The Word of God vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Krakenfürst]

This is a mock trial....

Opening statements:

The plaintiffs: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and to our Sovereign Lord, Judge over all things:  There are many questions that the pre-trib rapture believers simply cannot reconcile without their dispensational lenses on.  In fact most do not even realize they are unqualified to interpret scriptures according to their own beliefs unless they know how the dispensational filter works to "clarify" Biblical interpretation.  The reality is that most, having no Biblical basis for their beliefs in the pre-trib rapture, rely more on what someone else has told them or what they have read in a book.  Their teachers twist and turn the Word of God to their advantage placing every end time’s prophecy in the Church age or not column depending upon whether it fits their point of view.  Their elaborate timelines attempt to explain all of the contradictions that arise as a result, but in the end it will be proven that you O God are truthful and every man is a liar.  Despite their desires to be left alone in their wonderings we feel it is necessary at once to bring action against the ever so peace-loving pre-tribs in our midst to prevent any further infringement against the Truth.

My complaint is simple and it is based on a simple question your Honor.  Where does the Bible explicitly say there is a pre-trib rapture?  Quickly, run and get your books upon books, your numerous timelines, graphs and your charts, you’re out of context quotes and all those quirky explanations of what a fragment of scripture means to say instead of what it does say.  However, let me warn you.  Do not quote what a man has said, to me or this court, because I have already heard them many times and God understands the full measure of their words.  However, if you desire to put what a man says into evidence, then feel free to do so, but be warned every careless or added word, or subtracted word is subject to brutal cross examination and carries with it some measure of eternal penalty according to the scriptures if it is found to be in contempt or perjurous.

My opening statement is simply this.  I can certainly prove to you that the Bible is NOT a lie, or ambiguous or misleading or even difficult to understand on this matter and it is in fact a seamless and utterly truthful tapestry that neatly fits all of the prophecies together and it points to a singular advent at the end of the age.  There is no need for a dispensational filter or other scheme whereby one may interpret scripture, but the truth is plain, as it is potentially terrifying to pre-tribs, who have visions of being raptured with their retirement plans still in tact.  However, since the defendant, as alleged, has infringed upon the Truth and has submitted the same as a substitute for the truth, as the plaintiff contends, then we shall rest the entirely of our case upon the aforementioned question which I shall hereby elaborate upon in repetition:

Where is the evidence for your claim that in lieu of direct scriptural authority, there is a coming of Christ and a rapture of the saints before the prophesied tribulation that has any basis for which to stand before the judgment of Jesus Christ our Sovereign Lord and Savior who holds the Sword of the Spirit of Truth and our God and who is primarily and wholeheartedly the subject and the chief witness to the entire matter of this very same question?


The plaintiff hereby ends his opening statement and contemplates a motion for summary judgment against the defendant in this case!

The defendants may now make their opening remarks.  

Please NO defendant witnesses at this time.  That will come later.  The plaintiff must rest their case first.  The plaintiff is going to call a single witness after opening statements by the defendant(s).  

For discovery purposes here is the published list of Plaintiff Witnesses:

The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as The Word of the Living God

[Bronzesnake]

 The reality of mock trials is they are full of mock reasoning, mock evidence, mock truth and end up drawing mock conclusions.

 Hey! I find myself suddenly in the mood for a sandwich...mock chicken sounds good!  

[Aiki Storm]

First of all, the pre-tribulation rapture was inspired to many people(and well before the 1800's).  And just why are you so critical of these people anyway?  If these people are constantly walking with Jesus, it is not going to affect their rewards (or yours) if the rapture is not pre-trib.  No, I dont know of any verse that comes right out and says the rapture will occur pre-trib.  And I don't have any timelines so I am not running to get them.  I know of verses that lead to that thought however.

I do know that we are to be looking for His return.  We are to be living Godly lives and not wandering away from the faith.  We are to pray for each other and build each other up.  The rapture will happen.  This is in God's Word.  Whether it occurs before the tribulation or during, God only knows.  I believe there are subjects not covered in His Word that are revealed to us through His Holy Spirit through constant prayer and study.  

It feels as though you have more of a grudge against christians that believe this rather than the belief itself.  

I did find your post humerous...however.

I don't think you are going to change anyone's mind who has been spoken to by the Holy Spirit though.  

[Evangelist]

Opening statement of alleged defendants:

Your Honor....we are fully cognizant of the fact that you, and you alone, are a righteous judge, therefore we plead that the jury be dismissed, as they are quite subject to erroneous interpretations and understanding, just as is the affiant for the plaintiff in this case.

Considering that the plaintiff's attorney has done nothing more than make logically flawed assertions in his opening remarks, and has at this point failed to show any basis at all for the charges levied, we ask for an immediate dismissal of the complaint on grounds of non sequitur veritam, and request an immediate acceptance by this court of a counter-claim of libel based upon argumentum ad hominem, argumentum ad ridiculum, obfuscatory snidism and egregious emission of volatile gasses.

Thank you your Honor.


JUDGMENT FROM THE BENCH.

Plaintiff's case is dismissed with prejudice, counter-claim accepted, and verdict of true rendered in the counter-claim based upon exculpatory comments made during opening arguments.

It is the judgment of this court that original plaintiff be sentenced to serve 7 years (if he can make it) at hard labor at Har Meggido.

Good luck, boy.

[Krakenfürst]

Thank you for presenting your opening statements.  

Nice try Evangelist.  Very witty comments, but it’s my thread and you don’t have to play if you don’t want to.

Aiki, I do not care nor wish to quarrel about the historicity of the pretrib theory, but your point about the inspiration of the pretrib rapture is noted.  But please understand you can also find far more ancient frauds that have an orthodox following, some of which trace their roots to a tree.  As for numbers of adherents, again such statistics are not relevant.  Lies often have a greater following than truth.  As for constant prayer and study, I highly recommend it!  It is my opinion that the biggest opponent of the pretrib position is one who is actually informed about what the Bible does say concerning the rapture and resurrection and it is NOT silent on the matter and in fact it tells you precisely and affirmatively it’s position relative to the tribulation as you will soon see.

I will now call my first and only witness:

I call to the witness stand the Bible.  There is no need to call for an oath as one does not need to swear by one’s self.  I shall begin with the questions.

Plaintiff – Please tell the court where you have said either explicitly or implicitly that there is a rapture of the Church and a resurrection of the saints before the tribulation?
Bible - …silence….

Please note that where the witness is silent on the matter it is not to say that He is either affirming or denying the question.  However, arguments from silence are difficult to make or prove and offer very little evidentiary value especially when confronted with authoritative (the Bible) evidence to the contrary.

Plaintiff – Please for the court state the following verse to which we all agree mentions the rapture, “The dead in Christ shall rise first, etc”.  I simply want to stipulate before the jury that the rapture event is accompanied by another crucial event that is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ.  

Bible – 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, “We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

Plaintiff – If you are not silent about it can you tell the court when the rapture will take place and when will there be a resurrection of the saints at that time?

Bible – John 6:39-40, “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   
Plaintiff – Are there any other verses that mention the rapture besides the one already mentioned?

Bible – Revelation 16:14-16, “They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.”
Matthew 24:30-31, “"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”  

Plaintiff - Please note, for the record, Armageddon is on the last day for those who are perhaps unaware of the chronology of the book of Revelation.  If it also pleases the court, this can be stipulated without submitting the entirety of the book at this point.  Are there any other verses that mention when the Resurrection will take place?

Bible - Daniel 12:1-2, “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Daniel 12:11-13, “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
Revelation 20:4-6. “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

Plaintiff – For the record I would like to stipulate that the timing of the events mentioned from the book of Daniel are clearly post tribulation with the reference to the events surrounding the antichrist and the tribulation.  Also the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation at the time of the second coming and millennial reign of Christ is clearly post tribulational.
   
Plaintiff – The defendant claims to believe you more literally than anyone else so is it true that when you say the words “Last Day” and the words “First resurrection” and the words “Last Trumpet” do you intend to say that you mean exactly that in a literal since or do you really intend to say something quite entirely different?

Bible- …silence….

Plaintiff -  The defendant claims that the 24th chapter of Matthew is not for the Church because it is so clearly post tribulational.  But for the record is there anywhere where you say that these words in your most famous Olivet discourse are not for the Church?
Bible- …silence….

Plaintiff- I see… Well let’s move on.  I could go on as there is so much more, but it would be better to submit additional evidence from my witness upon re-direct or cross examination.  Therefore, the witness may step down and the Plaintiff Rest.  

Plaintiff Motion:
Your Honor as the defendant has at his disposal enumerable books, commentaries, committees and councils that tickle each others ears and countless references to distinguished experts, noble professors and reputable clerics, experts and doctors of theology, chart makers and un-tanglers of contradiction with magnificent report and skill, I hereby reserve the right to cross examine as best I can only those who wish to devote their testimony to addressing what my witness has reported this day and in any other written testimony, prophecy or Revelation of God.  After they have exhausted their handful or so of quotes from my witness and have attempted to twist His words asunder and throw out those that they cannot abide in as belonging only upon the brow of Israel, the unfortunate people of God and those allegedly left behind,  I will ask for a brief prayer.  This prayer will be on behalf of those saints who are destined to be killed during the tribulation even while some believe, despite every admonition to the contrary, they will be having a wedding dinner party in heaven over the souls of those slain for the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ.  These are the saints who do not love their lives so much as to shrink from death but who shall overcome by the Word of their testimony and who will remain faithful to Jesus.

Now it is time to defend what you claim to believe.  You may call your first witness!

[Krakenfürst]

Why does the evangelical Church largely ignore Israel.  The answer is dispensational Pre-tribulationism!  One of my deepest concerns is for the people of God.  If you would read your Bible without dispensational lenses on you would realize there will come a day when we will all be ISRAEL (including Israel) and Israel will return to God!

C'mon all you pretribs.  Surely there is someone among you who can be your champion to refute the Bible.  Perhaps Lehay himself can come wrestle the Kraken.  There must be one among you educated enough in the complexities of dispensational theology to explain away what is and will be in favor of what isn't.  Trust me, I have read enough books and heard enough lectures from your teachers and authors to know there is a way to ignore a third of Biblical prophecies if necesarry and also twist the remainder.  

Here is a little diddy I just thought up for you:

Pick and choose, slice and dice, turn it upside down.  
We like two of everything, part of what is sound.  
Second comings, raptures all, resurrections too.
Tribulation, not for us, only for the Jew.  
Don't blame us for leaving soon, we care not much for you.  
There is little we imagine we can ever do.
Listen cloesly when we say, surely comes a day.
When Jesus Christ, has not a soul that's saved and here to stay.    

Who will tell them, thats a q, we don't really care
We are having steak tonight living way up there.
They will see that we are gone and then they will despair
Some may find a Bible that we left behind down there.

What a Church what a mission left in rubble great commission, double trouble for the rubble, we are GONE way past the Hubble!!!

...We Hope, but who gives a crap about all those Jews anyway!  

Christian,

The last great command that we have is to evangelize Israel.  The entire remnant will be saved when the full measure of Gentiles has been brought in.  We must return to the point of our origins and reach the people of God.  When she awakens to the gospel and her hard heart is melted it will be a marvelous sight that will be the most awesome event every witnessed on earth.  There will again be One People of God. Trust me when I tell you this, it will also unleash the most awesome persecution the Church has ever witnessed.  Who will be willing to go when the time is right?


I'll go and if necessary I'll die.

[twobombs]

Pre tribs (will) have the nasty habit of wearing the mark of the beast.

That should be enough judgement and condemnation for their bad theology ?

[Aiki Storm]

krakenfurst
We are not to suffer God's wrath.  For sure!  He said so.  The question is what is the beginning of His wrath.  Is it the beginning of the tribulation, middle or latter portion.  The idea of us being taken out of destruction is not a new one.  I find many verses leading to pre-trib and middle.  But arguing about this is useless. It does not matter when we go.  We will one day be taken up to meet Him in the clouds.  Live with Christ and don't run astray and He will protect you from the second death.  
------------------------------------------------------------ Krakenfurst wrote
By the way

 Here is a little diddy I just thought up for you:

Pick and choose, slice and dice, turn it upside down.  
We like two of everything, part of what is sound.  
Second comings, raptures all, resurrections too.
Tribulation, not for us, only for the Jew.  
Don't blame us for leaving soon, we care not much for you.  
There is little we imagine we can ever do.
Listen cloesly when we say, surely comes a day.
When Jesus Christ, has not a soul that's saved and here to stay.    

Who will tell them, thats a q, we don't really care
We are having steak tonight living way up there.
They will see that we are gone and then they will despair
Some may find a Bible that we left behind down there.

What a Church what a mission left in rubble great commission, double trouble for the rubble, we are GONE way past the Hubble!!!

...We Hope, but who gives a crap about all those Jews anyway!   ------------------------------------------------------------
Beautiful poem.  Subtle, yet arrogant, it seems.

Arrogant words never motivates people to see it your way.

[Reba]

Why does the evangelical Church largely ignore Israel.  The answer is dispensational Pre-tribulationism!  One of my deepest concerns is for the people of God.  If you would read your Bible without dispensational lenses on you would realize there will come a day when we will all be ISRAEL (including Israel) and Israel will return to God!

C'mon all you pretribs.  Surely there is someone among you who can be your champion to refute the Bible.  Perhaps Lehay himself can come wrestle the Kraken.  There must be one among you educated enough in the complexities of dispensational theology to explain away what is and will be in favor of what isn't.  Trust me, I have read enough books and heard enough lectures from your teachers and authors to know there is a way to ignore a third of Biblical prophecies if necesarry and also twist the remainder.  

Here is a little diddy I just thought up for you:

Pick and choose, slice and dice, turn it upside down.  
We like two of everything, part of what is sound.  
Second comings, raptures all, resurrections too.
Tribulation, not for us, only for the Jew.  
Don't blame us for leaving soon, we care not much for you.  
There is little we imagine we can ever do.
Listen cloesly when we say, surely comes a day.
When Jesus Christ, has not a soul that's saved and here to stay.    

Who will tell them, thats a q, we don't really care
We are having steak tonight living way up there.
They will see that we are gone and then they will despair
Some may find a Bible that we left behind down there.

What a Church what a mission left in rubble great commission, double trouble for the rubble, we are GONE way past the Hubble!!!

...We Hope, but who gives a crap about all those Jews anyway!  

Christian,

The last great command that we have is to evangelize Israel.  The entire remnant will be saved when the full measure of Gentiles has been brought in.  We must return to the point of our origins and reach the people of God.  When she awakens to the gospel and her hard heart is melted it will be a marvelous sight that will be the most awesome event every witnessed on earth.  There will again be One People of God. Trust me when I tell you this, it will also unleash the most awesome persecution the Church has ever witnessed.  Who will be willing to go when the time is right?


I'll go and if necessary I'll die.

There will again be One People of God. Trust me when I tell you this, it will also unleash the most awesome persecution the Church has ever witnessed.  Who will be willing to go when the time is right?


Is there now more than 'One People' of God?

[Reba]

A couple questions for the jury to ponder....


  Where does the Bible explicitly say there is a  rapture?  

 Jesus gives testimony ; reference Matt 24. I ask the jury did Jesus , God Himself, commit  perjury  with these words?

“….Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:….
….Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

What comes after the ‘last day’ ?

[Aiki Storm]

Good Point! Thank you!
------------------------------------------------------------
Hour Unknown

When we search the scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event.  Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while relvelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1260 days, starting when the antichrist stands in the temple of God and delcares himself to be god (2 thes 2:4).  This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27).  Note that some people only see a three and a half year tribulation.  In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half.  Nonetheless, peaceful of not, there still remains a 7 year period called the tribulation.  When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1260 days (Mat 24:16).  There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation.  The only way for these two  viewpoints to be true is to seperate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly 7 years later.  

144,000 will be sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel Rev (7:3).
What about the church?  Are they already in heaven?  No need to seal them then.    

[Eddielee]

As to the day and hour being unknow, Jesus also tells us that we should know the season:
Mark 13:
26 "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.

and then alittle farther down he says this:

What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'

Now, if there are no signs before the rapture, what can we watch for? Like in this passage, Jesus tells us about the gathering, the rapture, and then tells us that we will know when it is near when we see these things happening.

To reconcile these teachings, that we don't know the day or the hour, but we are suppose to watch for the season, is a matter of perspective. Like, if someone were to have a schedule, and tell us only that they would be here in June, but didn't tell us the exact day. They told us only that the signs of the weather would tell us when they would be coming.

[Reba]

Good Point! Thank you!
------------------------------------------------------------
Hour Unknown

When we search the scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event.  Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while relvelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1260 days, starting when the antichrist stands in the temple of God and delcares himself to be god (2 thes 2:4).  This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27).  Note that some people only see a three and a half year tribulation.  In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half.  Nonetheless, peaceful of not, there still remains a 7 year period called the tribulation.  When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1260 days (Mat 24:16).  There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation.  The only way for these two  viewpoints to be true is to seperate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly 7 years later.  

144,000 will be sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel Rev (7:3).
What about the church?  Are they already in heaven?  No need to seal them then.    

No where in the Revelation will you find  antichrist.  John did not pin  the word in Revelation and the Word is God inspired. Why does man say different?  

[Bronzesnake]

Hi Reeb...

 Why do you have such a problem with the word antichrist in relation to Revelation? Just because the word is not found in Revelation doesn't mean "the antichrist" is not a proper noun for satan.

 Look at the verses where the word can be found, and see if the descriptions given could be used to describe satan. Consider the fact that satan is the father of all sin, evil, darkness, etc. Without satan, there is no sin.

  1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 Without satan there could be no antichrist. When people refer to "the antichrist" they are speaking specifically about satan.

 Surely you believe satan can be found in Revelation, is it simply the word that bothers you? I honestly don't understand your position on this one Reba.


 

Where does the Bible explicitly say there is a  rapture?

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

 Reba...

 When Jesus returns to earth to destroy satan and his armies, He is depicted in Rev 19:14, as returning with His saints from Heaven. He then wipes out a whole bunch of men...

 Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.  


Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  



 So, there are some humans returning with Jesus from Heaven, and there are some humans on earth. Why were there some in Heaven?


if there's no rapture, we should all be on earth...and yet the bible clearly shows that not to be the case. The fact that there are some coming from Heaven with Jesus, fits in nicely with a rapture of His church. The fact that many are on earth also seemingly corroborates a rapture theme, where the unbelievers didn't return from Heaven, they apparently remained on earth...missed the flight out.

Bronzesnake.

 


 

[Reba]

Wow  ya hit me twice!


Opps company is here i have to run catch ya later