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airIam2worship
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2006, 12:05:50 AM »

Amen Brother, it is wonderful to see Brothers and Sisters have a friendly discussion and we all learn a little.

I for one am now studying further into this topic.

Brothers and Sisters keep up the great discussion
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2006, 06:51:21 AM »



1.  Daniel's 70 Weeks were "determined against" Israel, not the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. The church which is the BODY OF CHRIST was a complete mystery to Daniel. So, please keep in mind that Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST are two different entities with some promises that apply to both and some that do NOT apply to both.


Jeremiah 30:7
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2006, 04:07:36 PM »

1.  Daniel's 70 Weeks were "determined against" Israel, not the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. The church which is the BODY OF CHRIST was a complete mystery to Daniel. So, please keep in mind that Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST are two different entities with some promises that apply to both and some that do NOT apply to both.

True, the church was a mystery to the old testament prophets. But the Church was birthed while Israel, the temple and the sacrifices were still in place. AD 70 brought an end to the above. Just as the church was in existence before AD70, when God was dealing specifically with Israel, there is no reason to think that the church will not be there in part of the 70th week when He will continue to deal with Israel.

2.  All saved people reading this post right now were saved by Grace, and the Holy Spirit of God lives in their hearts RIGHT NOW. In fact, our hearts are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and no power in the universe can break that seal, certainly not the devil.

I Totally agree.

3.  Again, all saved people reading this post were saved by Grace, and winning a fight or dying in a fight with the devil was NOT part of GOD'S Plan of Salvation for this age of Grace. Note this carefully: Believers who take the mark of the beast in the Tribulation Period are damned for eternity. To be saved during the Tribulation Period, believers must reject the mark of the beast, endure to the end, be hunted, and even be beheaded to KEEP OR MAINTAIN SALVATION. Great hosts will do just that, and great hosts will be beheaded, but this is NOT a part of the Plan of Salvation for the Age of Grace.  Note this VERY CAREFULLY:  Regardless of how long I live, my heart will still be SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and GOD'S Plan of Salvation will NOT be changed for me. I've already been given the Promises of GOD, and my heart is SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT as a pledge of those promises.

Believers will not take the mark. As a consequence many will be martyred, but not for salvation. I do not believe there are two plans of salvation.  Since Christ suffered, died, and rose again all must come through faith in Jesus Christ no matter what period of time or circumstances they find themselves in. In the seventieth week God is dealing with Israel for the purpose of preparing her to receive Christ as Lord and Savior, Phrophet, Priest, and King. The church is there through part of the 70th week as witnesses right up to the parousia of Christ. Enduring to the end is not for eternal salvation, we already possess that, but for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, as Peter says. It is the final redemption of the body in rapture as Paul says. You have to remember that though satan cannot take away our salvation he can make us defeated Christians and ineffective in our walk and witness with God. He is still like a roaring lion seeking to devour us. Overcomers will recieve special rewards. I will be the first to admit that I do not have perfect light on last things, (I only wish that others would admit the same), but I do believe, as the Day of Christ approaches, we will recieve more light as events unfold and the Holy Spirit teaches.

1Pe 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Kindly Submitted,

asaph
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linssue55
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2006, 06:41:58 PM »

This thread presents the doctrine that the Rapture will take place after the Mark of the Beast, commonly called the post-tribulation Rapture.

1Cr 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Rapture will not occur until the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelations. You can read about them sometime.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (i.e., pre-cede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise before the living are raptured.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

Here is how human dispensations are seperated in human history........


Biblical Dispensations.....

Adam to flood...Pre-Deluveon civilization...(gentile.. Genisis 1:11----the fall----flood----babel)

From flood to christ.....Post Deluveon civilization....(promise and law.... Promise-gen 12 thru exodus 19....Law-Exodus 19 thru Malachi gospels (-Jn 13-17)....promise-Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.....Law-Moses.....promise-Abrahamic Covenant....Law- law of Moses

Curch age...present time....Grace (mystery)-acts 2 thruRev. 5-Epistles....Paul, Peter, John.....Giving of the Holy Spirit

Rapture...moment in time...saints w/Christ in Heaven....1 Thes 4:13-18

Trial and Tribulation....Un-believers left on earth .....7 yrs....last 31/2 years, (Satan cast out of heaven Rev. 12:9) at the end of last 31/2 yrs., battle of Armageddon...Second advent  Rev. 14:11-15 (with the saints)....Jewish-Rev 6-19.....Anti-christ-144,000, true Jewish witnesses.....Abomination of Desolation-Armaggedon Matt 24:15-16


Millenium.....1000 yrs. ...perfect environment....Rev. 20....Kingdom of Christ

At the end of Millenium....battle og Gog & Magog

Then starts eternity...new heaven and earth.....great white throne judgement.....eternal hell

(the first 31/2 yrs of Trial and Tribulation beast 1 &2 makes FALSE covenant with Isreal...Isa. 28:15-18....Last 31/2 yrs. man of sin (satan) demands worship..2 Thes.2...political power.[/size]
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2006, 03:49:12 AM »

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

Here the phrase, "the first resurrection" does not infer that there was no resurrection prior to this one but rather this resurrection is in the class of or order of the first resurrection. Let me post a brief commentary concerning this, which will clarify what I am saying.

This is the first resurrection = clarifies the significance of the resurrection of the beheaded faithful. Their resurrection is a part of a larger event that can correctly be described as "the first resurrection." Since only the beheaded dead are described as resurrected in Revelation 20:4, this must be a part of a greater whole. For the resurrection will include all the saints of all the ages. The only biblical solution is to recognize the explanation of the apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 states,

    For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Paul clearly delineates several groupings, all of which constitute "the first resurrection." Christ is described as the first fruits. Metaphorically, if Christ is the first fruits, then the rest of the harvest follows later. Paul is using the figure of speech taken from agriculture. Any farmer knows that a crop does not ripen all at once. Usually, a small portion ripen first, then the largest portion ripens and lastly a small portion ripens late. In keeping with Paul’s figure of speech, whether one is taken as the first fruits, the general harvest or the last of the harvest, all fruit would be considered part of the harvest. There is one harvest regardless of when the fruit is picked.

The next gathering of ripened fruit (resurrection of the dead) will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia). The apostle Paul describes it as a "snatching away" of the righteous living and dead. Paul indicates that this event will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia) (1 Thess 4:16). Revelation 20:4 indicates a final group (the late harvest) will finish the harvest begun with the resurrection of Jesus. This harvest from Christ to the beheaded dead constitutes "the first resurrection."


I hope this helps.

asaph
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2006, 05:46:23 AM »

Brothers and Sisters,

Here's a couple of more interesting facts to consider. If you want more details that you can possibly want, there are threads still here on the forum with tremendous details that are heavily documented with Scripture.

First, I think you will find this very interesting for study. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate events. For the Rapture of the Church, JESUS CHRIST will NOT come all the way down to the earth, rather the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be "caught up" to meet the LORD in the air.

At the Second Coming of Christ, JESUS CHRIST will definitely come all the way down to the earth, and there will be a list of terrible events against evil. There will be "hosts" in the armies that follow JESUS CHRIST. Who are the members of those armies? I'll give you a hint and say that I'm firmly convinced that I will be one of those in the hosts following CHRIST.

I've just covered a few of the major reasons why I believe that the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be raptured before the beginning of the Tribulation Period. There are many other reasons why I firmly believe this, but I will quickly say this is simply my opinion. I've studied other various time lines and sequence of events that I can't get to mesh with Scriptures, but others have said the same about my opinion. Their are five general opinions about the Tribulation Period that have been debated for centuries. One of the important things for us to remember is that other Brothers and Sisters in Christ held these opinions."Which group is right or wrong isn't worth division or anyone getting angry. They are:

1 - Preterist - The Tribulation Period happened in 70 AD and is old history. They have various thoughts about the Rapture and various thoughts about what age we might be living in now.

2 - Pre-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

3 - Mid-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture,

4 - Post-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

5 - Pre-Wrath - The Rapture occurring before God starts pouring out any of HIS Wrath on the earth.

I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.


Brothers and Sisters, I do believe that genuine believers in JESUS will lose Salvation in the Tribulation Period by taking the mark of the beast. There's a reason why the Holy Bible mentions this, and it doesn't mesh with the Age of Grace that we live in now. Others may call the time we live in now as the "Church Age" or other titles I can't remember right now.

So far, we've done excellent, and nobody is upset or calling anyone names.  Cheesy  That's great and I hope it stays that way. We've also mentioned several different opinions with highlights that would take many pages of documentation.  So, for now I would say:  everyone pat yourselves on the back for being nice. I'm enjoying the various opinions and taking notes for additional study. Several hundred feet of books have been written on this topic, so it is obviously a very difficult and time-consuming Bible Study. JESUS CHRIST must be and is the center focus for all proper studies of this issue, and the study takes one all over the Bible. It's a fascinating learning experience, regardless of what conclusion you end up with about timing and sequence of events. With JESUS CHRIST as the central focus, this is a very worthy study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21-22 NASB  For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2006, 01:32:54 PM »

Brothers and Sisters,


Here's a couple of more interesting facts to consider. If you want more details that you can possibly want, there are threads still here on the forum with tremendous details that are heavily documented with Scripture.

First, I think you will find this very interesting for study. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate events. For the Rapture of the Church, JESUS CHRIST will NOT come all the way down to the earth, rather the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be "caught up" to meet the LORD in the air.

At the Second Coming of Christ, JESUS CHRIST will definitely come all the way down to the earth, and there will be a list of terrible events against evil. There will be "hosts" in the armies that follow JESUS CHRIST. Who are the members of those armies? I'll give you a hint and say that I'm firmly convinced that I will be one of those in the hosts following CHRIST.

I've just covered a few of the major reasons why I believe that the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be raptured before the beginning of the Tribulation Period. There are many other reasons why I firmly believe this, but I will quickly say this is simply my opinion. I've studied other various time lines and sequence of events that I can't get to mesh with Scriptures, but others have said the same about my opinion. Their are five general opinions about the Tribulation Period that have been debated for centuries. One of the important things for us to remember is that other Brothers and Sisters in Christ held these opinions."Which group is right or wrong isn't worth division or anyone getting angry. They are:

1 - Preterist - The Tribulation Period happened in 70 AD and is old history. They have various thoughts about the Rapture and various thoughts about what age we might be living in now.

2 - Pre-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

3 - Mid-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture,

4 - Post-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

5 - Pre-Wrath - The Rapture occurring before God starts pouring out any of HIS Wrath on the earth.

I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.


Brothers and Sisters, I do believe that genuine believers in JESUS will lose Salvation in the Tribulation Period by taking the mark of the beast. There's a reason why the Holy Bible mentions this, and it doesn't mesh with the Age of Grace that we live in now. Others may call the time we live in now as the "Church Age" or other titles I can't remember right now.

So far, we've done excellent, and nobody is upset or calling anyone names.  Cheesy  That's great and I hope it stays that way. We've also mentioned several different opinions with highlights that would take many pages of documentation.  So, for now I would say:  everyone pat yourselves on the back for being nice. I'm enjoying the various opinions and taking notes for additional study. Several hundred feet of books have been written on this topic, so it is obviously a very difficult and time-consuming Bible Study. JESUS CHRIST must be and is the center focus for all proper studies of this issue, and the study takes one all over the Bible. It's a fascinating learning experience, regardless of what conclusion you end up with about timing and sequence of events. With JESUS CHRIST as the central focus, this is a very worthy study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21-22 NASB  For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
Brothers and Sisters-
Mid trib and post trib could actually set a date once the 70th week of Daniel begins. That is one reason I reject those positions. Bo one can know the day or the hour.

Mid Trib-This view emerged in 1941 with the publication of the book, "The End: Rethinking the Revelation" by Norman B. Harrison. They believe that the Rapture of the Church will occur at the mid-point of the seventieth week of Daniel. They see the second half of the seventieth week as the wrath of God and as a result the church will not be here when God pours out His wrath on the earth.

Post trib-There are a number of views in the posttribulation camp. Some posttribulationalists see the church in tribulation since its beginnings and do not view the seven year period as futuristic. The most prevalent view today is that the seven year period is yet in the future, and that although the Church will experience this time of tribulation, it will be sheltered by God's protection before the second coming. George Ladd in his book "The Blessed Hope" and Robert Gundry in his book "The Church and The Tribulation" both teach that the church will experience the seven year period which will conclude with the rapture of the church.

Pre trib-This view was first known as "the secret" or "any moment rapture." It is a relatively new position which was first taught by the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church, Edward Irving in the late 1820's. It was then picked up by Plymouth Brethren pastor John Nelson Darby, and he first preached on it in 1843. It came to America in the late 1800's and was popularized by C.I. Schofield when he revised his Bible notes in 1917. Pretribulationists teach that the return of Christ has been imminent since the days of the early church and that the church will be raptured sometime before the seventieth week begins. Although they have no Scripture that in so many words teaches it, they teach that there are no signs and the rapture could take place at any moment. The seventieth week of Daniel is therefore considered to be a seven-year period of God's judgmental "tribulation" (hence the term pretribulation). This position generally views the seventieth week as the day of the Lord's wrath from which the church is excluded.

Pre wrath-The Prewrath position teaches that the true church will be raptured when the great tribulation by Antichrist, inspired by Satan, is cut short by God's day-of-the-Lord wrath, which will occur between the sixth and seventh seals of Revelation, sometime during the second half of the seventieth week. The persecution associated with the great tribulation of Antichrist is viewed as the wrath of Satan, whereas the events that follow, beginning with the seventh seal, are considered the wrath of God. There is another term that is sometimes expressed, "historical premillennialism," which refers back to the teaching of the early church fathers before 325 A.D. They believed that the church would face the persecution of Antichrist and Christ would then reign for 1000 years upon the earth. With the exception of two, Origen and Clement of Alexandria, who were allegorists, they all taught this view. Prewrath is plainly and simply an expansion of this view which was biblical then and biblical now.

asaph
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2006, 03:12:29 PM »

I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.

BEP-
You said it well. I reject the preterist view but I know some very kind and loving christians who hold this view. I also go to a Missionary Alliance Church that holds to the pre trib rapture.

1Jo 1:3  ... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

asaph
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2006, 08:22:30 PM »

This thread presents the doctrine that the Rapture will take place after the Mark of the Beast, commonly called the post-tribulation Rapture.

1Cr 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Rapture will not occur until the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelations. You can read about them sometime.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (i.e., pre-cede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise before the living are raptured.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

Hi Christ's Serf-
I would like to give my views on the last trump. First, let me quote Roger Best. I think he sums up pretty well my views concerning the last trumpet:

A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet. At the last blast of a trumpet, the dead will be raised. The name of this trumpet is not "the last trumpet." This is not what Paul is indicating here. Rather, the focus is on the sound of the trumpet. This passage gives no clue what trumpet is blown. Only that when the last blast occurs, the dead will be raised.

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21. There the trumpet not only served to alert the people to the coming of God into man's domain, but also to warn the people of the seriousness of the moment. This will be the case again at the rapture of the church when God the Father comes with Jesus to deliver the righteous and begin the punishment of the wicked.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.

Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.
Thus we can conclude correctly that Paul's trumpet blast and the trumpets of Revelation are not the same.


Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet? It is said that they came out of great tribulation. I believe this refers to the coming out of the persecution inflicted by antchrist and that it cut short those days of persecution.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.

After they leave there will be yet another group that will be resurrected later.

Look at Rev 20:

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who are the throne sitters? The identity of these throne-sitters is not explicitly indicated. In the context of the millennial reign of Christ, these individuals must be the faithful saints of the ages. Otherwise, there is no mention of the saints in general connected with the 1000-year reign of Christ at this point in the Revelation. However, unlike the beheaded martyrs to follow, these individuals are already seated on the thrones when John sees them. They have already received the right to render judgments. Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.
Who are the beheaded ones? Many commentators generalize this group into the whole of saints throughout the ages, but this conclusion is not necessary. John specifically indicates that this group was beheaded. Pelikizein meaning "to behead with an axe" is very specific. Some try to make Revelation 6:9, which refers to martyrs and Revelation 20:4 refer to the same group. However, this again is a case of over generalizing the similarities to the neglect of the differences. For John to refer to all believers as martyrs indicates a gross abuse of both language and truth. To behead with an axe limits the application of Revelation 20:4 to those so killed. However, Revelation 6:9 uses a term that could describe death resulting from many different possibilities. This simply is not the case in Revelation 20:4. There are two groups described in Revelation 20:4—the throne-sitters and the beheaded faithful. The beheaded faithful refused to worship the beast or his image, which is the expressed requirement to live on the earth during the reign of the dragon. The gravity of one’s refusal to worship the beast can be seen in the consequence—beheading.

asaph



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christserf
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2006, 05:59:58 PM »

Hello Asaph:

Quote
Since only the beheaded dead are described as resurrected in Revelation 20:4, this must be a part of a greater whole.
No, John didn't say that that was all he saw, he just stated that he saw the beheaded dead.  He could very well have seen others and just not mentioned them.

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Paul clearly delineates several groupings, all of which constitute "the first resurrection."
No he doesn't.  He states that Christ is the first fruits and that those which are Christ's will be ressurected when He returns.  He does not say that there will be a "general harvest" and a "late harvest", nor does he say that Christ was part of the first ressurection.  Is there any passage of Scripture which specifically mentions a "general harvest" and a "late harvest"?

This interpretation figuratizes the term "first resurrection".  Of course there were earlier people who were resurrected, but those events were never described as part of a "first resurrection.

I'll reply to your other post in a bit.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth

Christ's Serf
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2006, 07:11:05 PM »

Hello Asaph:
No, John didn't say that that was all he saw, he just stated that he saw the beheaded dead.  He could very well have seen others and just not mentioned them.
No he doesn't.  He states that Christ is the first fruits and that those which are Christ's will be ressurected when He returns.  He does not say that there will be a "general harvest" and a "late harvest", nor does he say that Christ was part of the first ressurection.  Is there any passage of Scripture which specifically mentions a "general harvest" and a "late harvest"?

This interpretation figuratizes the term "first resurrection".  Of course there were earlier people who were resurrected, but those events were never described as part of a "first resurrection.

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A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet.
After conducting my own study(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1148163646-6153.html#52), I disagree.  In the phrase "the last trump" the word "last" is separate from "trump", and the word "trump" is the same word translated as "a trumpet", "salpigx".  The phrase "the trumpet shall sound" is all one word, "salpizo".  If the "last" had refferred to the sounding of the trumpet then it would have been the "last salpizo", not the "last salpigx".

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Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21.
No where in the Exodus passage is any trumpet referred to as "the trumpet of God".

Quote
These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. ... Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you deny that this describes the Rapture and subsequent judgement?  It plainly says that He is giving reward to His servants, do you deny that this reward includes the immortal body described in the 1 Cor. Rapture passage?

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The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.
Please specify.

Quote
Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.
Where does he get his timing for this "great trumpet"?  As you can see in the beginning of the verse Isaiah is speaking of "that day".  He has been talking of "that day" for a long time.  Here's another thing that he says about "that day".

Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].  And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Compare it with these verses:

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption (at the last trumpet, v. 52), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Quote
Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet?
There's no indication here that they were Raptured.  I think that they were in heaven because they were killed.  Is there some reason to think otherwise?

Quote
There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.
Yes, the Lord's coming does shorten the days of persecution, but does that tell us anything about how long we're gong to be persecuted before Jesus shortens the days?

Quote
After they leave there will be yet another group that will be resurrected later.
You're presuming that the Rev. 7 group were resurrected.  Is there any indication that this group has received their glorified bodies at the time they were mentioned?

Quote
Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.
Immediately after Revelation 11 is the prophecy of the woman with twelve stars who gave birth to a man child.  This (I think) has always been taken to be a parable to the birth of Christ.  Hence, at this point, Revelation jumps out of chronological sequence with the preceding chapters.  I think that Rev. 11:18 and 20:4 are describing the same event.  Look at the parrellels and let me know if you disagree. 

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2006, 03:34:46 AM »

Hello Christserf,
I posed the question:
Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet?

Your answer:
There's no indication here that they were Raptured.  I think that they were in heaven because they were killed.  Is there some reason to think otherwise?

My response:
Lets read the verse:
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They stood. They had legs, feet and hands. This is a description of resurrected bodies.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Commentary:
These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation = is full of interpretive insights. First, the elder is answering the second question asked in verse 13b, "from where have they come?" In English, a "where" question usually anticipates a specific location. However, a specific place is not given but a specific time is indicated. The great tribulation has one parallel in Scripture—Matthew 24:21. In that specific passage, the definite article the is not used. As one of the original recipients of the Olivet Discourse (Mark 13:3), John, the apostle, heard Jesus use this very specific term. Therefore, his use reflects previous knowledge. The great tribulation is not a place, but a specific time. This is reflected in the translation of NASB, which states, "For those days will be a time of tribulation…(Mark 13:19)." This is in harmony with Daniel 12:1, which also calls this period "a time of distress." This universally innumerable multitude will arrive in heaven during the period of the great tribulation.

Out of suggests that this universally innumerable multitude come out of the midst of the great tribulation. The phrase, the ones who come translates a Greek substantival participle. In the context, the universally innumerable multitude is composed of "the ones who come." The participle in and of itself does not speak to issue of the timing of their arrival. However, this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group. This is supported by the following statement.

They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb = answers the second question posted in verse 13b above. The fact that the Lord states that overcomers "shall be clothed in white garments (Rev 3:5)," and that the Laodiceans should purchase "white garments, that the shame [of their] nakedness may not be revealed…(Rev 3:18)," limits the interpretation of Revelation 7:14b. The fact that every member of the universally innumerable multitude has "washed and made white" his robes removes any possibility that martyrdom is the action described here. While some members of the universally innumerable multitude did die the death of a martyr, this cannot be said for the entire group. Yet, every single member "washed and made white" his or her robe.

The fact that both the "washing" and the "making white" are described as past tense forces the participle "the ones who come" to be past tense as well. The Greek language works this way. This supports our conclusion that the universally innumerable multitude arrives in heaven as a group and not as individuals over a period of time.

If they all arrived at exactly the same time then this indicates a rapture and not a gradual arriving as would be the case of souls being martyred over a period of time.

asaph
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2006, 12:56:11 PM »

Hello Asaph:
No, John didn't say that that was all he saw, he just stated that he saw the beheaded dead.  He could very well have seen others and just not mentioned them.
No he doesn't.  He states that Christ is the first fruits and that those which are Christ's will be ressurected when He returns.  He does not say that there will be a "general harvest" and a "late harvest", nor does he say that Christ was part of the first ressurection.  Is there any passage of Scripture which specifically mentions a "general harvest" and a "late harvest"?

This interpretation figuratizes the term "first resurrection".  Of course there were earlier people who were resurrected, but those events were never described as part of a "first resurrection.

I'll reply to your other post in a bit.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth

Christ's Serf
I do not see it figuratizes it at all. If anything it make real the figures of the Old Testament. The bible says we will be in the likeness of his resurrection. If He was not raised then neither will we. First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later. The first resurrection is pictured by the harvest in nature. The harvest comes in stages.

The fact that only the beheaded are mentioned here is significant. I need not restate my stand here.

In conclusion, the things that happen in the OT are types or pictures of the realities of the new testament. They are figures of things to come. The harvest is no exception to this. That does not make Rev.20 figurative, it makes it the fulfilment of the figures. There is a difference.

Thank you,

asaph

 
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2006, 03:43:46 PM »

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Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.
Where does he get his timing for this "great trumpet"?  As you can see in the beginning of the verse Isaiah is speaking of "that day".  He has been talking of "that day" for a long time.  Here's another thing that he says about "that day".

sa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].  And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

You are right. THAT DAY has a wider range of application than just the 70th week. It also includes the 1000 year reign of Christ.The timing of this trumpet sound fits best after the 70th week. Israel certainly is not worshiping the Lord today, they will not worship him till after the 70th week.

asaph
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2006, 03:48:59 PM »

Quote
There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.
Yes, the Lord's coming does shorten the days of persecution, but does that tell us anything about how long we're gong to be persecuted before Jesus shortens the days?


But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?

asaph
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