a question for all of you

[Left Coast]

I believe predestination is inconsistent with the Bible

There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Then why would God send strong delusion?

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The world represents the unsaved. It does not represent the entire population of the planet. It does not represent all of the unsaved. It represents those He has come to save.
Compare to:

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If He was the savior of the whole world you’d think He would pray for the world. He prays for those God has given him. A select group.
Just think about this for a minute.
How many times does a sin have to be paid for?
I am going to trust you understand only once.
To pay for our sins Jesus literally had to suffer the equivalency of an eternity in hell for every sin we have ever committed. He had to make the full payment.
He began this in the garden of Gethsemane.
He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mt 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Count backward.
Day 3 - Sunday He rose from the grave.
Night 3 - Saturday night He was in the grave
Day 2 - Saturday He was in the grave.
Night 2 - Friday night in the grave.
Day 1 - Friday on the cross
Night 1 - Thursday night in the garden.

There are some key words to show He began the payment while in the Garden.

Lu 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

He was in agony - suffering.
A very strange statement - sweat as drops of blood.
Sweat points to His work.
His Blood washes us clean from our sins.

Re 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

God chose the words very deliberately.
If He paid for the sins of every single person on the planet then there are only two possibilities.
1. No one goes to hell. The sins of Judas - paid. The sins of Hitler - paid. The sins of Saddam’s sons - paid.
If they do go to hell then it is because of the second possibility.
2. Christ gets a refund on the immense suffering He endured. That is not possible.
The only possibility is He only made the payment for those that would become saved.
It could be He knew who would freely choose Him (your way), or it could be He knew who He would choose (my way). It is not possible that he paid for the sins of those that will be in hell.

The Bible says God desires the salvation of those who are perishing. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 says, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

The way you are trying to understand this contradicts scripture.
Not only John 17:9 as shown above but other verses also. Such as:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Why hide it from them if he wants them to come to repentance?
God did not create man as a sinner, but Adam sinned so we all perish. God never wanted it, but He knew it would happen.
God also wants man to come to repentance, but no one will of their own power.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

We can’t blame God for the position we are in, but our position is hopeless, unless He intervenes and rescues (saves) us.

More to come....

[Left Coast]

Some selective salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him. Also, remember L.C. that Jesus offered him a way to be saved, but he could not part with his riches.

It doesn’t say he turned his back on Jesus and it doesn’t say he could not part with his riches. Read this a little more carefully.

Mr 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mr 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

One of the reasons I decided to answer your post is because this very topic just came up on another forum I am involved in.
I don’t believe the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, I believe Jesus saved him. He was grieved because he had things he did not want to give up.
There are a lot of sins we can’t wait to get rid of. But there are others we want to hold on to. For instance:
Two people in love, unmarried and living together. One becomes saved the other does not. The one that is saved realizes they must leave the relationship. They still love the other person but even marriage is not a possibility because then they would be unequally yoked.
Don’t you agree that would be very grievous? This rich young ruler was not miserable in his world, he was very comfortable. He wasn’t hurting anyone with his lifestyle, to give it up would be grievous.
There are some very definite statements concerning Gods love.
While Billy Graham might say Jesus loves everyone, I have never been able to find scripture to support that.
My former pastor spent 6-8 sermons trying to prove it, I felt he was trying to force a square peg into a too small round hole with a sledge hammer.
He gives good sermons but in this case he only proved to me that there is no evidence.
The fact God hated Esau does not contradict the scripture.

Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

The bible says God hates all sinners.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

For me the question is why did he love Jacob? Of the two Esau seemed to be the good son.
I think the answer is that when we become saved all of our sins are washed clean. God not only forgives our sins but he forgets them, and so He no longer sees us as sinners.
So in John when he mentions the one whom the Lord loved he is pointing to a special relationship not the same relationship everyone has.

John 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 21:20 ¶ Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

There are many verses that isolate those Jesus loved from the rest of mankind.

John 11:3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
John 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
John 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (for he was naked,)and did cast himself into the sea.

Even before the birth of Jesus

2Sa 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

We cannot become saved unless God chooses to love us.

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

If we are not saved the love of the father is not in us.

1Jo 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

When we become saved we are changed and are seen as righteous in the eyes of God. He no longer sees or remembers our sins.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

He loves those that follow after righteousness, those that have been saved.

Pr 15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Do you think He could cast someone into the lake of fire for all eternity that He loved?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

One last verse to support the fact that God does not love every single person.
Many people are never chastised by God. If someone has been chastised they have been corrected, to change a behavior. Many have never been chastised, yet the bible says God chastises everyone He loves.

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

He loves his children.

To B Continued...

[Left Coast]

In your belief, the core of this doctrine is the sovereignty of God and His complete control over everything. He dictates every action that takes place. That God would not be in complete control if man had a choice in his destiny. There are three problems with this view..

You don’t quite understand my belief.
A Hyper-Calvinist would claim that man has no freewill, that God makes men sin. It is a common error.
I am not a Hyper-Calvinist.
You would want to claim most, if not all, that happens on earth is determined by mans freewill. For instance we vote to choose our rulers. The bible says differently.

Ro 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Ro 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

God is in control, but within that control we also make choices.
Because of Adams sin man has been separated from God. There is a veil between man and God. We are spiritually dead. And we die physically.
When the Lord returns our physical body is resurrected into a glorious body that can never die.

Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 
This is different than what Adam had.
Adam and Eve did not have eternal life, they would not die as long as they did not sin. It was conditional. We are given eternal life, no conditions.
When we become saved our spiritual body is resurrected. We are given a new soul. That is what it means to be born again. It is a change in our heart - soul.
It is done by God, we can contribute nothing. Just as we could contribute nothing to our first birth.
While we are spiritually dead we will sin, we have no choice it is our nature. God doesn’t cause us to sin, but we will.
Because of the sins of our first parents, A&E, we will sin. But we choose our sins. And the bible does indicate that God restrains sin, if he didn’t we would destroy ourselves.
Often it reaches a point where God gives us up to our sins.

Ro 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

When we become saved and God has resurrected our spiritual body then it becomes our desire to obey Him.
Because our physical body is still unsaved we will still sin. And so a war takes place, Paul talked of this.

Romans 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The bible gives every indication that this change is 100% Gods work.

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Because He has given us a new heart it becomes our desire to obey and follow His commandments.

Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The heart change must come first.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

One of Gods commandments is to believe, after He has changed our heart we keep the commandment to believe:

1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Believing is a result of the change.
Many men have an intellectual understanding of who Jesus is, and they think this is what it means to believe.
They know there is a hell, they know they deserve hell, they don’t want to go to hell, so they want to ‘join up’. But their hearts were never changed. They even feel they are working for Christ, you see all sorts of people claiming different truths but only one is true. As an example, Methodists have Lesbian Ministers, other churches teach only married and not divorced men can lead the congregation. Radically different, both the Lesbian and the married pastor will claim to be working for Christ, to be saving souls by casting the devil out of people.

Mt 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

People making a decision for Christ, only to find they were lost. He never knew them.
Quickly Matthew 25:41:

Mt 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Angels comes from the word ‘aggelos’. It does not necessarily mean heavenly angels. It can also refer to men.

Mt 11:10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger <aggelos> before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Lu 7:24  And when the messengers <aggelos> of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

It can mean a supernatural creature or it can mean a human.
This is a time to compare scripture with scripture.
Some like to claim no one goes to hell forever, but the bible says they do.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be  punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is judgment on man. To be separated forever from God. It is outer darkness because God will not be there and God is light.

Mt 22:13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you continue with Matthew 25 you will see he is talking about men on earth not heavenly angels.

Mt 25:40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mt 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mt 25:43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mt 25:44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mt 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mt 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

More???...Yep

[Left Coast]

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Yes the command goes out to seek him, but no one will seek him. It is our obligation but we will not be able to do it.

We did this verse earlier.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God often gives us commands to do and we have an obligation to do them but we won’t.
If you seek him with all your heart and all your soul you will find him, but we can’t devote 100% of ourselves to seeking God.

De 4:29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

We tend to seek him for the wrong reasons.

John 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

The commandment to seek him is very similar to the commandment to circumcise your heart.

De 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We are commanded to do that, but we can’t so God does it.

De 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

It is very similar to Gods commandment to believe.

1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We are not able to have saving belief so God does it.

Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Like the circumcision of the heart it is Gods work.
In fact it is BECAUSE of Gods circumcision that we are able to believe.

Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to repent. If some people are incapable of repenting, why did He make that command? For example, Acts 17:30 says, "He [God] commands all people everywhere to repent."

Perhaps one reason is so we can realize just how desperate our situation is.
When we realize we can’t repent 100% it puts us on our knees.
There is another thing that I have begun to consider, God is creating something special. This is the studio, where his creation unfolds. Our lives and our trials help to mold us into the vessel he needs.

Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

We are his workmanship. He is creating a vessel to hold the Holy Spirit.

1Co 3:16 ¶  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 

Why did Jesus have to suffer such a terrible spiritual damnation? If there is no choice in our spiritual destiny, then our spiritual "test" (and subsequent failures) could easily have been bypassed. There was no need for us to be lost and ultimately redeemed. There was no need for Jesus to suffer such a brutal, humiliating, and despicable punishment.

The wages of sin is death, the death God has in mind is the second death mentioned in Revelation.

Re 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Re 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
That first resurrection is the resurrection of the soul. Remember earlier? We are spiritually dead.
Wages implies payment, Jesus had to make the payment for sin. There was definitely a need for Jesus to suffer, or the payment would never have been made.

If selective salvation were true, you would expect an even distribution of Christians all over the world. In contrast to this, we find areas with very high concentrations of Christians and other areas with very low concentrations of Christians.

This is actually the argument for election.
If salvation is based on what we do, choosing Him, then God is not righteous.
A Mayan could legitimately say, “I would have chosen you but I never heard of you.”
A legitimate defense.
Would it be righteous for God to say, “true it was impossible for you to have chosen me but you can’t be saved unless you do therefore you go to hell. You had to do the impossible to become saved.”
To work around this unfairness in their gospel many freewill teachers will claim we are born with the necessary knowledge.
If that claim was true then indeed there would be an even distribution of Christians.
Hearing the word is necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God will get the word to everyone He intends to save, that is our job, to get the word out.

Mr 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

God then uses the word to save those He has chosen.

1 Thessalonians 2:13  For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The word works in us not by our will but by Gods will.

James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God selectively chooses who he is going to save, there is no reason why this would be an even distribution.


Still going...

[Left Coast]

The Bible has over a hundred verses that clearly say salvation is offered to "everyone," - "whosoever," and the whole "world." Yet, selective salvationists say salvation is only offered to the select few. To get around these verses, selective salvationists say these verses are only talking about the elect. In other words, verses that say "… salvation is offered to everyone" should actually be read as "… salvation is offered to everyone of the elect." To force this type of interpretation on hundreds of verses, selective salvationists have violated multiple basic rules of Biblical interpretation.

There are not hundreds of verses, there are a few.
The bible is not the English translations. The word of God is found in the original texts in the original languages.
In the original language the word whosoever is the Greek word <PAS>.
If you compare scripture with scripture you will find that the word PAS rarely refers to every single person - an inclusive term.
Usually it is referring to a limited group of people - an exclusive term.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <PAS> Jerusalem with him.

PAS Jerusalem? Every person in Jerusalem was troubled?

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all <PAS> manner of sickness and all <PAS> manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 8:16  When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all <PAS> that were sick:

Did he heal ‘all’ sickness and ‘all’ disease or just certain people.

Matthew 21:22  And all things <PAS>, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive

Everything you pray for?

Mark 1:37  And when they had found him, they said unto him, All <PAS> men seek for thee.
 
Every single person was seeking him?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <PAS> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <PAS> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Do you really think that John baptized over 2,000,000 people including the pharisees?

John 6:37  All <PAS> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Is that ‘all’ that God gives to Jesus will come to him OR is that ‘all’ that choose Jesus will come to him.
There is a contradiction between your understanding and this verse.
This is why it is so important to compare scripture with scripture.
No one can come to God unless He draws them first. Everyone He draws will come. If God could fail then He would be an impotent God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

We are taught of God, it is His work.

In addition to the above problem, there are many verses where this type of forced conclusion still would not work. For example, 1 Johnn 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world." Using your rules of interpretation, this verse should read: "He is the atoning sacrifice for the elect’s sins, and not only for the elect’s sins, but also for the sins of the elect." (I'm not trying to put words into your mouth my friend, I'm simply trying to point out the facts)

Again compare scripture with scripture.

Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Did he deceive the whole world or just the wicked?

Luke 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Was the whole world taxed?

John 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Did the whole world go after him?
The world refers to the unsaved condition of man.

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

He loved his own that were in the world.

John 13:1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Most important Jesus separates his people from the world.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

He was sent to the whole world and we have an obligation to accept him, but we will not accept him in truth unless we are one of those God has given to Jesus.
All we can do is get on our knees and pray that we might be one of those.

One more section......I think

[Left Coast]

selective salvationists say God has chosen certain people over other people. Yet, the Bible says God does not pick one person over another. For example, Acts 10:34 says, "God is no respecter of persons."

He doesn’t choose us because we are somehow better than someone else, it is not because He respects what kind of person we are.
Actually freewill is a gospel in which the superior people have salvation.
They are smarter or more humble than the unsaved.
Two brothers raised in the same environment, one becomes saved the other does not, WHY?
Obviously the one that becomes saved is taking the wise path the unsaved is foolish, what separates the two?
The bible says it is because God CHOSE one over the other.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I need to head out of town for a few days so I am going to have to wrap this up.
Much of your understanding of election is Hyper-Calvinist, that is common. I hope I may have given you some understanding as to where I differ from that idea.
The bible does not contradict there are a lot of contradictions with what you say and what the bible says.

John 6 says it very clearly.
No one can come to Jesus unless God draws them.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Everyone that God gives to Jesus will come to him.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus says clearly that He did not come for everyone. He hides the truth from some.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Much of the bible is parabolic. Israel represented the believers. They were elect because the believers are elect.
This is a picture of the salvation process.
The Sabbath is also a picture of the salvation process. That is why it was a shadow pointing to Christ. That is why NO work could be done on the Sabbath.
The Sabbath breaker felt he needed to do something, he couldn’t trust God entirely. So he picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath, God said stone him to death.

Numbers 15:32  And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Numbers 15:33  And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

Numbers 15:35  And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

The freewill gospel like the sabbath breaker doesn’t trust entirely on God, there is a feeling we must do something.
The great danger with the freewill gospel is people trusting in their work of believing, and never becoming truly broken before God.
My ex-wife is one of those people.
She has accepted Jesus as her savior but not as her Lord.
She rejects his laws and commandments claiming, “I have accepted Jesus as my savior, so these sins I do are covered.”
She is living with her boyfriend, after partying and sleeping with him for several years. But it is OK because she made a freewill decision.

You would not expect to find a loving God arbitrarily choosing to hate people (and condemning them to Hell before they were even created) simply because "He can."

The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

None of us have the right to complain.

Romans 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Predestination completely contradicts the issue of choice ( I know you don't believe in choice, yet you told me that you chose jesus, and He also chose you)...

It only contradicts SALVATION by choice.
I wanted the Lord very much in my life, I got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me. That does not guarantee salvation.
When God saved me He changed me so that I could accept Him in truth, and into my heart. God had to give me a heart that could believe first. He had to take out my heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh.

Love is an emotion that is earned. You can’t force someone to love you. In order for us to truly have the ability to love God, we need to have the ability to reject Him. You can’t love if you don’t have the ability to hate L.C..

We can only truly love him if our heart has been changed. That is not forcing, that is a rescue.
Circumcision - open heart surgery performed by the master surgeon.
I don’t think it is a coincidence that circumcision requires the shedding of blood, circumcision of the heart requires the shedding of Christ’s blood.  

I have to go drive about 500 miles before noon tomorrow, it’s 3:30 right now.
Gotta Go,
John

[Bronzesnake]

Hello John.

 It's pointless going back and forth like this. I will point out a couple of more "problems" (if you will) and call it a day my friend.

My quote...
Some selective salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him. Also, remember L.C. that Jesus offered him a way to be saved, but he could not part with his riches.

 Your response...

It doesn’t say he turned his back on Jesus and it doesn’t say he could not part with his riches. Read this a little more carefully.

 Perhaps you should read "a little more carefully" my friend...


 Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.  


Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!  

 Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!  


 Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.  

My quote...
You would not expect to find a loving God arbitrarily choosing to hate people (and condemning them to Hell before they were even created) simply because "He can."  


Your response...

The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

 My friend! - God hates for His pleasure?

My quote...
 Predestination completely contradicts the issue of choice ( I know you don't believe in choice, yet you told me that you chose Jesus, and He also chose you)...
 

Your response...

It only contradicts SALVATION by choice.
I wanted the Lord very much in my life, I got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me. That does not guarantee salvation.
When God saved me He changed me so that I could accept Him in truth, and into my heart. God had to give me a heart that could believe first. He had to take out my heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh.

 First of all - I'm not talking about choosing salvation. I freely chose Jesus - He gave me my salvation.

 When did God save you John? If God chose you from before the beginning, then you were always saved...right? So why did the change begin? When did the change begin? I'll bet it began after you "got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me." That's when you freely accepted Jesus into your life John - and that's when your life began to change. After that, your salvation was guaranteed.

 Why would you even have to ask Him for mercy, if you were already saved John? It doesn't make sense.

Look what you're saying John...

 "When God saved me He changed me so that I could accept Him in truth, and into my heart."

 On one hand, you say we can't accept God - that God has pre-selected us. Then, you say He changed you, so you could accept Him.

 "God had to give me a heart that could believe first."

 Exactly! That could believe That's very different than saying " a heart that would believe" In any case, why do we have to believe at all John? If God truly has pre-selected us - then we have no choice or need to believe in Him at all do we? That smacks of "works" it denotes "choice" John. You can't escape it my friend. The very word "believe" denotes choice. We either believe, or we do not believe.

Your quote...
 

He had to take out my heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak.

 Finally John, I ask you to consider these verses...

 Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.  

 Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.  

 Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  

 Here in Jhn 1:11- "His own" - Those who He "pre-selected" denied Him John. How does that line up with your belief? It doesn't fit does it? unless you make it fit.

Please consider this verse John...Jhn 1:12 How does this fit into your belief? It is directly opposed to it John. There is a very good reason for that my brother. The verse is clear John... "But as many as received him" This is also directly opposed to "pre-destination" John. It does not say "as many as He selected" John.

 to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

 John, this verse is not ambiguous in the least. "even to them that believe on His name" The word "even" in this verse makes a clear, unmistakable distinction from those who "received him" and "them that believe on His name" "to them gave he power to become the sons of God"

 In these verses God makes a point to show - in this instance at least - the ones who were pre-selected denied Him. How can that be John?
 God doesn't stop there John. God makes it unmistakably plain and absolutely clear that His salvation is offered to all those who receive Him, and even to those who merely believe on His name

 You can't get around these verses John. Not unless you have hardened yourself to believe only what you want to believe, and not what the Bible says.

 I am not trying to insult you here John - I love you as a Christian brother, and that is God's will. However, I do believe your doctrine is potentially harmful John. It leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation. Who is to truly know who is one of God's and who only believes he is John? What makes you so sure you are "pre-selected" Is is simply the fact that you "believe" you are John?

 What kind of "loving God" would pre-condemn His own creation? Just to hate for His own pleasure!!!???

 God's salvation is available to ALL of us John, not an elite, select few.

 I'm sorry my brother, but there is no easy, nice way of saying it - and it is of the utmost importance that it be stated...

 To all my brothers and sisters who are afraid that they might be one of the condemned because of this false doctrine - Please listen to God...

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  

 The blessed hope of His salvation is available to ALL OF US.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.  

Jhn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 Either Jesus is wrong or your doctrine is false John.

 This is not an attack on you personally John. However - I am sorry, but that is an exclusive teaching which leaves multitudes without any hope of salvation. It is destructive and false my brother.

 Bronzesnake.

[Shammu]

Left Coast, I notice you are using "Gods elect" many times. You do know that, Gods elect is Israel, The Jewish people.

[Shammu]

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.

 

[Shammu]

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.

 

You are not correct in your meaning of PAS Left Coast.

(1) PAS is _normally_ predicative; very rarely would one find hH PASA GRAFH, but if one did, that would mean "the whole of scripture."
The predicative use of _pas_ (without the article) according to the grammars is normally translated "every" or in this case "every inspired Scripture"


(2) PASA GRAFH might be translated "every scripture" or "all
scripture"--but either version would really mean simply every _single_scripture and thus "all" texts that may be termed "scripture."

This is very helpful, What do you think of Turner's notion of PAS meaning not every individual, like _hekastos_, but any you please." Turner seems to be limiting the idea to some group of texts that may be called scripture (the ones under consideration), rather than all possible scriptures viewed individually. Perhaps this doesn't make a hugh difference in this passage, but to me the former seems to treat the QEOPNEUSTOS as a tacit assumption, while the latter makes it a principle.

[ollie]

Left Coast, I notice you are using "Gods elect" many times. You do know that, Gods elect is Israel, The Jewish people.

All who looked forward to Christ under the first covenant and all those in Christ under the second. This includes present day Israel. They are not the elect without faith in Christ as the son of God. There will be a remnant grafted back in, but they must believe.

Ollie

[musicllover]

HI,
    I'm going to drop in here and give my 2 cents worth. Back to the original quietion....why do we believe in God. I guess I need to ask some questions first.

Why do you ask?
Are you concerned about dieing?
Do you believe the sun will come up in the morning?
Do you believe your car is going to start when you turn the key?
Do you believe you bus is going to arrive on time, there is so many questions that can be asked of the way you have faith in something other than God.
I am curious so how do you know? Obviously the frist 2 questions are because you think we are all fools, and no you aren't concerned about dieing. I am wondering how do people who have no idea, or who could care less get up in the moring. What is the meaning of your life?

I don't have a devinely inspired answer to share with you, I just know that with out God I am doomed, if I die and there is no God then my faith gains me nothing I will rot in the ground none the worse off, but if I die and there is a God I have an eternal home in his Kingdom or in hell. Does that sound like I'm sitting in the middle of the road? I know it does, but there is something inside of me that has that HOPE, once you get that hope then a measure of faith begins to filter in, kinda like when you hope your car starts in cold weather, and when it does several times in a row you learn to relax and trust that it will do it time and time again. My Faith has been tested, and no its not been easy, I question, I back slide, I cry and have my fits, but I know that I am better off for believing in God than not. What would this world be for other wise? A fluke, an accident of nature? Everything that makes us so unique in the animal world just accidental fell together and boom.....you have a man......no there is a divine creator.  
    My life has not be all grand and glories, I don't come from money, or a loving family, as a matter of fact I don't even come from a Christian home. As a child I seen and lived with about ever sin imaginable thru my parents or step parents. I could have gotten full of pride, hate, revenenge and I did for a while, but that is not the way to raise children so I begin to need something more than a "this world sucks" addittude because I wanted better for my children, I didn't want the divorce step parents parade and all that sometimes comes along with that life. So I made a choice to believe becuase it was better than believing in nothing, I need meaning in my life a purpose, I wasn't just another idiot on the planet taken up space. And then faith followed.
    Blessing to you, I pray you find what your looking for. Or I've said something that makes sense, OH and by the way the world does suck and I am very greatful for it cause if it didn't we would all fall off.......
Musicllover

[Left Coast]

I expect the members of the forum to make foolish remarks like, “you’re lost...or you are unsaved” people say foolish things.
However I hold those responsible for administrating the forum to a higher standard.
When the moderator tells someone who has openly said they have accepted Jesus into their heart, that they are lost it goes against my grain.
Quote from: blackeyedpeas on July 10, 2004, 04:50:23 AM
Heidi,

Heidi, you are lost. Many here will help you and pray for you.

Love,
Tom
 
 
Only God knows the heart.

Hello Left Coast,

There was really nothing to judge when Heidi posted all over the forum that Jesus Christ is not God. So, I would have no clue who she believes in. Those in Islam also believe in Jesus, but he was just a man or a prophet according to them. Since Jesus is the only WAY, they couldn't possibly be saved. That's simply a statement, on their part, that they are lost.

I have no problem at all in calling you brother, even though we disagree with a lot of things. We can each pick and choose what we wish to debate and simply agree to disagree.

I would second the thoughts of Bronzesnake. I hope that you reconsider and stay.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Heidi said clearly that Jesus Christ was her Lord and Savior, a considerable difference between her and those of Islam.
Heidi believed Jesus Christ was the SON of God, a considerable difference between her and those of Islam.
Heidi did not understand that Jesus was also God, a difficult thing to understand for some.
Being your own son, sounds like a bad Jeff Foxworthy joke.
We can not know who is and who is not saved, only God can know the heart.
We can not even know our own hearts, the bible says our hearts deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Left Coast]

WOOOPS!!!!!!!!

Bronzesnake,

I am very sorry in my rush to get out of town I said something very wrong.

Your response...

The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

 My friend! - God hates for His pleasure?

I certainly didn’t word that right! As it shows in the verses I presented He saves who He chooses because it serves His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

He has no pleasure in the wicked, therefore He has no pleasure in hating men. And the bible says clearly that He hates the wicked.

Psalms 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Yes, God does hate iniquity.
The bible could have said ‘thou hatest all iniquity’, and ‘the LORD will abhor deceit’.
That is not what Psalm 5 says, it says He hates sinners.
A far cry from he loves the sinner but he hates the sin.

This is where your freewill decision comes in.

You can accept what the bible says as the word of God, or you can reject these verses.
The verses are clear.
He hates the wicked.
God HATED Esau.

Malachi 1:2  I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How long are you going to trust in the wisdom of men instead of the word of God?

Perhaps you should read "a little more carefully" my friend...


 Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.  


Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!  

 Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!  


 Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.  

None of these verses say that the rich cannot be saved.
None of these verses say the young ruler was not saved.
None of these verses say the rich young ruler turned his back on salvation.
People don’t turn away from Christ Grieving.
The turn away because of pride, pride won’t allow them to grieve.
I stand by my explanation. It is difficult to give up what we love, but not impossible.
Contrary to what you may think there will be many wealthy people that turn to the Lord.
Solomon being a rich young ruler, that the Lord loved.

2 Samuel 12:24  And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

When did God save you John? If God chose you from before the beginning, then you were always saved...right? So why did the change begin? When did the change begin? I'll bet it began after you "got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me." That's when you freely accepted Jesus into your life John - and that's when your life began to change. After that, your salvation was guaranteed.

 Why would you even have to ask Him for mercy, if you were already saved John? It doesn't make sense.

I don’t know when I became saved. Some people may know immediately, I did not. I do know it did not happen the first time I went to my knees, or the second or the third.
I had to spend a lot of time on my knees.
There was a time when I thought we are saved when God begins to draw us, because God cannot fail, salvation was guaranteed. That is not what I believe today.
It is true that John Bunyan taught we are saved from the very beginning. He was a great Christian, that is not something I agree with him on.
Guaranteeing salvation and being saved are different. A doctor can guarantee to save your leg before he operates but the leg is saved after the operation is finished.
We are saved when we are Born Again.
It is an excellent term. What can any person contribute to their birth?
Can you get your parents together?
Can you decide the moment of your birth?
When we are born again we become an entirely different kind of a creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That is the point of salvation, it is the result of God changing our heart. It is a rescue type of salvation.

Ezekiel 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


2 Long
so
2 Parts

[Left Coast]

You can't escape it my friend. The very word "believe" denotes choice. We either believe, or we do not believe.

No it denotes a change. It was not a choice the heart is changed the change brings belief.
There are different kinds of belief. Intellectually all sorts of people believe in God. So we have various religious practices all over the world, even the most primitive tribes understand there is a God.
Even the devils believed.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Are they saved?

Here in Jhn 1:11- "His own" - Those who He "pre-selected" denied Him John. How does that line up with your belief? It doesn't fit does it? unless you make it fit.

His own were the Jews.

Please consider this verse John...Jhn 1:12 How does this fit into your belief? It is directly opposed to it John. There is a very good reason for that my brother. The verse is clear John... "But as many as received him" This is also directly opposed to "pre-destination" John. It does not say "as many as He selected" John.

The definition of receive is found in John 3:27.

John 3:27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Those that received Him were given that ability from heaven.
This is very similar to:

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It sounds like our work. But the bible explains it is Gods work.

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

It is difficult to search out the bible for truth.
One thing I enjoy about you is you do look to the bible, now you have to learn to look a little deeper. The bible is not always as clear as it seems.
The hardest thing to do is to resist the urge to jump to conclusions.

to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

 John, this verse is not ambiguous in the least. "even to them that believe on His name" The word "even" in this verse makes a clear, unmistakable distinction from those who "received him" and "them that believe on His name" "to them gave he power to become the sons of God"

It is not a good idea to put so much faith on a word that is not in the scripture.

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The reason you put the word ‘even’ in brackets is because it was not a word found in the original text.
One of the reasons I like the KJV is because the KJV italicizes those words that the translators added to the translation. I often read verses by skipping over the italicized words. So this would read:

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name:

He gave them the power to become the sons of God.

However, I do believe your doctrine is potentially harmful John. It leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation.

Quite the opposite, YOUR DOCTRINE leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation. With mine there is ALWAYS hope.
With yours there is no hope for infants or the mentally ill. How can a baby make a freewill decision?
The bible makes it clear we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born. We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
You would have to tell Mrs. Doe:
I am sorry Mrs. Doe, your son was drunk, and passing a joint to someone when his car went off the road. He has sustained a permanent brain injury. He will never know who you are or who he is, he certainly can’t know who Jesus is. Your son can make no choices, so he is going to burn in hell.
Where is the hope in your doctrine?
My doctrine gives hope to all, because the brain is not involved. It is all Gods work. You add mans work.
You can accept the word of God or reject the word of God, your decision.
I believe I have addressed all of your verses, I have explained them WITH scripture.
Whosoever is from the Greek word ‘pas’. It is also found:

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the definition of whosoever. Translate it this way:

Whosoever that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

You have to deal with these verses.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
No one will come to Jesus unless God first draws them, whosoever He gives to Jesus WILL come to him.
Why do you reject the scripture?

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

He chooses us and causes us to approach Him. We don’t choose him.
If you really want faith, trust entirely on God.
You trust in your work of believing. Like the sabbath breaker, you can’t really trust in God, WHY?
As for me I will trust in the Lord. Praise be to God that I can.

John.