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Shammu
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2006, 08:39:43 PM »

I've been studying the Bible and prophecies of the end for some 30 years now, and I've yet to see the name "Antichrist" used in reference to the man of sin, or, son of perdition in the scriptures.

In fact, all the scriptures I've studied (primarily Daniel) tells me that the ten-horned beast, or, man of sin is not even an individual man, but rather a race, or, nationality of man.  In 9:26 they are referred to as "the people of the prince", or, the people of the devil.

Therefore, the big deception in these end times may well be the "Antichrist theory".

I'm well aware that the term "race" or "nationality" is not found in the scriptures, however, I truly believe that if God were to refer to a particular race of man in scriptures, He'd simply say, "a man".

That seems to be what the scripture in Rev.13:18 is stressing in reference to the man of sin. "Here is "wisdom".  Let him that hath "understanding........", the scripture says.

That scripture seems to scream out at us that we MUST understand the true meaning of the term, "a man" in this instance.




Hello Biblestudent, and welcome to Christians Unite forums.

I have studied the Bible for 20 years and have never seen the word Bible used as well. There are several other words Christians use, that aren't in the Bible. Yet they are there just the same. The Trinity, named in the Bible, yet we all know the Trinity is real.

You say the word "Race" isn't used, yet.......

Genesis 19:32 (AMP) Come, let us make our father drunk with wine, and we will lie with him, so that we may preserve offspring (our race) through our father.

Esther 10:3 (AMP) For Mordecai the Jew was next to King Ahasuerus and great among the Jews, and was a favorite with the multitude of his brethren, for he sought the welfare of his people and spoke peace to his whole race.

Acts 7:13 (AMP) And on their second visit Joseph revealed himself to his brothers, and the family of Joseph became known to Pharaoh and his origin and race.

Also the word antichrist is used in the Bible.

1 John 2:18 (AMP) Boys (lads), it is the last time (hour, the end of this age). And as you have heard that the antichrist [he who will oppose Christ in the guise of Christ] is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, which confirms our belief that it is the final (the end) time.

1 John 2:18 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Therefore, I don't see a problem using the word antichrist. Could it be, that you may not catch the meaning of the word usage? This is not an insult, or attack upon you, Biblestudent. Just an slight oversight on your own studies.
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2006, 08:55:19 PM »

Amen DW.


Biblestudent,

I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. The time frame does not matter. It is what you get out of it that does. I have seen some very young students in the Bible that are very wise in it's ways.

Your comments in regards to the word "man" used in the Bible. Yes in some circumstances this word is used to refer to mankind and not just a single person. This difference is seen when taking the entire sentence in context. In Rev 13 : 18 when the entire verse is taken into consideration it is clearly seen that "a man" does refer to one individual, not many simply because of the word "a" placed in front of it. When the Bible uses the word man as in refering to mankind (many men) it does not use the word "a" in front of it. (As in Mat 4:4  "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.")

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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2006, 08:12:33 AM »

Amen DW.


Biblestudent,

I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. The time frame does not matter. It is what you get out of it that does. I have seen some very young students in the Bible that are very wise in it's ways.

Your comments in regards to the word "man" used in the Bible. Yes in some circumstances this word is used to refer to mankind and not just a single person. This difference is seen when taking the entire sentence in context. In Rev 13 : 18 when the entire verse is taken into consideration it is clearly seen that "a man" does refer to one individual, not many simply because of the word "a" placed in front of it. When the Bible uses the word man as in refering to mankind (many men) it does not use the word "a" in front of it. (As in Mat 4:4  "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.")


I disagree. I believe that "experience" gives an older person advantage over the young today when it comes to understanding prophecies of the end.

Now, in regards to the words "man" and "mankind" in scriptures:

"Mankind" is plural and is used to differenciate between the different types or races of man.

"Man", as in, "man shall not live by bread alone", is plural as well, but means, "all mankind".

Thus, "a" man in Rev.13:18 means, "a" particular "race" of mankind.

I believe that's what Rev.13:18 is trying to convey to us when it says, "Here is wisdom.  Let him that hath understanding".

Anyone, when they see "a man" written, automatically thinks that it's talking about an individual man, but verse 18 of Rev.13 suggests that "a man" in this verse does not mean an indivivual man, and that it takes a good deal of wisdom and understanding of scriptures to know what is being conveyed.

That wisdom and understanding comes from studying the book of Daniel, for Daniel explains thoroughly who the ten-horned beast, or, the man of sin is.  Without that knowledge and understanding of Daniel, one will continue to think that "a man" in Rev.13:18 means, an individual man.


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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2006, 08:21:59 AM »

Hello Biblestudent, and welcome to Christians Unite forums.

I have studied the Bible for 20 years and have never seen the word Bible used as well. There are several other words Christians use, that aren't in the Bible. Yet they are there just the same. The Trinity, named in the Bible, yet we all know the Trinity is real.

You say the word "Race" isn't used, yet.......

Genesis 19:32 (AMP) Come, let us make our father drunk with wine, and we will lie with him, so that we may preserve offspring (our race) through our father.

Esther 10:3 (AMP) For Mordecai the Jew was next to King Ahasuerus and great among the Jews, and was a favorite with the multitude of his brethren, for he sought the welfare of his people and spoke peace to his whole race.

Acts 7:13 (AMP) And on their second visit Joseph revealed himself to his brothers, and the family of Joseph became known to Pharaoh and his origin and race.

Also the word antichrist is used in the Bible.

1 John 2:18 (AMP) Boys (lads), it is the last time (hour, the end of this age). And as you have heard that the antichrist [he who will oppose Christ in the guise of Christ] is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, which confirms our belief that it is the final (the end) time.

1 John 2:18 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Therefore, I don't see a problem using the word antichrist. Could it be, that you may not catch the meaning of the word usage? This is not an insult, or attack upon you, Biblestudent. Just an slight oversight on your own studies.

But, the WORD "race" is not found in scriptures, and you haven't shown me that it is.  "Seed", "kindred", and other choice words, yes, but not "race". 

As well, you haven't shown me that the name "Antichrist" is used in reference to the ten-horned beast; man of sin in scriptures.
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2006, 10:11:16 AM »

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I disagree. I believe that "experience" gives an older person advantage over the young today when it comes to understanding prophecies of the end.

Then you are disagreeing with the word of God, not me. Wisdom and understanding does not come from a book but from God Himself.

1Ch 22:12  Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

Pro 2:6  For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Ti 4:12  Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

There are many a young person that are much wiser in the ways of the Lord than are those that are older.


Rev 13:18 does not suggest any such thing as you say it does. The Bible frequently uses "a man" in describing an individual.

Mat 8:9  For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

Mat 9:2  And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mat 9:9  And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Also the verse in Rev 13:18 goes on to say that "his number is" not their number is.

As for the useage of the word of "antichrist" your argument is moot. The Bible specifically tells us that anyone that goes up against Jesus Christ is an antichrist whether it be one person or whether it be many.

1Jo 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This verse also shows that Rev 13:18 is speaking of one man not many.


The horn spoken of in Daniel is an individual. It explicitly states that it is someone that is in dominion over others.


Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Dan 8:21  And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

So we see here that when a horn is mentioned in Daniel it is speaking of a king of a certain nation, not the nation itself.

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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2006, 11:43:37 AM »

Hello Biblestudent,

First, I see that you are new, so WELCOME!!


Bible Prophecy is a lengthy and difficult study. You won't understand it unless you leave the Scriptures in context, follow the references and comparisons, and wait for the Holy Spirit to help you develop the big picture. Failure to do this results in your own confusion and you being deceived. You really must look at a chain of events before you attempt to understand one event in the chain. It's also useful many times to work backward from a main event to understand the events leading up to it. As an example, the Antichrist is the devil in the main event, and this will be an obvious reality. Another example of an obvious reality is the RAPTURE of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Trying to look for specific words in the Holy Bible that are used today by Christians discussing a particular event is usually not material at all. However, many of the words that we use today have roots in the ancient languages of the Holy Bible. So, arguments about specific words are many times nothing but arguments in semantics. Most of us won't become involved in arguments in semantics because they are usually a waste of time and simply cause one or more of the participants to become angry. More than anything else, most of us try to avoid senseless arguments that lead to divisions between Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Many of us don't argue or debate Bible Prophecy here because it many times leads to needless divisions between Brothers and Sisters in Christ. On the other side of the coin is pleasant discussions in Christian Love that most of us enjoy and participate in. There are already massive threads on the forum with detailed information about these issues. I hope this helps you some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:1-2 NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2006, 11:57:30 AM »

Then you are disagreeing with the word of God, not me. Wisdom and understanding does not come from a book but from God Himself.

1Ch 22:12  Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

Pro 2:6  For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Ti 4:12  Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

There are many a young person that are much wiser in the ways of the Lord than are those that are older.


Rev 13:18 does not suggest any such thing as you say it does. The Bible frequently uses "a man" in describing an individual.

Mat 8:9  For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

Mat 9:2  And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mat 9:9  And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Also the verse in Rev 13:18 goes on to say that "his number is" not their number is.

As for the useage of the word of "antichrist" your argument is moot. The Bible specifically tells us that anyone that goes up against Jesus Christ is an antichrist whether it be one person or whether it be many.

1Jo 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This verse also shows that Rev 13:18 is speaking of one man not many.


The horn spoken of in Daniel is an individual. It explicitly states that it is someone that is in dominion over others.


Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Dan 8:21  And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

So we see here that when a horn is mentioned in Daniel it is speaking of a king of a certain nation, not the nation itself.


I didn't say that "book knowledge" makes one wise.
I do however believe that, in respect to Bible prophecy and things of the end, the book of Daniel is a MUST, or else Jesus, in Matt.24:15 would not have instructed us to read it.

Now....the scriptures you quote with the words "a man" in them, they are all in reference to a particular individual.  AND, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who the man is that's being referred to.
Different ballgame altogether in regards to the phrase, "a man" in  Rev.13:18.

In responce to your comments on "Antichrist":

Those verses in 1st John which talks about antichrists have nothing at all to do with the ten-horned beast, or, the "man of sin" who's worshipped in the last days.

John is merely saying to his listeners, "Whenever you go out to witness of Christ, you're going to eventually encounter that one who doesn't believe that Christ came in the flesh!"   "Therefore you must expect it, for there are many of them out there!"

As for Daniel 7:24, I'm glad you brought it up, for that is the verse I intended to reference in my next post.

Has it ever occured to you that "kings" in that verse, means "a people" as opposed to kings or rulers?!

Read it very carefully, because the "ten kings" and the "ten horns" are the 2 main players; or, the 2 spacific groups or, races of people which are being referred to in the rest of the chapters of Daniel.  
The one group; "the ten kings" is the race out of the fourth (European) kingdom on the earth.
The other group; "the ten horns" is the beast; the man of sin.
These two groups are they which are referred to as, the "ten toes of iron and clay" in a previous chapter.

The pronoun "he" which Daniel constantly uses throughout is in reference to one or the other of those 2 races.



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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2006, 12:09:29 PM »

Hello Biblestudent,

First, I see that you are new, so WELCOME!!


Bible Prophecy is a lengthy and difficult study. You won't understand it unless you leave the Scriptures in context, follow the references and comparisons, and wait for the Holy Spirit to help you develop the big picture. Failure to do this results in your own confusion and you being deceived. You really must look at a chain of events before you attempt to understand one event in the chain. It's also useful many times to work backward from a main event to understand the events leading up to it. As an example, the Antichrist is the devil in the main event, and this will be an obvious reality. Another example of an obvious reality is the RAPTURE of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Trying to look for specific words in the Holy Bible that are used today by Christians discussing a particular event is usually not material at all. However, many of the words that we use today have roots in the ancient languages of the Holy Bible. So, arguments about specific words are many times nothing but arguments in semantics. Most of us won't become involved in arguments in semantics because they are usually a waste of time and simply cause one or more of the participants to become angry. More than anything else, most of us try to avoid senseless arguments that lead to divisions between Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Many of us don't argue or debate Bible Prophecy here because it many times leads to needless divisions between Brothers and Sisters in Christ. On the other side of the coin is pleasant discussions in Christian Love that most of us enjoy and participate in. There are already massive threads on the forum with detailed information about these issues. I hope this helps you some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:1-2 NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Thanks for the welcome!

You'll find that my views are not the norm when it come to Bible prophecies, that's for sure. 
However, I don't intend to argue.  Been there, done that.
I do however, hope that what I have to say may inspire others to dig deeper into Daniel, and to not rely so much on todays well-known  prophecy gurus for understanding.
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2006, 12:49:13 PM »

Thanks for the welcome!

You'll find that my views are not the norm when it come to Bible prophecies, that's for sure. 
However, I don't intend to argue.  Been there, done that.
I do however, hope that what I have to say may inspire others to dig deeper into Daniel, and to not rely so much on todays well-known  prophecy gurus for understanding.

Biblestudent,

The ONLY prophecy gurus that I pay any attention to are in the Holy Bible. JESUS CHRIST, the Apostle Paul, and Daniel are my primary teachers. I've read a few articles from others, but I prefer the Holy Bible as the primary resource. I can only speak for myself when I say that the big picture of Bible Prophecy is already more clear than words from an ordinary man. The Holy Bible is also inspired by God (God Breathed - God's Word), so I'll keep using the Holy Bible as the ultimate resource.

I said that I can only speak for myself, but most of the people on the forum who study Bible Prophecy use the same methods that I do (i.e. Scripture by Scripture in the Holy Bible).

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:27-28 NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2006, 01:54:10 PM »

Biblestudent,

You see things in a different way then I do, thats fine. I may be wrong, I may be right. The only thing that really matters is Jesus Christ.

So I will not debate you, in this thread. If you wish to debate, there is a debate section three doors down. Like you, I am not lacking in the Bible prophecies. That goes for the ending of Grace, and the begining of the End times.

Quote
As well, you haven't shown me that the name "Antichrist" is used in reference to the ten-horned beast; man of sin in scriptures.
The Antichrist will arise out of the of ten kingsdoms.

Rev 13:1-18 1 [AS] [a]I stood on the sandy beach, I saw a beast coming up out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads. On his horns he had ten royal crowns (diadems) and blasphemous titles (names) on his heads.  2 And the beast that I saw resembled a leopard, but his feet were like those of a bear and his mouth was like that of a lion. And to him the dragon gave his [own] might and power and his [own] throne and great dominion.  3 And one of his heads seemed to have a deadly wound. But his death stroke was healed; and the whole earth went after the beast in amazement and admiration.  4 They fell down and paid homage to the dragon, because he had bestowed on the beast all his dominion and authority; they also praised and worshiped the beast, exclaiming, Who is a match for the beast, and, Who can make war against him?  5 And the beast was given the power of speech, uttering boastful and blasphemous words, and he was given freedom to exert his authority and to exercise his will during forty-two months (three and a half years).(A)  6 And he opened his mouth to speak slanders against God, blaspheming His name and His abode, [even vilifying] those who live in heaven.  7 He was further permitted to wage war on God's holy people (the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,(B) 8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] [b ]from the foundation of the world. 9 If anyone is able to hear, let him listen:  10Whoever leads into captivity will himself go into captivity; if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Herein is [the call for] the patience and the faith and fidelity of the saints (God's people).(C)  11Then I saw another beast rising up out of the land [itself]; he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke (roared) like a dragon. 12 He exerts all the power and right of control of the former beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell upon it to exalt and deify the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, and to worship him.  13 He performs great signs (startling miracles), even making fire fall from the sky to the earth in men's sight. 14 And because of the signs (miracles) which he is allowed to perform in the presence of the [first] beast, he deceives those who inhabit the earth, commanding them to erect a statue (an image) in the likeness of the beast who was wounded by the [small] sword and still lived.(D) 15 And he is permitted [also] to impart the breath of life into the beast's image, so that the statue of the beast could actually talk and cause to be put to death those who would not bow down and worship the image of the beast.(E)  16 Also he compels all [alike], both small and great, both the rich and the poor, both free and slave, to be marked with an inscription [[c]stamped] on their right hands or on their foreheads,  17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.  18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom [d]of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666.

Footnotes

a. Revelation 13:1 Many ancient manuscripts read "he."
b. Revelation 13:8 Alternate translation: "recorded from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice]."
c. Revelation 13:16 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.
d. Revelation 13:18 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.

Cross references:

A. Revelation 13:5 : Dan 7:8
B. Revelation 13:7 : Dan 7:21, 25
C. Revelation 13:10 : Jer 15:2
D. Revelation 13:14 : Deut 13:1-5
E. Revelation 13:15 : Dan 3:5

You have yet, to show what you are thinking. All you have done is question us, trying to cause a disturbance.  So until you post your thoughts, I think I won't answer you.

Oh yes, the Beast=the antichrist.
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2006, 03:13:35 PM »

Bible student,

If this king or kings that are mentioned in Daniel are nations (kingdoms) instead of individuals then why does it specify the word kingdom in those verses and separates it from the words king(s)?


Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


These kings that are spoken of in Daniel 7 and 8 will have nations that they are rulers over. This is quite clear. But the king is the ruler over those nations .......

Dan 8:20  The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21  And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Now explain to me how you understand that a king in these verses is a nation.



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Biblestudent
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2006, 12:16:48 PM »

Biblestudent,

You see things in a different way then I do, thats fine. I may be wrong, I may be right. The only thing that really matters is Jesus Christ.

So I will not debate you, in this thread. If you wish to debate, there is a debate section three doors down. Like you, I am not lacking in the Bible prophecies. That goes for the ending of Grace, and the begining of the End times.
The Antichrist will arise out of the of ten kingsdoms.

Rev 13:1-18 1 [AS] [a]I stood on the sandy beach, I saw a beast coming up out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads. On his horns he had ten royal crowns (diadems) and blasphemous titles (names) on his heads.  2 And the beast that I saw resembled a leopard, but his feet were like those of a bear and his mouth was like that of a lion. And to him the dragon gave his [own] might and power and his [own] throne and great dominion.  3 And one of his heads seemed to have a deadly wound. But his death stroke was healed; and the whole earth went after the beast in amazement and admiration.  4 They fell down and paid homage to the dragon, because he had bestowed on the beast all his dominion and authority; they also praised and worshiped the beast, exclaiming, Who is a match for the beast, and, Who can make war against him?  5 And the beast was given the power of speech, uttering boastful and blasphemous words, and he was given freedom to exert his authority and to exercise his will during forty-two months (three and a half years).(A)  6 And he opened his mouth to speak slanders against God, blaspheming His name and His abode, [even vilifying] those who live in heaven.  7 He was further permitted to wage war on God's holy people (the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,(B) 8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] [b ]from the foundation of the world. 9 If anyone is able to hear, let him listen:  10Whoever leads into captivity will himself go into captivity; if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Herein is [the call for] the patience and the faith and fidelity of the saints (God's people).(C)  11Then I saw another beast rising up out of the land [itself]; he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke (roared) like a dragon. 12 He exerts all the power and right of control of the former beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell upon it to exalt and deify the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, and to worship him.  13 He performs great signs (startling miracles), even making fire fall from the sky to the earth in men's sight. 14 And because of the signs (miracles) which he is allowed to perform in the presence of the [first] beast, he deceives those who inhabit the earth, commanding them to erect a statue (an image) in the likeness of the beast who was wounded by the [small] sword and still lived.(D) 15 And he is permitted [also] to impart the breath of life into the beast's image, so that the statue of the beast could actually talk and cause to be put to death those who would not bow down and worship the image of the beast.(E)  16 Also he compels all [alike], both small and great, both the rich and the poor, both free and slave, to be marked with an inscription [[c]stamped] on their right hands or on their foreheads,  17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.  18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom [d]of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666.

Footnotes

a. Revelation 13:1 Many ancient manuscripts read "he."
b. Revelation 13:8 Alternate translation: "recorded from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice]."
c. Revelation 13:16 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.
d. Revelation 13:18 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.

Cross references:

A. Revelation 13:5 : Dan 7:8
B. Revelation 13:7 : Dan 7:21, 25
C. Revelation 13:10 : Jer 15:2
D. Revelation 13:14 : Deut 13:1-5
E. Revelation 13:15 : Dan 3:5

You have yet, to show what you are thinking. All you have done is question us, trying to cause a disturbance.  So until you post your thoughts, I think I won't answer you.

Oh yes, the Beast=the antichrist.

OK, I'll try not to argue, I'll try not to debate, and I'll try not to cause a disturbance.  I'll simply try to offer my thoughts and "show what I'm thinking".

The man of sin, or,  son of perdition as he's called in 11Thes.2 is the 10 horned "beast" of Rev.13, and of whom Babylon is serving/worshipping.

Translated, this I believe is the vision which John the Revelator saw in Rev.13.

1.  "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw "Babylon" rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns."  (Reference: Rev.17, which says that "Babylon" has the seven heads and ten horns.)  Thus, it is "Babylon" which John sees coming out of the sea in verse 1.  Question: Have you determined where modern day Babylon is?

3.  "And I saw one of Babylon's races of people; powerless and beaten down, as though they were wounded to death.  I saw their hurt healed, and I saw the world idolizing them."

4.  "And Babylon worshipped the devil which gave power unto the ten-horned beast; and they worshipped the ten-horned beast, saying, "Which other race of people is like them?!  Who is able to go against them?!"

5  "And the ten-horned beast spoke lies and blasphemies against Babylon, and power was given them to continue forty two months  (meaning 42 "years", perhaps?).

7  "And they were given power to wage war against Babylon, for they were given more power than all the other races within Babylon."

8  "And all on the earth idolized them, whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's book of life."

9  "If any man have an ear, let him understand this."

10  "He that leadeth into bondage to that race, shall go into bondage, and he that argues, must in turn be argued with.  Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

11  "And I saw the false prophet rise up out of that race; the ten-horned beast."

12  "And he took advantage of his power which was for the benefit of his people; the ten-horned beast.

13  "And he preached to Babylon."

14  "And he deceived Babylon by those things he was able to accomplish for his people; the ten-horned beast; saying to Babylon and the world, that they should make an image of his people; the ten-horned beast that was wounded."

15  "And he gave life unto his race of people; the ten-horned beast, and his people spoke, and caused Babylon to serve/worship them."

16  "And the ten-horned beast caused ALL of Babylon; both the small and great, the rich and the poor, the free and the bond, to receive their image, and to serve them either physically or mentally."

17  "And no other race within Babyon was able to "buy and sell" like the ten-horned beast."

18  "Here is wisdom.  Let him that hath understanding, consider this number: for it is the number of the ten-horned beast, and their number is 666."




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Biblestudent
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2006, 12:32:15 PM »

Bible student,

If this king or kings that are mentioned in Daniel are nations (kingdoms) instead of individuals then why does it specify the word kingdom in those verses and separates it from the words king(s)?


Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


These kings that are spoken of in Daniel 7 and 8 will have nations that they are rulers over. This is quite clear. But the king is the ruler over those nations .......

Dan 8:20  The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21  And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Now explain to me how you understand that a king in these verses is a nation.





I'll respond later........that is, IF I haven't been booted out of here.  I've found that all those who aren't worshipping the end-time beast doesn't last too long on these christian message boards, as they are quickly booted off.
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2006, 01:05:17 PM »

Quote
that is, IF I haven't been booted out of here.

That won't happen as long as the rules of the forum are not broken:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=8929.0


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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2006, 05:42:15 AM »

Quote
Biblestudent Said:

I'll respond later........that is, IF I haven't been booted out of here.  I've found that all those who aren't worshiping the end-time beast doesn't last too long on these christian message boards, as they are quickly booted off.

 Huh   Huh

Biblestudent, are you saying that the Christians on Christians Unite or any other group of Christians are worshiping the beast? It sounds like that's exactly what you are saying, so please expound on your statement and accusation.

Just for information, the beast hasn't been revealed yet. If you think that he has been revealed, who do you think he is and why? If you say JESUS CHRIST, that would be blasphemy, and you probably would get booted off the forum pretty quickly, RIGHTFULLY SO! In fact, I'm thinking this is exactly what you are about to state. If not, who do you think that we worship?

If you are here to preach islam or some other false religion that denies or mocks God the Father, God the Son (JESUS CHRIST), or God the Holy Spirit, you would need to read the forum rules and know that there is no pulpit here for false religions and false cults. The vast majority of Christian forums are the same in this regard or they wouldn't be Christian forums.

Another Link for the forum rules:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/rules.shtml

So, if you are here to preach about a religion that is contrary to Christianity, JESUS CHRIST, or the Holy Bible, you've wasted your time completely, and it won't be done here. A ton of folks have tried it, especially about islam, and you won't find a word about preaching or promoting false religions here.

We Worship JESUS CHRIST Here as Lord and Saviour Forever!

If you are here to preach or promote something different, it won't be done here.

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