The Rapture is after the Mark of the Beast

[christserf]

This thread presents the doctrine that the Rapture will take place after the Mark of the Beast, commonly called the post-tribulation Rapture.

1Cr 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Rapture will not occur until the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelations. You can read about them sometime.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (i.e., pre-cede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise before the living are raptured.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

[Shammu]

I'm sorry christserf, but I will disagree with you on this. There is much more edivence for pretrib Rapture, then a posttrib Rapture.

One verse no one thinks of is, Revelation 3:7-11 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the Holy One, the True One, He Who has the key of David, Who opens and no one shall shut, Who shuts and no one shall open:  8 I know your [record of] works and what you are doing. See! I have set before you a door wide open which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept My Word and guarded My message and have not renounced or denied My name.  9 Take note! I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and learn and acknowledge that I have loved you.  10 Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance [have held fast the lesson of My patience with the [c]expectant endurance that I give you], I also will keep you [safe] from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth.  11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one may rob you and deprive you of your crown.

So this is why I disagree with you.

[christserf]

DreamWeaver:

I agree with the verse that you quoted entirely:  The Holy One will keep the church of Philidelphia safe from the hour of trial which is coming upon this world.  Are you applying this passage to all Christians?  If so, why?

And why would the church being kept safe require the Rapture?  Couldn't it just mean that He's going to show them a place in the wilderness where the forces of the Antichrist won't get them?

Have you found any problem with the logic that I used in the passages which I presented?

Christ's Serf

[Biff]

To the Dreamweaver.

You stand pretty firm on Rev. 3:10.  Yet who says that 3:10 refers to keeping us out of the Great Trib.?  Where does it say that in there???

Clear & Simple vs Complicated & Confused

You know, Dreamweaver, when I am comparing the Scriptures I find them all to be Clear and Simple just the way they are written. I like it when I let God interpret His own prophetic words for me, just like He says. How wonderfully refreshing it is to simply hear what God is saying, believe and lay hold of it! Don't you agree?

So why is it that you need to be a bulldozer driver, an engineer and a rocket scientist whenever someone else takes and "spiritualizes" the Scriptures to refer to a different time period ("pre-trib") or to mean something else other than what God has already said? They've made it the rule that every prophetic Scripture must be made to fit a certain event and visa versa.

Ever notice how everything is being constantly shifted around ("this Scripture doesn't mean that, or this one goes there, or these books don't apply to us but to the Jews, etc."). They call this, "rightly dividing"!? Note too how everything becomes so complicated and confusing as they take and force God's prophetic word into their belief and doctrine.

What they are doing is taking the word of God and by spiritualizing it they push it with their dozer off of the holy ground of Truth, build many bridges (i.e. "meanings") to try and get around the real meaning, and come up with a system so complicated that no one can figure it out. Know what I mean?

Let me give you 2 examples of what I mean when I say... "Clear" and "Simple":

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Paul says ... "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

and in Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus says... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Now to me THOSE are Very CLEAR and SIMPLE! As a Christian I really don't need anyone to interpret or spiritualize those things to me to understand EXACTLY what is being said. Do you? This is something I can trust and rest MY FAITH upon!

In 2 Thes. Paul is speaking of the coming (parousia) of Christ, and he is saying that that Day that we look forward to when Christ comes and we are all gathered together unto Him, is not going to occur until sometime AFTER the man of sin is revealed. "Let no man tell you otherwise", he is saying.

In Matthew 24 we hear Jesus saying that He will not return until immediately AFTER the great tribulation.
He also warns us, in Matthew 24:25, that He is telling us all these things ahead of time (before they occur) so that there will be no excuses for our not believeing Him.

My question is this, (and many in the pre trib. camp have heard it before) "Can anyone show me, without spiritualizing them in order to fit this or that, any CLEAR Scriptures that pertain to His coming / parousia / appearance / return BEFORE the Clear and Simple words that Paul and Jesus used above to warn us???"

2 questions really - can you show me where the "pre trib. doctrine" was a part of the church's faith BEFORE 1800???

Other Clear Scriptures that need no interpretation.... http://www.intergate.com/~subi/propbit2.htm#25

Thank you,

Biff

[Shammu]

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The first voice he heard as it were a trumpet was who?

Revelation 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The voice John first heard like a trumpet was the Lord Jesus Christ.

The seven letters to the seven churches of Revelation are Three fold.
First they were letters to the Seven real churches in those locations of that time period.
Second they are letters to the universal church of the age of Grace. They contain a message for each person who is Christian.
Third they represent the different time periods of the Church until the Rapture.

We are in the time period of two churches in the letters of Revelation now. Philidelphia is the true church of the age now.
Philidelphia will be Raptured. Laodicea is the false church of the age now. Laodicea will be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture to enter into the Tribulation as the whore of Revelation 17. Laodicea is a false Church that professes Christianity and Jesus but distorts the truth of the Gospel. They can not be digested into the body of Christ and must be vomited out.

The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God.

To the church of Philidelphia the Door is open.

Revelation 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Philidelphia is Raptured at the voice like a trumpet from Jesus in Revelation 4:1. Laodicea is vomited out and left behind.

Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The 24 Elders are the representatives of the Church Age. We are in the crowd after the Rapture and witness these events in the verses below. We are the redeemed!

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Jesus was giving the church of Philidelphia a warning. There is an imminence to the message. What Crown?

The message to Philidelphia is also the message Jesus has for the Church living on earth at the time of the Rapture. We have a crown offered but it can be stolen by men. This crown is not Salvation but a crown of reward. There is a special crown given to those who look forward to Jesus coming for them at the Rapture. For those who love his appearing. For those who believe and expect the imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from earth.

2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Many have tried to steal my Crown. Steal my hope of the imminate Return of the Lord to call us out of the world. To replace my hope with the Tribulation. To replace my Joy of hoping the Rapture is soon with dread that it might be in my life time. I protect my Crown like I was warned by Jesus to do.

I have placed my faith in God"s word for he promised me this: Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Will you receive your Crown? or will you be standing there empty handed smelling of smoke? Jesus could come at any moment. Theres nothing that must come first. The 70th week of Daniel CAN NOT begin until the Rapture has occured.

Hold on to your crown tight and be ready to meet the Lord in the air. Let no man steal your Crown!

 Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages

By the way, I also researched on Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages, on my own. As I came to my own conclusions, on whats there, I don't follow the doctrine of man Biff.  I also had no idea the doctrine of pre-trib before 1800, till you just brought it up.

[Biff]

My dear Dreamweaver,

[I re-read this, and must apologize for my snide remarks.  Even though I am debating you in this forum I want to do it in the right spirit.  You should also know that I was a confirmed pre tribber once myself, and know all the angles and what to look for.  That's why I say if "God Himself" didn't say it, then I do not want the theories of others to super-impose His word.  I hope you'll understand!]

Rev.4:1 ff  It isn't talking about the church at all but about "John"! - CLEAR AND SIMPLE!  (This is a typical pre trib teaching isn't it?  One where the pre tribber thinks they can throw out the rest of the book of Revelations, the Olivet Discourse and parts of Daniel as not applying to the them at all [because they claim they won't be here] but to the Jews instead.)

You say >>>The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God.<<<

I don't know about you but according to simple and clear revelation it says that there  are "7" true churches.  Count 'em!

As for Rev.3:10 and keeping His word where does it show a "pre trib rapture" anywhere in that sentence???
One example - look at how the Jews of old were kept safe during the plagues of Egypt?

I see that you like to use Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

I wonder if you hold Rev. 16:15  in the same way - 
"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."  - right after the sixth vial is poured out???

Or are you saying that there's a difference between His "coming quickly" and "coming as a thief"??

As Christians we are commanded to watch for His appearing!

To this you wrote >>>2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Amen!

However, are you willing to throw in these "appearing" Scriptures as well?? --

2 Timothy 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

(Or do you want to say that His appearing isn't also the same time that He sets up His visible kingdom on earth???  Also, John says that His appearing and His coming ("parousia") are one and the same) --

1 John 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


So with that let me ask you a very pertinent question, friend.
Who gave you your hope?  Who taught you "pre trib"?
 
If your hope is based on the return of an invisble (to the world) Christ 7 years before the end of the great trib. and mine is based on CLEAR AND SIMPLE SCRIPTURES like the Olivet Discourse, then how can we both have the same hope?  For the Scripture says that we are saved by hope - Rom.8:24 - better known as our Blessed Hope!

Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I can , by the Scriptures, assure everyone of that --

Revelation 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I also can, because I believe what "God" (not what "man") says, verify that --

Acts 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And that is - He will appear "Visible, in the flesh... full of power and glory!"

You have yet to show me anything clear.  What YOU SAY is clear is nothing more than "Surmising" and "Speculation" and "spiritualizing" the word based on your theory that everything MUST be made to conform with and fit that doctrine.

Until you are ready to accept the clear and simple word of God AS IS, I'm afraid we're both whistling dixie.

Biff

[Shammu]

I'm sorry but we are going to agree to disagree on this Biff. I don't have all the time I did before (to debate), as my work load at my Church has increased 6 fold.

[Pilgrim]

The Rapture of the Church has to take place before the mark of the beast because the antichrist cannot be revealed until the Church is raptured and the antichrist will be revealed before his mark is given to the world. Below is something I wrote years ago why I believe the church will be raptured before the antichrist is revealed.

 Here is why I believe the “Restrainer” of second Thess. 2 is the Holy Spirit.

First, we know the Restrainer is a person and not a force. According to verse 7 the restrainer is referred to as “He” two times. This also rules out the restrainer being a woman.

Second, the restrainer has to be powerful enough to restrain Satan who is the one who possesses  the “Son of perdition”. That eliminates man because the Scriptures teach that man is made lower than the angels which Satan was before the fall. Also Michael the arch angel did not fight Satan in his own strength when contending with him. Jude 1: 9 “Yet  Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”  Michael’s victory over Satan was by the power of the Lord and not by his own strength. When man has victory over Satan it is the same way through the power of the Lord (Rev. 12:11). The only power that is powerful enough to prevail against Satan and his kingdom is God.

Third, John 16 shows the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to earth with a special purpose which involves all true believers in the Lord Jesus.

John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.  8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:  9  Of sin, because they believe not on me;  10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;  11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.  15  All things that the Father hath are mine : therefore said I, that he shall take of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.”

Notice that Jesus had to depart in order that He could send us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the God head and therefore as God He is omnipresent which means He is everywhere. So how could Jesus send us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was already here? He sent the Holy Spirit in a new capacity with a different purpose, a new agenda you might say. What was this new agenda? According to the above verses it was to (1) “reprove the world of sin”, (2) “and of righteousness”, (3) “and of judgment”. All these things work in restraining lawlessness wouldn’t you agree? It is interesting to see how the Holy Spirit would carry out this mission. According to the above passage the Holy Spirit is being sent to the believers in Christ (after the cross) to carry out this new agenda. According to John 14 & 15 he will set up residence in the believers for all eternity. It is by indwelling believers in Christ Jesus that the Holy Spirit will carry out this new agenda. So in order for the Antichrist to be revealed the Holy Spirit will have to be removed in this capacity. If the Holy Spirit is removed in this capacity then those who are indwelt by Him for this purpose will have to be removed as well, that is why the rapture of the church has to take place before the Antichrist is revealed. The Holy Spirit as promised was sent in this new capacity in Acts two at Pentecost. Right away we see the Holy Spirit fulfilling this new function through the preaching of the apostles and the result was that thousands turned from their wicked ways unto the Lord. I would say this left quite a dent in the kingdom of Satan and restrained his influence quite effectively in the three thousand souls who were saved by the first message of Spirit filled apostles. Wouldn’t you agree?

Pilgrim

[nChrist]

Amen Pilgrim!

I agree completely and received a blessing from your post. This is a critical topic for those who like to study end of the Age of Grace events. As an example, we know that the devil can't break the SEAL WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT on the hearts of believers. I'm thinking about what a precious TRUTH this is. This is just one reason why no power can pluck us from the Mighty Hands of GOD.

I know that many Christians might disagree with us, but I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit of GOD is the "Restrainer". Thanks for a very nice study. I'll copy it and want to enjoy it in more depth later.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB  For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[asaph]

Hi guys, it's me again. I am glad we need not divide over this. Let me give you my take on the restrainer. I will let you know up front that I used to be pre trib but now an pre wrath. This is different than mid or post trib. Is'nt it wonderful that brethren can dwell together in unity in Christ and yet hold fifferent views and opinions of some issues!
I think the restrainer could be Michael the archangel. Yes, he does rely on the Lord for strength but that should not matter. The passage in 2 Thess. is Paul exhorting believers not to be deceived. When the lawless one is revealed to them then they will know that Christ's coming is eminent. Otherwise the passage make's no sense. The warning would not be neccessary if it was the Spirit and the Church that is taken out of the way. In that case the only ones left to be deceived would be the unbelievers. But Paul told the believers not to be decieved into thinking that they were in the day of the Lord. They could not be because Antichrist was not revealed to them yet. even then, they will be rescued from God's wrath (day of the Lord). It seems plain and simple to me. But who am I.
Now lets look at Michael for a moment.
Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up,[strongs 5975] the great prince which standeth[strongs 5975] for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was,  a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Michael stands for Daniel's people Israel. Who is the number one enemy of Israel? It is none other than Satan. Whether or not he needs to rely on the Lord to fight Satan is irrelavent. It is plain to see that Michael fights for Israel.
Now look at the word "stand" or "stand up". the Hebrew word is used twice in this verse.
The word is amad.

H5975
עמד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): - abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

Amad has several usages in the Old Testament: stand (by, fast, firm, still, up). when Israel at the time of entering into the promised land crossed the Jordan river at flood stage the Bible says that the river "stood up" (amad) in an heap. In another passage we read that the sun "stood still" (amad). There are others I could quote but you could do your own search too. Let it be said that in this verse in Dan 12:1 the first mention of amad could be translated "stand still". this would actually make sense out of the verse. You see Michael is already standing for Israel at the time of Daniel's writing, Why would he need to stand up when he is already standing up? But if he were to stand still and stop fighting, so as to allow great tribulation to begin, no longer restraining the Antichrist, then the verse makes perfect sense.
When does the great trib begin according to Jesus in Matthew 24? Let's read:

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The trib or trouble begins mid 70th week for Israel. Antichrist defiles the holy place mid week because Michael stands still.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.   

The time of trouble and the great tribulation are the same event. Michael will "amad" to initiate the great tribulation in the middle of the 70th week. He will cease to restrain and the lawless one will be revealed for who he truly is by sitting in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. Of course we Christians will not follow him nor take the mark. The Coming of Jesus will be emminent from that time on. When Christ does come he will send his angels gathering his elect. After this gathering, then the Day of the Lord begins.

now read the verse in Dan 12:1 with the change of "stand up" to "stand still".

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand [still], the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Read Paul in 2 Thess 2:

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
 
asaph  Hallelujah!
 

 

[nChrist]

Hello Brother Asaph!

Brother, it's great to hear from you and see you back on the forum. We've missed you.

I enjoy studying various views of Bible Prophecy and have copied your post for more detailed study later.

I still think that it should be possible for Brothers and Sisters in Christ to discuss various opinions about Bible Prophecy in calm, but we did have several failures in the past, so many of us rarely debate Bible Prophecy now. It isn't a Salvation issue, so it should never divide Brothers and Sisters in Christ. We had one new user not to long ago who stated that anyone who believes in the Rapture of the Church is a heretic, and that was his first post. He rejected them all (i.e. pre, mid, post, pre-wrath, etc.). Discussions like that with name calling don't make anyone happy except the devil.

We have had some lengthy and fascinating studies on Bible Prophecy, and the best ones involved everyone studying the various opinions and trying to stay calm at the same time.    This was impossible for some folks, and I understand how people can get sensitive about opinions formed with many years of study.

Maybe we can have another discussion some day and get everyone to agree up-front to remain civil to those with different opinions. In fact, I would consider talking about it now if there was enough interest.

Brother, it's great to have you back.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

[Amorus]

Well said Brother Tom!
I often wonder the real reason behind debating a subject.  Is it for ones own personal pride in the knowledge that they feel they have gained, or is it out of love and learning?  I know in my own family Biblical issues and debates have brought about anger, my own self included.  I try very hard, especially now, to take in all sides of an argument.  If my mind gets jumbled then it leads to prayer, which is a very good thing.  My family had a discussion on this very topic just this past Easter, and I was very blessed when we opened it with a prayer and a reminder that, no matter what our opinion on the rapture, we are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  I'm very interested in this subject but for some reason the Lord has placed on my heart to be in prayer, not about knowledge of the end times, but for those to believe in Him.  I'm doing the same, taking these points that are made here to study.  May we all be blessed by the Word of our Lord!  My interpretation will be made shortly.
-Am-

[asaph]

I revised my post so if you read this previously please read again.
Hi Tom
I have always appreciated your spirit. you reflect the grace of Christ. Gentle and tough is how I would describe you. Keep up the good work. Stay in the word and close to Jesus.
I have learned not to be dogmatic in "last things". But I feel I am pretty certain that the coming of the Lord is not in two phases but one. First we have the appearing of the lawless one who makes a covenant with many for 7 years. For three and a half years he will be very low keyed as to his true identity in order to establish credibility with the Jews and to strengthen his hold. I believe the elect will recognise him for who he is but most of the world will shrug off anything the true believers say.  But in the middle of the week he will show his true colors (abomination of desolation) and begin a huge persecution of both Jews and Christians. Jesus commanded those in Jerusalem to flee at that time for the obvious reason that his campain begins there. This persecution is called by Jesus  "great tribulation", not to be confused with the wrath of God. Christians are not subject to wrath but will receive deliverance at the initial part of Christ's parousia when he will send his angels to gather his elect from the 4 corners of the earth. This action cuts short those days of persecution of Antichrist. Except those days were shortened none would have been delivered, but for the elects sake those days are shortened. After this gathering or rapture, the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God includes the seven trumpets and the 7 vials or bowls. You will notice that it is not the seven years that are shortened but the persecution by antichrist. The wrath of God continues the seven years and even beyond. For in Daniel 12:11 it says and I quote: "  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
  1290 is 30 days beyond 1260. 1335 days is another 45 days beyond the 1290. So we see that there is an extention of time after the 3 and a half years concerning the wrath of God. I believe that the 30 days is the bowl judgement and the 45 days is the restoration period during which the sheep and goat separation of Matthew 25 takes place. They are blessed that come to the end of that period, according to Daniel.
I know this is moving way too fast for most  but may I recommend a book that will walk you through it with Bible to back it up? "The Sign" by the late Robert VanKampen. It's the easiest way I know to bring all the pieces together.
Following is a list of passages or verses that I base my interpretation.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth forever and ever.
Dan 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 

God Richly and I mean Richly bless you.

Love you all,

Keith Jones- asaph

[christserf]

Hello all,

Sorry I've been gone so long, and I don't even have time for a full post now, so I'll make a quick response to Pilgrim.

Pilgrim:

1)  In what way is my line of reasoning faulty as regards the Scriptures that I brought up?

2)  You've said that the Holy Spirit can be everywhere and yet not be performing in certain capacities.  If "the restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, couldn't the 2 Thess. passage simply be saying that the Holy Spirit will no longer restrain, even though he is still present?

Christ's Serf

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

So far, this has the beginnings of an interesting thread to study. We have various opinions, and we are still treating each other as members of the household of faith. This is the type of discussion that I enjoy. I would like to mention three major issues just for thought and discussion, and they will impact everything that has been said here so far in one way or another.

1.  Daniel's 70 Weeks were "determined against" Israel, not the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. The church which is the BODY OF CHRIST was a complete mystery to Daniel. So, please keep in mind that Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST are two different entities with some promises that apply to both and some that do NOT apply to both.

2.  All saved people reading this post right now were saved by Grace, and the Holy Spirit of God lives in their hearts RIGHT NOW. In fact, our hearts are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and no power in the universe can break that seal, certainly not the devil.

3.  Again, all saved people reading this post were saved by Grace, and winning a fight or dying in a fight with the devil was NOT part of GOD'S Plan of Salvation for this age of Grace. Note this carefully: Believers who take the mark of the beast in the Tribulation Period are damned for eternity. To be saved during the Tribulation Period, believers must reject the mark of the beast, endure to the end, be hunted, and even be beheaded to KEEP OR MAINTAIN SALVATION. Great hosts will do just that, and great hosts will be beheaded, but this is NOT a part of the Plan of Salvation for the Age of Grace.  Note this VERY CAREFULLY:  Regardless of how long I live, my heart will still be SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and GOD'S Plan of Salvation will NOT be changed for me. I've already been given the Promises of GOD, and my heart is SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT as a pledge of those promises.

Brothers and Sisters, put it together and see what you come up with. Regardless of what opinion you make, you already know that GOD can't lie, and GOD will never break a promise. It doesn't make any difference whether I live, I die, or what happens tomorrow in the world - my Citizenship is in Heaven, and I've already been QUICKENED into the BODY OF CHRIST FOREVER WITH JESUS! I simply say AMEN!  Brothers and Sisters, please don't mistake this as me meaning that I have anything other than the same Salvation you have. Now, try to mix this with the Tribulation Period and the mark of the beast to see what conclusion you make.

Before I forget, thanks for an interesting thread and some excellent material to study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 9:8 NASB  And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;