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nChrist
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« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2006, 03:17:59 AM »

I'm quite aware that Scripture condemns homosexuality, but you'll have better luck witnessing to someone with homosexual tendencies by talking with him or her on a first hand basis than legislating him or her from Washington.

And that example is pretty much the core of what I'm trying to say:  forcing Christianity into politics is harming the Church because its true mission and purpose is disguised.  "Christianity" becomes some sort of hate-monging machine that insists its right without giving any good reason why.  And that is bad for the Church.  And if you can't see this, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt to leave the safety of these forums every once in awhile and talk to people that you would consider the "Biblical outcasts."  Without yelling or accusing or condeming, if possible. 

Beating a dead horse, maybe.  Or taking my point of view out for one last spin?  Either way, I'm grateful that you've all responded to thoughtfully and respectfully to my posts.  Thank you.



Hello Ruth,

You can write whatever you want about America, and it won't change over 200 years of history at all. The Holy Bible was a primary reading text in every classroom up into the 1900s, and children were taught to read with Bible verses. America was a Christian nation for a Christian people, and no amount of isolated quotes can change that. The failures of America started when America started changing course at about 1950.  Prior to this time, GOD was the core of everything, including politics and government. GOD is still a large part of everything, regardless of how hard the liberal left and groups like the ACLU have pushed. If anything, we are going back toward GOD now, not away from GOD. The price that we paid for trying to turn our back on GOD is statistically proven in every way that you can think of.

The attempt to show that America  was NOT a Christian nation for a Christian people is impossible. Prayer in every public event and Bibles in every classroom were just small examples of a massive history in GOD. After the founding of our country,  it was the law in most places that you had to be a Christian to hold public office, be a school teacher, etc., etc. It wasn't just a preference for Christians, rather a way of life. Church services were held in all public buildings, and all public buildings were dedicated to GOD. This is why there are prominent displays of the Ten Commandments, Bible Verses, and references to GOD on all older public buildings.

Christians don't apologize for what the Bible says and teaches. The Bible lists many sins, and most of them are and have been incorporated into our laws. It hasn't been that long ago that homosexual acts were a felony in every state of America, and the same is true for adultery and many other sins. The only thing that's unique about homosexual acts is the violators demanding acceptance for their sins. In fact, they are in effect standing up in the face of GOD saying I will be accepted in my sins, and I will keep doing them proudly. Well, this acceptance will never happen, regardless of what laws are passed. First and foremost, GOD will not accept NOTHING but repentance if they wish to be accepted by GOD. GOD won't accept any person without repentance, regardless of the sin. Standing up and proudly defying GOD is a one-way trip to the fires of hell. That's the plain and simple truth, and we don't do the homosexuals any favors by keeping the truth from them.

Knowledge of sin and the consequences of sin is the schoolmaster that makes us know that we are in desperate need of JESUS as Lord and Saviour. This applies to every human being, not just homosexuals. If anyone wishes to continue their wallowing in sin and darkness, their master is and will remain to be the devil. It's just this plain and simple, so lying to homosexuals is not doing them any favor, rather it's a great disservice to one who is facing the curse of sin and death to hell. Nobody can force them to repent and come out of the darkness, but we can and should tell them the truth. Every sinner can come out of the darkness, confess their sins, pray for forgiveness, and accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. A sinner can NOT be forgiven if they wish to remain in the darkness, continue in their sins, and remain a practicing _____________ (fill in the blank sin). This does not hint that Christians are perfect, but all Christians must express a desire for forgiveness and repentance. If one wishes to remain in the dark and continue in sin, they will do so without JESUS. It's really just that simple. Sin and the devil will be the master OR JESUS will be the MASTER. Each person gets to choose, and they can't choose both at the same time.


I won't play the "what if" game. The "what if" game is answered clearly in the Holy Bible. Any discussion about what society or any group of people will or won't accept or tolerate has nothing to do with the Holy Bible and GOD. What people or society accepts and tolerates means NOTHING in terms of Salvation and Eternal Life in JESUS CHRIST. So, the only logical thing to do is go to GOD'S WORD and GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Proverbs 24:19-20 NASB  Do not fret because of evildoers Or be envious of the wicked;  For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.
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« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2006, 05:21:59 AM »

I'm quite aware that Scripture condemns homosexuality, but you'll have better luck witnessing to someone with homosexual tendencies by talking with him or her on a first hand basis than legislating him or her from Washington.

And that example is pretty much the core of what I'm trying to say:  forcing Christianity into politics is harming the Church because its true mission and purpose is disguised.  "Christianity" becomes some sort of hate-monging machine that insists its right without giving any good reason why.  And that is bad for the Church.  And if you can't see this, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt to leave the safety of these forums every once in awhile and talk to people that you would consider the "Biblical outcasts."  Without yelling or accusing or condeming, if possible. 

Beating a dead horse, maybe.  Or taking my point of view out for one last spin?  Either way, I'm grateful that you've all responded to thoughtfully and respectfully to my posts.  Thank you.



Hello Ruth,

I never did apologize for the norms and values of our society in the 1950s and won't. In fact, the norms and values of our society held many plagues in check that we are experiencing now because those norms and values were discarded or crippled. A long list of plagues is the result (i.e. aids epidemic, massive crime rate increases, etc., etc., etc.). Just bluntly, there is always a heavy price for sin, and the erosion of morals also results in the erosion of the quality of life.

Ruth, you freely make assumptions about the Christians here, and those assumptions are wrong. First, you have no idea what the members here do for the LORD, so any conclusions you make are based on nothing. Second, the lowering of morals, norms, and values in society is destructive, not constructive. The proof of this is very easy to measure, and it has been measured in many ways. You appear to be advocating the further lowering of morals and values with the cop out that Christians should be quiet and let non-Christians set the morals and values for our society. [Well, here's a NEWS FLASH: Christians have the same rights as everyone else, and we will not sit down and be quiet. The liberal courts have taken away our rights, and those rights are being restored as we speak. The liberal courts are also responsible for the attempted destruction of the moral fiber of our society. They did a lot of harm, we are paying the price, and a lot of that harm will be undone. Christians won't feel any guilt at all in trying to restore what was lost or crippled.

Let's boil this down to the most simple terms. You and many others are really saying to Christians, "let the powers of darkness rule and Christians will sit down and be quiet." The answer to that is "NO!, we refuse!" There is no irony at all that Biblical morals and values lead to higher quality of life, safety, and peace for everyone. Getting away from Biblical morals and values leads to destruction, lower quality of life, danger, and strife for any society. History provides the proof for the entire existence of mankind.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 31:19 NASB  How great is Your goodness, Which You have stored up for those who fear You, Which You have wrought for those who take refuge in You, Before the sons of men!
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« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2006, 12:09:58 PM »

Very interesting debate  Shocked

Ruth, first I would like to say that I admire your enthusiasm to witness to "Biblical Outcasts" as well as your efforts to make your point.  I think, from my perspective, a lot of what you say here is speculation.  I will give you my reasons, take them or leave them, your choice.  The life that I live must be based on laws.  If a law is of man there is absolutely no grounds for the law which has been made.  What authority in my life does another man have over me? Why would I believe in a faith that has governed its laws, distinguished by the Lord himself, who is an absolute authority over me, and yet try to fit the laws of men in with this, try to live "on both sides of the fence."  If someone asks me why I think it wrong to commit murder I can simply reply with "That is what Jesus, my Lord and Savior, commanded.  What does the non-believer have to hold grounds on? Why would I want to put myself into a society that lives in a world created by the laws of men?  The answer is simple for me, I do not want to.  They hold no grounds for me and I personally feel that most of them are poison.  To me a walk with Jesus Christ is very personal.  Maybe to you or I Christ is not telling our spirit to hang a sign around our necks and preach on the corner, but can you say that he has not commanded those who do?  Do you know the plans that the Lord has for their lives?  Do you know all of the gifts that he has given to his servants?, to speculate what kind of lives the people on these forums live, to say that they live in the safety of such places, yet you do not know a single second of the lives of these people once the modem goes dead.  Maybe the Lord wants you to meet with people face to face on a first hand basis, to do the work that you are doing, but that might not be his role for the rest. In troubled thought I find myself in prayer, for the Lord to show me the way to work with other Christians, even if we differ in opinion, to serve Him and only Him.  But I do know that I will not sacrifice the laws of God to show the non-believers of the world that I can be compasionate or sympathetic to their causes.  The word of God is very clear.  If they can't see that a man nailed to a cross, pierced by a spear, spat on and beaten, who suffered for their sins (as well as mine) as compassion, well my agreeing with their laws will not help them.
I pray that your heart will be blessed and that you will continue to learn and continue to search for answers.
Peace to you all!
-Am-
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« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2006, 12:50:19 PM »

Amen Amorous. As a Christian I am an ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ. Christians have this authority given to them by the King of Kings, He is the one who was brutally beaten, tortures and crucified for our sins. I will not allow anyone, or anything to put itself above the Word of God, not in my life.
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« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2006, 01:02:54 PM »

Very eloquently spoken, Amorus and I must say AMEN!



There are laws in some countries right now that because God is not a part of the law of the governement the women are forced into prostitution by that government. There is another government that forces women to have abortions. I thank God for being in a nation that was founded on Biblical principles. When then nation turns from God, which it has been doing< it will be next to impossible to witness to others. Yes it will be done but at the risk of loosing ones life. What benefit is there in that? How many lost souls will be forever lost because they are not allowed to hear the word of God?

We as Christians must witness to the lost and we must fight to keep the laws that allow us to do so.

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« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2006, 01:17:31 PM »

Very eloquently spoken, Amorus and I must say AMEN!



There are laws in some countries right now that because God is not a part of the law of the governement the women are forced into prostitution by that government. There is another government that forces women to have abortions. I thank God for being in a nation that was founded on Biblical principles. When then nation turns from God, which it has been doing< it will be next to impossible to witness to others. Yes it will be done but at the risk of loosing ones life. What benefit is there in that? How many lost souls will be forever lost because they are not allowed to hear the word of God?

We as Christians must witness to the lost and we must fight to keep the laws that allow us to do so.



Amen Pastor Roger, that is the plain and simple truth


We as Christians must witness to the lost and we must fight to keep the laws that allow us to do so.


We as Christians must witness to the lost and we must fight to keep the laws that allow us to do so.

Very well said.
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« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2006, 01:22:56 PM »

Very eloquently spoken, Amorus and I must say AMEN!

Well I must praise God if it comes across that way for I do not have the gift of speech.  Often my thoughts get muddled together and I make sense to no one but myself.

John 15: 9 - 26  with special emphasis on 20 -26

Blessings!
-Am-
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« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2006, 01:28:40 PM »

Well I must praise God if it comes across that way for I do not have the gift of speech.  Often my thoughts get muddled together and I make sense to no one but myself.

John 15: 9 - 26  with special emphasis on 20 -26

Blessings!
-Am-

Then we will both be praising God for a well spoken/written statement.

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« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2006, 01:32:10 PM »

Make that a trio you two  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2006, 03:10:49 AM »

And that example is pretty much the core of what I'm trying to say:  forcing Christianity into politics is harming the Church because its true mission and purpose is disguised.  "Christianity" becomes some sort of hate-monging machine that insists its right without giving any good reason why.  And that is bad for the Church.  And if you can't see this, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt to leave the safety of these forums every once in awhile and talk to people that you would consider the "Biblical outcasts."  Without yelling or accusing or condeming, if possible. 

Badgering can be a good thing.

Proverbs 30:26 The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks;

Unless you’re up on your biology, you’re probably wondering, “What in the world is a coney?” I certainly was. After doing a little research, I discovered that a coney is a rock badger.

These little critters make their homes underneath rocks and in sides of mountains -- only venturing away from their rocky homes in the quest for food. While the badger stays within his home of rocks, he is safe from his natural predators. He stays close to home because he realizes his limitations. Badgers recognize that they do not have strength within themselves --- their strength lies in the rocks they call home.

Hmmm. If a coney can recognize his limitations, how much more should we?! We, like them, are feeble folk! If we venture too far away from our Rock , our Messiah -- we will become vulnerable, easy prey! But if we stay within the shelter of our Rock, we can rest in the security He provides!

The winds and storms of this world can shake us up a bit -- but they don’t sway the Rock! Let’s make sure our homes are built in the safest place there is -- on the Rock.
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« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2006, 05:32:38 AM »

Badgering can be a good thing.

Proverbs 30:26 The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks;

Unless you’re up on your biology, you’re probably wondering, “What in the world is a coney?” I certainly was. After doing a little research, I discovered that a coney is a rock badger.

These little critters make their homes underneath rocks and in sides of mountains -- only venturing away from their rocky homes in the quest for food. While the badger stays within his home of rocks, he is safe from his natural predators. He stays close to home because he realizes his limitations. Badgers recognize that they do not have strength within themselves --- their strength lies in the rocks they call home.

Hmmm. If a coney can recognize his limitations, how much more should we?! We, like them, are feeble folk! If we venture too far away from our Rock , our Messiah -- we will become vulnerable, easy prey! But if we stay within the shelter of our Rock, we can rest in the security He provides!

The winds and storms of this world can shake us up a bit -- but they don’t sway the Rock! Let’s make sure our homes are built in the safest place there is -- on the Rock.

I always like the scripture about building your house on a solid stone foundation, not a sand one MAT 7:24-27
I also read something one time that really stood out in my mind.  It stated that an amateur built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.   Shocked
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« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2006, 06:02:35 PM »

 Smiley  I think that homosexual marriage  is wrong because He, meaning God, shows us that this is sin, no matter how you look at it.  God shows us this in many ways.
When you read the Bible, you realize that God made marriage to be a sacred union between man and woman.
When we hear God talking about marriage or two being joined together He always refers to man and woman.  When He told people what to write in the Bible He gave many commands to the humans of the world.  He told children to honor their mother and father.  He could have said honor both of your mothers or both of your fathers.  But, He did not.  When we read Proverbs, we learn that a wife is to submit to her husband and a husband is to love his wife.  Now, again we know that God could have said wives submit to your wives or husbands love your husbands.  Even after that in Matthew He says that a man is to leave his mother and father and become one with his wife.  There are two very important things said here, first it says that a man is to leave his mother and father.  Not leave his mother and mother or father and father.  Next, it is said that he will leave his mother and father and become one with his wife.  Never once did God say that he will become one with his husband.
We are to follow Jesus’ example and I believe that means his parents.  So, we look at Joseph and Mary (they were Jesus’ parents) and they were man and woman-not homosexuals.  Then in the book of Ruth we find that there was a couple, named Boaz and Ruth.  They loved the Lord and were man and woman.  And again in Genesis we have Adam and Eve who may not have always pleased God, but they did keep the covenant of marriage and were man and wife.   
So in the third book in the bible called Leviticus chapter18:22 Gods says that man should not lay down with man.  Later in the same book in chapter 20, verse13 God says that if a man lies down with another man, he is to be put to death.  That tells us that he strongly hates homosexual marriages.  Though after that, thank you Lord, God sent His son.  This child lived to be 33 and had no faults.  Except this man was beaten, forced to carry a heavy cross up a huge hill, had nails pounded into his wrists, and God set the weight of the world’s sins on Him.  The Son of Man died a terrible, but God raised him to life.  Jesus willingly chose to suffer and give His life so that we would not have to go through that kind of death for our sins.  That means that the homosexuals should not be put to death for being a homosexual.  that is not saying that it is ok to be a homosexual and need Jesus in there life.  God should be the one who judges them and decides their fate in heaven or hell.   
    God gives us the two most important commandments: 1st is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.  The 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.  God shows us how to do this in spite of sin.  This is the whole of Christian salvation – God himself loves His children in spite of their sins.  He did this many times while He was in human flesh.  Just like with the woman at the well and the Pharisees and Sadducees.  He showed us many of examples of how to treat others.  He was angry from time to time but never hateful – even to those who were hateful to Him.  Further, Jesus states that sin is wrong no matter what it is.  One sin is just as bad as the others – all sin breaks the relationship between God and man.  From this, we understand that homosexuality is no worse that any other sin.  Even then God would never want us to be hateful to anyone, even homosexuals.
   Although gay marriages may be wrong, the way to help them realize that this is not to bash them, but to show them the light of Jesus by letting His light shine through us. 
I think that Homosexuality is wrong, I don't think that it is up to us to decide there punishment.  Cool
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« Reply #87 on: July 28, 2006, 03:54:58 PM »

according to the bible...a wack across the head now and then

Piusx if this is what you think, then maybe you need to return to the scriptures and see what is really said there!

There is none righteous, no not one, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d!
For the wages of sin is DEATH, but, the GIFT of G-d is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Because G-d is a righteous G-d we are all condemned to die!We deserve, and should be sent to hell!
The GOOD NEWS is that G-d is also a merciful G-d, and sent Jesus to be the propitiation(replacement
offering)for our sins. Thus we step out of the place of sinners doomed to die, and into the place of
a son that can come BOLDLY before the throne of grace to obtain help and mercy in time of need!

Too many people think that we are human beings having a spiritual experience, when in truth we are
spiritual beings having a human experience!

When we were in school we took tests, and either passed or failed them. Fortunately the test that G-d
gives us in our lifetime are never failed, we just have to keep taking the same tests over and over
again until we get it right! The good news to that is in James...if any man lack wisdom let him ask of G-d
who giveth to all man liberally...

No piusx we don't deserve a whack up side the head, we deserve to die! but mercy says that Jesus took our
place and let us live as sons of God instead of condemned people.
Praise him for his mercy, his grace, and his loving patience!

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

ravenloche
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if not you, who? if not now, when?
if not here, where? if it is to be it is up to me!
John 3:17 for he came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world thru him might be saved! Rom 8:1 there is therefore no con-
demnation to those who are in
christ Jesus...
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« Reply #88 on: August 01, 2006, 11:46:54 PM »

Amen Ravenloche!

None of us has anything to brag about except JESUS CHRIST!

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 2:1-2 NASB  Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
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« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2006, 10:27:39 PM »

homosexuality is wrong. The bible tells us this so many times, I lost count. However, God made the laws. God should do the judging and sentencing. We are told, by Jesus to love our neighbors are we love ourselves. He doesn't give exceptions to that rule. If I am correct, Jesus chose those that were "outcasts", judged and condemned by their fellow man but loved deeply by Jesus. God chose David, although David was a sinner, and continued to be this way. Yet, God loved Him dearly, even after David committed adultery, turned his back on God's word, and many other things that human beings do when we are overly sure of ourselves, or simply don't think before we act.

I don't see any homosexual changing. I am sorry if no one believes that. I have 2 cousins, not only homosexual but also wiccan. I come from Massachusetts, which has a large gay community (and now, legal gay marriage). I have spent much time in their communities, as I found them to be honest and good people. I don't condone or accept their behavior. I simply stand by my beliefs, my Christianity and I love my neighbor.

Many homosexuals were turned off of Christian churches, due to judgment and witnessing on a "bible thumping" basis. Although I do know homosexuals that follow the church and claim to be Christian, I also see none that are able to give up their orientation (oh, they might try, but they still have thoughts that lean back towards being homosexual). However, those that do follow the church and love Jesus do believe in being forgiven and saved. So, who am I to say they are wrong? Yes, I can quote the bible but, God is still the one and only Judge and Jury. I will leave it up to him and continue to just love them as Jesus told me to.

God Bless,
Kelly (Back to being prolific..throw pies, quick!)
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God Bless You Always!
In The Precious Love of Jesus,
Kelly
 
Psalm 62: 5 Find rest, O my soul, in God alone;  my hope comes from him.  6 He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
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