abortion and homoperversion

[Ruth]

Well, I’m back for part 2.  You didn’t think I’d leave forever, did you?  Finals week will do that to you

Ok, regarding “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord”:

Now tell me honestly, do you believe that this verse is actually referring to a system of politics and legislation, or the actual people who make up the nation?  I’d say the latter, and I think that would make more sense in Biblical context, if you read the rest of the verse:  “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance.”  This either refers to the Jewish nation (which WAS a theocracy, not meaning WE should be) or the new “nation” of all believers.  Since it’s an Old Testament verse, I’d lean towards the first.

Anyway, rules and laws can’t make any group of people the Lord’s.  Even if they’re forced to obey, their hearts will be even more resentful because they won’t understand.

Government can’t change the minds of people, unless it’s some sort of brain-washing, despotic government.  Therefore, I don’t really understand why you’re so insistent on having your policies apply to an entire country.  What would God rather see:  a group of people who are forced to follow his rules buy really hate him, or a group of people who gladly follow his laws out of joyful and loving obedience?  Once again, it’s the latter, but you’re gunning for the first option.  Which doesn’t make sense, because how can anybody know the full extent of God’s person through the law? 

And on the premise of America originally being a Christian nation…you must not have read a good deal of the quotes I posted earlier thoroughly, so I’ll repost a few and add some new ones.  I hope you take time to digest them:

James Madison:

“I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others.” (Letter Rev. Jasper Adams, Spring 1832).

“To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself” (Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811).”  [notice that word, “purity”)

Thomas Jefferson:

“The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).”

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes”

“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

“I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor.”

Thomas Jefferson was no Christian.  I’m sure you’re also aware of the fact that Jefferson fabricated his OWN version of the Bible, void of all references to miracles and strange supernatural happenings.

Treaty of Tripoli:

“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” (ratified during John Adams presidency)

John Adams:

It doesn’t sound as if Mr. Adams was so keen on enforcing Christian morals in legislation:  “We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”

Benjamin Franklin:

Think how great a proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc'd Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security."

Thomas Paine:

“As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith.”

“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most dishonorable belief against the character of the Divinity, the most destructive to morality and the peace and happiness of man, that ever was propagated since man began to exist.”

“…The adulterous connection of church and state.”

Politics, are by nature, shady, sneaky, and full of fabrications.  Maybe Christianity would do some good for politics, but WHY would you want to subject Christianity to such measures?  We cannot protect the Church from politics when they’re so closely related and involved.  If the two are combined, it benefits no one.  Government is for now.  Christianity is for eternity.  They are two different realms.  They operate on two different systems. 

Perhaps Christianity could do some good for government, but not without losing some of its integrity, doctrine, and energy.  Evangelicals are so concerned about turning America into a “Christian” nation again that they’re forgetting about the Americans.  I see “Christians” picketing on college campuses with signs portraying dead fetuses.  I see “Christians” blowing up planned parenthood clinics.  I see “Christians” screaming hateful things at homosexuals and protesting against their marriages.  I see smug and self-righteous “Christians” on TV, in the newspaper, and especially in the Republican party.  What a good example of Christ’s love they are. 

Of course, I cannot convict all Evangelicals or all Republicans, because they are not all radical zealots.  But these are the things that happen when religion and politics get mixed, and its best just to leave them separate.  The Christian has a very serious job to do, and this is his sole responsibility. 

 "What little effort it takes - a friendly nod at a stranger on the street, giving change to the vagabond, saying hello or goodbye, opening doors, keeping our mouths shut. In the small things, the day-to-day gestures, the normal business of the day, we do the great work of the kingdom, which is to welcome each unlikely individual into the fold, one person at a time." – Sufjan Stevens

Why worry about whether or not homosexuals are getting married when there are people out there that need to hear the Gospel? 

[Soldier4Christ]

I see that you are still at it.

“Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance.”

If you have a nation that is the Lord's then you will have a government that is also of the Lord as that will follow especially so in a government such as the U.S.

Government can’t change the minds of people, unless it’s some sort of brain-washing, despotic government.

While they cannot change peoples minds they can pass laws that are in accordance to the Bible making for a more moralistic society. One that is condusive of raising children in that will be less likely to go the way of the world. It is quite obvious that when it is taught in the public schools that it is ok to do such things that more people become involved in sin than there were other wise. History speaks for itself in this aspect.

Why worry about whether or not homosexuals are getting married when there are people out there that need to hear the Gospel? 

Condoning such actions is unChristlike and it breeds more of such unChristlike attitudes.

If we allow a government to become completely without God we will have a nation like Sodom and Gommorah where very few are in the footsteps of Christ.

Take a look at the post #2 in the following link. It will show you the results of allowing a nation to take prayer and Bible reading out of its schools and government.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=9693.0

As I said history speaks for itself.

[airIam2worship]

Ruth, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you don't really know what you are talking about.

Well, I’m back for part 2.  You didn’t think I’d leave forever, did you? 

I can see you take real pleasure in beating a dead horse.



[/quote]

Why worry about whether or not homosexuals are getting married when there are people out there that need to hear the Gospel? 

Ruth, In case you didn't know God condemns homosexuality, how would you teach someone the Gospel and leave out those topics that Jesus Himself, chose to teach.

[Shammu]

I can see you take real pleasure in beating a dead horse.

[Ruth]

I'm quite aware that Scripture condemns homosexuality, but you'll have better luck witnessing to someone with homosexual tendencies by talking with him or her on a first hand basis than legislating him or her from Washington.

And that example is pretty much the core of what I'm trying to say:  forcing Christianity into politics is harming the Church because its true mission and purpose is disguised.  "Christianity" becomes some sort of hate-monging machine that insists its right without giving any good reason why.  And that is bad for the Church.  And if you can't see this, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt to leave the safety of these forums every once in awhile and talk to people that you would consider the "Biblical outcasts."  Without yelling or accusing or condeming, if possible. 

Beating a dead horse, maybe.  Or taking my point of view out for one last spin?  Either way, I'm grateful that you've all responded to thoughtfully and respectfully to my posts.  Thank you.

[airIam2worship]

Your welcome Ruth, but as a Christian, I will not allow myself to be put in a box and stored on a shelf.
I honestly believe that you are trying to just sweep Christianity into a corner this political correctness or incorrectness does not phase me in the least, as a Christian I have an obligation and if that means that I have to do whatever I have to do to preserve the right to freedom of religion, than as a voting, tax paying, law abiding citizen, I will make my viewpoints known to the courts to congress and to any other Federal agency.

[Shammu]

Your welcome Ruth, but as a Christian, I will not allow myself to be put in a box and stored on a shelf.
I honestly believe that you are trying to just sweep Christianity into a corner this political correctness or incorrectness does not phase me in the least, as a Christian I have an obligation and if that means that I have to do whatever I have to do to preserve the right to freedom of religion, than as a voting, tax paying, law abiding citizen, I will make my viewpoints known to the courts to congress and to any other Federal agency.

So sister, you are an old Fundy, like most of us here. Also known as politically inncorrect.

[Soldier4Christ]

Your welcome Ruth, but as a Christian, I will not allow myself to be put in a box and stored on a shelf.
I honestly believe that you are trying to just sweep Christianity into a corner this political correctness or incorrectness does not phase me in the least, as a Christian I have an obligation and if that means that I have to do whatever I have to do to preserve the right to freedom of religion, than as a voting, tax paying, law abiding citizen, I will make my viewpoints known to the courts to congress and to any other Federal agency.

AMEN!

[Soldier4Christ]

So sister, you are an old Fundy, like most of us here. Also known as politically inncorrect.

YEP.

 

[airIam2worship]

Yes DW, we are those who know that we can never get to talk to each and every homosexual one on one.

So I am an old fundy, a politically incorrect Christian, and I pray for our country, and I vote against those things I know are against God's Word, oh yes and I also leave the safety of this forum at least once a week to witness to the lost, to invite them to church, and to teach them about God's Word.

[Shammu]

Yes DW, we are those who know that we can never get to talk to each and every homosexual one on one.

So I am an old fundy, a politically incorrect Christian, and I pray for our country, and I vote against those things I know are against God's Word, oh yes and I also leave the safety of this forum at least once a week to witness to the lost, to invite them to church, and to teach them about God's Word.

AMEN!!

[Soldier4Christ]

Yes DW, we are those who know that we can never get to talk to each and every homosexual one on one.

So I am an old fundy, a politically incorrect Christian, and I pray for our country, and I vote against those things I know are against God's Word, oh yes and I also leave the safety of this forum at least once a week to witness to the lost, to invite them to church, and to teach them about God's Word.

Amen sister. To do other wise is telling them that it is ok for them to be whatever they desire and that they will be alright in doing so.

[Ruth]

My point isn't about political correctness.  The whole concept of being PC is silly to me.  That's not my point at all.  And I think you all know what my point is, but would rather not address it. 

Here it is, in a nutshell.  Have your way with it:

The Christian life is about witnessing and confessing Christ through our words and actions
If particular groups are focused on advancing Christian law in a governmental system where no gospel can be shown, the core of the Christian life is disguised, the wrong impression is given, and the focus is lost.
Therefore, many people will refuse to listen.

However, if Christians realized that making American "God's country" through law and legislation is a fruitless endeavor, and instead work on spreading Christ's love, peace, mercy, and true Gospel, there wouldn't be a need for this legislation.

Basically, let's hit the heart of the problem rather than just dealing with the aftermath.  And hitting the heart of the problem cannot be done with the government. 

Let it be known that I am in no way saying that Christians shouldn't let their beliefs influence their voting patterns.  I'm just saying when it comes to forcing those beliefs on other people's voting patterns, there's a slight problem.  Purity in the Church must be preserved before purity in the government.  And I see the church as losing a lot of its purity, as do a lot of people I've spoken to.  Suddenly, Christians appear self-righteous, self-serving, and  hypocritical.  It becomes a club.  What can we do to solve this?  It's not a matter of being prideful about political correctness or incorrectness, it's a matter of service, love, and truth.  And we ALL know there isn't much truth invovled with politics. 

Ok, that's all I've got.  I didn't mean to personally attack people here.  It comes off that way.  And I'm pretty positive I convinced no one, but hey...I have to give it a shot.  Thanks again. 

[Soldier4Christ]

You are right ..... you have convinced no one. The situation is not as simple as you make it out to be. As I have already said It requires much more. When washing a cup for it to be truly clean one must clean both the inside as well as the outside.


 

[airIam2worship]

 
 Suddenly, Christians appear self-righteous, self-serving, and  hypocritical.  It becomes a club. 
 

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.