The Rapture is after the Mark of the Beast

[asaph]

Quote
Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.
Immediately after Revelation 11 is the prophecy of the woman with twelve stars who gave birth to a man child.  This (I think) has always been taken to be a parable to the birth of Christ.  Hence, at this point, Revelation jumps out of chronological sequence with the preceding chapters.  I think that Rev. 11:18 and 20:4 are describing the same event.  Look at the parrellels and let me know if you disagree.

I believe that Rev 12 is partially parenthetical. It fills in details of what this universal war is all about. I do not think chapter 11 is parenthetical at all.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In 11:18 judgement is taking place where God himself is rewarding the saints. I believe this is the judgement seat of Christ.
In 20:4 who are they that sat upon thrones? I believe these are those who received their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ and are now on thrones judging others. You see judgement was given unto them. So this could not be God judging because He does not receive power to judge  but rather has given judgement power to His saints. God is the Greatest Judge, why would He be given judgement? So it must be the saints judging in 20:4.

asaph

[christserf]

Hello Asaph:

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They stood. They had legs, feet and hands. This is a description of resurrected bodies.

In the account of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:23-24) the rich man is described as having eyes, however, this is before the resurrection of the unrighteous.  Furthermore, the unrighteous are never promised resurrected bodies.  Therefore, the mention of a body part does not necessitate that a bodily resurrection has occured.  It may imply it, but it doesn't necessitate it.

The phrase, the ones who come translates a Greek substantival participle. In the context, the universally innumerable multitude is composed of "the ones who come." The participle in and of itself does not speak to issue of the timing of their arrival. However, this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group. This is supported by the following statement.

1)  The phrase "the ones who come" is made up of two Greek words.  Which word contains the substantival participle?

The fact that every member of the universally innumerable multitude has "washed and made white" his robes removes any possibility that martyrdom is the action described here.

Why?

The bible says we will be in the likeness of his resurrection. If He was not raised then neither will we.

Agreed and agreed.

First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later.

Reference?  The 1 Cor. passage doesn't state that.

The first resurrection is pictured by the harvest in nature. The harvest comes in stages.

Yes, harvests do come in stages, but is the event which is called "the first resurrection" ever referred to as coming in stages?  You can't take a parabolic term like 'harvest' and add more meanings to it then are given in Scripture.  For instance, we should be as harmless as doves, and doves also lay eggs; that doesn't mean that we should lay eggs.

The fact that only the beheaded are mentioned here is significant. I need not restate my stand here.

I found an important fact about Rev. 20:4.  The words "I saw" were added to the text by the English translators; I think it was an error to do so.  Without the addition the verse reads:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, ...

Hence, the ones beheaded for the witness of Jesus are actually part of those who are sitting on the thrones.

I believe that Rev 12 is partially parenthetical. It fills in details of what this universal war is all about. I do not think chapter 11 is parenthetical at all.

Neither do I.  I think that from the first seal to the seventh trumpet it is chronological, then it is parenthetical between the trumpets and the vials of wrath.

In 11:18 judgement is taking place where God himself is rewarding the saints. I believe this is the judgement seat of Christ.
In 20:4 who are they that sat upon thrones? I believe these are those who received their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ and are now on thrones judging others. You see judgement was given unto them.

I agree.  So far in my mind the time sequence is: seventh trumpet, rapture, saints given judgement, saints sit on thrones and judge.

But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?

Actually, I didn't say anything about the 70th week, that was part of the quote of the commentator that you mentioned.  To be honest, I don't see how the 70th week extends beyond a few years after Christ's death; but maybe there's a connection and I never saw it.

Christ's Serf

[asaph]

Quote
First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later.
Reference?  The 1 Cor. passage doesn't state that.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Firstfruts is the promise of a full harvest that same season. There are many things that are not explicit in scripture but are implicit. Jesus used a lot of parables that were by no means explicit in their meanings. He used nature and familiar things to teach. Paul was relying on the readers understanding of the nature of harvest. He assumed they would understand that first fruits is connected with the ingathering of the main harvest. What I say is this harvest is the first resurrection which is tied to firstfruits. First resurrection only involves the righteous. But includes all the righteous, not just the beheaded ones of Rev. 20. I take Rev 20 as literal, only the beheaded are raised at that point and yet are counted at being included in the first resurrection.
My interpretation is warranted and supported by scripture and you are entitled to disagree.
I think we both agree that we will experience the persecution by antichrist. We both agree that God's wrath is not the same as the wrath of Satan and that we will be spared God's wrath. We differ as to means of being spared His wrath. I believe we will be taken out, you believe we will be protected from His wrath. The timing of the rapture is, therefore, in question. I will tell you what. Come and see me when I it is shown that I was right after all. I promise I will not say "I told you so".

asaph
 

[asaph]

Quote
But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?
Actually, I didn't say anything about the 70th week, that was part of the quote of the commentator that you mentioned.  To be honest, I don't see how the 70th week extends beyond a few years after Christ's death; but maybe there's a connection and I never saw it.

Christ's Serf

Are you partial preterist in your understanding? If so I really do not want to go any further with this discussion. I believe you are my brother in Christ but I find it very unfruitful to debate against your stand. I do appreciate your gentleness. I have a friend who believes the same. We get along fine. I have investigated the preterist and partial preterist doctrines and cannot come to agree with them. Sorry.

Love in Christ

[christserf]

Asaph:

Are you partial preterist in your understanding?

No, I'm not.  It's just that I've never heard of the 70 weeks being brought up in discussing the Rapture, and I never thought of the 70 weeks as equalling any more than a year per day.  Perhaps you could explain what you mean.

Paul was relying on the readers understanding of the nature of harvest. He assumed they would understand that first fruits is connected with the ingathering of the main harvest.

Even if this is true, does any author say that the "main harvest" is split between the "general harvest" and the "late harvest" of those beheaded for the Mark of the Beast?

I take Rev 20 as literal, only the beheaded are raised at that point and yet are counted at being included in the first resurrection.

But Rev. 20 doesn't say that only the beheaded were raised.  Did you read what I said about the words "I saw" being added by the translators?

My interpretation is warranted and supported by scripture and you are entitled to disagree.

If your interpretation is the truth then I am not entitled to disagree with you, because none of us are entitled to disagree with the truth.

I think we both agree that we will experience the persecution by antichrist.

Yes, I agree with that.  Let me ask you this: do you think that Christians should try to remove themselves from people who wish to persecute them?

Christ's Serf

[asaph]

I'm sorry about this post. I do not know how to itemize each response in the correct fashion as you did.

Asaph:
No, I'm not.  It's just that I've never heard of the 70 weeks being brought up in discussing the Rapture, and I never thought of the 70 weeks as equalling any more than a year per day.  Perhaps you could explain what you mean.

Answer
Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

According to the above verses an an end of sin is made for Israel (Daniel's People) after 70 weeks are accomplished. But when was Messiah cut off? Read verses 25 and 26 for the answer.
 
Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26  And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war, --the desolations determined.

Messiah was cut off at his crucifixion after the 7 and 62 weeks which adds up to 69 weeks. This leaves 7 years (1 week) to pass in order to make an end of sin for Israel. Seventy weeks are apportioned-to make an end of sins. So for Israel as a nation after Jesus died for the sins of the world they still have 7 years of God's dealings with them. If you count 7 years from the cross you will see that there is no dealing with Israel in the magnitude of what is prophesied in Revelations. So the 7 years (70th week) has to come later to be fulfilled. Even AD 70 falls way short of all things recorded in Revelations. So that means we are still looking for the beginning of the 70th week.
Pre trib people think the rapture will precede the 70th week but I believe the rapture will take place sometime in the second half of the 7 year period.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations there shall be a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.

The 70th week will begin when a covenant is initiated by Antichrist. But halfway through the 7 year covenant he will put an end to temple sacrifices and proclaim himself to be God and demand worship of himself. See 2 Thess. 2. It is sometime after this that the rapture will take place, we do not know the day or the hour. He will persecute and many will be martyred (Matt.24:15ff). But Jesus Christ will come to the air and send his angels to gather those believers who are alive and remain to Himself. Then God will begin to pour out His wrath on the Nations. During this time others will be saved and beheaded and resurrected at the end of the 70th week (Rev 20:4) But Antichrist will come to his end.


Even if this is true, does any author say that the "main harvest" is split between the "general harvest" and the "late harvest" of those beheaded for the Mark of the Beast?
But Rev. 20 doesn't say that only the beheaded were raised.  Did you read what I said about the words "I saw" being added by the translators?

answer
There is a reason for that. The words "I saw" were added because of the conjunction "and". This conjunction introduces a new part of the vision not to be included with those on thrones.

If your interpretation is the truth then I am not entitled to disagree with you, because none of us are entitled to disagree with the truth.
Yes, I agree with that.  Let me ask you this: do you think that Christians should try to remove themselves from people who wish to persecute them?

answer
No. Not in every case. Paul did used shrewdness at times to avoid premature death. Check out the book of Acts. Why to you think Christians were scrattered. It was to avoid persecution. When persecution cannot be avoided then we are to take it joyfully and boldly in His strength.

Christ's Serf

[ibTina]

The Rapture of the Church has to take place before the mark of the beast because the antichrist cannot be revealed until the Church is raptured and the antichrist will be revealed before his mark is given to the world. Below is something I wrote years ago why I believe the church will be raptured before the antichrist is revealed.

 Here is why I believe the “Restrainer” of second Thess. 2 is the Holy Spirit.

First, we know the Restrainer is a person and not a force. According to verse 7 the restrainer is referred to as “He” two times. This also rules out the restrainer being a woman.

Second, the restrainer has to be powerful enough to restrain Satan who is the one who possesses  the “Son of perdition”. That eliminates man because the Scriptures teach that man is made lower than the angels which Satan was before the fall. Also Michael the arch angel did not fight Satan in his own strength when contending with him. Jude 1: 9 “Yet  Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”  Michael’s victory over Satan was by the power of the Lord and not by his own strength. When man has victory over Satan it is the same way through the power of the Lord (Rev. 12:11). The only power that is powerful enough to prevail against Satan and his kingdom is God.

Third, John 16 shows the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to earth with a special purpose which involves all true believers in the Lord Jesus.

John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.  8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:  9  Of sin, because they believe not on me;  10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;  11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.  15  All things that the Father hath are mine : therefore said I, that he shall take of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.”

Notice that Jesus had to depart in order that He could send us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the God head and therefore as God He is omnipresent which means He is everywhere. So how could Jesus send us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was already here? He sent the Holy Spirit in a new capacity with a different purpose, a new agenda you might say. What was this new agenda? According to the above verses it was to (1) “reprove the world of sin”, (2) “and of righteousness”, (3) “and of judgment”. All these things work in restraining lawlessness wouldn’t you agree? It is interesting to see how the Holy Spirit would carry out this mission. According to the above passage the Holy Spirit is being sent to the believers in Christ (after the cross) to carry out this new agenda. According to John 14 & 15 he will set up residence in the believers for all eternity. It is by indwelling believers in Christ Jesus that the Holy Spirit will carry out this new agenda. So in order for the Antichrist to be revealed the Holy Spirit will have to be removed in this capacity. If the Holy Spirit is removed in this capacity then those who are indwelt by Him for this purpose will have to be removed as well, that is why the rapture of the church has to take place before the Antichrist is revealed. The Holy Spirit as promised was sent in this new capacity in Acts two at Pentecost. Right away we see the Holy Spirit fulfilling this new function through the preaching of the apostles and the result was that thousands turned from their wicked ways unto the Lord. I would say this left quite a dent in the kingdom of Satan and restrained his influence quite effectively in the three thousand souls who were saved by the first message of Spirit filled apostles. Wouldn’t you agree?

Pilgrim

     Bless your heart for such a great post...
             love.   Tina

[ibTina]

Ithe devil can't break the SEAL WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT on the hearts of believers.

   I LOVE this phrase ... AMEN!!

             in His service.. Tina

[christserf]

Hello Asaph, sorry to take so long.

I'm sorry about this post. I do not know how to itemize each response in the correct fashion as you did.

What I do is, while in "post reply" mode,  I copy the section I want to quote and paste it to my message; then highlight it and click on the "quote" button above the text box.

Messiah was cut off at his crucifixion after the 7 and 62 weeks which adds up to 69 weeks. This leaves 7 years (1 week) to pass in order to make an end of sin for Israel. Seventy weeks are apportioned-to make an end of sins. So for Israel as a nation after Jesus died for the sins of the world they still have 7 years of God's dealings with them. If you count 7 years from the cross you will see that there is no dealing with Israel in the magnitude of what is prophesied in Revelations. So the 7 years (70th week) has to come later to be fulfilled. Even AD 70 falls way short of all things recorded in Revelations. So that means we are still looking for the beginning of the 70th week.

First, would you agree that in prophecy any given time span usually does not contain an interruption?  Second, you say that Israel still has "7 years of God's dealings with them".  This is rather vague.  What the passage says is that the 70 weeks are determined "to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins," etc.  It doesn't say that if they don't make an end of sins then He will no longer have any "dealings" with them.  Also, you presume that these "dealings" are connected to the prophecies in Revelations.  Here's the best interpretation that I've seen so far:

The 69 weeks end when Messiah is announced.  Note that it says "after" 69 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, not "at the end of" the 69th week.  "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" refers to the Messiah, not the Antichrist.  Notice that it says that he shall "confirm" the covenant, not "make" a covenant.  Many say that this verse means that the Antichrist will make a covenant between Israel and her enemies, but the word "make" is not in here.  "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" means that in the midst of the week, when Messiah is cut off, Messiah will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease by instituting the new covenant through His death, in which there is no more sacrifice for sin.  As for the rest of the week, the disciples still stayed in Israel and preached there for several years after Jesus' death; until persecution drove them abroad.  This was when the kingdom was taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth fruits, and this ended the 70th week.

There is a reason for that. The words "I saw" were added because of the conjunction "and". This conjunction introduces a new part of the vision not to be included with those on thrones.

The Greek word in that instance is "kai", and it is a general conjuction.  It can be translated and, also, even, indeed, or but.  If it is translated "even" then it would read "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them ... even the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus...".

No. Not in every case. Paul did used shrewdness at times to avoid premature death. Check out the book of Acts. Why to you think Christians were scrattered. It was to avoid persecution. When persecution cannot be avoided then we are to take it joyfully and boldly in His strength.

Indeed, when persecution cannot be avoided then it should be received with joy.  But do you think that there are any cases in which persecution could be avoided but it should not be?  If so, please specify.

Christ's Serf

[truthbtold]

by Anthony Buzzard

 

       The debate over the pre- or post-tribulation rapture should really be called the debate about the pre- or post-trib resurrection. The discussion is about the place of the resurrection in the sequence of end-time events. Will there be a resurrection of the church before the onset of the great tribulation of Daniel’s 70th week? Pre-tribulationism says that the faithful will be resurrected seven years before Christ’s return in power and glory. (This is a new teaching dating from the 1830s, never heard of before that time.)

       Both sides of the argument agree that there will indeed be a resurrection of the dead after the tribulation. But the pre-trib. camp maintains that this post-trib. resurrection has nothing to do with the church — because the Christians will have been resurrected before the tribulation.

       The two positions may be illustrated very simply thus:

       

A
 ---SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD--
 B
 
Pre-trib. secret coming of Jesus
 
 Post-trib. Second Coming of Jesus
 
Pre-trib. rapture/resurrection of Church
 
 Post-trib. Rapture/Resurrection of Church
 

 

       The question is this: Where in Scripture is there a mention of a resurrection before the tribulation period? Consider these facts:   

       1) The Resurrection in Daniel 12:2 (“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake....”) occurs just after the great tribulation described in Daniel 12:1, a verse earlier. This is a post-trib. resurrection.

       2) The gathering of the elect at the sound of the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 happens soon after the great tribulation (see Matt. 24:29, “immediately after the tribulation of those days...”). This is a post-trib. resurrection.

       3) The resurrection promised to the faithful in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 occurs at the last day — presumably the last day of this age, not seven years earlier. This is post-trib.

       4) The resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:23 involves all the Christians and happens “at the coming of Jesus.” Verses 51 and 52 describe this as a mystery which will occur in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

       5) The resurrection of Revelation 11:15-18 (“the time came for the dead to be judged”) happens at the seventh (i.e., last of a sequence of seven) trumpet and this is after the time of the Great Tribulation, as both camps agree. This, too, is a post-trib. resurrection.

       6) The resurrection of the dead found in Revelation 20:4 occurs after the arrival of Jesus to destroy the Beast and False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 21). This, also, is a post-trib. resurrection, as all agree.

       7) The resurrection described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 occurs at the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2) when sudden destruction comes upon the unsuspecting world (1 Thess. 5:3). This, too, must therefore be a post-trib. resurrection.

        The gathering of the church to the Lord at the coming of Jesus promised in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 will not occur until after the Man of Sin is revealed (“The day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed,” v. 3). This, therefore, is a post-trib. resurrection.

       

Where then is the pre-trib. resurrection in which so many place their hope? There appears to be no such event. If the resurrection of the faithful does not occur after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31 (gathering of the elect) where in Matthew 24 does it occur? If the resurrection of the Christians does not occur at the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15, where in Revelation is it mentioned?

       Overlooking the primary evidence above, which establishes the place of the resurrection in the order of events, the pre-trib. argument may attempt a counter-position as follows:

 

       (a) Maintain in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, where the only gathering of the saints mentioned is POST-trib., that there is no mention of the resurrection and gathering of the church. This would mean that in the whole of Jesus’ discussion of the end-time and the Second Coming he omits entirely to say anything about when Christians will be resurrected and gathered! Though he speaks to disciples who are the foundation of the church, PRE-trib. maintains that nothing is said of the resurrection or gathering of the church.

       Note: The “elect” whom Jesus instructs are the faithful church as Matthew 22:14 shows (chosen = “elect,” same Greek word).

       (b) Maintain that the resurrection and gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 [(7) above] happens before the Tribulation.

       Note: This can only be attempted by overlooking the context of the passage. Firstly, 4:13-17, taken without reference to the following context, does not say when this event occurs. But the following verses (5:1-4) do tell us that the event in question will take the world by surprise. This means that it is a post-trib. event, as are all the other descriptions of the resurrection.

       (c) Maintain that Revelation 4:1-2, where John was invited to “come up here,” describes the resurrection and gathering of millions of dead and living Christians. This goes far beyond the evidence. Not a word is said about a rapture or resurrection in this passage.

 

       Final note: 1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us that the resurrection of the faithful will occur at the last trumpet. Revelation 11:15-18 says that when the last (the seventh) trumpet sounds the “time for the dead to be judged and rewarded has come.” This trumpet sounds after the Tribulation, as all agree. Can it seriously be held that the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet are not the same event? If they are the same they provide absolute proof of the post-trib. resurrection for all the faithful. If 11:15 is not the resurrection of the church where in the whole of the book of Revelation is there a pre-tribulation resurrection? Where in the whole Bible is there evidence of a resurrection occurring before the tribulation?

     We should be careful not to place our hopes in an event which the Bible does not promise.


please note,my posiition is,I do not believe in a rapture period,Pre,Mid or Post However we will gather to Christ,this happens at the last trump Christ is coming here we are not going anywher

[nChrist]

please note,my posiition is,I do not believe in a rapture period,Pre,Mid or Post However we will gather to Christ,this happens at the last trump Christ is coming here we are not going anywher

I've heard there are a few people who believe this. I would simply say these folks have not done sufficient Bible study to have an opinion at all on this subject. Share the following portion of Scripture with Mr. Buzzard and ask him to explain what it is:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 NASB  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 NASB  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 NASB  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 NASB  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 NASB  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

_______________________________

I won't argue this subject with you or Mr. Buzzard. I'll simply tell you that you and Mr. Buzzard would have significant study to do before you would be ready to discuss this topic, much less argue it. There are several very large threads on the board that contain more than sufficient information to walk you through a Bible Study on this topic and begin to understand it. Please feel free to share it with Mr. Buzzard. There are several reasonable positions about the timing of the Rapture, but there are no reasonable positions for "no Rapture at all". Regardless, I won't argue it with you, and you will find all the information you need already on the forum. Just do a search for "Rapture". By the way, "Rapture" is derived from the root of "Caught Up", and that should help you get started.

________________________

Welcome to the forum. It appears that you are anxious to find an argument. Maybe someone will be interested to oblige you, but I'm not interested at all.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 55:10-11 NASB  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom,

There are many scriptures that tell us there will indeed be a rapture. There is absolutely no doubt that it will happen. The only question and disagreement that a person might have is in when it will take place.

Mar 12:25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mar 12:26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


1Co 15:12  Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

[Shammu]

Brothers Tom, and Roger, All I can say is AMEN. 

Yes there will be a Rapture, as both brothers Tom, and Roger have pointed out with scripture.


So, when will the mark of the beast come?

The technology exists today, and people are getting chips implanted under their skin today. We have the social security number today, we have paper money today. But I believe the final and ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy of the mark of the beast will take place in the second half of the 7 year tribulation, and before that, Christians may escape that time of trouble in the rapture.

Revelation 14:9-12 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, Whoever pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast's] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,  10 He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God's indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no respite (no pause, no intermission, no rest, no peace) day or night--these who pay homage to the beast and to his image and whoever receives the stamp of his name upon him.  12 Here [comes in a call for] the steadfastness of the saints [the patience, the endurance of the people of God], those who [habitually] keep God's commandments and [their] faith in Jesus.

Revelation 15:2 Then I saw what seemed to be a glassy sea blended with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his statue and from the number corresponding to his name were standing beside the glassy sea, with harps of God in their hands.

Revelation 16:2 So the first [angel] went and emptied his bowl on the earth, and foul and painful ulcers (sores) came on the people who were marked with the stamp of the beast and who did homage to his image.

[truthbtold]

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"I've heard there are a few people who believe this. I would simply say these folks have not done sufficient Bible study to have an opinion at all on this subject. Share the following portion of Scripture with Mr. Buzzard and ask him to explain what it is"

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And I would say that the rapturist have not done a sufficient study either for the simple fact that the rapture is not biblical,with that said lets look at the scripture yous provided

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.


This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer

 Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.


Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.


Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul was a Hebrew scholar, not a Greek scholar. He studied under one of the greatest Hebrew teachers of His time. Paul spoke street Greek. The word "cloud", Paul used to express a fact of many people gathering into one body.

In Hebrews 12:1, they are gathering to run a foot race. When they run, the racers bunch up into a pack, This bunching of the runners, Paul calls a "cloud". "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

[truthbtold]

Pastor Roger

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"There are many scriptures that tell us there will indeed be a rapture. There is absolutely no doubt that it will happen. The only question and disagreement that a person might have is in when it will take place."

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What you all call a rapture,I choose to call it our gathering back to Christ,which will not happen until the 7th trump,the fact that you all can't even figure out when(pre mid or post should sound alarms we will go thru the tribulation,thats a fact,and if you think not please show where in scripture christians are gone before the trib