The Rapture is after the Mark of the Beast

[finney]

  Well.  You guys seem to be doing a pretty good job here of not sinking to name calling and such like.  I have a question about this; aren't we saved from wrath?
finney

[finney]

  I better qualify that post:  Romans 5:9, 1Thessalonians 1:10, 1Thessalonians 5:9.  That's three witnesses. There's more.  Now let's look here:  There are thirteen verses in the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ that mention wrath; one mentions the wrath of the devil, the other twelve pertain to the wrath of God, from which we are saved.  Just a thought.
finney

[nChrist]

Hello Finney,

I see that these are your first posts, so WELCOME!

We're happy to have you with us and hope that you enjoy Christians Unite.

People getting angry is one of the main reasons why I stopped debating issues. However, I still enjoy peaceful discussions with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. This thread is pretty nice, but we have had discussions in the past on this same issue that got pretty heated.

YES - I think that the WRATH of GOD is one of the keys to the sequence of events involving the RAPTURE of the CHURCH. There are many surrounding issues that are really quite beautiful - Salvation being the most beautiful. However, the RAPTURE of the CHURCH is a matter of great contention for some Christians. I do believe that the RAPTURE of the CHURCH is prior to the Tribulation Period, and I further believe that it could take place at any moment. I can easily have good fellowship with Christians who believe otherwise. The ones I have a problem with suggest that a Pre-Tribulation RAPTURE is a False and EVIL teaching. There isn't anything EVIL about this view, just as there is nothing EVIL about those believing in a Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation RAPTURE. A specific view about the timing and sequence of the RAPTURE is not a requirement for Salvation, so Brothers and Sisters in Christ should be able to discuss this matter in peace.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

[finney]

  Yes.  I'm from the "I don't care 'cause it don't make a difference" school myself.  I believe the evidence both internal and external (i.e. Jewish wedding festivities lasting seven days) point to the catching away to meet the Lord in the air occurring seven years previous to His return to set up His kingdom.  What one believes about this matter as far as timing goes doesn't seem to be as important as what one believes concerning the return of the Lord Jesus to this planet.  I can see people being Christians and disagreeing about the timing of an event; I can't see where one can deny His return and be so. 
  What do you think?  Can someone deny the physical return of Jesus Christ to this planet and be a Christian?  Does that call for a new thread?
  finney

[nChrist]

  Yes.  I'm from the "I don't care 'cause it don't make a difference" school myself.  I believe the evidence both internal and external (i.e. Jewish wedding festivities lasting seven days) point to the catching away to meet the Lord in the air occurring seven years previous to His return to set up His kingdom.  What one believes about this matter as far as timing goes doesn't seem to be as important as what one believes concerning the return of the Lord Jesus to this planet.  I can see people being Christians and disagreeing about the timing of an event; I can't see where one can deny His return and be so. 
  What do you think?  Can someone deny the physical return of Jesus Christ to this planet and be a Christian?  Does that call for a new thread?
  finney

Hello Finney,

I do care, and I have spent a great amount of time Searching the Scriptures on this issue over the years.

I have met some people who don't believe in a RAPTURE at all OR the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. NO, I really don't understand how they could be Christians and deny the Promises of GOD. I feel sorry for people stuck in cults and being taught by false teachers. As we all know, many are being deceived today. We've even had people deny that JESUS CHRIST is GOD and still profess themselves to be Christians. I think that the best answer to your question is I don't know how they could be saved, but ONLY GOD knows for sure. Some people are brainwashed with horrible teachings, and to say that they are confused is a gross understatement.

Finney, I think this thread is more than adequate to discuss these companion issues. Is it possible that there are some truly saved people in cults that completely deny major foundational issues? Maybe, but I wouldn't understand how in the cults that I'm thinking about. As an example, I have no idea how someone could be saved thinking that JESUS CHRIST is a created being, the brother of Lucifer - or that JESUS CHRIST was just a great man, messenger, or prophet. Some of these folks are so terribly confused that they doubt their own beliefs. In terms of their profession before men about what they believe, what they say would not equal Salvation. AND, many of the things they say are blasphemy and/or the WORST kind of false teaching! I've tried to help many, and I really don't think that I broke the hard shell of their brainwashing. However, we also have the promise of GOD that HIS WORD will never return void, so we might never know if that person accepted the LIVING CHRIST as SAVIOUR or not.

These are hard questions, and I'm glad that you asked them. I hope that others will also want to join in this discussion. I want to think about this some more, get some rest, and come back to this thread.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

[finney]

  I'm writing this on the fly, I've got to go to the hardware store. 
  Some things I'll write as a fishing expedition. Yes, I think things like this matter but I'm not always sure in what way they matter.  By that I mean do they matter as in position or do they matter in apprehension or do they matter in performance or a combination of those three and more or.... 
  I know this:  My Father is so anxious to save that He sent His only begotten, dearly beloved, perfect in loving obedience Son (let's talk about Him, instead) here as our sacrifice that He gave on our behalf even when we could care less.  Does it matter what we believe?  Yes!  Is who we believe more important or equally important?  Let me first ask a question before we attempt to come to grips with that:  Do you have perfect understanding?  Do you have perfect knowledge?  Are you saved? 

  When you were saved, did you have the same level of understanding that you have now?  Are you more saved now than then?

  I look forward to your posts, I don't get to talk to Christians very often (very seldom, actually).  May iron do to iron what iron does to iron.

  finney   

[nChrist]

Hello Finney,

I think that you've already hit the nail on the head and probably know what my answers are. I might have also said something confusing that I should have clarified further. Bible Study and Searching the Scriptures are important to me. This is what I meant when I said these things are important to me. Everything in GOD'S WORD is important.

I would hope that nearly all Christians share the same answers to your questions. Becoming born-again is obviously the most important issue there is in this short life. By the way, nobody here claims to be anywhere close to being a Bible Scholar or having the correct interpretation on everything. This is just one reason why we spend most of our time with foundational issues and Bible facts. This is also why there is more than one reasonable opinion about the timing and sequence of events regarding the RAPTURE and other complex subjects in the BIBLE. If it's in the BIBLE, it's worthy of study and effort. It's also interesting to discuss the more complex issues if it can be done without folks getting angry.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 1:14-17 NASB
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

[lltimbs]

God has always provided a way of escape for his elect. Like Noah was protected from the flood, and Lot from Sodom. The rapture is a reward for rediness. If your right with God your escape his wrath or tribulation. In Matt.-Jesus says find yourself worthy to escape a snare. Snare is a trap. The tribulation trap. Those who are not ready, so they have to go through the tribulation to be called worthy.Can you imagine hearing about the rapture all your life then all of a sudden your left behind. It's the snare that Jesus was refering to.

[lltimbs]

   I LOVE this phrase ... AMEN!!

             in His service.. Tina
[I agree with you totally. The mark of the beast is after the rapture. When all of the christians are gone that's when the antichrist will feel that he requires everyone to have a mark. The rapture is a reward for reddiness. Those who are ready won't have to endur God's wrath. As in the days of Noah, and Lot -God gave them a way out too. Why would you need to live a spirit filled life if we were all going to suffer in the end? What would be the point? In Matt. Jesus says pray that you may be worthy to escape the snare (trap) and God's wrath. The snare or trap is the tribulation trap. Not for the ones who leave but for the ones who miss the rapture. Lorrie

[finney]

  Question 1:  How do you get and then stay ready?  If it's by something you do, then your salvation from wrath is dependent upon you. 
  Question 2:  If you are made worthy by going through the tribulation (assuming you survive it), what then did the Lord Jesus die for? 


  1:  Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
  2:  Matthew 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

  finney

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

This subject is covered in great detail in numerous threads already on the forum. I want to give everyone studying this subject a couple of hints that will help you greatly.

First, We are currently living in the Age or Dispensation of Grace, as the Apostle Paul puts it. Many people also call it the CHURCH AGE because this is the time when the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST IS FORMED. This is a CHURCH not made by human hands and has JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF as the HEAD. For those who study a little bit deeper, this is a MYSTERY not made known to men of other ages. Daniel and the other Old Testament Prophets knew NOTHING about the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. In fact, the Twelve Apostles knew NOTHING about the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST until the Apostle Paul revealed it to them. Truly saved Christians of this Age of Grace have already been "quickened" (translated) into the BODY OF CHRIST and already have the Promises from GOD of Eternal Life. Further, truly saved Christians of this Age of Grace have hearts "SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD". "SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD" is distinctive because the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD is in us and LIVES in us. No power in the universe can break this HOLY SEAL, and no power can pluck us out of the MIGHTY HANDS OF GOD.

Second, this Dispensation of Grace is going to END, and the Seven Year Tribulation Period will begin. There is a big difference between people who are Saved in the Dispensation of Grace and those who are Saved during the Tribulation Period. Those Saved during the Tribulation Period are called Tribulation Saints, and great hosts of them will face beheading for failure to take the Mark of the Beast. Those who take the Mark of the Beast will be damned for Eternity.

Third, make a distinction between GOD'S Promises to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST and Israel. The two are NOT the same, and GOD made specific Promises to each that will be kept perfectly at HIS Appointed Time. I'm interested in the Promises that GOD made to Israel, but I'm in the BODY OF CHRIST. My Salvation is already SEALED AND SURE IN GOD'S PROMISES!

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O  DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

[david749]

I agree that the restrainer is Michael the archangel as described in Daniel Chp 12.  After He stands up (stands still).......and ends his protection over Israel........the time of Jacob's trouble will begin.  This naturally will not only affect Israel but all people on earth. 

After the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week, you will have a time of Satan's wrath as expressed through the man of evil, false prophet, and man.  After a period of time, God will shorten (or end) this time.......otherwise no flesh would be saved. 

The whole world will then go black for an unspecified period of time (6th Seal and Mt. 24).  The great ones of the earth will hide in fear in caves.  This is because they know that God's wrath is about to begin. 

God has not appointed us to wrath.......namely His wrath (7th Seal).

Just prior to God's wrath, the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm.  They will remain on the earth.  Then a great multitude from all nations will appear in heaven.  They can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands.  This is the "rapture."  Then God's wrath begins as described in the 7th Seal.  The 5th trumpet judgment by itself lasts 5 months. 


The Day of the Lord is much longer than a human 24 hour day........and is announced at the 6th Seal. 


"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"   (Rev. 6: 16-17)