The Word of God vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Eddielee]

 We pre-tribs believe we will be raptured before God's wrath. We believe tribulation is God's wrath in action. We also believe that many will be saved during the tribulation. So the verses you pasted such as Mat 24:22" the elect's sake" relates to them.

As far as the reference to Daniel's 70th week...I don't see the point you are trying to make. We believe satan will take control of earth for seven years. The first three and a half years by means of spiritual possession of a world leader who appears to be a great peace maker. The final three and a half years, satan takes over in physical form and claims to be God.
 

So, if the tribulation is the wrath of God, and Satan is controling the earth, and setting up the greatest abomination of all time, committing the greatest descration and act of idolatry ever, does that make Satan God's agent for his wrath?

This is kind of like the Preterist argument, that the Roman armies were the wrath of God falling down on Jerusalem.

Here is what Isaiah says:
Isaiah 2:
10Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
        From the terror of the LORD
        And the glory of His majesty.
        11The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
        The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
        And the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

        12For the day of the LORD of hosts
        Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
        Upon everything lifted up--
        And it shall be brought low--
        13Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up,
        And upon all the oaks of Bashan;
        14Upon all the high mountains,
        And upon all the hills that are lifted up;
        15Upon every high tower,
        And upon every fortified wall;
        16Upon all the ships of Tarshish,
        And upon all the beautiful sloops.
        17The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
        And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
        The LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
        18But the idols He shall utterly abolish.

So then, how can the wrath of God be poured out by the devil? Is this the wrath of God? :
Revelation 6:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


So here, if this is God's wrath, being poured out by Satan, then God is killing his own children??

It doesn't make sense to define the tribulation period as "the wrath of God" which believers are spared from (1 Thes 4).

Maybe you should read it again, because after Jesus says "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days", He does not refer to " to how the elect will be taken up, gathered together to him in the sky" He actually describes His second coming. He actually says that He sends His angels to gather us from Heaven. We are already there - the rapture has already taken place.

Well, lets read it in Mark:
Mark 13:
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Is this a third rapture? The first one in 1 Thessalonians 4, the second one in Matthew 24 and now a third in Mark 13?

Really, it's obvious that it can't be read that way;

In my opinion there is only one event being described in these 3 passages.  

[Bronzesnake]

eddielee.

 Where did I say satan pours out wrath?

God pours out His wrath on all inhabitants of earth...including satan.

 Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

 This isn't a rapture eddielee, it's not a catching up to Heaven, it's a gathering of His saints from heaven.

However, there are two raptures. One for His faithful saints before the tribulation, and one for the tribulation saints who were beheaded for refusing to worship the beast, or take his mark. They were beheaded.

Bronzesnake.

[Eddielee]

If: a.) The wrath of God starts at the beginning of the 70th week...
   And:  b.) Satan is controlling the world during the 70th week...
     Then: c.) God alone is not being exalted during his wrath.
        Thus: d.) God's wrath cannot coincide with Satan's control over the world.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

This isn't a rapture eddielee, it's not a catching up to Heaven, it's a gathering of His saints from heaven

So this event is not the same as Mark 13?

24"But in those days, following that distress,
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

The pretrib view is that Mark 13 and Matthew 24 are not describing the same gathering of the elect?
 

[Krakenfürst]

Wow,

So many excellent posts to respond to I don’t know where to begin.  The bronze serpent wins the award for having the most well ordered and logical arguments in favor of pre-tribulationism but unfortunately he has read too many books that I am about to slaughter with the sword.  This is evidenced by virtue of his backing down at the last minute and confessing that what he is proselytizing is merely his opinion.  I get that a lot.  

According to Pre-tribs there are:

2 First Resurrections (The one mentioned in the Bible and their fairytale)
2 Second Comings (The one mentioned in the Bible and their fairytale secret rapture)
2 Raptures (The one mentioned in the Bible that they have coopted as being theirs and the one that is clearly post trib mentioned in Revelation 16:15 and other places even though they are one in the same event)
2 Days of the Lord (The one God is telling us about that is going to bring wrath and massive destruction in a final cataclysmic event and their fairytale secret rapture that makes what God is telling us about in the real day irrelevant to us because we won’t be here)
2 People(s) of God (The Church and Israel, totally separate at the end according to dispensational speak)
2 Elects of God - (We are the elect elect who don’t go through the tribulation unlike the elect of Matt 24)
2 sets of Saints (The Church is the “other” saints mentioned throughout the NT who do not go through the tribulation in Revelation)

1. Snake says we ignore Rev 19:14 where “God says we are in heaven”.  Where does God say that?  I am sorry but it simply says that the armies of heaven are following him [Christ] upon his return.  Stop quoting pre-trib propaganda and adding to the scripture.  This is a reference to those Christ will bring with him on his REAL return and actually since at the same time the rapture also takes place and those who are alive will join him in the air it means that those alive when he returns also are following him don’t you think?.  It never mentions that we are ALL in heaven via the rapture seven years earlier, so don’t say it.  Remember that little passage in 1 Thess 4:14 which YOU conveniently left out, “We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  This also agrees with Zech 14: 5 where God says he will bring the Holy Ones with him.  Hey pre-tribs you can’t reconcile this Old Testament verse or the pre-trib rapture to when Daniel is resurrected which God clearly places at the end of the tribulation in Daniel 12:13 unless you say that Daniel alone is not resurrected at the time of the rapture and has no part of the wedding feast that you’ll be supposedly digging in heaven for seven years.   Since the Resurrection of Daniel would also likely be at the same time as other Old Testament saints, are you suggesting that none of the prophets, David, Joshua, Moses, and all those guys will be part of the first resurrection you’ll be participating in.  The most slovenly backslidden Christian gets resurrected before all the Old Testament Saints?  But, keep in mind this is not the first, but the first, first resurrection before the first one actually mentioned in the Bible.  You guys are in trouble and you add a little here, take a little there.  

2. Snake says, “Here in Revelation 4:1 we once again here the trump of God…this is the last time you can find the trump of God sounded in Revelation”.  Excuse me!  And I suppose those next seven trumpets sounded by the seven angels are not the trumpets of God but the Boston philharmonic?   There should have been trombones given to the angels.  Give me a break.  I have heard a great many outrageous lies by pre-tribs but his one is a new one I haven’t heard before.  But this has to take the cake.  Someone has been reading their Bible and discovered yet another inexplicable contradiction to reconcile.  The reason is you have to say this is because you can’t reconcile it with Cor. 15:52 where it says “the Last Trumpet” even though it doesn’t say the last trumpet of God there.  Again I give you pre-trib exegesis at its best.  Take a little bit here, add a little bit there, we will make it fit no matter what we don’t care.

I’ll pick the rest up tomorrow.  It’s late and I have had to deal with a little witch on another thread so I’m tuckered out.  

Kraken

[twobombs]

Hi Krack,

Dunno why you are using so much energy & time to convince pretribbers that they are wrong ?

As much as 90% might fall away during the first years of the trib,
and the rest of them will quickly need to modify their eschatology.

Where's the big deal here ?

2B

[Bronzesnake]

kraken, you're kraken up!

 

1. Snake says we ignore Rev 19:14 where “God says we are in heaven”.  Where does God say that?  I am sorry but it simply says that the armies of heaven are following him [Christ] upon his return.  Stop quoting pre-trib propaganda and adding to the scripture.  This is a reference to those Christ will bring with him on his REAL return and actually since at the same time the rapture also takes place and those who are alive will join him in the air it means that those alive when he returns also are following him don’t you think?.  It never mentions that we are ALL in heaven via the rapture seven years earlier, so don’t say it.

 I don't believe you have any authority to tell me what I can or can not say here my friend. The Bible never says the rapture and the second coming happen at the same time either..."so don't say it"!

 So, you believe that the rapture and the second coming happen at the same time?

 Let me blow that one out of the water for ya...

 I've already offered good evidence which shows a rapture happening at Rev 4 I compared some details of rapture verses with similar details found in Rev 3 & 4.
 Are we in agreement that Revelation is in chronological order?

 So far, you haven't shown any corroborating evidence by matching the rapture verses details with verses that corroborate your beliefs.

 For the time being, we'll set that fact aside so we can examine other elements found in Revelation...

 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 Here, in Rev 4:4 we see twenty four elders who are most likely twelve Old Testament saints, and twelve New Testament saints. Even if we can't agree on that, we can understand that these elders are humans... How can we do that?
 Look at what they are wearing...
clothed in white raiment We know these are humans by the following verse...

 Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 This verse makes it a certainty that the twenty four elders are in fact humans in Heaven, before any wrath or tribulation even begins.

 There's more...

 "and they had on their heads crowns of gold. "

 This is very interesting indeed. How is it that these humans, who are in Heaven, have crowns of gold on their heads?
 They have been judged by Jesus and have received their rewards! This doesn't happen until after the rapture my friend! They have been washed clean, and they have crowns of gold on their heads. And all before any wrath or tribulation. This is a death roll to your theory my friend. How are you going to wriggle out of this one. There's no explaining it away.

But wait! it doesn't stop there...

  Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  


 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

 What's this? more humans in Heaven, and long before you say they should be there? These are not Old Testament saints my friend, they are identified with their brethren, who are still on earth, going through tribulation, because they missed the rapture, but were saved afterward. The point here is that those who died during the tribulation went to Heaven way before you claim they should be there.

 Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;  

 Wowee! This is most inconvenient! All these New Testament saints up there in Heaven. Don't they know they shouldn't be there? How do I know they are New Testament saints?

 Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  


 Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  

 Your theory that the second coming and the rapture happening at the same time just doesn't fit the scriptures my friend.
 
Pre Tribbers have always stated that the rapture occurs before wrath or tribulation. That there would be many, many people left behind who would realize their mistake, and accept Jesus during the tribulation. That many of these tribulation saints would be hunted down and murdered, and this is exactly what we find in the scriptures.

 kraken... Tell me, is everyone who doesn't believe in your theories a propagandist?
 We happen to disagree on this one, why do you have to be so annoying about it? Are you incapable of having a civil, intelligent debate without spewing off these childish, half witted insults?

 Do you honestly believe you are incapable of making a mistake? Do you believe you are perfect? Are you 100% correct all the time? Or just on this one?

 Evidence can be aligned to point in more than one direction my friend.
 I happen to believe the pre trib explanation best fits the totality of the facts. I feel the pre trib scenario accounts for the full body of evidence in the most optimal way. Am I 100% sure? Of course not...and if you're honest about it, you'll admit the same.

 So come on my friend, we're all on the same team here,... well, most of us are. So let's calm it down a notch and carry on in a civil, intelligent manner, like good Christians should.

Bronzesnake.

[Bronzesnake]

Hi Krack,

Dunno why you are using so much energy & time to convince pretribbers that they are wrong ?

As much as 90% might fall away during the first years of the trib,
and the rest of them will quickly need to modify their eschatology.

Where's the big deal here ?

2B

Did you pull that percentage out of a hat twobombs?  

Bronzesnake.

[Bronzesnake]

Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?

From TRIUMPHANT RETURN
by Grant R. Jeffrey


Several incorrect premises have caused some to reject the pretribulation Rapture and accept the position called the "postribulation Rapture." The first premise is an emotional contention that it would be unfair for the modern Church to escape to heaven scot free to escape the martyrdom that other believers have experienced. While it is easy to understand such an emotion, it would be wrong to deny the doctrine of the pretribulation Rapture on this basis alone. The reality is that while many Christians have endured tremendous persecutions and tribulations, untold millions of believers have lived out their lives in times of peace. Furthermore, all of those Christians who died in either peace or persecution throughout history have already escaped the Great Tribulation.

An underlying attitude of many critics is their inorrect and unscriptural belief that the Church will somehow be purified by enduring the wrath of the Antichrist. However, the Scriptures declare that we are purified solely by the completed work of Christ on the Cross. If the Lord delays His return much longer, the rising tide of persecution of Christians affect the Church across the world. However, this will not constitute the Tribulation period which will be characterized by the wrath of God poured out from heaven on the unrepentant sinners during the final seven years of this age. Some critics have claimed that those who teach the hope of the pretribulation rapture are leaving Christians unprepared for the possibility of the coming persecution of the Tribulation period. However, in thirty-five years of teaching Bible prophecy, I have not witnessed pretribulation Rapture teachers instructing Christians that they are immune from end-time persecution. The prophecy teachers, myself included, who believe God promises that Christians will escape "wrath of God" in the Tribulation often warn believers that persecution is coming, even in North America, if the Lord tarries much longer. However, the postribulation Rapture position can rob the Church of her blessed hope. Jesus promised, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

The second and more important reason why some are teaching that the Church will be present during this terrible time is the failure to distinguish between God's plan for Israel and His plan for the Church, especially in the prophecy revealed by Christ in Matthew 24. They often acknowledge that there is strong biblical evidence for a pretribulation Rapture; however, they inevitably come back to their interpretation of Matthew 24, which seems to indicate that the Rapture follows the events of the Great Tribulation.

In the passage in Matthew 24, Christ is on the Temple Mount explaining to His Jewish disciples the events that will occur in Israel and in other nations that will lead to the return of Christ as their Jewish Messiah. The disciples' question that Jesus was answering concerned the coming of Israel's long-promised Kingdom, not the coming of Christ for His Church (which they did not even know about). It is easy to forget that, at this point, before the crucifixion of our Lord and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, there was no such thing as a Christian Church. If you had told one of the disciples during the week before Christ's crucifixion that someday there would be an organization based on Christ's teachings, called the Church, and that 99 percent of its members would be uncircumcised Gentiles who would follow neither Jewish law nor offer Temple sacrifices, he would probably have fallen off his chair in shock and disbelief. One of the classic mistakes in interpretation is to take this conversation between Christ and His Jewish disciples concerning the messianic kingdom and read back into it the reality of the Christian Church which did not come into existence until the Jews rejected Christ and God breathed life into His Body of believers.

Since Christ does not mention the Church to His disciples in this conversation, the plain interpretation is that Israel is the primary focus of the Prophecy of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 speaks of the Great Tribulation, and beginning at verse 15, Christ states that the Antichrist will set up the "abomination of desolation" (a supernatural statue of the Antichrist) to be worshiped in the Temple. In verses 40 and 41, Jesus says, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." A vital question for students of the Bible is the identity of these people who "shall be taken." Does this prophecy refer to the Church or does it reveal God's plans for the Tribulation saint who become believers after the Rapture?

 To Continue On Next Post...

[Bronzesnake]

This chapter tells us that at the end of the Great Tribulation, God will send His angels and "they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (verse 31). These "elect" are the people who become believers during the Great Tribulation of three and one-half years. This gathering together is not the Rapture. This gathering of Tribulation believers takes place at the end of the Tribulation, whereas the Rapture of the Church occurs sometime prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation when Antichrist sets himself up as "God" in the Temple. Notice that the angels "gather the elect" (verse 31), whereas, at the time of the Rapture, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16--17). This gathering of the "elect" Tribulation saints will occur at the conclusion of three and one-half years --- a period of time for which there are the most detailed prophecies found in the Bible.

The Bible describes many Tribulation events that must occur prior to the "gathering" of the Tribulation saints and thus, it cannot be correctly described as "imminent." These facts have caused many scholars to believe that this "gathering" is, therefore, a different event than the "Rapture" of the Church. However, when we turn our attention to the coming of Christ for His Church, we find that there are no warnings or signals given to indicate the time of the Rapture. The Rapture can literally occur at any time.

The third reason postribulationist writers have attacked the pretribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no Church writer or Reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago until it was introduced by John Darby, a Plymouth Brethren. Their argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the pretribulation Rapture. The only problem is that their assertion that no one in the early Church taught the pretribulation Rapture has been found to be incorrect.

Obviously the truth about the time of the Rapture can be found only in Scripture. The Protestant Reformation was based essentially on this return to the authority of the Bible. The Latin phrase sola Scriptura, meaning "Scripture alone" became the rallying cry of the Reformers who ignored centuries of tradition and church councils in their insistence that truth could only be discovered in the Word of God. While the resolution of this issue must be based on our interpretation of Scripture, it is important to answer the errors of our opponents, who disparage "the blessed hope" of the Rapture with misinformation about the modern rediscovery of the truth about the pretribulation Rapture.

A Discovery that the Pretribulation Rapture Was Taught in the Early Church

During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture in the early church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pretribulation Rapture

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until I wrote FINAL WARNING in 1995. Some scholars suggested that this manuscript was written several centuries later (5th or 6th century) but definitely before the birth of Islam in 622. However William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.2

[Reba]

All right guys  

ENOUGH OF THIS....
 My view is the only correct one, mine i tell ya mine Sheesh.....


  The Scripture is written isn such a fashion it is always new and fresh! What a BOOK! There is not another book that can be so disscussed so ripped apart and rearanged. And yet it remains solid stedfast and true... Thank You Lord for Your  wonderfull Word...

[twobombs]

Hi Krack,

Dunno why you are using so much energy & time to convince pretribbers that they are wrong ?

As much as 90% might fall away during the first years of the trib,
and the rest of them will quickly need to modify their eschatology.

Where's the big deal here ?

2B

Did you pull that percentage out of a hat twobombs?  

Bronzesnake.

a remnant is mathematically 1-10 percent, I give 1-10% slack.
A few posts back in this thread I gave information as to why/when/how.
Are you reading my posts, Bronze ?

[Aiki Storm]

Kraken

This is your post and that is fine.  You have caused people to argue over the pre-trib issue.  I am not really sure that you have told us what you believe, besides being against the pre-trib thought.  Why don't you post your beliefs down and let us show you how we think you are wrong  If you are post trib we could easily slam your views as you are doing to us.

[Reba]

Back a million years ago in the 50's. We ( Mom Dad & us kids) just knew Jesus would come and get us before " The Great Tribulation!"  Then questions get asked.... Well why was Dan in the lions den? Noah was safe but in the flood some like to say he was above the flood ok, he was still in the rain. Shadrac Meshack and Abendgo were in the fire. The Israellites were in Egypt during the plagues. And  " The Great Tribulation" is not a scripture quote. I am not saying there is not tribulation or even great tribulation. Cause Jesus says great tribulation ....maybe my thoughts are clear ... hope so...

[Aiki Storm]

Back a million years ago in the 50's. We ( Mom Dad & us kids) just knew Jesus would come and get us before " The Great Tribulation!"  Then questions get asked.... Well why was Dan in the lions den? Noah was safe but in the flood some like to say he was above the flood ok, he was still in the rain. Shadrac Meshack and Abendgo were in the fire. The Israellites were in Egypt during the plagues. And  " The Great Tribulation" is not a scripture quote. I am not saying there is not tribulation or even great tribulation. Cause Jesus says great tribulation ....maybe my thoughts are clear ... hope so...

-----------------------------------------------------------
yes they are very clear.
I have no idea how things will happen exactly and neither does anyone else on this forum.  I do believe however that we WILL not suffer God's wrath.  However we avoid it is fine with me.  

[Bronzesnake]

Back a million years ago in the 50's. We ( Mom Dad & us kids) just knew Jesus would come and get us before " The Great Tribulation!"  Then questions get asked.... Well why was Dan in the lions den? Noah was safe but in the flood some like to say he was above the flood ok, he was still in the rain. Shadrac Meshack and Abendgo were in the fire. The Israellites were in Egypt during the plagues. And  " The Great Tribulation" is not a scripture quote. I am not saying there is not tribulation or even great tribulation. Cause Jesus says great tribulation ....maybe my thoughts are clear ... hope so...

Hi Reeb...

You always make more sense than any of us rambling stumblebums!