The Word of God vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[twobombs]

There are 2000 years between 69 and 70, not something to be sneezed at....

[Reba]

How many between    years 1 and 2   or 2 and 3  or 3 and 4.....20 and 21   ....34 and 40  ?

[Bronzesnake]

Mat 24:21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22   And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Dan 12:6   And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7   And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

1 + 2 + 0.5 = 3.5 years made up of 360 days, halfway the 70th week (one way or the other; it *is* separated and has always been)

 Please clarify your position.

 We pre-tribs believe we will be raptured before God's wrath. We believe tribulation is God's wrath in action. We also believe that many will be saved during the tribulation. So the verses you pasted such as Mat 24:22" the elect's sake" relates to them.

As far as the reference to Daniel's 70th week...I don't see the point you are trying to make. We believe satan will take control of earth for seven years. The first three and a half years by means of spiritual possession of a world leader who appears to be a great peace maker. The final three and a half years, satan takes over in physical form and claims to be God.

 We believe satan signs a seven year peace pact, where the world will be at peace for the first time in recorded history. However, it is a false peace...In the middle of the peace treaty things fall apart, and wars break out. At the end of the seven years, the Lord returns from Heaven with His saints, as is depicted in Rev 19:14 and wipes out all the armies of satan. satan and company are then tossed into the pit for the thousand year reign of Jesus and His saints.

You good folks have totally ignored Rev 19:14, probably due to the fact that you can not adequately explain how His saints (us) are described following Jesus from Heaven to the earth. God says we were in Heaven.

 Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  


 Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  


 Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  


Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  


 How did we get there? Rapture 1Th 4:16

 When did we get there? Before Wrath or Tribulation. Rev 4:1

 You also pass by...1Th 4:16-18

1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

 If, as I believe, these verses are describing a pre-trib rapture, then I would expect that there should be some corroborating evidence to be found in Revelation, before wrath or tribulation begin...you will agree, no doubt.

 If I am wrong, and the mid-trib view is correct, then the evidence will be found in Revelation at the appropriate place which corresponds with a rapture during the wrath or tribulation. Ditto for pre-wrath

 If this event which depicts His saints rising up to the clouds to meet Him, happens at his second coming, then the evidence will be found in Revelation 19 somewhere before 19:14 which depicts His saints returning to earth from heaven.

 So where is the corroborating evidence found in the Bible?
Let's see...

 We must find a place where we see...The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

 Where can these elements be found?

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.  

 Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.  


 Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;  


 Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.  

 So here in Rev 1 we have the Lord shouting...
a great voice, as of a trumpet

Seven angels accompany Him "I saw seven golden candlesticks"

the Lord appearing to John while he was on the Isle of Patmos. The Lord himself shall descend from heaven


Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 Here in Rev 4:1 we once again hear the trump of God. The interesting thing is that this is the last time you can find the trump of God being sounded in Revelation.
This lines up perfectly with...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

  1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 So you can find all the elements occurring in Rev 1 & Rev 4 which is well before wrath and tribulation.

 Like I've stated before...If I'm wrong about the timing, I'll catch the flight whenever it leaves the station. The fact that we are described in Rev 19:14 returning with Jesus from Heaven, proves we were Raptured, otherwise we wouldn't have been in Heaven.

Bronzesnake

[Reba]

I can not lay out my thoughts as nicely as  you Mr. Snake so maybe  my scattered thoughts will scatter your brain.


Jesus tells us the  resurrection is the last day. John 6 and john 12.. Jesus uses the words 'last day' not last days but day (singler) as in time certain. I would conclued from the creators use of the phrase 'last day' that there will be no more 'time' no more days the calandar stops.  Any thoughts?

My biggest problem in agreeing wiht the timing you all are talking about is Revelation 1 verses 1 - 3 .


I just dont get the skipping of time ... year 67, 68, 69,. . . . . . .  . . . . . . 70?  Show me scripture that you believe shows God timing to be out of wack.

[twobombs]

Bronzesnake : the problem here is that 90% of the scriptures you use in your last post are also my defense for a mid-trib (or: shortened trib) Albeit with a different interpretation, and as we are speaking of a mere 3.5 years in time I beg to differ, and refer to my website http://surf.to/twobombs for more explanations of my view. (no hard feelings, but i'm just trying avert a loophole here)

Reba: the gap is caused by the rejection of the Jew on the square.
God send them on diaspora for 2000 years, and has collected them the last 40 years or so back to land, setting the profetic clock to tick the last years (of weekdays) away.

[Reba]

Bronzesnake : the problem here is that 90% of the scriptures you use in your last post are also my defense for a mid-trib (or: shortened trib) Albeit with a different interpretation, and as we are speaking of a mere 3.5 years in time I beg to differ, and refer to my website http://surf.to/twobombs for more explanations of my view. (no hard feelings, but i'm just trying avert a loophole here)

Reba: the gap is caused by the rejection of the Jew on the square.
God send them on diaspora for 2000 years, and has collected them the last 40 years or so back to land, setting the profetic clock to tick the last years (of weekdays) away.

As if God didn't know Christ would be rejected. The Crosss was not an after thought.

[twobombs]

Reba: One cannot judge someone for something one hasn't committed yet. Why do you think the diciples asked Jesus time-and-again when He would become King of Israel ?

It is actually in that timeframe where a large portion of your ideas are challenged:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I might have seen too much TV recently, but me thinks Jerusalem right now lacks the following ingredients:

- no more transgression
- end of sins
- everlasting righteousness

Week 70 hasn't been fullfilled yet, yet it will come.

Bronze: could you please use some OT scripture to back the (exorbitant) use of Revelation scripture ?

[Reba]

Jesus Christ was born King.

His Kingdom is without end.

Luke 1:32-33

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Matt 2:1-2
2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV

Isa 9:6-7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV


  Twobombs, I do hope you will directly answer a simple direct question. Do you believe the  rejection of Jesus was a suprise to God and  the Cross etc was an 'after thought'.?

[infotechadviser]

"Pre-tribbers", as I affectionately call them, have gotten confused because it says, "God hath not appointed us unto wrath".

There is the last "week" of Daniel 9, which is clearly begun when the one we know as the Antichrist, makes his "holy convenant" with many. It is clearly stated in these verses that he will place his "abomiination of desolation in the holy place" in the midst of the week.

This breaking of the covenant by the Antirchrist begins the three-and-a-half years of the Tribulation, as Jesus Christ Himself also referred to it in Matthew 24, et.al.

Then "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days", Jesus refers to how the elect will be taken up, gathered together to him in the sky. Every eye shall see Him (it's not going to be secret, or the mystery of the vanishings, like one popular fiction series puts it). This is the time of the seven Trumpets of Revelation.

There is a gap of a number of days from that event up to Armageddon. This is the period during which the Cups of Wrath are poured out upon the Earth, upon those who did not receive the truth and love of Jesus Christ.

The last cup of the wrath of God, of course, is Armageddon.

[twobombs]

Hi reba,

Interestingly you are quoting the words from exactly the same celestian being that spoke not only to Maria but also to Daniel ; Gabriel.

In Daniel Gabriel says:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Those 70 weeks seem contigues, but are not as I previously pointed out. Isiah 53 clearly describes in the life of Christ on this world, and the the suffering and sacrifices He made for our redemption. Paul says :

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

But our redemption isn't enough; He came for His bretheren, and in this day and age there will be a short period in which Israel will turn back to their Messiah:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

The Word, however, cannot be in contradiction; the 70 sevens are contigues when concerned to the people of Daniel (the Jews) to/of whom Gabriel spoke: partial blindness connects the 69th with 70th week (by means of Zech 12:10)

To answer whether the cross was an 'accident' I refer to:
Gen 3:15   And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

FYI a broader picture,
2B

[Bronzesnake]

"Pre-tribbers", as I affectionately call them, have gotten confused because it says, "God hath not appointed us unto wrath".

Then "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days", Jesus refers to how the elect will be taken up, gathered together to him in the sky. Every eye shall see Him (it's not going to be secret, or the mystery of the vanishings, like one popular fiction series puts it). This is the time of the seven Trumpets of Revelation.

 Maybe you should read it again, because after Jesus says "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days", He does not refer to " to how the elect will be taken up, gathered together to him in the sky" He actually describes His second coming. He actually says that He sends His angels to gather us from Heaven. We are already there - the rapture has already taken place.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 This verse (above) describes His second coming. Not the rapture.



Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  

This verse fits in with Rev 19:17-18


 Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  

 These events can be found in Rev 6



Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  

 This is His second coming as described in Rev 19:11-21


 Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

 We follow Jesus from Heaven to earth at His second coming which can be found in Rev 19:14

 Clearly we are already in Heaven. Jesus is sending His angels to gather us from Heaven. We're not being caught up to Heaven, we're being summoned from Heaven.


 I know "mid-tribbers" as I affectionately call them, read 2Thes 2:3 and point out that before the rapture takes place, the "man of sin" must first be revealed. However, if you read the line before that, you'll find something rather curious. Have another look...

 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 "except there come a falling away first" This "falling away is a reference to the rapture. (Read next post) We are raptured before satan appears.

Bronzesnake.

[Bronzesnake]

 The following was posted by 2nd Timothy from the Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages Reply #378 on: April 27, 2004


It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following: "Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure  

clearly known to the Thessalonian church" (Davey, Apostesia," p. 47). Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is "to denote a previous reference." "The departure previously referred to was 'our being gathered to him’ (v.1) and our being 'caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (I Thess. 4:17),’ notes Dr. Lewis (Gordon R. Lewis & Bruce A. Demarest, Integrative Theology 3 vols. in 1 [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996], vol. 3, p. 420).  The  "departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"    

The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture, would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21), and thus such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:  

"Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began" (E. Schuyler English, Re-Thinking the Rapture ( Neptune, NJ: Loiseaux Brothers, 1954), p. 70.  

Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy; however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It  should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:  

"Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2-3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from God's wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as I Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see w. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ's coming as taught in his first letter " (House, "Apostesia," pp. 275-76).  

Departure and The Restrainer

Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pretrib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary, in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:  

"I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses, 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: 'And then shall that Wicked be revealed.' Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of 'departure,' while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as 'falling away' because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin" (Allan A. MacRae, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, [vol. LVI, num 12; June 1950], p. 725).  

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute, added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:  

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs, 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period" (Kenneth S. Wuest, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, [vol. LVI, num 12; June 1950], p. 731).  

Conclusion  

The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic' ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people.”

  Dr. Thomas Ice’s article and its sources are found in Pre-Trib Perspective March, 2004, Vol. 8, No. 11: “Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?
--Terry

[twobombs]

Rapture would definately tip the balance, yet
the salt of the earth losing its taste should prove
to be more then enough to put AC on the scene...

apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah} 2Th 2:3
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Have a nice one,
2B

[Reba]

Thanks Twobombs,

I think that was a direct answer like  yes or no.  

Christ is king the victory was/is won i am not looking for an earthly King as the Israelites did 2000 years ago. AS He said my Kingdom is not of this world.

I spent about 40 years accepting a teaching 'bout like yours, which i have grown to reject. I will attempt to  tell you why ....

Twobombs there is One Salvation One Christ One Lamb One Cross. Man is  not saved by parental blood line. Man is saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. This topic has been battled here for years.

The scripture says 'today is the day of salvation'.I do not read a passage where God has excluded a peoples. In God's written Word we are told 'we are all one in Christ'.

Things are happenig here at my house my train of thought is gone, hopefully i will remember it to get it back....

[twobombs]

Oi Reba,

With Jacobs trouble, there is also a Joseph around that will reveal himself, before the end of the 7 year drought....

Gen 45:4   And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I [am] Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5   Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6   For these two years [hath] the famine [been] in the land: and yet [there are] five years, in the which [there shall] neither [be] earing nor harvest.

And that's my train of thought....

FYI,
Aryan