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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
282851 Posts in 27483 Topics by 3790 Members
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Author Topic: abortion and homoperversion  (Read 9498 times)
Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2006, 05:39:54 PM »

Separation of Church and State is a falicy of the secularists. It was not the full intention of the founding fathers for it to be carried to the extent that it is today. It is not a part of any of our nations laws or documents that this nation was founded on. There was an intent to keep the government out of a specified religion but not to keep religion out of the government.

Yes we should be sharing the Gospel and God's love with all people. This does not mean that we cannot have religion in government. After all the founding fathers did use the Bible as a reference for the laws that they set this nation up on. Not to force religion on it's people but rather for the moralistic basis of the Bible. If we are doing our part as Christians the laws of this nation will reflect it.

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To assume that politics and government must reflect God's laws and Gospel is not prudent.

Why is it not prudent? It is not prudent to withhold it from our laws as we have already seen in the history of this nation. When prayer and the Bible were taken out of our public schools is when this nations moral values started declining. To do otherwise is for them to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on us.



Phi 2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


Isa 58:2  Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.


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RKJ
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2006, 10:39:33 PM »

I agree there ought to be legal system that would efficiently keep a nation free within bounds.

If the system worked as it should be, there should be no crime at all in the world (agree, it is a broad and over statement these days!). 

God gave us laws.  Man could not comply to it.  we wanted only to stretch and pervert it the way we want it to be!
All the laws were fulfilled by Jesus.  Thus a nation without Jesus will not have the laws obeyed.  Hence, it is essential to give Jesus to every individual - not by pressure or persuasion, as pointed out rightly, but with love and leading witnessing life ourselves.

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nChrist
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2006, 11:29:08 AM »

Separation of Church and State.  To assume that politics and government must reflect God's laws and Gospel is not prudent.  Where is this advocated in the New Testament?  Our work as Christians is not to force our beliefs and ways on others through political means, but to share with them the Gospel and God's love. 

Hello Ruth,

I don't think that I've had a chance to welcome you, so WELCOME!


Ruth, the laws of many countries were said to have "Judeo-Christian" roots, but that's just another way of saying the roots of the law were from the Holy Bible. That is especially true for America. Many of the first laws were quoted Chapter and Verse from the Holy Bible.

The founders of America didn't make any secret of the fact that they were founding a Christian nation for a Christian people. Many of the laws we have today still have roots from the Holy Bible, and there is no apology for that. Many of the things mentioned in this thread were against the law just a few short years ago, and many people would be surprised to find out just how bluntly our society was based on the values and principles of the Holy Bible. As an example, unlawful cohabitation was a written law that addressed the relations of a man and woman NOT married. Different states had different names for this law, but it was the written law. By the way, homosexual acts were against the law in all states, and they still are in some states. Adultery was listed as a felony in most states, and it still is in some.

In short, Judeo-Christian values and principles formulated into law has served this country well since far before our Declaration of Independence from England. Some of these laws have been taken off the books in the last few decades, and the result was a drastic decline in our society that is easy to measure in many ways. It is a good thing for a nation to follow the things of GOD and the Holy Bible, NOT a bad thing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:8-10 NASB  But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2006, 01:13:28 PM »

this is a really tough topic...............

Vengince is mine ayith the Lord

Judge not lest ye be judged......


The bible says don't do it. So don't do it. We will not succeed in bringing these misdirected people to a relationship with God if we force things down their through.

Show them the saveing love of Christ, then when they accept and chose to follow him......they will turn from their perversions.

We all started there........"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

I was a dead sinner, so was my wife,  so were we all. Love will change their hearts, not government. To often we rely on the big brother to protect us. Is it really their job? most people are defiant to legilation. Not many are defiant of love.

Gary
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Gary


just doing my best to follow..........
Ruth
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2006, 06:45:43 PM »

I agree with your post for the most part, Gary. 

How can we as Christians show the love of Christ through politics?  We can't, really, it's all law.  Our goal here on Earth is to share Christ's love.  All we do by forcing a nation to act a certain way is turn millions of people off to such a "self-righeous, hateful" religion.  We are doing nothing good for Christianity by mixing it with politics.
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2006, 07:01:13 PM »

I agree with your post for the most part, Gary. 

How can we as Christians show the love of Christ through politics?  We can't, really, it's all law.  Our goal here on Earth is to share Christ's love.  All we do by forcing a nation to act a certain way is turn millions of people off to such a "self-righeous, hateful" religion.  We are doing nothing good for Christianity by mixing it with politics.

You need to study your Bible a whole lot more. God has been in politics from the very beginiing. He is the one that has chosen rulers. He is the one that has set out laws for His people. No they didn't abide by them just as many people don't abide by todays laws. That is a weakness of man but God still set them forth and He still does.

Are you saying that Christianity is a self-righteous, hateful religion? That is exactly what it sounds like you are saying. The only religion that is selfrighteous and hateful when mixed with politics is not Christianity. Christians are not doing anything good for anyone by allowing non-christians to rule the world. Instead we are allowing those that would torment and destroy people to rule the world.


If Christianity was not mixed into politics you would not be enjoying the freedoms that you do today. You would see a very hateful government such as China or those of the Muslim nations.

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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2006, 09:36:54 PM »

The words "self-righteous" and "hateful" were in quotes, much as they are now.  Which means I was quoting others.  I figured you would pick up on that.  I cannot count the conversations I've had with people who oppose the current evangelical regime and describe it in this manner.  It turns them off from Christianity. 

God was in politics in the Old Testament.  He set up the system for the Israelites.  We're in the New Testament era.  We have access to God through Christ, not through the nation of the state religion.  Jesus said precious little about politics (Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's).  Paul said that all rulers are put in place by God and we must submit to authority.  You don't see the early Christians running around picketing or or even complaining when they were being put to death by the government.  They weren't trying to invoke political change.  They saw that this world is nothing compared to our heavenly, and they concentrated on that instead of the powers of this world.  I believe that this should be our stance as well. 

We should always be trying to advance the Gospel.  I believe the current status of evangelical-republicanism in America is hurting this advancement.  Politics are not the place to be pushing our agenda.  No Gospel comes through, only law. 
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2006, 10:20:27 PM »

The Gospel was spread quite successfully man, many years while Christianity was a part of our government. The decay of America started when prayer and the Bible were taken out of schools and out of governemnt. This is a fact because the gospel reached many that did not go to church and the church did not go to them. Yes we need to reach out to these people in a way that was not done then. 

For a nation to be unGodly is for a nation to fail. In America we are that nation. We the people are the government at least for awhile yet.



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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2006, 10:31:24 PM »

I find it ironic that these "godly" rulers we have killed hundreds of innocent people in the past couple years.  I am not political activist, I claim neither the democrat nor the republican side.  I would consider myself a moderate if anything.  My primary responsibilty is to my God, not to the evangelical-republican party.

There have been HUGE mistakes when Church and State were mixed in the past:  are the Crusades ringing a bell?  Rulers and regimes have ALWAYS used God's Word out of context and brought misery onto scores of people.  To say we're doing any better in the modern day is ridiculous.  People are sinful and when we try to use God's Word to justify our political means and ends, we're taking God's name in vain, for one.  We're also just being silly.  God's Word isn't here to run a country successfully, because theocracy's don't work here.  God gave His Word to work salvation in the lives of all people.  These two focuses cannot be mingled. 
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2006, 10:54:38 PM »

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Ruth Said:

We should always be trying to advance the Gospel.  I believe the current status of evangelical-republicanism in America is hurting this advancement.  Politics are not the place to be pushing our agenda.  No Gospel comes through, only law.

Ruth, you sound like one of those far left folks who want Christians to sit down and be quiet. Let me guess, you're also against Christians holding public office. The decline of America started about 50 years ago, and the reason was the opposite of what you state. America started turning its back on GOD and has paid a horrible price in terms of just about everything bad you can think of (i.e. murder, suicide, violent crimes, and statistics across the board went off the charts). Too many Christians remained silent during this 50 years of rapid decline, and they know it. SO, nobody should count on Christians sitting down and being quiet. We will do the opposite.

Tom
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2006, 11:03:41 PM »

Ruth, you sound like one of those far left folks who want Christians to sit down and be quiet. Let me guess, you're also against Christians holding public office. The decline of America started about 50 years ago, and the reason was the opposite of what you state. America started turning its back on GOD and has paid a horrible price in terms of just about everything bad you can think of (i.e. murder, suicide, violent crimes, and statistics across the board went off the charts). Too many Christians remained silent during this 50 years of rapid decline, and they know it. SO, nobody should count on Christians sitting down and being quiet. We will do the opposite.

Tom

Have it your way.  May I remind you that actions speak louder than words...even extremely loud ones. 

Where Christianity in politics is good is one thing.  Whether or not the situation is good for Christianity is quite another.  And I'm more concerned about the Church. 
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2006, 11:17:11 PM »

When Christianity is taken out of politics the Church will have to go underground as it has in many countries. That is not "better for the Church" in any manner. It becomes harder if not impossible to spread the true Gospel of God.

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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2006, 11:21:46 PM »

Our God reigns!  I feel that He still makes and topples governments for His glory.  We may not comprehend why He would chose one candidate/party over another, or keep one nation under dictatorship.  It is He who makes evangelism flourish in a country and also, when necessary, allow the process to be confronted head on by satan.

Bottomline is that He does what He pleases to do.  He is the same yesterday, today and forever.  The God who made kings and nation still does - totally.

Our understanding of 'politics' is limited.  

Coming to the topic, a ploitical agenda works only after there is fear of God in the nation.  It is our duty to pray for the lost nation, that God will show mercy and continue to pour out His Spirit, resulting in changes starting in an individual and ending up in communities.  Not the other way round.
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2006, 11:47:04 PM »

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It is our duty to pray for the lost nation, that God will show mercy and continue to pour out His Spirit, resulting in changes starting in an individual and ending up in communities.

Amen RKJ. God is the same yesterday today and forever.
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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2006, 03:10:48 AM »

Ruth, if Christianity were removed from the affairs of the government (As it will be after the rapture), the world would be in a FAR worse state than it is today. In fact, IMHO, God is using US as the glue that holds this world together. As Christians, it's true that we have a responsibility toward the gospel. We need to spread it as effectively as we are humanly able.

But we also have a moral responsibility to care for our fellow man, and this responsibility means (More often than not) becoming involved with those in authority, IE, the government.
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For I am only human, not some hero of the faith/ I'm merely an example of God's mercy and His grace/ I keep my eyes on Jesus when my gains become a loss/ As I stumble to the cross. -Stumble, Timothy Mark
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