The Word of God vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[twobombs]

Wrath = one thing
Trib = another

Just as everyone always seperates the
first from latter part of the 70th week......

[Bronzesnake]

Reba...


Sneakysnake?
I might be a lot of things, but sneaky is not one of them. I don't really appreciate being called that my friend.

Before i read any more of your post let me say SORRY no offence was meant. My daughter had a toy snake she called Sneakyssnake. I will not do that again.  

 Now I feel bad...

 I wasn't sure if you were being serious, or just playful...
Now that I know about "sneakysnake" I feel a wee bit foolish for having thought of you in a bad light.
You have always seemed so honest and even playful at times...
I am sorry I doubted you Reeb!

Bronzesnake.

[Bronzesnake]

Noah safely went through the flood.

Actually...Noah was lifted up and out of danger.
Not one human who went through the flood survived.

[Bronzesnake]

Wrath = one thing
Trib = another

Just as everyone always seperates the
first from latter part of the 70th week......

 The tribulation is God's wrath in action.
How can you seperate them?

[Reba]

Reba...


Sneakysnake?
I might be a lot of things, but sneaky is not one of them. I don't really appreciate being called that my friend.

Before i read any more of your post let me say SORRY no offence was meant. My daughter had a toy snake she called Sneakyssnake. I will not do that again.  

 Now I feel bad...

 I wasn't sure if you were being serious, or just playful...
Now that I know about "sneakysnake" I feel a wee bit foolish for having thought of you in a bad light.
You have always seemed so honest and even playful at times...
I am sorry I doubted you Reeb!

Bronzesnake.

    Now back to fun fighting Thanks Mr. Bronzesnake

[CrystalPc]

Noah safely went through the flood.

Actually...Noah was lifted up and out of danger.
Not one human who went through the flood survived.

You are right Noah safely went through the flood, however, he was able to hear all that was going on around him. Why do you think God had to seal the door? Noah was a human who had feelings, for women, children,and babes.
In Noah's days scripture says violence (hamas) filled the earth. We are seeing the same things in these last days, and God can protect us through, but I don't think that he is going to "lift us out"

[Reba]

Noah safely went through the flood.

Actually...Noah was lifted up and out of danger.
Not one human who went through the flood survived.

You are right Noah safely went through the flood, however, he was able to hear all that was going on around him. Why do you think God had to seal the door? Noah was a human who had feelings, for women, children,and babes.
In Noah's days scripture says violence (hamas) filled the earth. We are seeing the same things in these last days, and God can protect us through, but I don't think that he is going to "lift us out"

Matt 6:28-7:1

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Rom 5:17

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
KJV

Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.KJV

We are the KINGS kids Jesus was/is victorius! HE is our rest or peace or hope.... Ol Peter would still be walking on the water if he haddent taken his eyes off Jesus. Pete look at the things around himself and started to sink..... Keep you eyes on HIM only in HIM is there hope... Trust your heavenly Father to give you bread HE will not give you stone...

[twobombs]

Wrath = one thing
Trib = another

Just as everyone always seperates the
first from latter part of the 70th week......

 The tribulation is God's wrath in action.
How can you seperate them?

Why not ? It's cause and effect in action.

[Bronzesnake]

Wrath = one thing
Trib = another

Just as everyone always seperates the
first from latter part of the 70th week......

 The tribulation is God's wrath in action.
How can you seperate them?

Why not ? It's cause and effect in action.

Exactly!

[Krakenfürst]

Bomber,

The Church and its association with Israel in the last days is an interesting portrait in scripture.  One of the important things that I do not agree with concerning pre-trib doctrine is that it assumes incorrectly that all Christians, rather than many being Laodiceans, are all Philadelphians and are promised not to go through the tribulation because they equate that with wrath.  In other words the final condition of the Church is perhaps no better than it is today, a deeply divided and quarrelsome bunch of denominations.   But the Bible speaks of a singular purified Church.  It speaks of a Church purified and made righteous through tribulation and a time of trouble.  It speaks of a people that God himself does a work among to bring about a truly righteous Church that will be without spot or blemish when Christ returns.   This is not a work we can undertake ourselves but it is one in which the Holy Spirit will guide.  Pre-tribs at present consider this a fairytale even though it is clearly illustrated in the prophetic scripture.  That is why I see the pre-trib doctrine as a great evil.  Furthermore, this Church will include the remnant of Israel who will make a wholesale return to Christ at some point.  There is nothing but a cataclysm of Biblical proportions that can propel these events.  This is precisely what the verse in Daniel 11:35 alludes to.

I must disagree with your assessment of what it means to be a Christian.  People do not come to Christ under false pretense if they truly have come to him.  The soundness of the doctrine of salvation makes it very easy to become saved so that even a child can understand, but very difficult to accept on a purely intellectual level.  Once in that infantile condition it is up to Christians to allow God to perform a work in our lives that transforms us into mature Christians.   The problem is there are many suckling infants in the Church who have never grown past the desire for milk to a level where they eat solid food.  That food is the Word of God and doing the will of God.

I do not see how the “lie” has any connection to the war in Iraq or against terrorism.  That is a purely short sighted political statement that has no basis in fact.  The US war against terrorism is NOT part of the great lie.  If you are convinced that the mark of the beast is merely a chip then that is your opinion, but it is much deeper than that.  I personally would not accept a chip for numerous reasons, but it certainly has no basis in scripture for being the mark that condemns someone to hell unless it is accompanied by an affirmative denial that Jesus Christ is Lord.  That is the lie.  The mark is a statement of what you believe and it is accompanied by what you do.  The mark on the forehead or right hand alludes to one’s beliefs and the works of your hands.  It is the counter to the seal of God that will accompany believers.  For this reason it will be impossible for someone who is truly saved to accept the mark and worship the beast.  The Bible mentions a day when there will be a separation of the peoples before the day of the Lord into two camps, those who are truly righteous and those who are not.   There will be a clear distinction between the two.  Those who are not born of Christ will accept the mark and those who belong to Christ will not.  The Bible also says that Jesus will not lose a single one that is promised to Him

[Krakenfürst]

Snake,

There is a distinction between tribulation for the saints and the wrath of God for the unbeliever.  The saints will suffer many things, no less than what the early Church suffered in its infancy, at the hands of the beast in Revelation.  Just as many were put to death for their faith and overcame, so too will those who are alive during this time make no less a sacrifice.  

Rev 7:14.  “I answered, "Sir, you know."   And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

John 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Romans 8:35-25, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?  As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."”

Rev 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Rev 6:9, “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.”

Rev 13:7, “He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them…”

The problem with so many in the Church in America is that they do not have any idea what is going to happen to them.  Suffering for their faith to them means they will have to face some office ridicule or suffer a financial setback.  They truly believe they will be raptured from behind the steering wheel of their SUVs or while in an easy chair watching a ball game.   Amazingly they have conveniently left out what the Bible says and they neatly segregate themselves from the saints of Revelation by virtue of dispensationalism.  They won’t be here, so they claim, and the scriptures are only references to those unfortunate fools who are left behind and become saved afterward.  There will come a day when ALL your gold and money will be worthless.  The Church needs to wake up!

[Krakenfürst]

Crystal

Way to go!   Diddo here!  I have had this pre-trib propaganda junk taught to me ever since I was a little nub.  I was always very interested in prophecy so I wanted to find it for myself.   So, I started to read the Bible and low and behold the rapture is not only absent from the Bible it is directly and convincingly refuted by the Bible.  I was crushed for a little while, and then I became increasingly upset that I was not being told the truth.  I had an epiphany that I should fight it because it is deceptive and in my view that makes it evil.


Ebia,

I hardly understand a darn thing you said.    Other than I gather you believe Revelation is a metaphor for what has already taken place.  I have to disagree because it is linked to so many events in the Old Testament and New that have yet to see their fulfillment as it concerns Israel and the Church.  

[twobombs]

Wrath = one thing
Trib = another

Just as everyone always seperates the
first from latter part of the 70th week......

 The tribulation is God's wrath in action.
How can you seperate them?

Why not ? It's cause and effect in action.

Exactly!

Mat 24:21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22   And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Dan 12:6   And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7   And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

1 + 2 + 0.5 = 3.5 years made up of 360 days, halfway the 70th week (one way or the other; it *is* separated and has always been)

[twobombs]

Bomber,
[...]
I must disagree with your assessment of what it means to be a Christian.  People do not come to Christ under false pretense if they truly have come to him.  The soundness of the doctrine of salvation makes it very easy to become saved so that even a child can understand, but very difficult to accept on a purely intellectual level.  Once in that infantile condition it is up to Christians to allow God to perform a work in our lives that transforms us into mature Christians.   The problem is there are many suckling infants in the Church who have never grown past the desire for milk to a level where they eat solid food.  That food is the Word of God and doing the will of God.
[...]

Hi Kraken,

At first I didn't want to disclose this :

Dan 11:34   Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

Rev 3:8   I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9   Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Philadelphia and an already judged Loadicean Church living together in the end time. Not all that say "Lord, Lord" can enter into the kingdom.

Greetings

[Reba]

I am amazed that God cant count to 70 with out studdering.