abortion and homoperversion

[Ruth]

AMEN to that PR,

What I left out of my originall post was......do I think we should use legilation.......in this Ccountry......Yep.

things have gotten so far out of hand and too many don't realize that this country was founded by belief.

If I am not mistaken all ten of Gods commandments are represented in laws in our country....although some have become rather diluted lately.

We need to act as Christians, love them into the kingdom.......sometimes love is tough. Legislation is all some people will succome too and they will resent us for it. Love them all the same.

If we're using legislation to try to turn people into Christians, then we're failing miserably.  The Gospel is the only thing that can make Christians.  Legislation is law and law only condemns. 

Once again, I don't deny that Christianity may be good for the state if it's kept in it's pure form, but the state is bad for Christianity and the two shouldn't be mixed.  They are two very separate things, and if we start to confuse them, then statements like the ones made above come out.  Just because we have the power to make gays NOT get married, how is that going to further the kingdom of God?  Those gays that were prevented from being married sure aren't going to start loving Christianity anytime soon.  I'm not an advocate of homosexual marriage, but take our role as Christians and put ourselves in their shoes. 

[Rookieupgrade1]

Thats not what I said.

I said love them into the kingdom.

Legislation is to protect and guilde the unchurched

If everyone was a believer we would not need laws.

We can not hold non-believers accountable to the bible but we can support legislation that does

[Soldier4Christ]

The founding fathers did not try to make anyone Christian through legislation and no one here is advocating that either. To do other than what the founding fathers did (base laws on the Bible) is to give free reign of evil and to advocate a nation that is vile and doomed to die within a short time .

[Rookieupgrade1]

The founding fathers did not try to make anyone Christian through legislation and no one here is advocating that either. To do other than what the founding fathers did (base laws on the Bible) is to give free reign of evil and to advocate a nation that is vile and doomed to die within a short time .

Amen to that PR

[Shammu]

If I am not mistaken all ten of Gods commandments are represented in laws in our country....although some have become rather diluted lately.

Yup yup your right rookie.

In 1892 the United States was a Christian nation. The United States was founded a republic by Christians. Most of its citizens are Christians. One national song, My Country Tis of Thee identifies Jesus Christ as our king.

Historically, America's basic moral code has been The Ten Commandments. All ten, have been a part of our legal system here in North America for almost 400 years! America has enemies who know and understand The Ten Commandments and they use this information against us.

The founding fathers never intended a freedom that would give the individual unlimited license. The freedom our founding fathers aspired to was a freedom in the context of moral standards based on the principles taught in the Bible. It is a freedom that gives us the power to do what is good and right according to a moral standard. Such freedom enables the individual person to govern himself.

Recognizing the Ten Commandments publicly is a reminder to our society that God wants to be included in the affairs of this nation. The presence of the Ten Commandments provides an opportunity for people to think about God. Ultimately, the Ten Commandments displayed in public places has the potential to lead people to an awareness of their need for Jesus Christ.

The Ten Commandments are also part of our foundational heritage and much of our legal system is based on principles found in God's law.

“The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed... No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.” - Noah Webster

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.” - John Quincy Adams

“We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart. We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity… to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” - 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia

"In regards to this great Book (the Bible), I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it." - Abraham Lincoln

[Ruth]

Apparently there was a difference in opinion among the founding fathers:

Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence -

"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution"

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."

George Washington, the "father of our nation"

"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." As he told a Mennonite minister who sought refuge in the United States after the Revolution: "I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong...." He was, as John Bell pointed out in 1779, "a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another."

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

John Adams, one of the largest proponents of American Independence and the beginning of a new nation

"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and Dogmatism cannot confine it."

Benjamin Franklin, enough said

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, not so much to secure Religion itself, as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense"

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?"

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"...The adulterous connection of church and state."

--------------------------------------------------

Perhaps I don't agree with these men's outlook on Christianity, but I don't need to.  They're legislators, not clergy.  They run the government, not the church.  And these are two very separate entities.  My point is, these men simply did not believe a theocracy, or a "Christian nation," was a feasible idea.  Nor they many of them outright believe Christianity in the first place.  And these men are the ones responsible for getting America's government going. 

And there's a lot more where those quotes came from.

[Rookieupgrade1]

They were saying that the government has no place to dictate a religion to its people. They didn't say that it was bad to have one. They still founded the country and its laws on biblical principals.

Can't get away from fact.

We can get into misinterpretation though

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Rookie. This is a subject that I have done extensive research on. The founding fathers did agree and did call this a Christian Nation. They set up the laes in such a manner to avoid a theocracy in order to prevent one denomination (note denomination ) from controlling the gevernment in the manner that had been done in England. In the many quotes they used the word religion because that is what it was referred to at that time instead of denomination.

No matter how much a person wants to argue or debate a fact is a fact. The Library of Congress is full of the facts of our foundings history. There are many that want to twist and turn things all around in an attempt to remove Christianity from the history of the U.S. Most of those that do so are atheists. Any true Christian would not accept such mis-information unless they have been completely duped by bad history books and/or teachers or simply want to argue for the sake of arguing.

An excellant book on this subject is "Christianity and the American Commonwealth". It was published over 100 years ago before the secularists took God, the Bible and Christianity out of schools and out of the text books.

[nChrist]

Ruth Said:

Perhaps I don't agree with these men's outlook on Christianity, but I don't need to.  They're legislators, not clergy.  They run the government, not the church.  And these are two very separate entities.  My point is, these men simply did not believe a theocracy, or a "Christian nation," was a feasible idea.  Nor they many of them outright believe Christianity in the first place.  And these men are the ones responsible for getting America's government going.

Ruth,

I really don't know what point you're trying to make, but I would suspect it would be something along the lines of the ACLU. It can't be done with the history of America because the evidence is too overwhelming. The founding fathers lived what they intended, and folks like the ACLU can't deal with recorded history. As an example, Thomas Jefferson was also head over the D.C. schools when he served as President of the United States. One of his official acts for the schools was to make the Holy Bible and a Hymnal primary reading texts for the school. I might also mention that church services were being held in buildings used by Representatives, and the first printing of the Holy Bible in America was done by Congress. The standard practice of life that is recorded history clears up any misconceptions that can be made with various written material. The best example is the current and modern concept of "Separation of Church and State" which is a complete pack of lies and never did exist at all. It was manufactured by folks like the ACLU. The Constitution described a liberty, not a restriction. The only restriction that could be implied would be that the Federal Government could not make someone be a Baptist, a Methodist, etc., etc., etc. Most of the framers came from countries that could impose harsh penalties or death for not belonging to a certain religious organization or having a belief that was different from a certain religious organization. So, the Constitution actually does the opposite of what the ACLU has been preaching, and their lies are beginning to be forced back down their throats.

Some folks like the ACLU love to twist bits and pieces, but they can't handle American history, nor will they ever be able to. So, what point are you trying to make Ruth?

[airIam2worship]

I agree with your post for the most part, Gary. 

How can we as Christians show the love of Christ through politics?  We can't, really, it's all law.  Our goal here on Earth is to share Christ's love.  All we do by forcing a nation to act a certain way is turn millions of people off to such a "self-righeous, hateful" religion.  We are doing nothing good for Christianity by mixing it with politics.

Ruth I have a question for you; following is a Scripture from the Bible, I have several Bibles and they all have this Scripture;
 Ps 33:12 ¶ Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
(KJV) 
Does your Bible say that?
Nation = All the people, all citizens.

According to you quote "We are doing nothing good for Christianity by mixing it with politics."

In your honest opinion do you think this country is better off than it would be if God was allowed to reign in the hearts and minds of all it's citizens? As I type there are many anti-Christian groups, atheists, and false religions involved in politics that are given rights, while Christians are being persecuted, while God's Word is being banned from public places, while prayer is being banned, while the Name of Jesus is being banned. Any true Christian can honestly see that this country is in desperate need of the one and only True God.

Lu 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

 Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The above Scriptures were Jesus own Words, yet this is HIS command

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom and Sister Maria.

Not only do we have anti-Christian organizations trying to remove our Christian heritage from our country their is a mivement going on to remove it out of our various Churches. There is a falling away of the churches from the very word of God. Like a news article that DW just posted in the "News, Prophecy and other" thread where a church is changing with the times. God does not change and we are to follow him not the "times".

[airIam2worship]

Amen PR, times may change, people may change, principles may change, BUT GOD (again one of my favorite sayings, But GOD) does not change, He is the same yesterday and forever. If we are to be like Him we to must be the same. No flip-floping ..... only One Person I want to please, even if that means everyone else thinks I'm politically correct or incorrect.
There's only one Person I want to please all the time   

[Shammu]

Apparently there was a difference in opinion among the founding fathers:

Well we already know the preamble of the Constitution says, "We the People, of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

And what about the individual states? Lets take a look at their preamble.

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.
Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.
Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...
Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...
California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.
Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.
Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.
Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...
Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance .. Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.
Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.
Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...
Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.
Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... And imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...
Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction ..
Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.
Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:
Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.
Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .. Establish this Constitution .
Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ...
Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. Establish this Constitution.
Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution ...
New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty
New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.
North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those
North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...
Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common
Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ..
Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance
Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties .
Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...
Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to .enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ..
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI . Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other .
Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution
West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...
Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility
Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution.

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state Constitutions. One is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong.

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." - William Penn

[Rookieupgrade1]

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

 

[Kelly4Jesus]

After reading through these threads, I realize that, if I drank, I would be on my fifth drink by now. I got lost when it turned to step mother's sleeping with sons. I thought this was about homosexuality and abortion, but I got lost somewhere between NYC and Houston along the way.

Homosexuality is wrong. I have always said, even before being saved that, if God wanted us to sleep with the same sex, there wouldn't have been two. He didn't give us a woman and a man so we had a choice! He created us this way for a reason. I have two cousins--one is fully Gay, the other can't make up his mind and is Bisexual. I love the sinner but hate the sin, pure and simple. Even worse, they are wiccan to boot!

Abortion--presaved I believed in no one interfering on a woman choosing what would be best in her life. Post-saved (and after birthing 6 children, and one dying), I can't imagine anyone saying that the baby is not a life until the child is born. I watched the heartbeat at about 3 weeks on an ultrasound machine. A heartbeat means the child is living! The fact that she wasn't breathing air didn't matter. She was alive, plain and simple! God said THOU SHALT NOT MURDER--He didn't say, "However, there is one exception. You only have to worry about those that take in oxygen from the air".

It was just so much easier when we only had 10 laws, brought down by Moses after receiving them from God. What happened after that is a tragedy. If only this world still went by those 10 commandments, the world would not be in the state it is today.

Wishful thinking on my part..but exactly how I feel.

God Bless,
Kelly