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BLAD
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« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2006, 06:14:13 AM »


We Worship JESUS CHRIST Here as Lord and Saviour Forever!


AMEN brother.[color]

JESUS IS KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS.
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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2006, 01:24:06 PM »

Bible student,

If this king or kings that are mentioned in Daniel are nations (kingdoms) instead of individuals then why does it specify the word kingdom in those verses and separates it from the words king(s)?


Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


These kings that are spoken of in Daniel 7 and 8 will have nations that they are rulers over. This is quite clear. But the king is the ruler over those nations .......

Dan 8:20  The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21  And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Now explain to me how you understand that a king in these verses is a nation.





Pastor Roger,
I just don't believe that those scriptures have anything to do with a spacific ruler or king.
I simply believe that "kings" and "kingdoms" in these scriptures are in reference to the earthly kingdoms of God's people (Israel; the Israelites), verses the peoples and kingdoms of this world; ie, the Babylonians, the Medo Persians, the Grecians, the Romans.

Now...Daniel 7:23-26 is in direct reference to the present-day "European" kingdom, AND about present-day "Babylon" (the little horn) which came out of that kingdom.  (Dan.8:9,10)
It's all about the European peoples of Babylon, and the fact that they exalt and give their nation; Babylon over to another race, which, in the scriptures, is the ten-horned "beast".



 





  
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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2006, 01:38:46 PM »

Huh   Huh

Biblestudent, are you saying that the Christians on Christians Unite or any other group of Christians are worshiping the beast? It sounds like that's exactly what you are saying, so please expound on your statement and accusation.

Just for information, the beast hasn't been revealed yet. If you think that he has been revealed, who do you think he is and why? If you say JESUS CHRIST, that would be blasphemy, and you probably would get booted off the forum pretty quickly, RIGHTFULLY SO! In fact, I'm thinking this is exactly what you are about to state. If not, who do you think that we worship?

If you are here to preach islam or some other false religion that denies or mocks God the Father, God the Son (JESUS CHRIST), or God the Holy Spirit, you would need to read the forum rules and know that there is no pulpit here for false religions and false cults. The vast majority of Christian forums are the same in this regard or they wouldn't be Christian forums.

Another Link for the forum rules:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/rules.shtml

So, if you are here to preach about a religion that is contrary to Christianity, JESUS CHRIST, or the Holy Bible, you've wasted your time completely, and it won't be done here. A ton of folks have tried it, especially about islam, and you won't find a word about preaching or promoting false religions here.

We Worship JESUS CHRIST Here as Lord and Saviour Forever!

If you are here to preach or promote something different, it won't be done here.

Moderator

I've already stated several times that the ten-horned beast is a "race" of man as opposed to an individual.  Therefore, I don't know how you've come to those conclusions about me, and about my views.

If you're asking me to reveal whom I believe that race to be, I will not.  For doing so has gotten me booted off more christian message boards than the secular ones.
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2006, 05:12:16 PM »

I've been studying the Bible and prophecies of the end for some 30 years now, and I've yet to see the name "Antichrist" used in reference to the man of sin, or, son of perdition in the scriptures.

In fact, all the scriptures I've studied (primarily Daniel) tells me that the ten-horned beast, or, man of sin is not even an individual man, but rather a race, or, nationality of man.  In 9:26 they are referred to as "the people of the prince", or, the people of the devil.

Therefore, the big deception in these end times may well be the "Antichrist theory".

I'm well aware that the term "race" or "nationality" is not found in the scriptures, however, I truly believe that if God were to refer to a particular race of man in scriptures, He'd simply say, "a man".

That seems to be what the scripture in Rev.13:18 is stressing in reference to the man of sin. "Here is "wisdom".  Let him that hath "understanding........", the scripture says.

That scripture seems to scream out at us that we MUST understand the true meaning of the term, "a man" in this instance.


Hello my friend.
You quoted Dan 9:26 in order to show the reference is about "the people of the prince" and therefore not about a man.
You left out the very next verse Dan 9:27 ....
 Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The first verse describes satan's forces doing his bidding - In 70 A.D. Titus and his Roman forces attacked the city and destroyed the Temple. The following verse makes it clear that it is satan "he" who comes as a peace maker, only to break the deal after three and a half years. Unless you would have us believe that "he" is another reference to "nation".

Dan 9:27 describes satan "he" making a peace pact for seven years with "many" however, in the middle of that seven year peace deal, 'he' breaks the deal and begins to cause "the overspreading of abominations"

I can only hope that you are honest enough to admit where you are wrong, because my brother, you are wrong on this one.
You stated in another post that you have been tossed out of many other Christian web sites....have you even stopped to consider why you are right, and the many, many others who have disagreed with you are wrong? That should be a red flag.
If I were being challenged as to one or more of my beliefs by so many other Christians, I would be forced to reconsider my beliefs, and possibly conceed that I may have been wrong.

John
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 05:24:00 PM by Bronzesnake » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2006, 05:54:47 PM »

OK, I'll try not to argue, I'll try not to debate, and I'll try not to cause a disturbance.  I'll simply try to offer my thoughts and "show what I'm thinking".

The man of sin, or,  son of perdition as he's called in 11Thes.2 is the 10 horned "beast" of Rev.13, and of whom Babylon is serving/worshipping.

Translated, this I believe is the vision which John the Revelator saw in Rev.13.

1.  "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw "Babylon" rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns."  (Reference: Rev.17, which says that "Babylon" has the seven heads and ten horns.)  Thus, it is "Babylon" which John sees coming out of the sea in verse 1.  Question: Have you determined where modern day Babylon is?

3.  "And I saw one of Babylon's races of people; powerless and beaten down, as though they were wounded to death.  I saw their hurt healed, and I saw the world idolizing them."

4.  "And Babylon worshipped the devil which gave power unto the ten-horned beast; and they worshipped the ten-horned beast, saying, "Which other race of people is like them?!  Who is able to go against them?!"

5  "And the ten-horned beast spoke lies and blasphemies against Babylon, and power was given them to continue forty two months  (meaning 42 "years", perhaps?).

7  "And they were given power to wage war against Babylon, for they were given more power than all the other races within Babylon."

8  "And all on the earth idolized them, whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's book of life."

9  "If any man have an ear, let him understand this."

10  "He that leadeth into bondage to that race, shall go into bondage, and he that argues, must in turn be argued with.  Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

11  "And I saw the false prophet rise up out of that race; the ten-horned beast."

12  "And he took advantage of his power which was for the benefit of his people; the ten-horned beast.

13  "And he preached to Babylon."

14  "And he deceived Babylon by those things he was able to accomplish for his people; the ten-horned beast; saying to Babylon and the world, that they should make an image of his people; the ten-horned beast that was wounded."

15  "And he gave life unto his race of people; the ten-horned beast, and his people spoke, and caused Babylon to serve/worship them."

16  "And the ten-horned beast caused ALL of Babylon; both the small and great, the rich and the poor, the free and the bond, to receive their image, and to serve them either physically or mentally."

17  "And no other race within Babyon was able to "buy and sell" like the ten-horned beast."

18  "Here is wisdom.  Let him that hath understanding, consider this number: for it is the number of the ten-horned beast, and their number is 666."


I strongly suggest that you read the warning in Rev 22:18-19

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.


You posted your own personal bible, because God's is a lot different than yours. I guess that's what you have to do in order to even contemplate taking the Bible out of context as you have done. It is blasphemous my friend and you had better pray to God for forgiveness. Even if it is what you believe, we are warned to never mess around with His Words. That is a classic manoeuvre of a cult leader. It's what the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness did, and many other cults. You must reword God's Word, in order to trick and deceive others into accepting your own beliefs. It is a sin.

Here are God's Words...

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 


 Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 


 Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 


 Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 


 Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. 


 Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 


 Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 


 Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 


 Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 


 Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 


 Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 


 Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 


 Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 


 Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 


 Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 


 Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 


 Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 


 Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.



I will pray to our Holy Father that you are healed from the deception, which has blinded you to His Truth. That He will fill you with the True knowledge of His Word.

God Bless my friend.

John

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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2006, 06:42:36 PM »

Amen Bronzesnake.

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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2006, 01:07:06 AM »

Allow me to add my Amen BRNZ.
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2006, 06:35:34 AM »

I've already stated several times that the ten-horned beast is a "race" of man as opposed to an individual.  Therefore, I don't know how you've come to those conclusions about me, and about my views.

If you're asking me to reveal whom I believe that race to be, I will not.  For doing so has gotten me booted off more christian message boards than the secular ones.

Biblestudent,

This would be worse and even more silly. SO, you are now saying that Christians worship a race of men who are the Antichrist?HuhHuh? I don't know of any Christians who worship men at all, and certainly not a race of men either. Christians worship JESUS CHRIST, VERY GOD!

If you've already been banned from many Christian sites, I will assume that you have some unique and ODD-BALL beliefs that blaspheme God and/or make a mockery of the Holy Bible. Regardless, it would be moronic to say that Christians worship a race of men who are collectively the Antichrist. You would be talking about a cult that has no basis in reality or in the Holy Bible, and it would also be a strange, odd-ball cult. We also don't have any pulpits here for cults. I've also noticed that you never capitalize the word "Christian" which has a root word of "Christ". Usually that's because of a lack of respect. I don't capitalize devil or satan for that reason. Why is it that you don't capitalize "Christian"?


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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2006, 06:43:28 AM »

ANOTHER AMEN BRONZESNAKE!

Brother John, it sure is nice to read some posts from you. I love the Holy Bible as the final authority for everything, and that's what you use.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 116:12-13 NASB  What shall I render to the LORD For all His benefits toward me?  I shall lift up the cup of salvation And call upon the name of the LORD.
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« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2006, 12:45:30 PM »

Biblestudent,

This would be worse and even more silly. SO, you are now saying that Christians worship a race of men who are the Antichrist?HuhHuh? I don't know of any Christians who worship men at all, and certainly not a race of men either. Christians worship JESUS CHRIST, VERY GOD!

If you've already been banned from many Christian sites, I will assume that you have some unique and ODD-BALL beliefs that blaspheme God and/or make a mockery of the Holy Bible. Regardless, it would be moronic to say that Christians worship a race of men who are collectively the Antichrist. You would be talking about a cult that has no basis in reality or in the Holy Bible, and it would also be a strange, odd-ball cult. We also don't have any pulpits here for cults. I've also noticed that you never capitalize the word "Christian" which has a root word of "Christ". Usually that's because of a lack of respect. I don't capitalize devil or satan for that reason. Why is it that you don't capitalize "Christian"?


Moderator

Brother Tom!
You always have a way of plucking out the obvious, even though no one else had noticed it! Cheesy
That summery is right on the nail head, it really does boil down to that, what a great summery. I guess all those years on the force have given you a special ability to pull the horrible commonsence truth out of a whirlwind of nonsense! Cheesy

Nice job officer Tom!

John
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« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2006, 08:55:03 PM »

Biblestudent,

This would be worse and even more silly. SO, you are now saying that Christians worship a race of men who are the Antichrist?HuhHuh? I don't know of any Christians who worship men at all, and certainly not a race of men either. Christians worship JESUS CHRIST, VERY GOD!

If you've already been banned from many Christian sites, I will assume that you have some unique and ODD-BALL beliefs that blaspheme God and/or make a mockery of the Holy Bible. Regardless, it would be moronic to say that Christians worship a race of men who are collectively the Antichrist. You would be talking about a cult that has no basis in reality or in the Holy Bible, and it would also be a strange, odd-ball cult. We also don't have any pulpits here for cults. I've also noticed that you never capitalize the word "Christian" which has a root word of "Christ". Usually that's because of a lack of respect. I don't capitalize devil or satan for that reason. Why is it that you don't capitalize "Christian"?


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Revelation uses the word "worship" in reference to the beast, whereas Daniel constantly uses the word, "exalt".  So does 11Thes.2.
Romans 1 uses both terms, "worship" and "serve".
I prefer to use the term "exalt", OR "serve".

To answer your question; yes,  the churches in general have played a significant role in exalting the beast, especially in the past 5 years or so. OBVIOUSLY they do it ignorantly because they don't know that it's the beast they're exalting!
The Scripture doesn't say, "all except the Churches", it says "ALL"; both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond."
 
ALL institutions of Babylon do their part to exalt the beast in these last days!, particularly the schools and universities.  And, all branches of the Government as well.

P.S.  I didn't say that race of man is called "Antichrist".    The name "Antichrist" is not given to the beast, or, man of sin in Scriptures.....Not in Daniel, not in Revelation, not in 11Thes.2., or anywhere else.
Therefore, if it an't there, then it an't the beast's name!
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« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2006, 09:05:23 PM »

Just out of curiousity Biblestudent, you don't listen to Harold Camping and his ministry called Family Radio do you?
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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2006, 06:08:30 AM »

Just out of curiousity Biblestudent, you don't listen to Harold Camping and his ministry called Family Radio do you?

Never heard of him.
Look...., I don't base my beliefs and my interpretation of Bible prophecies upon others' interpretations and beliefs.  I base my beliefs and my interpretations upon the things I've witnessed in my 60 years of life, and according to how those things I've witnessed match the Scriptures.

And, I can say with all assurence and without reservation that, there is no world leader called "the Antichrist" who's coming to chop the heads off of those who don't worship him.  That's a "man-made" doctrine which commenced during the Reformation when the early Church Protestants first referred to the Pope as, "the Antichrist".  (And if you're wondering; no, I'm not Catholic, I'm Protestant.)

Revelation and Daniel, (the two main books we should look to in order to know what occurs during the end) is all about a mighty Christian nation which arises out of the European Impire.  It's about how, in the latter years the host turns that nation away from Christ and Christian principals, and commences to exalt (via their laws and otherwise) a race of man above themselves and above God.  This is that which 11Thes. says will occur during the years leading up to Christ's return.

That European people, and particularly the mighty nation spoken of in Rev. and Daniel, is the people of whom Paul refers in Romans 1 when he wrote, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an "image" made like to corruptible man.......and worshipped and served the creature (the beast) MORE than the Creator."
That image; that corruptible man (race) of whom Paul is speaking in Romans 1, is the very same race of man known as "the beast"  in Revelation 13.

 

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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2006, 09:56:53 AM »

Now, finally, the truth comes out. First of all I want to say that I agree with you part way in a small sense. If anyone upholds a nation higher than God then they are in serious trouble. As for myself and I believe that I am speaking for the majority of the people here on this forum when I say that we are thankful to GOD for being in a nation where, so far, we are able to openly worship Him without being thrown in jail or having our heads cut off.

That said I will also say that you are looking in the wrong direction. The beast is in fact an individual, an antichrist, that will have more than one nation, a whole bunch of antichrists, following him. The word antichrist was used long before the reformation as we can plainly see in the Bible. (1 John 2 :18, 22; 4 :3; 2 John 1 : 7)   It was used in the extant of anyone that comes up against Jesus Christ. The beast of Rev does just that, goes against Jesus Christ,  and will be the primary one to get others to do the same. Therefore he gets his discriptive name of antichrist.

Your teachings are one of the many false teachings of a false prophetess, E G White, as well as a number of other cults such as Islam. With such false teachings it is easy to see why you have been kicked out of so many Christian forums.

There is a greater force in the world than just people and nations. The greatest deceiver, satan himself, the greatest antichrist of all, will have a major portion in this battle soon to come.

When a person centers their eyes on people and nations, the physical aspects of the world, they overlook this. There are things happening today in this world that many people don't see even though it is right there in front of them. If you insist on looking at physical nations then look to the things that are happening today and ask who it is that is primarily against Jesus Christ and His teachings. Go to Ezekial 38 and 39, compare this to Daniel and Revelations. Before doing this ask the Lord to open your eyes, your understanding, to give you the wisdom to see what His word is telling you.


 
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« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2006, 11:11:54 AM »

Now, finally, the truth comes out. First of all I want to say that I agree with you part way in a small sense. If anyone upholds a nation higher than God then they are in serious trouble. As for myself and I believe that I am speaking for the majority of the people here on this forum when I say that we are thankful to GOD for being in a nation where, so far, we are able to openly worship Him without being thrown in jail or having our heads cut off.

That said I will also say that you are looking in the wrong direction. The beast is in fact an individual, an antichrist, that will have more than one nation, a whole bunch of antichrists, following him. The word antichrist was used long before the reformation as we can plainly see in the Bible. (1 John 2 :18, 22; 4 :3; 2 John 1 : 7)   It was used in the extant of anyone that comes up against Jesus Christ. The beast of Rev does just that, goes against Jesus Christ,  and will be the primary one to get others to do the same. Therefore he gets his discriptive name of antichrist.

Your teachings are one of the many false teachings of a false prophetess, E G White, as well as a number of other cults such as Islam. With such false teachings it is easy to see why you have been kicked out of so many Christian forums.

There is a greater force in the world than just people and nations. The greatest deceiver, satan himself, the greatest antichrist of all, will have a major portion in this battle soon to come.

When a person centers their eyes on people and nations, the physical aspects of the world, they overlook this. There are things happening today in this world that many people don't see even though it is right there in front of them. If you insist on looking at physical nations then look to the things that are happening today and ask who it is that is primarily against Jesus Christ and His teachings. Go to Ezekial 38 and 39, compare this to Daniel and Revelations. Before doing this ask the Lord to open your eyes, your understanding, to give you the wisdom to see what His word is telling you.


 

I see that you STILL do not understand what I'm saying.

Both Daniel and Revelation talks about a spacific "place" where the beast is exalted/worshipped in the latter years.

Paul refers to that place as "the temple of God" in 11Thes.2
Jesus refers to it as "the holy place" in Matt.24:15.

Daniel (the prophet of whom Jesus refers us) sees visions of that place from the time of its establishment, (represented by "the little horn" in his vision) to the time that it waxes great, into Babylon.  Notice:

Dan.8:9  "And out of one of them (out of one of the kingdoms; Impires) came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the "pleasant land".

10  "And it (the little horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; (the European Protestants)) and it cast down some of the host and of the stars (of the Christians amongst the host) to the ground, and stamped upon them."

11  "Yea, he (the little horn) magnified himself even to "the prince of the host" (to the ten-horned beast, the race which the host is worshipping/serving in the last days).......

The vision which John saw of that "place" was that of mighty Babylon after it had waxed great.  In other words, the way it is today.
It's the "host" of Babylon (the EUROPEAN race)  which is worshipping/serving that race of man known as "the beast" in Rev.13.

And yes, I agree! The African nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 plays a major role in end-time prophecies!!  Daniel, in 11:43 mentions them when he says, "the Etheopians" and "the Libyans" shall be at his (the little horn's) steps." 


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