the Passion

[ollie]

You do realize no one would be looking into it all if Mel Gibson was Baptist.  

If Mel were a Baptist at least half the movie would have centered on the Resurrection.
 

Why does the church at Rome authorize the crucifiction of Christ over and over and dwell on it predominantly?

They very seldom show Him in His present glory.

We are to remember His death but also His resurrection. And not as to reenact it.

[Psalm 119]

Ollie,

Excellent point!

Psalm 119

[Symphony]

Tibby, if you do become a priest, if nothing else, please promise me ONE THING.

You will at least become a kind that allows you to get married.

PuhLEEZE get married, Tibby.

Okay, pal--for the children?  

   


(Hmmm, "Friar Tibby".   Well, I guess so.   )

[Reba]

My  grandneice was about 6, she is catholic, catholic schools, the whole thing. One day after mass she started crying... her mom asked what was wrong. According to my sister the childs words were  "I want my Jesus off that cross!

I agree Ollie

[ebia]

Why does the church at Rome authorize the crucifiction of Christ over and over and dwell on it predominantly?

They don't do it "over and over", they make the one sacrifice current now.  The difference is subtle but huge.

They very seldom show Him in His present glory.

Physical depictions of glory are difficult, and usually patheticely inadequate.

We are to remember His death but also His resurrection. And not as to reenact it.

Again, they are not reenacting it, but making it current now, which is what the greek means - remembering is a very poor translation.

[ebia]

My  grandneice was about 6, she is catholic, catholic schools, the whole thing. One day after mass she started crying... her mom asked what was wrong. According to my sister the childs words were  "I want my Jesus off that cross!

I agree Ollie

Says it all really - you're understanding is that of a six year old (being generous).

[Reba]

Thank you  those are  the kindest words.

Luke 18:17

17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
KJV

[Symphony]

Says it all really - you're understanding is that of a six year old (being generous).


I guess we can alwasy count on ebia for a little bitta sympathy...


   

[Pilgrim]

Below is what some of the greatest and most esteemed catholic teachers teach about Mary. It is no coincidence that Mel’s movie portrayed Mary and Jesus in the manner he did. Mel is SELLING a FALSE JESUS and MARY who are blasphemous counterfeits. Read the quotes of the greatest teachers of the RCC below and it should be enough to see the real danger of Mel’s movie which promotes the false Mary of the RCC. They claim there is no salvation apart from Mary!

http://www.catholictradition.org/faith4.htm

Those Devoted to Mary
Will Be Saved

O chosen Queen of Heaven! You alone are the refuge of guilty mortals to whom so many a wounded and miserable heart is raised . . . You, O elect Queen, are the gate of all grace, the door of compassion that has never been shut!

-----Bl. Henry Suso

Mary is the key to the gates of Heaven.

-----St. Ephrem

God has entrusted the keys and treasures of Heaven to Mary.

-----St. Thomas Aquinas

No one can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate.

-----St. Bonaventure

Mary is called "the Gate of Heaven" because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.

-----St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary.

-----St. Bernard

Who is this Gate if not Mary? Mary is the Gate through which Christ entered this world!

-----St. Ambrose

All the Saints have a great devotion to Our Lady: no grace comes from Heaven without passing through her hands. We cannot go into a house without speaking to the doorkeeper. Well, the Holy Virgin is the doorkeeper of Heaven.

-----St. John Mary Vianney

She opens the abyss of God's mercy to whomsoever she wills, when she wills, and as she wills, so that there is no sinner however great who is lost if Mary protects him . . . All men: past, present, and to come, should look upon Mary as the means and the negotiator of the salvation of all ages.

-----St. Bernard

Mary is the dispentrix of all the graces God bestows on man.

-----St. Bernardine of Siena

God has decided that we should receive everything from the Father, from the Son, and from the Holy Spirit, and from the Immaculata. This is the only path that each and every grace can follow.

-----St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

Every grace granted to man in this life has three successive steps: from God it comes to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.

-----St. Bernardine of Siena

Every grace and blessing possessed by the Church, all the treasures of light, holiness, and glory that abide in her, on earth as well as in Heaven, all are due to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary . . . Let us acknowledge, then, that her heart is the origin of everything noble, rich, and precious in all the holy souls who form the universal Church in Heaven and on earth. It is the source of salvation . . .

For this reason, all creatures are obligated to render her respect and homage as to their Queen and Sovereign to whom they belong and upon whom they depend, and will depend, for all eternity.

-----St. John Eudes

Mary became for herself and for all men the cause and foundation of salvation.

-----St.  Francis de Sales

Who can worthily thank thee and adequately praise thee, O Blessed Virgin, who by thy Fiat hast saved a lost world!

-----St. Augustine

All those who, to the end of time, shall receive the blessing of our Heavenly Father . . . shall receive their graces only as a result of their perfect obedience to Mary.

-----St. Louis Marie de Montfort

Pure and Immaculate Virgin, save me and deliver me from eternal damnation.

-----St. John Damascene

Immaculate Virgin, you have to save me!

-----St. Philip Neri

O Mother of the salvation of everyone!

-----St. Agnes

If our life were not under the protection of Mary, we might tremble for our perseverance and salvation . . . In her hands Jesus has placed His almighty power in the order of salvation. He has confided to her all the means of salvation. All the graces of salvation, both natural and spiritual, will be given to us by Mary. She is rich with the riches of God Himself.

-----St. Peter Julian Eymard

Unless the prayers of Mary interposed, there could be no hope of mercy.

-----St. Bridget of Sweden

The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary.

-----Ven. Pope Pius IX

O my Lady, next to thy Son Jesus Christ, thou hast always been the chief instrument of our salvation.

-----St. Dominic

For, since it is the will of Divine Providence that we should have the God-Man through Mary, there is no other way for us to receive Christ except from her hands.

-----Pope St. Pius X

Our sanctity depends on the degree of our nearness to Mary. She is the nearest to God, and if we are the nearest to her then we therefore will be nearest, through her, to God Himself.

-----St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

Where Mary is, there is the Son!

-----St. Paul of the Cross

He who sees Jesus also sees the Mother of Jesus.
-----St. Robert Bellarmine

The spirit of Mary is the same as that of her Divine Son; whoever belongs to her cannot therefore be far from Him.

-----St. Joseph Cafasso

The way of salvation is open to no one except through Mary.

-----St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation!

-----Ven. Pope Pius IX

We pray thee, O Lady, Star of the Sea, shine upon us in our distress on the sea of life, and lead us to safe harbor and to the ineffable joys of eternity.

-----St. Anthony of Padua

Hail, O certain salvation of Christians! Hail, fortress of the faithful and salvation of the world!

-----St. Ephrem

O Ark of Glory! O Chamber of Salvation!

-----St. Vincent Ferrer

It is enough, O Lady, that you will it, and our salvation is secure.

-----St. Anselm

Not only do they offend thee, O Lady, who outrage thee, but thou art also offended by those who neglect to ask thy favors . . . He who neglects the service of the Blessed Virgin will die in his sins . . . He who does not invoke thee, O Lady, will never get to Heaven . . . Not only will those from whom Mary turns her countenance, not be saved, but there will be no hope of their salvation . . . No one can be saved without the protection of Mary.

-----St. Bonaventure

A man is no true Christian if he has no devotion to the Mother of Jesus Christ.

-----St. John Eudes

The salvation of those who are not protected by Mary is impossible.

-----St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

It is impossible for persons who are not loved by the Mother of Christ to have any part with Him. Conversely, it is impossible for anyone to perish upon whom she looks with favor.

-----St. John Eudes

He is lost who does not have recourse to Mary . . . If, then, we would be saved, let us recommend ourselves to her.

-----St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

If people fail to say the Hail Mary, it is a sign that they will probably -----and indeed, shortly-----be condemned to eternal punishment.

-----Bl. Alan de la Roche

The salvation of each individual is attached to the Hail Mary.

-----St. John Capistrano

The heretics, all of whom are children of the Devil and clearly bear the sign of God's reprobation, have a horror of the Hail Mary . . . I do not know, nor do I clearly see, how it can be that a devotion which seems so small can be the infallible sign of eternal salvation, and how its absence can be the sign of God's eternal displeasure; nevertheless, nothing could possibly be more true . . . My Hail Mary . . . is the infallible touchstone by which I can tell those who are led by the Spirit of God from those who are deceived by the Devil. . . Listen to what Our Lady has revealed: "Know, my son, make all others know, that it is a probable and proximate of eternal damnation to have an aversion, a luke-warm-----or a negligence in saying the Angelic Salutation which repaired the whole world." . . . The Hail Mary is a Heavenly dew for watering the earth, which is the soul, to make it forth its fruit in season. A soul which is not watered by that prayer bears no fruit, and brings forth only thorns-----and is ready to be cursed.

-----St. Louis Marie de Montfort

We have to pray to the Madonna to drive away the Devil and all heresies, especially the Masons.

-----St. Maximilian Kolbe

Since the work of salvation began with the Angelic Salutation, the salvation of each one of us in particular is attached to this prayer.

-----St. Dominic

Nothing can be more beneficial than the custom of those who salute Our Divine Lady.

-----St. Thomas More

Therefore, miserable will he be, says Our Queen, and miserable unto all eternity, who in this life, having it in his power to invoke me, is miserable enough not to invoke me and thus is damned.
-
----St. Bridget of Sweden

O Mary, Virgin Most Powerful, you alone have destroyed every heresy in the whole world!

-----St. John Bosco

We may seek graces, but shall never find them without the intercession of Mary.

-----St. Cajetan

[Psalm 119]

Pilgrim.

Thank you for posting the quotes, on what Catholic really believe. Let those who have ears to hear let him hear.


Psalm 119


Those who have an interest may want to read this article in Christianity Today. Please read the first paragraph very closely. ( And Christianity Today actually promoted the movie)

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/commentaries/passion-melmarymothers.html

[Corpus]

Pilgrim,

I too thank you for posting all those quotes.

[creationist]

[Pilgrim]

Corpus,

Do you believe like the greatest teachers of the RCC that there is no salvation outside of Mary?

Saint Pilgrim

[Symphony]

Thank you, Psalm, for the CT ref.  The article there seems to only sympathize with the very understandable agony between witnessing mother and suffering offspring, while admitting that Gibson may be taking it further than that, by the typical Catholic veneration of the mother.

Simeon there in Luke 2 prophecies that a sword will pierce through her heart also.  And we have the beautiful Magnificat.  And the reality that yes, above all other women and mothers in the history of all time, both future and past, there is one woman who is visited from upon High by a wonderful and Holy conception, and in the form of a baby Jesus, to take away our sins.

I'm not sure I would fault anyone for revealing or focusing on the perhaps uniqueness of Mary, as Gibson must certainly do.  True, there's no salvation there.  She's just a mother.  

But it's wonderful that she was chosen.  

And certainly there is some merit to a portrayal of Jesus' final hours, tho I've never been attracted to Passion plays(there's one that plays near here and has for many years.  'Never seen it.), even tho they may be Catholic?

Just because a messenger misses the point of the message he is delivering, doesn't mean his listeners have to miss the point too?

[Pilgrim]

Here is page two of quotes from the RCC cults greatest and most esteemed teachers. They teach that there is no salvation apart from their counterfeit Mary.

Those Who Do Not Honor
Mary Will Be Not Be Saved

http://www.catholictradition.org/faith5.htm

He is cursed of God who angers His Mother.

------Ecclesiasticus 3: 18

    For if we are bidden to honor carnal fathers and mothers, how much more the spiritual? . . . If this virtue of charity has been overlooked, a man will lose any fruit of salvation in any good he may do.

------Pope St. Gregory VII

  The honor of Mary is so intimately connected with the honor and glory of Jesus that to deny the one is at the same time a denial of the other.

------Ven. William Joseph Chaminade

Let not that man presume to look for mercy from God who offends His Holy Mother!

------St. Louis Marie de Montfort

Not only do they offend thee, O Lady, who outrage thee, but thou art also offended by those who neglect to ask thy favors . . . He who neglects the service of the Blessed Virgin will die in his sins . . . He who does not invoke thee, O Lady, will never get to Heaven . . . Not only will those from whom Mary turns her countenance not be saved, but there will be no hope of their salvation . . . No one can be saved without the protection of Mary.

------St. Bonaventure

It is impossible to save one's soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.

------St. Anselm

 Woe to those who despise devotion to Mary! . . . The soul cannot live without having recourse to Mary and recommending itself to her. He falls and is lost who does not have recourse to Mary.

------St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

 To desire grace without recourse to the Virgin Mother is to desire to fly without wings.

------Pope Pius XII

We may seek graces, but shall never find them without the intercession of Mary.

------St. Cajetan

There is no one, O Most Holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God; no one who can be delivered from dangers but through thee, O Virgin Mother; no one who obtains mercy but through thee, O Filled-With-All- Grace!

------St. Germanus of Constantinople

The conflict with Hell cannot be maintained by men, even the most clever. The Immaculata alone has from God the promise of victory over Satan.

------St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

I have great doubts about the salvation of those who do not have special devotion to Mary.

------St. Francis Borgia

It seems unbelievable that a man should perish in whose favor Christ said to His Mother: "Behold thy son"------provided that he has not turned a deaf ear to the words which Christ addressed to him: "Behold thy Mother."

------St. Robert Bellarmine

If you would enter into Life, keep the commandments . . .  Honor thy father and thy mother.

------St. Matthew 19: 17, 19

Behold thy Mother!

------St. John 19: 27

Jesus honored her before all ages, and will honor her for all ages. No one comes to Him, nor even near Him, no one is saved or sanctified, if he too will not honor her. This is the lot of Angels and of men.

------St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

A man is no true Christian if he has no devotion to the Mother of Jesus Christ.

------St. John Eudes

There is a generation . . . that does not bless their Mother, a generation pure in their own eyes and yet not washed from their filthiness.

------Proverbs 30: 11-12

And the Lord God said to the serpent . . . I shall put enmities between thee and the Woman, and between thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

------Genesis 3: 14-15

All the true children of God, the predestinate, have God for their Father and Mary for their Mother. He who has not Mary for his Mother has not God for his Father. This is the reason that reprobates such as heretics, schismatics, and others, who hate Our Blessed Lady or who regard her with contempt and indifference, do not have God for their Father, however much they boast of it, simply because they do not have Mary for their Mother . . . The most infallible and indisputable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the predestinate, is that the heretic and reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for Our Lady . . . The reprobate care next-to-nothing for devotion to Our Blessed Lady, the Mother of the predestinate . . . They do not consider devotion to her necessary for salvation. The means of salvation and sanctification are known by everyone: they are laid down in the Gospel, explained by the masters of the spiritual life, practiced by the Saints, and necessary to all who wish to be saved and to attain perfection. To practice all those means of salvation and sanctification, the grace of God is absolutely necessary . . . Whoever, therefore, wishes to be a member of Jesus Christ, full of grace and truth, must be formed in Mary by means of the grace of Jesus which she possesses in its fullness in order to communicate it fully to her children, the true members of Jesus Christ . . . These great souls, full of grace and zeal, shall be chosen to match themselves against the enemies of God . . . With the one hand, they shall fight, overthrow, and crush the heretics with their heresies, the schismatics with their schisms, the idolaters with their idolatries, and the sinners with their impieties.

 With the other hands, they shall build the temple of the true Solomon and the mystical City of God: that is to say, the Most Holy Virgin.

------St. Louis Marie de Montfort

 If there should come among you anyone who would not honor Our Blessed Mother and who would cause any slackening in our union with her, or who would teach anything different: let him be condemned.

------St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

 Take away Mary, the Star of the Sea, or take away the Heart of Mary, the true Sun of the Christian world, and what would be left?

------St. John Eudes

Without the Blessed Virgin, a person travels along the road to damnation.

------St. Ildephonsus

The Immaculata must be the Queen of all people. Whoever does not submit to her rule will perish.

------St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

Your heart will either sing the Divine canticles of Our Lady . . . or it will echo the cursed and unhappy songs of the worldlings here . . . in dishonor to God its Maker, and vibrate eternally with the blasphemies and horrid dirges of the damned in Hell.

------St. John Eudes

Therefore, miserable will he be, says Our Queen, and miserable unto all eternity, who in this life, having it in his power to invoke me, is miserable enough not to invoke me and thus is damned.

------St. Bridget of Sweden

No one will ever be the servant of the Son without serving the Mother.

------St. Ildephonsus

All men who are not thy servants, O Mary, will perish.

------St. Albert the Great

Those who do not serve Mary will not be saved, for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are deprived also of that of her Son and of the whole Court of Heaven.

------St. John Damascene

The kingdom shall be closed to him who has deserted her who is destined to be its Queen.

------St. Cyprian

It is not possible for any sinner to be saved without the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

------St. John Chrysostom
 

It is impossible for persons who are not loved by the Mother of Christ to have any part with Him. Conversely, it is impossible for anyone to perish upon whom she looks with favor.

------St. John Eudes

He is lost who does not have recourse to Mary . . . If, then, we would be saved, let us recommend ourselves to her.

------St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori