abortion and homoperversion

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen LittlePiigrim,

This has been proven historically many times. Christians not being involved in polotics is why the U.S. has become what it is today. A nation that is falling into moral decay. It wasn't until their liberties as a Christian were threatened time and time again that Christians finally started standing up again for what is right. If more Christians would stand up Christ and become involved in polotics we wouldn't have the aberrations that we see today.

[Ruth]

This is a little off-topic:  The rapture was mentioned a couple posts back.  This doctrine comes from taking Revelation and all the numbers/signs literally, correct? 

[Shammu]

This is a little off-topic:  The rapture was mentioned a couple posts back.  This doctrine comes from taking Revelation and all the numbers/signs literally, correct? 

Yes, look at Matthew 24:3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?

There are many more verses that go with this.

[Ruth]

If you take the entire book of Revelation literally, what do you make of these verses?

Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless."


According to this passage, only 144,000 get into heaven, they're male, and they're virgins.  But you're going to take it literally?

[Shammu]

If you take the entire book of Revelation literally, what do you make of these verses?

Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless."


According to this passage, only 144,000 get into heaven, they're male, and they're virgins.  But you're going to take it literally?

Yes I will take that literally.


Matthew 24:3 Jesus was asked, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" Jesus told his apostles to look for the following signs prior to his second coming and the end of the age.

Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and will mislead many."
Matthew 24:11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many."

In the last several years many have claimed to be the Messiah. Jim Jones and David Koresh are examples of these false christs as well as countless others who are not as newsworthy. These false prophets are a prelude to the ultimate false christ, the antichrist. Many New Age groups, some even NGO's working for the United Nations, are anxiously awaiting the antichrist, preparing the way for his acceptance as the head of the hierarchy of gods and the one who will usher in world peace.

Matthew 24:8-9 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name."

Christians are under attack throughout the world today. In the United States Christians still enjoy freedom to worship God without suffering much more than ridicule, hatred, or discrimination at work and school. However in many other countries such as China, Sudan, Africa, Saudi Arabia, Korea, Russia, and many Muslim nations, Christian suffer much greater persecution and often times death for their faith. During the tribulation this suffering will be worldwide and will continue even to the point of martyrdom. These first 5 signs will increase in intensity and severity as the tribulation approaches, much like the birth pangs or contractions of a pregnant woman worsen as the delivery time approaches.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."

This prophecy has already been fulfilled through television, radio, missionaries, the translation of the Bible into many languages, and the internet. People all over the world now hear the message of Christ from missionaries who have the means to travel the globe, and via technology that allows us to communicate with people on the other side of the world right from our own homes, churches and offices.

If you want, I could go on and on. All these Prophecies have come true. I take Prophecy literally, from the Bible. So the Bible is Literally to be taken Literally.

[Ruth]

Dreamweaver, please address the text I posted from Revelation.  I don't have a problem taking what Jesus said in Matthew as being literal.  But Revelation is a whole different book...it was a vision, number one.  Number two, almost all of the imagery from Revelation comes from the Old Testament.  Number three, a lot of the stuff Revelation addresses has already happened, for example, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., Nero's (and other emperors') persecution of Christians, etc...

Please tell me how only 144,000 people being redeemed, and them being male virgins, fits in with the rest of Scripture.  Thank you.

[Soldier4Christ]

Ruth, Why don't you tell us your position on it.

[Shammu]

What do you know of the end times Ruth?  If you take a look you will find the answer, by me many times on the forum. And as I said before, I will take it LITERALLY. You aren't reading my posts, just skimming them.

It reveals the people that he will kill. They have been chosen of God for this purpose. To be a witness to the Anti-Christ and the horrible people that serve him. The 144,000 are part of this group. The next seal is given as an answer to comfort their hearts and to let us know that this will not go unpunished. These people will include all of the righteous dead who are killed during the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

Revelations is also a Literal Text.

[Ruth]

I believe the vision in Revelation is largely indicative and representative.  

Regarding the verses I posted, 144,000 is the number of completeness (12, the number of the tribes, times 12,000, the number of the people from those tribes as listed in chapter 7...which also implies that they'd all have to be Jewish if taken literally).  All number of people in heaven is complete. The virginity of these 144,000 is their purity through Christ and their connection with God alone.  

The language of Revelation would have been very recognizable among the Jews and other Christians at the time when it was written, as well as understandable.  Like I said, almost all of the imagery is from the Old Testament.

If taken literally, these verses mean something drastically different.  Besides, from your viewpoint, Revelation 7:9 would contradict Revelation 14:1-5.  Revelation 7:9 reads:

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands..."  

So in this verse the saved cannot be numbered but in Revelation 14 they can?

So all the righteous dead in the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation are going to be male virgins?

[Ruth]

"With the Augsburg Confession (Art. XVII) we reject every type of millennialism, or Chiliasm, the opinions that Christ will return visibly to this earth a thousand years before the end of the world and establish a dominion of the Church over the world; or that before the end of the world the Church is to enjoy a season of special prosperity; or that before a general resurrection on Judgment Day a number of departed Christians or martyrs are to be raised again to reign in glory in this world; or that before the end of the world a universal conversion of the Jewish nation (of Israel according to the flesh) will take place.

Over against this, Scripture clearly teaches, and we teach accordingly, that the kingdom of Christ on earth will remain under the cross until the end of the world, Act 14:22; John 16:33; 18:36; Luke 9:23; 14:27; 17:20-37; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 12:28; Luke 18:8; that the second visible coming of the Lord will be His final advent, His coming to judge the quick and the dead, Matt. 24:29, 30; 25:31; 2 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:8; Heb. 9:26-28; that there will be but one resurrection of the dead, John 5:28; 6:39, 40; that the time of the Last Day is, and will remain, unknown, Matt. 24:42; 25:13; Mark 13:32, 37; Acts 1:7, which would not be the case if the Last Day were to come a thousand years after the beginning of a millennium; and that there will be no general conversion, a conversion en masse, of the Jewish nation, Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor. 3:14; Rom. 11:25; 1 Thess. 2:16.

According to these clear passages of Scripture we reject the whole of Millennialism, since it not only contradicts Scripture, but also engenders a false conception of the kingdom of Christ, turns the hope of Christians upon earthly goals, 1 Cor. 15:19; Col. 3:2, and leads them to look upon the Bible as an obscure book."

Would any of you care to explain to me exactly what the rapture is all about?  I think I know, but I want to make sure all my details are correct. 

[Soldier4Christ]

Would any of you care to explain to me exactly what the rapture is all about?  I think I know, but I want to make sure all my details are correct.

I hardly believe that. As is with most things that you have asked questions about on here I sincewrely think that you have already made a consensus of what you think it means and once someone posts an answer to yoour question then you are going to tell them that they are wrong and that it contradicts scriptures.

Since you are so knowledgeable on scriptures tell us what the following words mean and what their importance is to scripture and to this subject.

apokalupsis

harpazō

telos

[Ruth]

The words can be used in an apocalyptical fashion

akokalupsis (apokalupsis) - a certain disclosure of the truth, manifestation, or appearance
 ---- It can be used for "Revelation"

telos - a completion of something, moving towards the end.  Everything in creation moves toward the end which God intended it to.

harpazo - to seize, carry away, pluck snatch (interestingly used in John 10:20 - "My Father who has given them [His sheep] to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand"...His Father gave them to Him)


I never suggested that what is said in Revelation isn't truth, I've suggested that it is being interpreted wrongly. 

Will you tell me about the rapture now?  The chain of events, etc...

[Soldier4Christ]

Let me make it quick. I am on two different forums right now, babysitting grandkids and cooking diinner.

To answer you question simple and plain go to this thread:


http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=298.msg3551#msg3551

[Rookieupgrade1]

When Christianity is taken out of politics the Church will have to go underground as it has in many countries. That is not "better for the Church" in any manner. It becomes harder if not impossible to spread the true Gospel of God.

AMEN to that PR,

What I left out of my originall post was......do I think we should use legilation.......in this Ccountry......Yep.

things have gotten so far out of hand and too many don't realize that this country was founded by belief.

If I am not mistaken all ten of Gods commandments are represented in laws in our country....although some have become rather diluted lately.

We need to act as Christians, love them into the kingdom.......sometimes love is tough. Legislation is all some people will succome too and they will resent us for it. Love them all the same.

[Soldier4Christ]

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.



Yes all Ten Commandments are reflected in our founding laws starting before the articles of confederation and continuing into the Constitution. Even though there were some of our founding fathers that are questionable as to whether they were Christian or not all of them were of the understanding of the necessity to have laws based on the Biblical teachings and that any government that was to survive would need to stay in those precepts.


John Adams, 1798
Signing of the Constitution

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."


President Thomas Jefferson, 1781
Notes on the State of Virginia

"God who gave us Life gave us Liberty. And can the Liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these Liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

President James Madison

"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."