The Rapture is after the Mark of the Beast

[Soldier4Christ]

I don't get into discussions on when the rapture will take place as all to often people get overly irate over this subject. The important thing that we are told is to watch and wait, to be ready for His coming at all times. Jesus told us that no man will know when this time will be and it is therefore a waste of our time to argue this point. Instead of arguing over this we should be preaching the gospel and making strong Christians that are ready and steadfast in Him, ready to face whatever we must.

As for the word Rapture. It is in fact in the Bible when we look at the meaning of the word and the origin of it:

"Rapture" is a word of Latin origin, not Hebrew or Greek, the languages of the Bible. (The earliest translation of the Bible was into Latin, and the word rapture comes from there.) Its Greek equivalent is harpazo, which is found in the Greek text of 1 Thes. 4:17. When they're translated into English, both words mean "to be caught up, or snatched away." Harpazo, the word Paul actually used, comes from roots that mean, "to raise from the ground" and" take for oneself".

As for your cloud statement ... yes Paul does use it in such a manner as you said in Hebrews. Jesus does not use it in such a manner.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 14:62  And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

It is also used correctly as a cloud in the sky:

Mat 17:5  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luk 12:54  And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

It is quite evident that you have not thoroughly studied the scriptures. I believe that Brother Tom is right. I will not argue these points with you either. I will suggest though that you go back to the Bible without your preconceived ideas and do some further study, praying that God open your eyes to His message before you do.

[Shammu]

What you all call a rapture,I choose to call it our gathering back to Christ,which will not happen until the 7th trump,the fact that you all can't even figure out when(pre mid or post should sound alarms we will go thru the tribulation,thats a fact,and if you think not please show where in scripture christians are gone before the trib

I'll begin this post with a few verses which have Jesus speaking about where He will take us for the Tribulation period.......

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.


John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

There are many more verses, but now, let's get into the PRE-TRIB evidence...

The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation. Take a good look at the differences between the verses in scripture which describe the 2nd Coming, and the scriptures which describe the Rapture.

Once we see the two in relation to each other, we can be assured of the Rapture as being sound Biblical doctrine.

1) Rapture

Jesus coming for His Church/Bride up to Heaven, before tribulation.  Luke 21:36; John 14:1-3;     1 Thess 1:10, 4:14-17, 5:9;     Rev 3:10

1) The Return with the Saints

Jesus coming with His Church/Bride down from Heaven, after tribulation. Zech 14:5; Col 3:4; Rev 19:7-8,14, 21:9-10; Matt 24:29-31; Jud 1:14,15; 1Thess 3:13

2) Rapture

Caught up with Him in the air, in the clouds,  1Thess 4:13-18;

Appears to Believers only. Mat 5:8, John 11:40, Heb 9:28

2) The Return with the Saints

Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4; Rev 19:11-21, and he brings war, then peace.

Every eye will see him, including unbelievers. Rev 1:7, Zech 12:10, Mat 24:30 Luke 3:6 John 19:37

3) Rapture

Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind a shut door. Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1, 1Thess 4:13-18

3) The Return with the Saints

Wicked are taken first, Mat 13:28-30 the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left to populate the millennium

4) Rapture

Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father in Heaven, 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 19:6-9

4) The Return with the Saints

Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom on earth.  Zech 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

5) Rapture

Purpose: to cast satan out of heaven (Rev 12) down to the earth, which will reveal Satan for the Tribulation as the man of sin 2Thess 2

5) The Return with the Saints

Purpose:  to cast Satan to the bottomless pit, to bind Satan after the Tribulation. Rev 20:1-7

6) Rapture

Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, no war, globally.  1Cor 15:52

6) The Return with the Saints

Slow coming, at war, to specific locations, from Edom, to Bozrah, to Meggido or Armageddon, to Jerusalem. Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zech 12:9-10

7) Rapture

Christians are changed, and get spirit bodies, go to heaven and do not marry, and become immortal; Mat 22:30; 1Cor 15:52; 1John 3:2

7) The Return with the Saints

People populate the earth during the millennium; some people still die, not being changed to immortality as at the rapture. Isa 65:20

8) Rapture

Jesus descends with a shout (for resurrection) and trumpet noise. 1Thess 4:16

8) The Return with the Saints

No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

9) Rapture

A resurrection takes place of all saints to immortality, to rule as kings and priests in Heaven over Earth 1Cor 15:51-54; 1Thess 4:13-18

9) The Return with the Saints

Resurrection of the tribulation saints to immortality who worship day and night in the temple of God. Rev 7:15, Rev 20:4-6,

10) Rapture

Occurs as a thief in the night, at the 'no man knows the day or hour' festival of the Feast of Trumpets. Mat 24:43; 1Thess 5:4-6; Rev 3:3

10) The Return with the Saints

Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation; exact day predicted; 3.5 years or 1260 days after the abomination of desolation: Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

11) Rapture

Is likened to the abduction of the bride during the Jewish Wedding, and the union of the bride and groom, which occurs at the start of the 7-day bridal week. Gen 29:22-28, Judges 14:1-18

11) The Return with the Saints

Is likened to the marriage feast, which occurs after the 7-day bridal week, returning from the wedding.  Luke 12:36; Rev 19

12) Rapture

The dead in Christ rise and together with then living will be changed into their new bodies and leave Earth with Jesus. 1Thess 4:14-16

12) The Return with the Saints

Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21

13) Rapture

Jesus returns as a saviour from wrath Luke 21:36; Rom 5:9; 1Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10

13) The Return with the Saints

Jesus returns on a white horse, full of wrath. Rev 19:11

14) Rapture

For the Church only (those in Christ) 1Thess 4:14-17

14) The Return with the Saints

For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Mat 25:31-46; Rom 11:25-27

15) Rapture

A message of hope and comfort 1Thess 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1John 3:3 Just like the days of Noah and Lot, which show deliverance and salvation from judgement.  2 Peter 2:7-9, Mat 24:37-44

15) The Return with the Saints

A message of judgment and woe Joel 3:12-16; Amos 5:18; Mal 4:5; Rev 19:11-21 Like the plagues of Egypt, many of which are mirrored in Revelation, pouring out his Wrath, and He comes after the judgements.

[truthbtold]

Pastor Roger

Quote

"It is quite evident that you have not thoroughly studied the scriptures. I believe that Brother Tom is right. I will not argue these points with you either. I will suggest though that you go back to the Bible without your preconceived ideas and do some further study, praying that God open your eyes to His message before you do."

Reply

Oh but I have studied the scriptures,thats why I don't believe in a rapture.Contrary to what you all think Im not here to argue either all I did was state what I believe to be scriptual,.

No one will stand before God with me and Im more than ready to make that stand before Him based on what I believe


Dreamweaver

Lets look at John

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.

Quote

"If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation. Take a good look at the differences between the verses in scripture which describe the 2nd Coming, and the scriptures which describe the Rapture"

Reply

Herein lies the problem as to how I see scripture,people seem to think that the Day of the Lord and our gathering back to Christ(rapture)are different I hold the view that they are one and the same.

Quote

"The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together."

Reply

Question,where are the dead now?Once we die we instantly return to the Father,to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

Why do you think God has to remove His people in order to protect them,when the plaques fell on Egypt did God remove His people?No!He did not


I have read the scriptures you provided concerning the return with the saints and the rapture and I will go over them in my next post


First I would like to take a look at Matt 24

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

This is the subject of this chapter,when will you return.To me if there was to be a rapture this chapter would had been the perfect place to teach it,yet nowhere in this chapter was it taught

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

This is the number one warning, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Deception will be the foremost thing to guard against in the latter days, that will consummate the end of this age. This means that these events will not happen all at one time, but will take place over a period of time. These warnings or signs that Jesus is about to give us, are the seven seals that are given us in the Book of Revelation.

These are an exact overlay of the seven events, which are the seven seals that we should be watching for today

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Christ said for us to endure till the end,not raptured

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Up until this point in Matt I have not seen a rapture,yet in verse 21 we are told that there shall be tribulation

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

"Those days" are the days of this tribulation. If God did not shorten the time and reign of the Antichrist, no man in the flesh body would be spiritually saved, and not deceived by Satan the Antichrist. Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that this time of the Antichrist, the desolator, was one half of one week of years. That is one half of seven years, and it has been shortened to five [5] months.

Again I ask where is the rapture,if there was a rapture why would the days need to be shortened?

Ephesians 6 tells us the purpose that God's elect will be on earth, and it will be to fight against Satan, and those wicked spiritual powers. That is why you need the spiritual armor on and in place, for the warfare will be a spiritual battle, fought will words and ideas, it will be fought with the very word of God, for Satan will twist that Word, to make it a lie, when he and his forces use it against you.

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

This is saying that immediately after that tribulation of Satan, which is the Antichrist deception, Christ will be coming back to earth, and marks the second advent. There are two tribulations, and you had better know the difference.

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."


If Christ just told us that He was not returning until after the trib how can there be a rapture before?

[truthbtold]

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).

Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.

Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.

Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.

Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.

2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).

Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....

Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.

Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...

Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.

I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.

Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?

ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.

Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.

Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;

Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...

Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...

Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.

Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...

Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).

Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.

Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.

Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.

Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.

Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.

The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.

Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS


Just a few questions


Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO

Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.

Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION

[nChrist]

truthbtold,

Sadly, you are either the victim of a false teacher, or you have attempted to teach yourself and grossly misunderstand many things. OR, it could be both. Regardless, what you are proposing does not resemble the Holy Bible and is NOT taught in the Holy Bible.

As I have already told you, there are several detailed threads already on the forum that you can study and learn the truth. Nobody here is going to argue with you because arguing with you might make you even more confused. You really need to start over, disregard the false material you have, and change churches if you have a pastor teaching you this false material. I would also be very concerned about any other completely false things you are being taught. My biggest worry is that you are in a cult and aren't even saved. SO, I'll just ask you the most important questions there are:

1 - Is ALMIGHTY GOD a HOLY TRINITY - GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT - ALL BEING EQUAL AND ONE - THE ETERNAL CREATOR?

2 - Is JESUS CHRIST the SON OF GOD - VERY GOD - ALMIGHTY GOD - THE ETERNAL CREATOR?

(My Note:  If your answer to either of the above questions is "NO", you are lost and in a cult. If so, your first and most critical need is to learn about JESUS CHRIST, GOD'S Plan of Salvation, and accept JESUS CHRIST as your LORD and SAVIOUR. Studying anything else would be a complete waste of time, especially the more difficult portions of the Holy Bible. Many portions of the Holy Bible are spiritually discerned with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD who lives in the hearts of true believers. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD doesn't live in the hearts of the lost, and that's a HUGE reason why lost people have no chance to understand the Holy Bible.)

While I'm thinking about it, is there some reason why you have obtained another account under the name of "n2thelight"? A second account would be permitted for ANOTHER member of your household, but only one account is allowed per person.

Let's take care of the most important things first - YOUR SALVATION. Many cults and false religions teach that JESUS CHRIST was just a messenger, or just a teacher, or just a preacher, or a created being, or a created angel, or just anyone other than THE SON OF GOD - EQUAL AND ONE WITH THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT - ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF - THE ETERNAL CREATOR. SO, who do you think JESUS CHRIST is?

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 11:25 NASB  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

[truthbtold]

Hello black

Thanks for your concern,and I do appreciate it

I have absolutly no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I am indeed saved.

I study with Pastor Arnold Maury of the Shepherds Chapel,Nick Goggins at biblestudysite.com and Roger Christopherson at the season.org

To answer your questions yes Jesus is the son of God

Here is how I see the trinity

1st 'facet' or 'part' of the Trinity

God (Yehovah 'Elohim = The Lord God), is the Father, the One and Only God Eternal!  He whom created everything, He whom has no beginning and has no end.

Exod 3:13-15
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (KJV)

2nd facet of the Trinity

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Son (Yehoshua = Yehovah the Savior, or, God Savior), He is God manifested (came) in the flesh, He is God in human form come to earth to save His creation from satan and their sins.  Jesus is not another God, He is God.

John 10:27-30 (Jesus speaking)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

3rd facet of the Trinity

Holy Spirit (tó pneúma tó hágion = The Spirit The Holy = The Holy Spirit) is the Holy Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Power of God in action. It is through the Holy Spirit of God that God interacts with His creation today, for He no longer walks with man face to face as He did with Adam, Noah, Abraham....., and He no longer is physically amongst us as He was when Jesus Christ walked the earth.  This is because we (as a peoples) fell short, we forsook Him, we left Him — He didn't leave us!  Below we see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, God's Spirit; not a separate 'person' or individual apart from God:


Quote

" Many portions of the Holy Bible are spiritually discerned with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD who lives in the hearts of true believers. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD doesn't live in the hearts of the lost, and that's a HUGE reason why lost people have no chance to understand the Holy Bible.)"

Reply

Are you implying that Im lost? If so I assure you that I am not,but many of us who claim we are,I'll let Christ finish the rest,

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Now about my account I started with n2thelight first,but for some reason I could not get on,it kept sending me back to activate account after many times I decided to try a new one sent to my other account,so if you can will you please delete n2thelight


I know that Christ died for me and that the only way to the Father is through Him.

Again I thank you for your concern however as I have stated I am more than ready,can't wait to tell you the truth to stand before my Father

Now as far as that cult thing goes I feel that a cult is when you are not able to think for yourself,those three that I study with do nothing but incourage you to do just that and to not take their word for anything but to check it out in the Holy Bible which I do.

I grew up in the church and believed in the rapture among other things for most of my life,it wasnt until I did start to study for myself that I found out that what I had been taught just didnt add up.

Again I to do not wish to argue I just like to plant seeds and if one dosent have eyes to see I have no problem with it

[nChrist]

Hello truthbtold,

I'm happy to know that you are saved. Cults are most generally known for denying one or more deities of the God-Head, JESUS CHRIST being the most common one to deny. That's why I asked you about JESUS CHRIST. Denial of the Rapture many times goes with this because JESUS CHRIST is the one who catches the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST up to meet HIM in the air.

Denial of the Rapture is a very serious error, but not one of Salvation, so we can just agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

[nChrist]

~Daily Inspirational ~ THE CHURCH AND THE TRIBULATION OCT.2, 2006


THE CHURCH AND THE TRIBULATION
By Pastor Bob Hanna

A prominently held view among Christian believers states that the church, the Body of Christ, will be included in the tribulation - the time of Jacob's trouble. Our apostle says otherwise. Writing to members of the body, he declares, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of the Lord] shall not come except there come a falling away [literally, a departure] first, and that man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (ll Thessalonians 2:3,4).

Verse seven states, "He who now letteth [hindereth] will let [hinder] until he be taken out of the way." That which hinders is the church, the Body of Christ. The rapture will take us out of the way. "And then shall that Wicked [one] be revealed." This is the great deceiver whose being revealed begins the tribulation period. Hence the rapture precedes the tribulation, which means that the church will not go through the tribulation. Verses nine through twelve graphically describe the activities of the man of sin during the first half of the tribulation. By this time we, members of Christ's body, will be in heaven with our Lord and Savior "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thessalonians 4: 18 ).

Some of those who put the church in the tribulation say that we are present in the first 3.5 years. Others say that we will not be raptured until after the full seven years. Either way, there is no substantiation to be found in Scripture. One verification of the fact of the rapture preceding the tribulation: our apostle nowhere instructs or advises us re how we would cope with the conditions or how to survive accordingly.

Our apostle repeatedly assures us in this regard. "God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him"- (Romans 5:8,9). "For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thessalonians 5 :9).

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[gossa]

Hello all,

Firstly, I'm a believer on The Saviour Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins by His Blood shed upon His cross.

Paul used the word "gathering" (Greek episunagoge) in 2 Thess.2:1 for the gathering of the saints to Christ at His coming, so that is a valid usage per Scripture also. The idea of gathering to Christ is also used in Genesis 49:10, Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:32, Ephesians 1:10, and Mark 13:27.

The word Paul used for "caught up" in 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Cor.12 is indeed Greek 'harpazo', and it means to be siezed or snatched away. The word 'rapture' did come from the Latin translation of the nearest equivalent for 'harpazo'. (Notice I said nearest equivalent.)

What we are to be watching for is the "times and the seasons" our Lord Jesus and His prophets and Apostles gave us per Scritpure, as to Christ's coming. So it doesn't matter how many outside Biblical sources or opinions we refer to on this matter. What matters, is what the written Word says.

We are to be watching for Christ's coming, even though we cannot know the day or hour it will take place. Paul continued his discussion about the rapture or gathering to Christ in the next Thessalonians chapter.

The following Scripture sets the order of Christ's coming with the clouds.

1Thes 5:1-4
1   But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2   For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3   For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4   But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)

"The day of the Lord" happens with Christ's coming in the clouds "as a thief in the night". Per Paul, His coming is not to take us by surprise, "as a thief in the night". That event will only overtake those who are in "darkness". Paul says the Thessalonians are not in "darkness", that that day of the Lord should overtake them "as a thief in the night". Paul is saying he has no need to teach them about "the times and the seasons" of Christ's coming, for they already knew them.

2 Pet 3:10
10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

In that verse, Peter is putting 3 major events together at the same timing they occur. The "day of the Lord", Christ's coming "as a thief in the night", and "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" all occur together.

That elements melting with fervant heat at Christ's coming with the clouds is something to ponder. The latter part of Hebrews 12 also mentions that event, telling us how God will yet once more shake not the earth only, but heaven also. Hebrews 12 continues to tell us the reason for that great shaking will be to remove the things off of this earth that are made (man's works), so that only the things of God may remain. That's what the elements melting with fervant heat is about. It's about the removing of man's works off this earth.

Can the "great tribulation" happen on earth after that great melting event? Can the Antichrist and his evil works on earth during the tribulation make it through that kind of event? Not even. Since Peter placed that event of the elements melting with Christ coming "as a thief in the night", and "the day of the Lord", what does that show us about the order of our gathering to Christ?

May God bless.

[nChrist]

Hello Gossa,

WELCOME!

I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite.

I don't argue the Rapture any longer. There are many massive threads already on the forum that cover every conceivable argument.

I will give you a hint about your post and many others that deal with timing and events.

1 - At the Rapture, CHRIST does NOT come all the way down to the earth. The BODY OF CHRIST (His Church) is caught up to meet HIM in the air.

2 - At the Second Coming of CHRIST, CHRIST definitely comes all the way down to earth, and there are a sequence of events IMMEDIATELY followed by the 1,000 year Rule and Reign of JESUS CHRIST in Jerusalem from the Throne of David.

3 - So, there is a time gap you have to account for in Scripture. There's a lot of disagreement on timing and sequence, but many of them are really common sense. There won't be a New Heaven and a New Earth until after the 1,000 Year Rule and Reign of CHRIST. This should give you a hint that there is definitely a 1,000 year gap in portions of Scripture.

4 - If you couple Daniel's Prophecy into the mix, you will have a much better picture. First, Daniel knew nothing about the CHURCH which is the BODY OF CHRIST, and the Seven Year Tribulation Period was Determined against Israel, NOT THE CHURCH. The 70th Week of Daniel is the 7 year tribulation period. In terms of GOD'S plan, there was no definite period of time given for the 69th week, and that's the week we are living in now. The 69th Week is the Age of Grace, or Church Age as called by some. You should notice many portions of Scripture that clearly state that the Church which is the BODY of CHRIST was not formed for WRATH, rather for RESCUE AND SALVATION. The Work and Promises yet to be fulfilled in the Tribulation Period pertains to Israel, not the CHURCH. If you look closely at the Second Coming of Christ, there are heavenly hosts of armies following JESUS CHRIST, and guess who they are.

I typed this pretty quickly and I'm very tired, so I probably should not have tried so much tonight. Regardless, there are massive threads already on the forum with more details than anyone can study in years. But, I hopefully gave you some good starting points and things to think of. Some of the biggest ones concern Israel and they always have. One last hint: the 70th week is defined by Daniel as a week of years which is 7 years. There is no definition for the 69th week that we are living in now except a time "when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" as the end of the age. If you guessed that the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST is being talked about, you would be right.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 4:16 NASB  Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

[Josprel]

I also disagree with you, Christserf.  The Great Tribulation is the wrath of God descending upon the earth. According to 1 Thess. 5:9, "God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ . . . Wherefore comfort [literally: encourage] yourselves together, and edify [literally: help] one another. even as also ye do."  Believers certainly are not comforted by believing they must pass through the Great Tribulation.

Since the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God descended upon unbelieving humanity [read Rev. 6:15-17 to verify this] and believers have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ that they may escape the wrath of God, it is a misinterpretation of Scriptures to say that believers shall endure the Great Tribulation.

One more point: there appears to be a biblical principle that, before God's judgments commences, God first makes provision for the deliverance of his people. Now this is not to say that natural disasters do not also afflict believers; they do. According to the Bible, His rain falls upon the just and the unjust.  But God does make provisions for his people to escape the times when His judgments descend on mankind for their sins.  The angel of judgment informed  Lot that he and his family had to be safely out of Sodom before judgment fell on the city: Genesis 19:22, "Haste thee, escape there [to the city of Zoar]; for I cannot do anything until  thou be come there."

Noah and his family had to be safely in the Ark, with the door closed by God, Himself before the flood began. [Read the account in the Genesis, chapter seven.

Josprel


 

   

[nChrist]

Amen Josprel!

I was just thinking how wonderful it is for Christians to know that all of our hope and tomorrows rest in JESUS CHRIST. Not one of us deserves HIS MOST PRECIOUS AND PERFECT GIFT OF HIMSELF! Just being rescued from the curse of sin and death is cause for great joy, praise, and worship. BUT, this is really just the beginning of our New Life in JESUS CHRIST. There is a lengthy list of Promises given by GOD to us, and just thinking about a few of them every day should give us great joy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[dan p]

If we look at Rev3:5 can you say as a brother in Christ , that v 5 is talking about the Body of Christ ? It is talking about overcomers , won't blot out our name from the book of life. I am now in the Body of Christ and not waiting to be and overcomer. Second all of the book of Rev has to do with Jacob trouble,and the being tested , and only those who are loyal to their Messiah , will enter into the Mellennium per Matt 24 :13, will have to endure to the end of the Tribulation, v14 and they are preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. Rev 6: 9 is this the Body of Christ, v12 , does this remind you of Acts 2: 20 and the prophecy of Joel,  Rev 7: 4 144,000 Jews,  Rev 11: 8 is speaking of Jeruselem, and the whole book is Jewish. So I won't even give the first 3 CHAPTERS and that the church is seen there , because it is not.  There is one other  book that also speaks of the departure of the Body of Christ, and that is found in Gal 1:4 where the apostle Paul says we will be ( DELIVERED, RESCUED, OR PLUCK OUT ) depending on which word you want to use , means we will plucked out of this evil age.

[Shammu]

For those of you who don't know, I was a mid-rapture believer. One verse has changed my mind though, more then any other..............

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This alone tells us, Christ will protect us from the coming tribulation.

The m,id-tribulationism theory must either deny or at least weaken the dispensational interpretation of the Scriptures, and, deny the strict distinctions between Israel and the church. This is observed in that this position places the church in the first half of the last seven years of the period determined upon Daniel's people and city. The position must rest on a view of the tribulation that divides the period into two separate and unrelated halves, so that the church can go through the first half, even though it has no part in the last half.

The position must deny the doctrine of imminence, for all the signs of the first half of the week apply to the church. The position must deny the concept of the church as a mystery, so that the church age may overlap God's program with Israel. The position must depend, to a certain extent, on the spiritualizing method of interpretation. This is particularly evident in the explanation of the portions of Scripture dealing with the first half of the tribulation period.

One of the principal arguments of the mid-tribulationists is that the rapture will take place at the "last trump," which they identify with the seventh trumpet in Revelation. The mid-tribulationist views the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 and the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 as the same.

If the identification rests on the bare fact that in both passages we have last trumpets, then there is a problem. And I points out that if the seventh trumpet comes at the middle of the seventieth week, there is still another trumpet. It is the trumpet with which the angels call God's elect from the four winds after Christ's return (Matthew 24:31). On the other hand, if the identification is based on the fact that both trumpets are the last trumpet for the church, then I think the argument is dubious. There is no question that 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 deal with the church. The problem relates to the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. Here you have the final trumpet in a series of judgments. On what ground should this trumpet be taken as identical with the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52?

The seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 actually includes the seven vials (Revelations 16:1-21), and covers the rest of the seventieth week period. Included in the seventh trumpet, verses 15-19, is a "panorama of the rest of the book, future events being seen as already present."

Other arguments of mid-tribulationists include:

1. "the denial of imminence"
2. "the denial of the church as a mystery"
3. "the nature of the seals and trumpets" (the mid-trib view believes they "are not manifestations of divine wrath")
4. "the duration of the tribulation period" (the mid-trib view divides the week into two unrelated parts); and
5."the chronology of the book of Revelation" the mid-trib view sees Revelation 11:15-18 as the Rapture, and not the Revelation.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I just want to mention a few things to consider that are covered in much greater detail in numerous other threads on this same subject:

1 - The entire Tribulation Period, all 7 years, is a time of WRATH determined against Israel - not the CHURCH. This is regardless of the fact that the last half of the Tribulation Period is MUCH WORSE.

2 - The CHURCH was not formed for WRATH, rather for RESCUE, and the CHURCH has already accepted CHRIST as GOD and KING.

3 - There is no CONDEMNATION for those WHO ARE IN CHRIST, just JUDGMENT for the purposes of REWARDS that are over and above SALVATION. The ONLY PUNISHMENT that members of the CHURCH will face is LOSS OF REWARDS, and this will be determined at a UNIQUE JUDGMENT SEAT (BEMA SEAT) that ONLY THE CHURCH ATTENDS.

4 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: who will be the BRIDE OF THE LAMB? Also look at Ancient Jewish Marriage Customs that do APPLY in terms of Preparation of the BRIDE.

5 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: who are the heavenly hosts in the armies that will follow CHRIST into battle at HIS SECOND COMING?

6 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: think about the removal of the GREAT RESTRAINER and think about the absolute fact that the GREAT RESTRAINER is the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD and LIVES in the HEARTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH.

7 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: The individual members of the CHURCH have the SEAL WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT on their hearts. This HOLY SEAL can't be broken by any POWER - including the BEAST.

8 - Consider the specific and overall purposes of the Tribulation Period. Does the CHURCH have anything at all to do with these purposes?  NO.

9 - Some say that the CHURCH will suffer simply to witness to the lost. NO, the CHURCH has already suffered and died over centuries for this purpose. This PURPOSE will be fulfilled by other means, including 12,000 from each TRIBE OF ISRAEL - the 144,000.

10. The overall and specific purposes of the Tribulation Period is Israel, the rejecting Nations, a series of JUDGMENTS against EVIL, PURIFICATION of Israel, and finally SALVATION AND RESTORATION of Israel.

There are highly detailed debates of this issue already on the forum, so I didn't offer this information for debate - just thought. Christians have been persecuted and martyred throughout history, and it's clear that the Tribulation Period was determined against REJECTING ISRAEL - NOT THE CHURCH. The individual members of THE CHURCH are already IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. The BODY OF CHRIST has already been delivered from the WRATH to come. Each MEMBER already belongs to CHRIST, and no power can PLUCK them out of HIS HANDS. The BODY OF CHRIST has already been rescued from the CURSE OF SIN AND DEATH, and the SECOND DEATH has no power OVER THE BODY OF CHRIST. The MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST already have ETERNAL LIFE in and through CHRIST HIMSELF as a PROMISE OF GOD.

Finally, remember that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WILL NOT BE JUDGED AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT! The BODY OF CHRIST has already been JUDGED as FREE FROM CONDEMNATION. The JUDGMENT that the individual members of the BODY OF CHRIST faces is FOR REWARDS OR LOSS OF REWARDS - NOT FOR CONDEMNATION! This is the reason why individual MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST are "absent from the body and present with the LORD" when they physically die. The JUDGMENT BY GOD has already been made that THE BODY OF CHRIST ALREADY BELONGS TO HIM! In fact, CHRIST'S CHURCH is already ONE WITH HIM FOR ETERNITY AND IS THE BRIDE OF CHRIST!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.