The Word of God vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Krakenfürst]

First of all I did not mean to suggest that you can’t say whatever you please.  It was merely a rhetorical statement in reference to the fact that I believe you are claiming things that are not scriptural.  The reason I annoy most pre-tribbers is because it has been my experience they don't like to debate with anyone who disagrees with them especially if that person is certain about what they believe.  Please don't take it as being arrogant and condescendingly retreat to uncertainty.  I'm just confident.  So if your confident, go for it.

I'm loving this!  I really appreciate it.  Your pretty good. Dead wrong, but your good!  I mean that sincerly.  You could beat the crap out of that weenie Tim LeHaye.   Now give me a chance to prove your wrong thats all.  You see I have had this pre-trib junk shoved down my throat all my life and I never get to debate them on it.  The ones I know are mindless minions to the cause, but you are different.  I mean that as a complement.  We could possibly approach a mistrial here.  But we'll see.

First of all Revelation 4 says absolutely nothing about the rapture.  Can we agree that's speculation on your part.  John is having the experience here not the whole Church.  I believe Revelation is mostly chronological, but it does back track on the destruction of Babylon and a few other things in later chapters.  I believe the bowls of wrath are also an adjunct part of the seventh trumpet and not completely separate from it.

You said “They have been judged by Jesus and have received their rewards!  This does not happen until after the rapture my friend.”  

So you are saying we are all judged after the rapture, even those who have died before?  Someone is telling you a lie.  The Bible clearly says that judgment takes place when you die.

First let’s blow away your white robe and 24 elders are the church theory.  You need a little lesson on the resurrection.  Dying and going to heaven is not the same as being resurrected.  Did you know if you croaked tonight, before the rapture, that you will go to heaven right away and you will be judged as to whether you are in the book and have received the crown of life, at least your soul does?  Wow, where is your theology coming from?  Yes indeed, there are Christians in heaven right now who have received a crown!  And that’s before Christ returns for the rapture.  Do you believe in purgatory or limbo or something?   We go to be with Christ when we die, but that does not mean we are resurrected or raptured, but it does mean we are judged immediately.

How is that 24 elders can represent the raptured Church in heaven but the multitudes in Rev 7 don’t?  They are humans also, who are also wearing white robes and yet they “come through the great tribulation”.  Even so the Elders are not necessarily raptured or resurrected at this point either just as the souls of those in Rev 6 were not yet resurrected and they were given white robes but told to wait a little while longer for those to be killed just as they had been.   These are the SOULS of saints, not resurrected humans!  As far as crowns go, let me see.  Lie I said, do you not believe that we are immediately judged as to our ultimate disposition when we die?  Those who are left will not receive a crown until Christ returns, but those who die before receive their crowns in heaven when they die. Phil 1:21-23, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;” AND Hebrews 9:27. “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,” AND Rev 14:13, “Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."   "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."” AND Paul alludes to the crown he will receive when he dies, Timothy 2:4-6, “For I am already being poured out like a drink offering and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.”  

Good greif its late,  I have to start earlier tomorrow.  I'll pick it up again later.

Bye

[Krakenfürst]

Snakums Maximus

You are in for it.  Let me pick it up where I left off.  

You said “Your theory of the rapture and the second coming happening at the same time does not fit the scripture.”

I am flabbergasted you can actually make that statement but let’s try it one more time.  

These are the words of Jesus in Rev 16:15, "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

What is being described here in the words of Jesus?  Let’s break it down, He comes and we go!  It’s the rapture!  Pre-tribs love to ignore this second coming like a thief, rapture verse because blows away all of their secret rapture theories they hang there hat on.  Low and behold the surprise rapture occurs at the moment of the battle of Armageddon just like it is further described in chapter 19, where you see those just raptured coming with the Lord to the scene of the battle.  Rev. Chapters 17 through 19 beautifully recaps what has already been said before in Rev, the destruction of Babylon and the very events leading up to the final battle and the return of Jesus Christ the King of Kings.  

Pre-trippers claim that the actual second coming will be so well known that they can count it down to the very day but they claim the rapture is secret (like a theif).  What they don't tell you is that all the thief verses point ONLY to a post trib rapture.  They believe the second coming is such a distinctly prophesied event that it would be impossible for it not to be known up to the very day.  I won’t mention any names.  Yes I will, Tim LeHaye and his wind bag pre-trib council and all the rest.  Then what the heck is this?  Well it seems like at least some folks get surprised and those people are Christians by reference to those who still go but go naked and shamefully exposed.

Is there further evidence of this?  I am glad you asked.  Let’s examine some more thief references.  

Matthew 24:42-44, “"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.  So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Let’s play a little game called Truth or Dispensationalist.  I love to include this verse because in the pre-tripper world they exclude the entire Olivet discourse from the church age column.  That would be all of Matt 24 and 25 which they claim is in reference to the Jews.  So here we go.  We have to ask, who is Christ talking to?  If you said the disciples [nucleus of the Church] you are correct.  If you said the clueless Jews milling around the temple miles away from the Mount of Olives and those who now live in present day Palestine who have not read this scripture you would be a dispensationalist.

Do you remember the verse in Revelation?  Who is Christ talking to?  Here is a hint.  Rev: 22:16, “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches.”

If you said the Church only in chapters 1-4 and for the remainder of the chapters 5-22 the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist.  If you said the Church then you are correct.

Let’s look at another one.  

1 Thess 5:1-4,  “Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”  

If you believe that what this verse is saying is that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night and yet be accompanied by His wrath and destruction and that Paul is talking to the Church then you would be correct.  If you believe that Paul is talking to the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist because obviously the day of the Lord that the Church is expecting is a secret rapture and this could not possibly be it because it is accompanied by wrath and destruction.  And if you believe that Paul says the real second coming is sort of like a thief, but it won’t be a day of destruction or anything like what the Bible actually says it will be and even though real second coming won't be a surprise and the rapture will be a surprise, even thought it says the church should not be surprised because after all we are pre-trib dispensationalist and this verse is contradicting our theory and frankly we wished you hadn’t brought it up…where is the nearest nipple, I need some baby milk?

Let’s look at another one

2 Peter 3:10-12, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.”

If you believe that what this verse is saying is that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief and yet be accompanied by His wrath and destruction and that Peter is talking to the Church then you would be correct.  If you believe that Peter is talking to the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist because obviously the day of the Lord that the Church is expecting is a secret rapture and this could not possibly be it because it is accompanied by wrath and destruction … where is that bottle?  

Oh the contradictions!

Let’s do one more for old time sake.  I love to hear pre-trib exegesis try to explain this one.  They get really twisted.

2 Thess 2:1-8 “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.  Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?  And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”

First of all if you believe Paul is telling the Church what to expect concerning the Day of the Lord then you would be correct.  If you believe that Paul has had a case of beer and does not mean what he is saying then you would be a dispensationalist.  Or, if you believe that what this verse is saying is that the day of the Lord “will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed…..” then you are correct.  If you believe that it says exactly the opposite of this then you are a dispensationalist because obviously the Day of the Lord that the Church is concerned with is a secret rapture that precedes the antichrist because obviously the antichrist does not come until the tribulation and will not be destroyed until the battle of Armageddon and that isn’t right because it contradicts us and besides…MILK!

I have more but I rest my case for now!  Unless you want to cross examine, then I’ll go a few more rounds.

The Kraken
sinker of pre-trib ships

[twobombs]

Noooo, where's the fun of this ? Kraken, soon no pretrib will be left on this forum all died-out,
and just as with the war in Iraq I really want to see their replies and cries for help as they realise it's getting later then planned ?

/another shameless NWO commercial
To all pretribs: Kraken is telling you lies !!  don't believe him !!
/end of another shameless NWO commercial
[....]

You see kraken; pretribs believe all sorts of lies, the above will be eaten like candy,
as sucklings not only want milk, they are suckers  for candy too , just wait and see !

link for pretribs: http://www.4verichip.com/verichipfuture.htm
Your real escape pod is here: http://www.endtimesnetwork.com/oldnews/aliya.html

[ollie]

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

[Bronzesnake]

kraken...

 Let me ask you a couple of questions before I pick apart your extreemly weak "proof" for a rapture/second coming.

 1) God says we are not appointed for wrath. Do you agree?

 2) When do you believe God's wrath, in relation to the seven vails takes place?

Bronzesnake

[Reba]

Let’s play a little game called Truth or Dispensationalist.  I love to include this verse because in the pre-tripper world they exclude the entire Olivet discourse from the church age column.  That would be all of Matt 24 and 25 which they claim is in reference to the Jews.  So here we go.  We have to ask, who is Christ talking to?  If you said the disciples [nucleus of the Church] you are correct.  If you said the clueless Jews milling around the temple miles away from the Mount of Olives and those who now live in present day Palestine who have not read this scripture you would be a dispensationalist.

The mount of Olives is about 700 yards from the temple mount.

[twobombs]

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Funny, i've been focussing in on John 6 lately. The verse you quoted is #35.
It is one of the, if not most, controversial preaching Jesus did when He was on earth.
Many disciples left Him after they heard this teaching, yet today it is so well accepted, alsmost 'automatic' if there is such a thing in the faith....

And I find myself and other fighting the same fight today, in Real Life (tm) but also online. Preaching to deaf ears showing stuff to blind men...  

The more I dig into John 6 I find that one day certain preaching we now hear today being
scoffed upon being lifted from it's benign, awkward position where it's in now.

Jhn 6:61   When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
[...]
Jhn 6:66   From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

666 - The number of the beast. [one should pause to and decide if it's coincidence....]

Mat 24:10   And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

offended : skandalizo {skan-dal-id'-zo} ("scandalize")
1) to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
a) to entice to sin
b) to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
1) to cause to fall away
2) to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
3) to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
c) since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
1) to cause one displeasure at a thing
2) to make indignant
3) to be displeased, indignant

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

It, again, will be Israel were people will find offence or a scandalous thing in....

Just scratching the surface of the scriptures here, and it's sooo obvious, so obvious ppl....

[Aiki Storm]

Just scratching the surface of the scriptures here, and it's sooo obvious, so obvious ppl....
============================================================================================What is so obvious?

[Reba]

Wow  I wonder what was in John mind as he wrote verse 6:66

[twobombs]

Just scratching the surface of the scriptures here, and it's sooo obvious, so obvious ppl....
============================================================================================What is so obvious?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

In the day when Israel is surrounded by nations that want to do damage unto it, God will not suffer its destruction

Zec 14:12   And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Have a nice day,
2B

[infotechadviser]

kraken...

 Let me ask you a couple of questions before I pick apart your extreemly weak "proof" for a rapture/second coming.

 1) God says we are not appointed for wrath. Do you agree?

 2) When do you believe God's wrath, in relation to the seven vails takes place?

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake

Another question is also, if Jesus said "ye shall have tribulation", will you not? And if "that's not what he meant", then why interpret "wrath" that way. But turns out you get what you asked for below anyway.

1. We are not appointed for wrath. This is God's Word. God's Word does not contradict itself, it just contradicts sin and untruths.

2. "When the trump shall sound, we which are alive and reamin shall be caught up in the air with him.."  (Paul) At Revelation 10, the angel prepares to sound the seventh trump.

In chapter 11, as a prelude to the 7th trumpet, it talks about the two witnesses who prophecy in Jerusalem and give the Antichrist some real problems, and goes right into their resurrection. It immediately goes to the seventh trumpet, and the kingdoms of the Earth have become our Lord's, those 24 elders worship, and look at verse 18a, "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.".

Now look at verse 18 again. At the same time, "thy wrath is come", and the "servants the prophets" are getting their "reward". A parenthetical aside about the woman in Rev. 12, the Beast and the False Prophet and the Mark in Rev. 13, then 14 and 15 lead up to the Vials.

So after the 6 trumpets are done, there is a recap of some of the events of the tribulation.

The 2 witnesses are caught up, and like Jesus said (Matt. 24) "every eye shall see him", and they are likely raised up with the rest of us.

With us out of the way, the vials of the wrath of God are pured out for the few days left before the return at the end of the seven years, while we enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb "upstairs", and return with him to execute the seventh vial at Armageddon.

Those chapters, with that well in mind, will never be the same to you.

[Bronzesnake]

Revelation is in chronological order.
 The problem a lot of us have is that there seems to be several verses that are not in sequence.

 This problem is easily cleared up when we realize that the events of Revelation are described from two different perspectives, and three viewpoints.

 This is purposefully done to show us what is happening in Heaven, and on earth at the same time as events unfold.

For example...

 The 6th chapter relates that the saints are persecuted and killed, but it is only in the 13th chapter that we find out how they are killed and by whom.

also, compare the following two events which are from different chapters in Revelation, but depict the same details....

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.  

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great

 Here's a hypothetical example...

 You watch a hockey game on TV, and at the exact same time, your friend is watching it at the arena.
 You could both write down a pretty good description of the hi-lights of the game. However, there would be some slight difference because you both witnessed the same game from different perspectives.
 A person may read both accounts, and believe they were reading about two different games. However, if they read both descriptions carefully, they would come to a reasonable conclusion that these accounts were base on the same game.


Rev 4 - 11 is  from the viewpoint of Heaven. In these verses, the viewpoint is as one in Heaven looking down upon the earth and seeing things which happen as a result of the activities in Heaven.

 Rev 12 - 16 is from the viewpoint of earth. Now the viewpoint is as one on earth spontaneously witnessing the same events as were being seen from Heaven.

 
Rev 17 - 18 is satan's kingdom. In these verses the mystery of evil is revealed as well as it's final destination.

 When we realize this simple structure, we no longer have to, for example,  place the rapture in a "later" timeline because we believe it seems to occur in a later chapter in Revelation. What we are actually seeing is specific events being related from different viewpoints.

 Of course, we still must recognize that there are events which happen in a chronological order. However, some of these events are described more than once, from different perspectives. We can recognize them easily, as the above examples demonstrate.

Bronzesnake.

[Bronzesnake]

Kraken...

First let’s blow away your white robe and 24 elders are the church theory.  You need a little lesson on the resurrection.  Dying and going to heaven is not the same as being resurrected.  Did you know if you croaked tonight, before the rapture, that you will go to heaven right away and you will be judged as to whether you are in the book and have received the crown of life, at least your soul does?  Wow, where is your theology coming from?  Yes indeed, there are Christians in heaven right now who have received a crown!  And that’s before Christ returns for the rapture.  Do you believe in purgatory or limbo or something?  We go to be with Christ when we die, but that does not mean we are resurrected or raptured, but it does mean we are judged immediately.

 First of all. If I need a lesson lesson on the resurrection, I won't come to you my friend!  

2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:  


 2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)  


 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  

 Of course I know that if I die tonight I'll be in spirit, with the Lord. However, I strongly dissagree with you that I'll be judged by the Lord at that time. There is an appointed time for the Judgement of both save and unsaved. Do you think that when a non believer dies he goes to Hell right away? If you do, you're dead wrong...again.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

 satan and the beast were tossed into the lake of fire for the duration of the 1,000 year reign Rev 19:20  Rev 20 :2-3. However, the unsaved people who were killed by Jesus at His second coming were not sent to hell at that time. They were dead, but not in hell...where do you think they went? Let's see...they're not alive. They're not in Heaven. They're not in Hell....hmmm...
Do you believe in purgatory or limbo or something?

 The unsaved dead are not judged and do not go to Hell until after His second coming.
 As you will notice, they are all judged together, after the 1,000 year reign not one at a time as they die.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  


 Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.  


 Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.  


 Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  


 Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  


 Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  


 Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  


 Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  


 Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

 Nowhere in the scriptures does God tells us that we are judged one at a time at the moment of our death.

 The only place in scriptures where we can see a judgement after His second coming, we can clearly see that the unbelievers are judged all together at the same time.

Bronzesnake.

[Krakenfürst]

Snake,

First of all you have not addressed a single point I have made, other than to argue that the book of Revelation is Chronological except when it isn’t necessary to see it that way.  Note: Apparently, that is only when it destroys the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture because only then it isn’t because you have to pretend it is a different perspective such as from heaven as opposed to earth.  That is a load of pre-trib crap just like your Rev 4 rapture and 24 elders = the church in heaven claim.  With that kind of interpretive skill you could pretty much make the Bible say whatever you want.  You have no clue and no evidence to support your claim.  Unless I lost my Bible decoder manual it doesn’t say anywhere in the instructions that the objective to Biblical interpretation is to make it fit the pre-trib view no matter what.

Snake said “God says we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Do you agree?”

Of course I agree.  However, tribulation for the saints does not equal wrath for the last time.  Do you not agree that there will be believers on earth that will suffer tribulation at the same time the trumpet judgments take place? Who are those believers if they are not likewise beneficiaries of the promises of God?  This is at the same time when wrath is being poured out upon the earth for the sake of unbelievers.  Do you not believe that the early Church suffered tribulation?   Their bodies were used as torches and they lined the roads leading into to Rome.  They were torn to pieces in the coliseum.  They were thrown in prison, persecuted and tortured, yet in their afflictions they rejoiced because they believed it was an honor to suffer for the name of Christ.  But then who is going to be suffering wrath?   Those who are doing these things to the believers will suffer God’s wrath and God’s wrath is not indiscriminate nor is it directed upon the saints.  

If you lose your job and your property is stolen, your 401(k) becomes worthless and somebody persecutes you and calls you names for carrying your Bible, you might call that wrath.  That isn’t wrath, that’s just the minor tribulation of what being a Christian will be like in the days to come.  However, eventually you may be put to death for the name of Christ.  You may be thrown in prison, killed, beheaded or tortured much like the early Christians and so many since then.  What are you afraid of?  What is the worst thing that could happen to your body for the sake of Christ?  That body you have is a worthless stinking piece of flesh anyway.  It is going to die even if you live.  Do you think if your flesh suffers in any way for the sake of Christ that is wrath? Give me a break.  Trust me, even if you attempt to save your stinking flesh you will lose it anyway and not one part of it will inherit the kingdom of God in any case.  I am saying this because it equally applies to each of us.  Our bodies are sinful flesh that will either die and be resurrected anew or they will be changed in a flash, in the blink of an eye at the moment Christ returns.

We are simply arguing over the timing and yes there is much that we can dispute about on the matter of how to interpret the Revelation of Jesus Christ.  But there is a reason why pre-tribs do not include many of the verses of scripture in their exegesis that I have related to you.  They simply leave them out because it doesn’t fit their point of view.  You want to talk about different perspectives and all of that to explain it away.  You are destroying the whole concept that Revelation is describing chronological events.  You can’t even argue that the rapture that takes place in Rev. 16:15 is a chronological event instead you say it is the pre-trib rapture from a different perspective or whatever. That’s hogwash.  It talks about the battle of Armageddon taking place at the same time.

I challenge you to try for just once to forsake all of your man made interpretations and let the Word of God speak to you.  Forget everything I have said and everything any man has told you.  You love to quote what other people think, what other people say and what other people write about, but forget all of that.  Read the Bible and let God speak to you. I was a more ardent defender of what you believe than you are at one time.  I read every book I could get my hands on, I listened to every tape and message and so on, and then one day God spoke to me.  I may not be going about this the correct way but it is my calling to destroy this pernicious doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.  IT IS NOT OUR BLEESED HOPE to be rescued from impending tribulation based on the alleged Philadelphia exception.  On the contrary, it will be a blessing to be here to the bitter end if that is God’s will.  It will be a blessing to see Israel saved and come to Christ.  I can guarantee you that if you remove the dispensational blinders you will see things in a different light that will bring a new understanding to God’s Word, both Old and New Testament.  It is my opinion that dispensational pre-tribulationism is the worst of all lies that is corrupting the evangelical Church.  It is a doctrine of utter complacency and defeatism for the Church.  

I would love to hear your specific interpretation of Rev 16:14-17 in the full context of the verses that accompany it concerning the final battle and especially the “it is done” quote from 16:17.  You also have failed to address the fact that the only second coming passages mentioned in scriptures that are “a surprise second coming” are those that are clearly post-tribulational.  Indeed all of the second coming verses are either post trib as to their explicit timing or neutral in the since that only out of context one can perhaps imply some other timing.    

You have completely ignored the points I made concerning the resurrection of the saints, and the fact the Jesus said that he will resurrect those who believe on the last day.  You can’t possibly explain the timing of Old Testament saints in the rapture nor specifically the prophet Daniel who is told that he will not arise until after the end of days.  You have not disputed one thing I have said from scripture.  I am aware of so much more propaganda that you could come up with, being ever so familiar with your point of view.  Let’s try the seven year day, while at the same time claiming to be the ONLY VIEW that takes the scriptures literally (except where it doesn’t agree with the pre-trib view).   I have read that crap so many it makes me laugh.
 
Ebia, thank you for your contribution.  Nonetheless even at seven hundred yards away Jesus was still not talking to those standing around the temple.  Point made!

[twobombs]

Bronze: please, when you use the book of Revelation please also point out it's sister scripture in the OT.

I'm getting sick and tired of people quoting from Revelation out of thin air;
it's theologically not correct, and scripturewise it just looks plain dumb.

I know you're intelligent; please use the OT as a mirror to prove your point.