The Word of God vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Bronzesnake]

Wow  ya hit me twice!


Opps company is here i have to run catch ya later

Don't quite know how that happened.
 Don't quite know how that happened.  

The Doppelganger has been...eliminated!

Bronzesnake.

[Krakenfürst]

Ok, Lets see if I can break this down.  By the way very very weak defense pretribals.  Surely you can do better.  Where is your golliath?  Please take if from me, a recovered pre-trib junkie.  Life is great once your cured.  

Two Bombs,

Although I adamantly disagree with pretribs I must also disagree with your assessment of their fate.  I do not believe that pre-tribs will wear the mark of the beast.  This issue is an inhouse debate upon whose position ones salvation does not depend.  I was saved long before I gave up that idea.  I go to a Church with nearly 10,000 of them and I belong to a denomination of nearly 16 million (wag) of them.  They are by far the best Christians I know and I admire them and love them dearly.  But something happens to a persecuted Church that is likely to kindle a flame not ever seen in this land or this church.  They will come around sooner if not later.  However, I do believe some among them will suffer serious retribution from God for adding to what is not written and taking away what is written.

Aiki,

You are incorrect.  Wrath for the unbeliever does not equal tribulation for the saints.  The saints will suffer tribulation, but not the wrath of God.  The tribulation we will suffer will have a purifying effect even though some (many) will actually lose their lives for the cause of Christ.   Also, arguing about this issue is not useless to me; I believe it is important for the Church to know the truth, even so you don’t have to debate it if you don’t want to.  But let me tell you about arrogance.  My Sunday school teacher was teaching a lesson on the pre-trib rapture the other week.  He knows my point of view and so he came up to me before class and insisted I remain silent during the lesson.  I had him in my crosshairs several times while he spewed his propaganda but I refrained.  My pastor teaches it routinely as gospel truth and mocks anyone from the pulpit who believes otherwise, boldly stating that he will say “I told you so” all the way to heaven.   Yet when I write him a letter he kindly declines to respond to any Biblical point made and offers a simple reply that “many have different opinions”.  Opinion?  That is not what you called it last Sunday dude.  Arrogance and condescension abound in the pre-trib camp but they do not want to debate the issue one on one with a Bible in hand.  They are like Mormons and their talking points.  They can’t debate with the scripture on this! I have had this stuff shoved down my throat all my life yet I have yet to find anyone in a congregation of 10,000 to even give me a hearing on what the Bible says when challenged.  But if one of their leaders would turn from that belief the whole lot of them would gasp in despair and probably change their own beliefs they are so codependent on others for what they believe.  I have talked to dozens and dozens of them and not a single one has yet been able to defend his belief from the Word of God.  

Do you know why pre-trib prophecy books sale so well?  Because it aint in the Bible!!! Otherwise folks would read that instead.  But, everyone is looking for some authoritative answer to reassure them.  I used to buy their books and read them by the score to console myself. It's like a drug that temporarily alters reality.

There is something very interesting you should look in to.  Every time the rapture or Day of the Lord is mentioned in the Bible with respect to His coming at a time which is unknown or as a thief it is in reference to it happening in a post tribulational context.  I give you the verses in Matthew 24 & 25, Luke 12, Revelation 16:15, 1 Thess 5, 2 Peter 3 as examples.  However, our command is clearly to know the time and the season, but not necessarily the day and the hour.  Hence Revelation 3:3 says, “Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” Also 1 Thess. .5:4 says “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”  Matt 24:43-44, “But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”   So clearly the emphasis is that the unbeliever will be caught completely unaware while the believer should be watching and ready when he comes even at an hour when we do not expect him.  To me that means we are not going to be totally surprised nor are we going to be certain exactly when the prophetic clock begins the countdown on the number of days.  

The 144k which consists of 12K each from the 12 tribes of Israel is a very difficult issue because Revelations is so full of figurative language.  But I believe it means far more than just 144k Jewish evangelist.  Rather I believe this is representative of ALL nations who are part of the People of God that come together during this time.  There is serious Biblical evidence for this, for example, in Duet 32:7-9 the Lord says, “Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.  When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.”  Jacob is also called Israel as you may know.  This is an ancient messianic text that implies that God would at some point gather the nations to himself according to the twelve tribes of Israel and they would ALL be his inheritance.  Amazing! Consider also the description of the Holy City and its inhabitance in Revelation.  Notice how both Israel and the Church appear in the architecture and how often 144 appears in the dimensions of the City described as the Bride of Christ.  You will not find this teaching anywhere else as far as I know, but this is a personal Revelation so I am not going to tell you this is matter of fact, only evidence that this somehow points to the truth.  Wow, I am getting fired up.  There is so much more I could write a book.  Rats, I have no credentials from pretrib institutions so it would never get published in evangelical Christendom.

To Reba,

The word rapture is simply a term used to describe what the Bible says is going to happen when Christ returns.  You know, “we will be caught together with them in the clouds…” that sort of thing.  It signifies what is clearly going to happen to those who are still here on earth when Christ returns regardless of when you believe it takes place.  You can call it foodlemorph if you want but those who are alive when he returns shall be transformed and will be joined with Christ at his coming.  The question is whether you believe in a pre-trib foodlemorph or post trib foodlemorph.  After the foodlemorph which the Bible says will take place on the last day, comes the millennial reign and then eternity.

As for the people of God issue please don’t get me started.   This is really a very deep issue, but I would ask you to look in your Bible and ponder the meaning of the two olive trees or two olive Branches as described in Zech., Romans and Revelation.  There is a separation of the two at present, meaning Israel and the Church but there is clearly a point in time when the two shall be joined together.


C'mon pre-tribbers, lets get those charts out.  Read a few more books if you must.  The challenge you are dealing with is that I have read your books and the entirety of the Bible more than once with specific emphasis on finding evidence to support exactly what you believe.  You see I was once a pre-tribber determined to prove it was true.  Yet I was convicted to believe otherwise not by some book, preacher or pamplet but by what I did discover in the Bible and that is what I decided to believe.  As an ex pre-tribber I can say with conviction you have probably not read the Bible in search of this question as I have, otherwise you would not be a pre-tribber.  You will not find something that I haven't read and pondered it in light of this question, but good luck anyway.  The Kraken prince (child of the king Jesus) awaits to sink your ship.

[twobombs]

Krakenfuerst:

The disappointment and dispair among most pre-tribulation believers will be so devastatingly great that certain lies and deceptions will readily be accepted and taken as 'gospel' as to soften the blow.

This week I have seen a person getting injected with the beastchip
( http://omroep.vara.nl/mediaarchief.jsp?maintopic=vara_media_archief&offset=25 )
And around the same day a well known local christian said it's all right when someone takes that chip.

To do the talk-talk is something completely different then doing the walk-walk. Pre-tribbers are also well known for their lukewarm attitude and often share the same problems that the lukewarm church in Laodicea had. This lukewarm church got vomited out of the body. Afterwards He will reject those saying : "I know thee not"

One can obtain but one can also loose ones salvation

[Bronzesnake]

God says that some will face tribulation and wrath, some will not...

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  


 Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  


Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;  


Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  

[Reba]

Hi Reeb...

 Why do you have such a problem with the word antichrist in relation to Revelation? Just because the word is not found in Revelation doesn't mean "the antichrist" is not a proper noun for satan.

 The man who penned the word antichrist (John) is the same who penned The Revelation he did not use the term i respect his authorty, beleaving he had his reasons. We know the scripture is God inspired.

Which of the verses below speak of one central figure?

 Look at the verses where the word can be found, and see if the descriptions given could be used to describe satan. Consider the fact that satan is the father of all sin, evil, darkness, etc. Without satan, there is no sin.

  1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 many are spoke of here

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 Don't you think satan knows Jesus is the Son of God and knows  He was here and went to the Cross?

 Without satan there could be no antichrist. When people refer to "the antichrist" they are speaking specifically about satan.

 Surely you believe satan can be found in Revelation, is it simply the word that bothers you? I honestly don't understand your position on this one Reba.

Let me try and explain.. 40+ years being tought about 'the antichrist' i was raised a 'dispy' i have seen 'the charts' all my life. I remember asking " Dad, the bible doesnt say  X Y Z  why do we  say it does?  Getting older i saw we fit scripture to our theology when we should be fitting our theology to scripture. A subbtle difference but a real one. No where in scripture are we asked to search and disire to figure out who what may be some supposed antichrist. Mans theology has given the  book writers the doom saysers an icon.


 

Where does the Bible explicitly say there is a  rapture?

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

 

Reba...

 When Jesus returns to earth to destroy satan and his armies, He is depicted in Rev 19:14, as returning with His saints from Heaven. He then wipes out a whole bunch of men...

 Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.  


Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  



 So, there are some humans returning with Jesus from Heaven, and there are some humans on earth. Why were there some in Heaven?


if there's no rapture, we should all be on earth...and yet the bible clearly shows that not to be the case. The fact that there are some coming from Heaven with Jesus, fits in nicely with a rapture of His church. The fact that many are on earth also seemingly corroborates a rapture theme, where the unbelievers didn't return from Heaven, they apparently remained on earth...missed the flight out.

Bronzesnake.

 

 Sneakysnake, I never said or implied there was no second coming or as you say rapture. I will go on record as saying I do not accept the popular thoughts on ‘rapture’ and I am dumb enough to state so and not have a clear way of stating what I do believe.

[Krakenfürst]

Reba,

The problem is, there is no popular view about the rapture.  You are correct for being skeptical of what men say.  I desired to prove what I was taught to believe by finding it in the Bible.  To my despair I was proven wrong.  So I decided to accept what the Bible says instead of all the man made theology surrounding the pre-trib rapture.  I also discovered along the way there were many who agree with what I found out on my own.  You apparently aren't certain what you believe at this point.  I have trouble with understanding where you are coming from on this issue.   Please elaborate on your position so we can converse.  Its a complicated subject but surely you have reached some conclusions.


2 Bombs,

I don't want you to lure me into a debate on this thread about whether one can lose their salvation.  This is about the rapture but If you want to debate it please post a topic and I will be glad to get into it with you.  But for the record I believe you are flat out wrong.  

Have you sinned since you came to Christ.  If what you say is true then you were lost at that moment and must be saved again.  We do not have the power to lose our salvation just because we sin again.  If we say we do not sin then we are liars.  Just as we did not have the power to obtain a free gift on our own merits we do not have the power to lose it on our own merits.  It was given to us freely once and for all including the faith that it takes to accept it.  All we have to do is believe and act on that faith.  Once we believe, if we truly do, we are transformed and that is something that is not up to us to accomplish but it is the gift of God.  You put to much stake in what YOU did verses what GOD did if you believe otherwise.  You didn't save yourself God saved you and he will not lose a single one promised to him and nothing can take you away from him.  The reality is that even once we are saved we are not perfect but we are saved for the purpose of becomming perfect in Christ and that will happen, but it doesn't happen as long as we are in this body.

By the way, how's life treating you in South Africa.

All,

The Kraken still awaiteth for someone to defend the pre-trib rapture.  The jury is getting wrestless.  Perhaps some of you are reading your books again, consulting with experts and going over your charts and need a little more time.  Let me give you a little advice.  It wont help.  I am glancing up at my bookshelf and laughing at all the pre-trib prophecy books I have from all the different authors like Wolvoord, LeHaye, Lindsay, Hagee Bloomfield and others, just to name a few.  There is only one book that counts and that is the Bible.  Meanwhile I am just waiting here chatting with the Bomber, Reba and the Snake.

[Reba]

Reba,

The problem is, there is no popular view about the rapture.  

You are correct for being skeptical of what men say.  I desired to prove what I was taught to believe by finding it in the Bible.  To my despair I was proven wrong.  So I decided to accept what the Bible says instead of all the man made theology surrounding the pre-trib rapture.  I also discovered along the way there were many who agree with what I found out on my own.  You apparently aren't certain what you believe at this point.  I have trouble with understanding where you are coming from on this issue.  Please elaborate on your position so we can converse.  Its a complicated subject but surely you have reached some conclusions.

"You apparently aren't certain what you believe at this point."

Please dont confuse my lack of writing/word skills to my certainty as a believer. I am posttrib as i fall into the the camp labled orthodox preterism.

[Krakenfürst]

Rebia,

I am not confusing your uncertainty with anything having to do with whether you are a believer.  I was only implying that I thought you sounded uncertain about your beliefs concering the rapture.  But I have noticed that you simply like to disagree without saying what you do agree with.  I thought you were an atheist before but that was another....nevermind I am trying to forget.  So what is orthodox preterism with respect to post tribulational.  I really want to know.  Can you give me some insight on that.  Heck, for all I know I might be a postribulational unorthodox discombobulationalist.

[twobombs]

Frakenfuerst: Life is treating me nice over there, we'll be moving there permanent within 2 months time.

Back to the debate: when I use the term pre-trib believer I am talking about a whole group of people that were drawn to Christ by means of a fairytale. This fairytale is that we're outta here before or at the start of the 70th week of Daniel; the start of "Jacobs trouble". Some pre-trib believers might escape the lie. Others are already so sucked into the lie (eg: the US is waging a righteous war against terrorism) that the next lie (more security for wearing the beastchip) is already in place.

In that light I want you to read the following parable:

Luk 14:16   Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luk 14:17   And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18   And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:19   And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:20   And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
Luk 14:21   So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
Luk 14:22   And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
Luk 14:23   And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24   For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

and further on:
Luk 14:33   So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

_____________________
paraiteomai {par-ahee-teh'-om-ahee} to make excuse
1) to ask along side, beg to have near one
a) to obtain by entreaty
b) to beg from, to ask for, supplicate
2) to avert by entreaty or seek to avert, to deprecate
a) to entreat that ... not
b) to refuse, decline
c) to shun, avoid
d) to avert displeasure by entreaty
1) to beg pardon, crave indulgence, to excuse
2) of one excusing himself for not accepting a wedding invitation to a feast
___________________

as to 1d > Rev 3:17   Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:  [talking about Laodicea, the lukewarm church of the last days]
Rev 3:19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
____________________

Jesus himself will ask all at the end of the end to all of his discipes, the multitudes, the millions the test: for a short period of time.

Dan 11:35   And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.

And the result will be that he will have the refined remnant at the end of this period :

Jhn 6:68   Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

No Laodicean will enter the kingkom of God unless they repent from their lush way of life, and the way to make that sure we all shall suffer (a short time) by means of not wearing the mark of the beast, clearly showing to God that we are serious and believe:

Mat 19:21   Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22   But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23   Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In John, Jesus clearly connects His own rapture to the forsaking of the flesh. So should we, and take heed when we espect our own:

Jhn 6:62   [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

And hereby I rest my case: for it has been proven time and time again.

[CrystalPc]

I was taught from a child pretrib rapture, then I began to study the scripture itself. The scripture that convinced me that it would not happen was
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I don't want this to be so, because I do believe that day is upon us.  O how I wish that I believed what I was taught from a child. Especially when Revelations tell us that satan will work to kill so many of us, and it appears by beheading!
I am not young anymore, and would welcome a pre-trib rapture, but now I  pray for strength and endurance, and how to hold my faith in patience..
Yet even so Lord Jesus come.  

Amen

[Reba]

Rebia,

I am not confusing your uncertainty with anything having to do with whether you are a believer.  I was only implying that I thought you sounded uncertain about your beliefs concering the rapture.  But I have noticed that you simply like to disagree without saying what you do agree with.  I thought you were an atheist before but that was another....nevermind I am trying to forget.  So what is orthodox preterism with respect to post tribulational.  I really want to know.  Can you give me some insight on that.  Heck, for all I know I might be a postribulational unorthodox discombobulationalist.

SHEESH


My words will not do justice to the theology but in a nut shell here goes I dont like being sent to sites so i will try .... I this is me not a group or a movement just my little ol thoughts...

I believe in the return of Christ...

I believe what we read in Revelation was God's distruction of the old covenant the distruction of Jerusalem's temple and the 'temple life' .  The 'generation' that died, ended  was the generation that murdered Jesus (luke 11). I believe the CROSS to be the center of all history past and future.

[Bronzesnake]

Reba...
 
 
 Sneakysnake?
I might be a lot of things, but sneaky is not one of them. I don't really appreciate being called that my friend.


Kraken...
 I have a problem with Christians who accuse other Christians of mocking those who oppose their own doctrinal beliefs, and yet they believe it's ok if they do it...

kraken quote...
 

My pastor teaches it routinely as gospel truth and mocks anyone from the pulpit who believes otherwise, boldly stating that he will say “I told you so” all the way to heaven

 You have continually mocked and insulted others who believe in a pre-trib rapture. Your entire opening post is loaded with mocking accusations my friend...

 

Arrogance and condescension abound in the pre-trib camp but they do not want to debate the issue one on one with a Bible in hand.  They are like Mormons and their talking points.  They can’t debate with the scripture on this

Others are already so sucked into the lie

I am talking about a whole group of people that were drawn to Christ by means of a fairytale.
 

 It's also very ironic that your entire argument against a pre-trib raptures lies in the way pre-tribbers seemingly extract information out of the scriptures through examination of biblical clues. You express that, the bible doesn't explicitly say their is a pre-tib rapture...

 

My complaint is simple and it is based on a simple question your Honor.  Where does the Bible explicitly say there is a pre-trib rapture?

In other words, if the bible doesn't explicitly express "it" then "it" is false.

 The irony is that you seem to feel it's ok for yourself to draw conclusions based on Biblical clues, yet, when others do it they are "fooled by fairytales"
 

The 144k which consists of 12K each from the 12 tribes of Israel is a very difficult issue because Revelations is so full of figurative language.  But I believe it means far more than just 144k Jewish evangelist.  Rather I believe this is representative of ALL nations who are part of the People of God that come together during this time.

Where does the Bible explicitly say the 144,000 are  "representative of ALL nations who are part of the People of God that come together during this time"

On the contrary, the Bible explicitly says the 144,000 are JEWS.

 You are a walking, breathing contradiction my friend. Your strongest argument is that you have the correct answers, as though directly from God the Father, whereas those who oppose your views are those who..

infringed upon the Truth and has submitted the same as a substitute for the truth

 You need to come down off your high horse, and realize that it is just as likely that you may be as wrong as you claim we are. Unless, of course, you believe you are infallible.

 Debate is fine, it's how we learn. However, you go further than just debate, you mock and insult from your position of self righteous arrogance.

Bronzesnake.

[Reba]

Reba...


Sneakysnake?
I might be a lot of things, but sneaky is not one of them. I don't really appreciate being called that my friend.

Before i read any more of your post let me say SORRY no offence was meant. My daughter had a toy snake she called Sneakyssnake. I will not do that again.  

[Bronzesnake]

There is not one specific place in the Bible where the Rapture can be found. The Bible is not set up as a "fact by fact" listing. We must take the Bible literally. We must also read and understand what God is telling us. We can take several verses from different books and come up with a "total" picture.

 For example...

 Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.  

 If you read Dan 9:27 you will see that satan signs a seven year peace deal. It turns out to be a false peace, however, most Christians agree that satan's seven year peace deal is also the seven year tribulation time. We know that Jesus returns at the end of the seven year tribulation. So, we can know when Jesus returns at the second coming. Therefore, verses such as Mat.24:36 and others which speak of a day and hour which no man shall know, must be relating another event besides the actual second coming. I believe these verses speak of the Rapture.


 Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 In the days of Noah, God warned people through Noah, that there was a devastating judgement coming which they could only survive by entering the arc. Noah and his family were not left to float with the unbelievers, not even for a minute. Noah and his family never even felt so much as a single drop of rain on the heads. Noah and his family entered the arc before the rain came...before God's judgement began. In Mat 24:37 , Jesus says it will be the same for Christians at the rapture.
 Noah and his family were lifted up on the waves, and away from God's judgement. We will be lifted up on the clouds and away from God's judgement.


 Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  


 Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

These verses describe some being taken, and others being left behind...

 Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  


 Mat 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  


 Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 Being left to face wrath and or tribulation ( God's judgement)
Doesn't sound too comforting to me.

 Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

 This verse must really bug post tribers and those who don't believe in any rapture at all. It clearly shows God's saints (Christians) returning with Jesus. Notice where we came from?God says we were in Heaven.

 When we put all these verses (and there are more) together, we can come up with a big picture.

Bronzesnake.

[Reba]

Noah safely went through the flood.