Once Saved Always Saved???

[Allinall]

Hi all!

I actually love these discussions!  It always reminds me just how big God is.  He is bigger than me, bigger than my action or inaction.  I think we tend to forget the point of salvation: to bring glory to God.  God is the bigger picture we're talking about.  "The heavens declare the glory of God."  The universe is sooooooooooooo vast, and all for the purpose of putting the short, fat bald guy living on a rock, orbiting 1 of an unknown mass of stars into the right perspective in his own mind: it's not about what I do, have done, or will do. It's not about what I strive for, live for or fail to accomplish in life.  It's about Him and all that He is and has done for His glory in my life.  The joy is being able to know Him and see His glory.  Just a thought.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen!

And hi Allinall. It's great to see you here.

[nChrist]

Hello Allinall,

ANOTHER AMEN BROTHER KEVEN!

YES, it's great to hear from you.

I think you hit the nail on the head with something that causes people all kinds of problems. The Work of SALVATION is GOD'S and HE gets ALL THE GLORY - none for men at all - zero! GOD doesn't need help from men to keep HIS Promises perfectly, and men have nothing to add to the PERFECT and COMPLETED WORK OF JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS! Men aren't worthy for Salvation, but JESUS CHRIST has everything man DOESN'T HAVE. When we are IN CHRIST, we are worthy only because we are seen through CHRIST. The Righteousness belongs to CHRIST, and HE bought our FREEDOM with HIS Blood.

ALL GLORY TO GOD!

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 AMP  THEREFORE, SINCE we do hold and engage in this ministry by the mercy of God [granting us favor, benefits, opportunities, and especially salvation], we do not get discouraged (spiritless and despondent with fear) or become faint with weariness and exhaustion.  2  We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhandedness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery and cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man's conscience.  3  But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.  4  For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.  5  For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus' sake.  6  For God Who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [Gen. 1:3.]  7  However, we possess this precious treasure [the divine Light of the Gospel] in [frail, human] vessels of earth, that the grandeur and exceeding greatness of the power may be shown to be from God and not from ourselves.  8  We are hedged in (pressed) on every side [troubled and oppressed in every way], but not cramped or crushed; we suffer embarrassments and are perplexed and unable to find a way out, but not driven to despair;  9  We are pursued (persecuted and hard driven), but not deserted [to stand alone]; we are struck down to the ground, but never struck out and destroyed;  10  Always carrying about in the body the liability and exposure to the same putting to death that the Lord Jesus suffered, so that the [resurrection] life of Jesus also may be shown forth by and in our bodies.  11  For we who live are constantly [experiencing] being handed over to death for Jesus' sake, that the [resurrection] life of Jesus also may be evidenced through our flesh which is liable to death.  12  Thus death is actively at work in us, but [it is in order that our] life [may be actively at work] in you.  13  Yet we have the same spirit of faith as he had who wrote, I have believed, and therefore have I spoken. We too believe, and therefore we speak, [Ps. 116:10.]  14  Assured that He Who raised up the Lord Jesus will raise us up also with Jesus and bring us [along] with you into His presence.  15  For all [these] things are [taking place] for your sake, so that the more grace (divine favor and spiritual blessing) extends to more and more people and multiplies through the many, the more thanksgiving may increase [and redound] to the glory of God.  16  Therefore we do not become discouraged (utterly spiritless, exhausted, and wearied out through fear). Though our outer man is [progressively] decaying and wasting away, yet our inner self is being [progressively] renewed day after day.  17  For our light, momentary affliction (this slight distress of the passing hour) is ever more and more abundantly preparing and producing and achieving for us an everlasting weight of glory [beyond all measure, excessively surpassing all comparisons and all calculations, a vast and transcendent glory and blessedness never to cease!],  18  Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting.

[kintups70]

Hey everyone,

I am new to this forum and this is my first post. The security of a believer is an issue that I have been dealing with the last couple of years. For a long while, I had been a fairly strong Calvinist. Then, after a friend began to challenge me on my presuppositions, I began to read Scripture and just let it speak for itself without little or no 'tweaking'.

My conclusion was after an honest reading, that the Scripture seems to teach that both a person is secure, and that a person can lose their salvation, to the contrary of human logic. But, we must remember that eternal truths are spirit and go beyond mere human logic. Believe you me, it was not an easy pill for me to swallow! I struggled like a 'fish out of water' with this whole concept. I began to really study various interpretations of the controversial texts. I began to see that God does keep us secure as long as we are willing to maintain a repentant, obedient faith in His Son.

After much long deliberation, my fairly strong conclusion is that as long as we continue in repentant, obedient faith in Christ we will be kept by His grace. Of course, none of us can do any thing except by the Power and Presence of the Holy Spirit of God working His will through us.

I recognized that it is not me working to keep myself saved, but His Spirit working His works through me as I am willfully allowing Him to do so. Of course, I could supply a couple of texts that seemingly contradict this statement, but, then I have to deal with the dozens that do not.

Now, having said this, I don't believe a person loses their salvation easily. God will chastise and warn the impenitent over a period of time. If the person closes their ears to God's warnings then the Spirit of God will depart from the individual much like Sampson and Saul. Of course, prior to His departure, the individual had grieved Him and quenched the Fire of His Presence within.

Does this mean that the situation is hopeless without the possibility of salvation still? Of course not. As long as there is breath in their lungs there is hope. If this individual still has a sense of conscience that has not been seared they can respond to this by asking God for more humility, repentance, faith, and the return of His Spirit. Of course, recognizing that those who have the Spirit of God  are  children of God.

Having said this, the enemy of our souls will seek to prevent this from happening (to "steal, kill, and destroy.") The longer we rebel against God the harder it is to respond in humble repentant faith before Him through His Son.

I believe the words of Jesus apply to this whole issue that the one "who endures to the end willl be saved.  Again, it is imperative to realize that the works of God are only wrought by the Power of the Spirit (Gal. 5: 15-20, Eph. 6: 10, etc.) It is equally important to realize that Paul's repeated warnings of "not inherit ('ing'-mine) the Kindom of God" (Eph. 5:3-9, Gal. 5: 19-21, I Cor. 6: 9-11,) were written to believers as a warning. John the beloved apostle in Revelation 21: 7-8, gives further clarity that those who practice such things (including idolatry--which could be anything in place of Jesus' Lordship over our lives!) will be "cast into the Lake of fiery sulfur'.

Jesus further stated that if anyone wants to be His follower he should "shoulder his cross daily and follow him (Luke 9:23-27) of course, within the context of forfeiting our own soul if we do not. This begs the question, is it necessary to be a disciple of Christ in order to receive salvation? I believe the answer is an absolute yes. One cannot separate discipleship from evangelism. The often-used phrase "cheap grace' seems to apply to those whose 'gospel' does not include selfless humility producing a repentant, obedient faith. Often ignored by Armenians is the fact that we can do nothing apart from the Presence and ongoing Power of the Holy Spirit.

I believe when one considers this very humbling truth it will bring new meaning to the text often carelessly quoted in I John 1:9, that "If we confess our sins (my emphasis added) He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Notice the promise is conditional... IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS. This of course was written to believers. One could rightly conclude that if we don't confess our sins, we will not be forgiven. This implies the necessity of an ongoing, humble, repentant faith before a righteous God. By the way, this seems to flatly contradict the whole idea that believers are forgiven for all their sins past, present, and future. It's a daily confession. Proverbs 28:13 adds further clarity to the often quoted I John 1:9 when it says, that "whosever confesses and forsakes" their sins will find mercy. The forsaking part is often overlooked. Jesus said clearly, "Unless we repent (we) will all likewise perish." Sobering words! (Part 1)

[kintups70]

(Part 2)

He also said that "Many will say to me on that day 'Lord, Lord' "...but He will reply plainly, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). In this same chapter he clearly states that few will be saved and that many will perish (Matt. 7:13-14). Again, it seems to clearly conflict with the notion that all you have to do is pray this little prayer and really mean it. Truly, unless we are reborn of the Spirit we can not enter the Kingdom. This new life requires ongoing nourishment and care. Otherwise, just as a physical body will perish without proper nutrition and care, so will our spirit man. God help us all!

I would commend to anyone who disagrees with me to study and meditate upon two passages that the Triune Lord (Yahweh), states to Ezekiel. Please read Ezekiel 18: 24, 26, Ezekiel 3: 20-21, and Ezekiel 33: 12-20. Has God changed His mind on this just because we are under the renewed covenant, or just because Christ "fulfilled the law and prophets", or because we are not subject to the ceremonial and national laws of ancient Israel? I don't see any Biblical warrant for dismissing this. Truly, God has not changed His mind as I read Scripture. The same God of the old covenant is the God of the new.

Jesus spoke to John the re velator and said to the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3: 10-11, "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere he would protect them. Later, he commands them to "Hold onto what you have so that no one will take away your crown." The crown is what? (See Revelation 2:10 - "the crown of life" (eternal life). Surely if we don't persevere in repentance, faith in God through Christ, andl obedience in the Power of His Spirit, He declares clearly in Rev. 4: 16 that he will "vomit" or "spit" us out of His mouth! Such sobering words to believers! What does one do with vomit? It is flushed into a sewer. The truth is this analogy is the equivalent of hell. Though the text does not clearly say it in this context.

He also states in Revelation 3: 5 that to those believers in the church of Sardis who walk worthy and our victorious, that He will not erase their names from the book of life, but that he will confess them before the Father and His angels. Sounds like their eternal life is in jeopardy if they don't continue to persevere in Holy Spirit-empowered obedience. Such a conclusions runs counter to the notion of 'once saved, always saved'.

To add further credence to this position, Jesus admonishes in Rev. 2: 10-11 to believers in the church of Smyrna to "Remain faithful..." and then and only then will he "give you ('them'-mine) the crown of life". Then to add fuel to the fire He states to believers in verse 11, that "Whoever is victorious willnot be hurt by the second death". We know from Rev. 20:14, that the "second death' is the "Lake of fiery sufur". Again, the implications are that believers must continue in a humble, repentant faith in God through the Person and work of Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit; not by our own works of righteousness, but through His mercy He saved us, by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

The moment we attempt to work at saving ourselves, and keep ourselves saved, we are pursuing a lost cause. But, when we allow the Spirit of God to continually work His work through us, then we are truly enduring in the works of righteousness and can pass the salvation exam given by John the Apostle in the whole epistle of 1John but underscored in I John 2:3-6, "And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments. If somone says, 'I belong to God' but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth. But those who obey God's word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did." (NLT)

Admittedly, this a very controversial issue. I know that there are Scriptures that on the surface seem to contradict it. I will admit this. However, could it be that these Scriptures are being misunderstood? This is a question I have honestly asked and overall can affirm and state that I believe my understanding is accurate, and by the way, is consistent with the teaching of the early church. Of course not all those within the early church, but a significant number.

I would welcome an honest response to this from anyone who is willing to do so in a charitable manner. I know I am new to this site and haven't really earned a right to be heard, but since this issue is relevant to my recent experience, I thought I would give a little bit of my perspective. By the way, I believe, there are many Calvinists and Armenians both who are genuinely converted and seek to live for God. I, myself and grateful for the opportunity to dialogue in gentleness and respect.

God Bless us as we faithfully serve Him, and rescue us when we are not! Amen.

Mark S.

[Allinall]

Brothers!  It's good to drop by!  I miss the opportunities I had in the past to frequent CU.  I used to think I was busy!    But God is good.   

Brother Kintups,

It's great to see new people and ones who are studying God's word to learn His truth.  I will pray for you as you study.  Let me say, that as you

read Scripture and just let it speak for itself without little or no 'tweaking'.

...please make sure that you keep that up!  Here's why:

Most interpretations that a believer can lose their salvation come from the book of Hebrews and are read out of context.  I won't go into it deeper unless you want, but would encourage you to look deeper into this subject.  Personally, I think Calvin was closer.  But, no one's got it all figured out.  It is, as Paul stated often, a mystery.

His,

Kevin  a.k.a. Allinall

[nChrist]

Hello Allinall,

Brother Kevin, it's nice to see you again, and I hope this means that you will be visiting more often again. We do miss you and others. I know exactly what you mean in your post. Because I do, I consider Hebrews to be a MOST beautiful book and worthy of considerable study. Putting it into historical and Biblical context makes Hebrews a book that explains many mysteries. Hebrews is involved in many controversies that men have, but it can be the most beautiful and worthwhile Bible Study in the Bible.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 25:8  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

[nChrist]

Hello Kintups!

WELCOME!

I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

I understand your views, but I don't share them. This doesn't mean that we can't have sweet fellowship - we can! I would simply ask you to take another look at many of the Scriptures you are concentrating on and look at them with some additional thoughts. As an example, some of the Scriptures you are looking at pertain to the Tribulation Period, not this current Age of Grace. There is also considerable confusion between what was taught and believed by Jews, and the differences in teaching after JESUS CHRIST died on the CROSS for our sins.

I firmly believe there are many things that Christians can lose, but Salvation isn't one of them in my opinion. We can lose REWARDS that are over and beyond Salvation. Rewards are for Eternity, but many Christians don't study much about Rewards. To say that a Christian has lost Rewards or a CROWN is not the same thing as saying that a Christian has lost Salvation. The two are separate and distinct, but only a Christian can receive REWARDS. Please notice that the Bible mentions many times, "That your joy might be more full." What Christians do or don't do within the Will of GOD for us definitely impacts our JOY in this short life. The same is true for the quality of our Daily Fellowship with GOD. Christians do suffer loss when they don't obey GOD'S Will, but the loss isn't Salvation. The Apostle Paul explained this the best. Paul wanted to please GOD, regardless of the cost, and Paul showed tremendous determination in finishing what he called the race, the course, and the fight. Paul wanted to hear from GOD in the ETERNAL LIFE to come, "Well done, good and faithful servant." He wanted to hear this from GOD, and Paul was willing to die to hear this. In fact, Paul was martyred and was killed by men because of his obstinate STAND FOR CHRIST that he refused to compromise.

These things are not required for Salvation, but they are the keys for understanding portions of Scripture that appear to contradict each other. There is no contradiction in Scripture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 NASB  Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,  2  but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.  3  And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,  4  in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.  5  For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.  6  For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.  7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;  8  we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;  9  persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;  10  always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.  11  For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.  12  So death works in us, but life in you.  13  But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,  14  knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.  15  For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.  16  Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.  17  For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,  18  while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

[kintups70]

Friends,

Thank you for your responses. I don't know just how many posts I will make or if I'm up for a long debate. But in response to your statements I must at least address a couple of issues.

First of all, I really have looked at both sides of the issue. As I stated previously, I was a 5-Point Calvinist for a number of years. Unfortunately, when I read Scripture, I tended to 'breeze over' the passages that conflicted with this position, and focus on the ones that seemed to line up precisely with John Calvan's dogma.

It was not until I dared to think outside the proverbial systematic 'box' that I began to take a real look into the text. You could say that I was a man with a mission, a mission to find out what the Scriptures actually state and then formulate my theology accordingly. Of course this is what professional systematic theologians have done for centuries whether the ancient rabbis and their Talmud, or modern seminary professors who write books, treatises and devise think-tank organizations.

Having been reared in a dispensational conservative church, I never really had any desire to question the teaching. I just assumed they were correct and spoke from Siana. When I became an adult (many years ago, now), I sampled church after church, after church, denomination after denomination, and finally years later figured out that on nonessentials no one really knows what there talking about. Just kidding, in part, but there is a point to be made here. We (including myself, at times) think we have all the answers or believe our theological slant is correct, then God comes along and wrecks it at some point.

Of course, all genuine believers who are biblically-literate, have an essential agreement on core doctrines, or eternal verities. Outside of this, there are numerous traditions, slants, beliefs, practices, etc. Surely they all call be correct simultaneously!

So in my journey of understanding, I went back to the Bible with the understanding that it is divinely inspired, infallible, and authoritative. And, it is best understood within its historical, grammatical, canonical, and cultural contexts. Then, in my quest for understanding on the eternal security or insecurity of the believer, I began to under score any Scripture that seemed to address the issue. If it even hinted of it I underlined it. Then, after reading through the Scriptures in this way; I began to notice patterns consistent with one another. For instance, Jesus stated that those who abided in the vine would flourish producing various amounts of fruit. Others, who don't abide in the vine, are cut off and piled up and burned. Other passages in the gospels or epistles that spoke of abiding in Christ were deemed relevant, so I compared and contrasted like the Bereans of old, and began to link them together harmoniously. I literally began to see a whole new picture of the security of the believer than I had previously understood by reading them through the grid of my church or tradition.

Then, I examined the texts that are most often used as proofs for eternal security, and noticed that only a few of them presented any real challenge to my view. Then with further reading and study, I recognized that those who are abiding in the Spirit daily will not be plucked out of the Father and Son's hands. But those who are disobedient, God will find no pleasure in them. They will be cut-off as Jesus said.

Another thing that I dont do is read the New Testament with the mind set that a certain book or chapter was only for believers in a certain era of church history. My Bible declares that "All Scriptures is God breathed, and is profitable for teaching for reproof, for training in righteousness..." It's a dangerous thing to pick and choose what I deem as still relevant or applicable today. For instance, many today state that repentance (change of mind resulting in a change of conduct) is not necessary for salvation. They say that John the Baptist and Jesus' ministry were before Pentecost, so it doesn't apply for us today. Has the God of Israel changed His mind on the nature of sin? Has He now declared in 2008 that it is not necessary to stop sinning? Certainly, we can only do this in the Power of the Holy Spirit. Other wise, it is us attempting to work are way to God.

Faith is a weighty word in the Bible. In the whole Bible, it seems to mean more than trust cling to or reply upon. It also means contrition, brokenness, repentance, obedience. Faith without works is dead, void, useless, empty. All of these are works of the Spirit. It's a package deal, granted that manifests over time, with varying degrees, from person-to-person. So is it a one-time deal? No. It's a daily death to self and rebirth to God in Christ. That is why Jesus stated we must take up our crosses daily and follow Him.

 I have known people (as a part-time chaplain) who have told me that "Oh yes, I prayed to receive Christ back on such and such a date." "Really, I ask. So you're telling me that you have the Holy Spirit?" "Oh yes!" they reply. Then they go onto tell me that there living with another woman, on on the verge of their third divorce, and dont have the slightest hunger for God's Word. The church is full of such people! By the way, I must judge myself by this same standard! And, I try to do that. But, many may have walked with God and truly been born of the Spirit at some point in their life, but just like the parable of the sower, they walked away from God because of pleasure, the cares of the world, or the enemy stealing the seed of the gospel after a period of time. (Part I)

[kintups70]

My point is this, we are all susceptible to this in our lives if we take are eyes off Christ. The passages I posted from Ezekiel are still applicable today because God has not changed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Please read them with an open mind.

I know a fellow chaplain who assures a man he knows that he is a true believer heading for heaven because as some point in his life he prayed a prayer to receive Christ. The man is currently addicted to drugs ('pharmakia' in the list of sins within the context of hell-fire in the book of Revelation), a womanizer, and habitually is arrested for misconduct. Do you think it's possible that he would fit within the context of Paul's description that "neither fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, etc...will have any share in the kingdom of heaven"? Obviously paraphrased. Some have taught that this is simply a loss of reward. To them I would ask, "What is the opposite of inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven? Answer: Inheriting the Kingdom of darkness. What is the ultimate outcome of those in the kingdom of darkness? The Lake of Fire.

What about some key leaders in the church who walked with God for many years, then get caught up in the practice of homosexuality? Are they eternally secure? Not according to Paul's lists, not according to the apostle John. Maybe they were at one point, but the enemy gained a foot hold, and now they are a lover of the world (the lusts of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life) and John says in his first epistle that they are an enemy of God and that they have no love for God.

I for one,  refuse to reinterpret, twist, omit, or deny a passage that doesn't fit a preconceived notion of whom or whatever. I deal with this all the time in the mission agency I work through. They would prefer we "walked the line" and not talk about these things, and just get them to 'pray the prayer'. What prayer? Was that Jesus or Paul's mission? To get the Jews or Gentiles of their day to pray a prayer? No, Paul said that the message he had for both Jews and Gentiles was one of repentance from sin and of faith in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (In Acts on two occasions.)

This prefabricated prayer concept is so unbliblcal and unlike Christ or the apostles. I certainly am not saying that people have not genuinely repented and have been brought to an obedient faith in Christ initiated by this kind of technique. But, it seems we overall have turned pushed technique above the message itself. What in the world have we done to the message of the gospel? It's now user-friendly and requires no real commitment on anyone's part. Yet the Bible still affirms that "the unrighteous will not see God." Maybe this is why Jesus said "many would say 'Lord, Lord," and then they would be cast out of His Presence. This is unpopular within the evangelical-fundamental churches today. But again, it's still in the Bible. John MacArthur's duo on the gospel of Christ and the apostles is so relevant to this discussion and in my opinion is a prophetic word; though admittedly we would differ on the matter of eternal security.

So, all in all, I take the text of Scripture very seriously. I don't focus on just the Hebrews 6 or 10 passages or just Peter. I can go to nearly every epistle and find proof for my position, including Romans of all places! The 'Romans Road' as is commonly understood, is missing a few key elements. But that's another discussion altogether.

I certainly am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of an argument, but am passionate because I believe that we as teachers in the church will be held highly accountable for how we live and what we teach. The eternal souls of men, woman and young people are at stake. Do we really still believe this in the church today? Why is hell so unpopular? I certainly don't like the subject, but it's still in the Bible, and was the topic of discussion in Jesus' sermons on a frequent basis.

Anyway, I respect your views having been there myself. I commend a book to you that in no way shaped my thinking, but was helpful in confirming afterward what I had come to believe on my own through my own study. It is entitled, "The Believer's Conditional Security" by Daniel D. Corner, published by Evangelical Outreach.  I certainly don't like the way he attacks some people (villifying them) in his ministry, but the essence of his belief on this issue is consistent with my own, and is written very concise and comprehensive in this book (full of Scripture!)  So, even if you don't agree I commend it to you as a good read and exercise in understanding.

Thanks for your time, and understanding, even if we disagree. There's certainly a cluster of essentials we certainly can and do agree on. And, in this common bond I rejoice. In my opinion, there's not much time left, and we need to do as this website says, 'Christians Unite'. Persecution is inevitable in the not to distant future for us. So we need to be of one mind and heart in the Person and work of Christ. Amen.

In the love of Jesus for His Church,

Mark S.

[Jemidon2004]

Meh. That sums it up for me. Here's something the military has taught me. It has ingrained into me the fundamental belief that no matter how we theologically and apologetically discuss the differing schools of thought, it all comes full circle to one crucial question: Did Christ exist in the capacity as Servant, King, Lion,Lamb,God and Son of God? Yes. Following this thought, we are faced with the question next: Did this "King of the Jews" die and was buried? Yes. Then the fundamental link that holds all of christianity together is the fundamental understanding that there is some measure of faith that is placed (to the Christian, Undeniably) in the fact that Christ died ONCE, was buried ONCE, remained in the Tomb, to be Raised by the Power of the Holy Spirit, to be seated at the right hand of the Father. It is by this knowledge of the sacrifice that was made (given by the Holy Spirit because this wisdom is of God) and the blood that was shed that covers all of our sins. All that being said: each person will have their own systematic theology that forms the basis of their belief system. Should we let that come between us? No. I have learned that there is a diverse nature in the matters of Theology, but the one common factor is a belief in a higher power (God) and His Son (Jesus) who came and took the form of man, but was God, and He lived among us without blemish, only to be put to death as a sacrifice, so that such perfect blood could cleanse us from sins. Romans says this: Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide(Q) never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

It reminds me of the song "In Christ Alone." When I go into battle I think of that song.

n Christ alone my hope is found;
He is my light, my strength, my song;
This cornerstone, this solid ground,
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm.
What heights of love, what depths of peace,
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease!
My comforter, my all in all—
Here in the love of Christ I stand.

In Christ alone, Who took on flesh,
Fullness of God in helpless babe!
This gift of love and righteousness,
Scorned by the ones He came to save.
Till on that cross as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied;
For ev'ry sin on Him was laid—
Here in the death of Christ I live.

There in the ground His body lay,
Light of the world by darkness slain;
Then bursting forth in glorious day,
Up from the grave He rose again!
And as He stands in victory,
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me;
For I am His and He is mine—
Bought with the precious blood of Christ.

No guilt in life, no fear in death—
This is the pow'r of Christ in me;
From life's first cry to final breath,
Jesus commands my destiny.
No pow'r of hell, no scheme of man,
Can ever pluck me from His hand;
Till He returns or calls me home—
Here in the pow'r of Christ I'll stand.

So there you have it. In the end, those who experience the Power of Christ. We will be greeted in heaven "Well done my faithful servant."

My God is Sovereign, I am nothing without my God
My will is bound by His will as I seek to fulfill His will as He is my King.

Just my thoughts.

Joshua

[nChrist]

AMEN! - Beautiful posts ALL!

Hello Brother Joshua, it's nice to see you on the forum again and read your posts.

Our differences on this subject are only worthy of discussion - not debate - and certainly not anything to get upset over. I'll end my part of this by saying that there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible from cover to cover. GOD'S WORD is perfectly woven together from beginning to end. What may look like a contradiction to men is not. The Bible itself answers all of the questions perfectly without any other books, denominational teaching, or traditions of men. This is the joy of searching the Scriptures and ignoring nothing. There are many other issues that I didn't mention and probably won't. All of the Promises of GOD will be kept perfectly. What we can't do - CHRIST CAN!

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

[Brother Jerry]

Amen Tom.


Kintups.

I can only add to this discussion by point out a few things. 

First is that you should always interpret the more complexes verses of the Bible in light of the simple ones.  If there is a simple verse that says the point quite clearly and a more complex verse that you could interpret a different way, then do not, interpret in the light of the simple verse.

Jesus said that no man may pluck us from our Father's hands, thus no man may remove us from that salvation.  Jesus said that once we drink of the water He has to offer, we will never thirst.  It says never, not until we get thirsty again, or until we do not want to drink for a while or anything of that nature, it says never.  Jesus also stated that the life He is giving is eternal, which means forever, this is not a life that has a time limit, or one that we can throw away or anything of that nature, it is eternal.  Those are some simple verses that should be used to help shed light on some of the more complex verses that you are using.

Second.  You brought up some good examples of men that we have seen or heard of that have done the "fall from grace" and try to use that as an example of someone who has lost their salvation.  But let me ask you this, as Paul had written that all those people will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, what do we know of the men who were crucified with Jesus?  One was a thief, and Jesus himself said that he would dine with Him in heaven that night. 

You are right that we should see a change in people once they accept Christ.  And you are right that it is more than saying a prayer, it is a life commitment.  However accepting Christ does not make us perfect.  Paul also wrote a simple verse that stated "all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God."  It does not say, unsaved men, or men that do not know Christ, it says all men, and that would include Paul himself, along with Peter, John, James, and the rest of them.  And we do, each and every one of us are sinners and we do fall short of God's glory. If you looked at my life since turning it over to Christ you would still have to say that I am not deserving of heaven.

The concept of losing our salvation means that Christ died in vain.  If we could get and lose our salvation simply by our actions then Christ would not have needed to come to earth and die.  We could have just followed more rules set forth by God.  If we could lose and gain our salvation by what we do the Christ would not have had to conquer death and rise 3 days later, we could have simply had another 10 commandments. 

Just some thoughts on that subject.  Have a blessed Christmas.

[child_of_light]

ARE YOU SAYING THAT ONCE YOU EXCEPT CHRIST AS YOU SAVIOR YOU ARE SAVED NO MATTER WHAT EVEN IF YOU STILL SIN?

[David_james]

Actually we get salvation. We don't get saved until we die.
Therefore, once we get salvation, we can't lose it.