AM »

Removing Jesus

It wonít be long and all those ACLU employees will be out of a job.

Will they cry out because they have no quest? No, they will celebrate their victory in ridding America of the horrors of Christianity.

How will they do this? Oh, they wonít win victory on their own. Very soon Jesus Christ will appear with a shout and the blast of the trumpet and all those who believe on His Name living and dead will rise up and meet Him in the air.

But that Biblical truth will be lost on the ACLU and anti-Christian crowd because they wonít see it happen. They will see the after effects but not the actual event takes place. All they will know is they finally figured out the right combination of lawsuits to rid the country of all those troublesome people.

Do you think they will care what happened to us? Of course not. They will be overjoyed they finally accomplished their mission. We are a thorn in their flesh and as long as we are here they will fight to take away our rights to religious freedoms.

My own ancestors came to America in 1629 with John Winthrop. They were the Puritans. I am a descendent of many Winthrop followers. They came to worship God freely. They came to make a new nation in which their descendents could worship God as they pleased and be free from tyranny. They gave all Americans and me a great gift. Real freedom. They formed it. They shaped it. They molded it. They prayed over it. Then they made a free nation for all people.

I think that many of our American ancestors would be turning over in their graves right now over the ACLU and other groups like them. They would revolt and go to war to stop the foolishness going on right before our eyes.

Their blood cries out from the ground to all of us. We must stop the ACLU. We must stand up and fight this politically correct garbage on every front. We must not let go of one more icon upon which our country was founded.

We must insist the schools teach history as history was and is. We must insist our children and grandchildren receive an education upholding the principles upon which our country was founded. We must not let schools stomp out the mention of God or religion in our countryís founding documents and in the words of our founding fathers.

Our children and grandchildren deserve the right to know how and why our country was founded. They need to know who our founding fathers were and what their goals were and exactly why they wrote the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence as they did. They need to know exactly why we have a Bill of Rights and why it was written for every American to come.

They need to know these God-fearing men and women so they can know why America is the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

They need to know why the Pilgrims had a Thanksgiving Day and what it meant to them. They didnít celebrate to just give thanks to the Native Americans. They gave thanks to the Almighty God for granting them life and helping them survive the harsh conditions in their new land. They were glad to be alive....to have made it another year.

They faced many setbacks and faced trials and difficulties they never imagined. Many of them died that first year. The survivors were truly grateful to God for seeing them through it all.

The world hates Jesus Christ. He said it did. He also said that if the world hates you to remember it hated Him first. The world and the ACLU will stop at nothing to destroy everything Christian from in front of their eyes, ears and minds. They want to erase Christianity from the worldview.

I donít know about you but Iím going to do everything I can to keep these zealots from removing Christianity before the Rapture of the Church takes place. Letís drive them into the sea and stop this evil among us before it is too late.

http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=9550
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« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2004, 05:36:31 PM »

Quote
Dreamweaver Said,

I donít know about you but Iím going to do everything I can to keep these zealots from removing Christianity before the Rapture of the Church takes place. Letís drive them into the sea and stop this evil among us before it is too late.

Brother Bob,

I'm with you. I pray that all of us stand and fight to the last minute.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
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« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2004, 08:04:09 PM »

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.   Smiley

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?

FayeC, you are not alone in this belief.   Many see America as Mystery Babylon.    They make a compelling argument too, but to me it does not agree with everything said about Mystery Babylon in scripture.

First of all, the falling away you mention is never isolated to one nation.   Yes it may happen in large in America because of the numerous believers who reside here, but scripture does not mention a nation falling away in regards to the Apostasy.

As for Mystery Babylon, the angel describes her as a city, sitting on seven hills over many tongues and people.   She rides the beast rising up out of the water.   She is drunk with the blood of the Saints and PROPHETS.   Some try to say New York is the city, but New York is not responsible for killing saints and prophets, at least not so far.  

Rev 17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

7 Kings, five are fallen, and one is, and another is to come.   To be a king, one needs a kingdom.   Who were the five fallen Kingdoms before Johns time?   Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Assyria....all fell before Johns time.  Now (Johns time), one IS and one is to come, and when it does, it will CONTINUE for a short time.  Which Kingdom was around in Johns time?  ROME!   We know that kingdom also ceased to exist, but yet the EU today calls itself Revived ROME...continuing!   Thats 7 kingdoms, 5 fallen, one that IS (or was in Johns time) and one that was to come, and in our day HAS returned!   The woman that rides THIS beast, will be a city, and will sit on 7 hills, will rule over many tongues and people, will use sorcery, have great wealth, and will be responsible for killing Saints and Prophets.   Hardly seems to fit America when viewed scripturally, at least to me it doesn't.    

Notice also that the 10 horns will hate the whore and give their kingdoms over to the beast (Rome as I see it)...

Rev 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17  For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This may sound similar to America also, but again, America is not a city on seven hills, nor does she reign over the 10 horns (10 members of the new revived Rome).   For America to match the harlot, it has to agree with Scripture 100%, not just sound similar.   Its highly likely that Mystery Babylon will not be known for sure until after the rapture takes place, but it is already becoming clear who the 10 horns are, and America hardly seems to be controlling them or riding on them.  

Who knows, maybe America will fit the mold better in time, but right now it does not IMO.   America seems to be too hated by the rest of the world to have any hopes of ruling the EU or many other nations.   We will just have to wait and see....but I'm not sure Mystery, Babylon the Great will show its ugly head until after the rapture anyways.


Grace and Peace!

(edited for spelling errors)

Oh yes, the "falling away" is indeed isolated to one nation, for it goes hand in hand with the "abomination of desolation".

Jesus said in Mat.24:15 that the falling away and the abomination of desolation would happen in "the holy place", and for us to understand where "the holy place" is, he points us to the book of Daniel.

Dan.9:26 says, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy "the city" and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined."

"Threescore and two weeks" means the year 62.  1962 is the year in which daily prayer was removed from America's schools, thus "Messiah was cut off".

"The people of the prince" (prince of darkness) in that verse means "the beast"; the son(s) of perdition.

"City" in that verse means the "little horn"; or Revelation's "Babylon".  Translated, they mean "America".

"Sanctuary" means "the Christian Churches in America.

Please don't underestimate what America may do in the future in regards to the killing of the saints and prophets in our nation.  Even now America will not allow for Christ to be mentioned at Christmas in the classrooms of this country.
Better ask yourself, "What if in the future, the Christians in our nation began to defy the laws which America has enacted against Christ.  What do you think might happen to them?, especially during the tribulation.
Just something for you to think about.
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2004, 12:06:44 AM »

FayeC  Smiley

It is quite obvious that Jerusalem is is the City that Daniel is talking about...because he even names the city in 9:25.    It is also quite obvious both Jesus and Daniel were talking about the Holy Place in the temple of God.   When was messiah cut off?   In 1962, or when Christ was crucified?    I wish to be gentle here, but you are translating things in scripture that need no translation.   The text makes plain sense.  Why do you seek sense that fits a model, rather than letting the text speak for itself?   We could make up anything we like about the text this way.

China for example forbids Christian prayer in school.  Its against the law to own a bible.  People caught preaching the gospel are thrown into jail.   BTW there was a China/India  War in 1962!   Theres the threescore and two weeks!   Wink  Using this method of interpretation, I could argue that Daniel was surely talking about China more than America.   See what I mean?   We can make it mean anything we want this way....But we both know Daniel is not talking about China.  (at least I hope we do)


I really mean this in the nicest way possible.   It just appears you are spiritualizing every other word for the sake of making it fit your pre-conceived idea.   This will only lead to errors.  

When the text make plain sense, seek no other sense.  

Grace and Peace!

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