THE ANTICHRIST

[dp]

at_the_Cross,

If you'll look closely at all the Daniel examples of the ten horned beast, even back to Daniel 2:39-44, we find it is a symbol for the very last world kingdom upon earth before God's Kingdom is setup. Even in Daniel 7:24-27 we find the ten horn kingdom being destroyed at last and given to the saints of The Most High. That timing is linked with Christ's second coming and has not happened yet (Rev.11:15). That is why some who treat that fourth kingdom as old pagan Rome believe it must be revived again for the end of days (our time).

However we relate that fourth kingdom to old Rome or another kingdom, the fourth kingdom of ten horns is a symbol that continues all the way to the end, mainly because of God's Kingdom being established at its destruction. So whatever world kingdom is formed up on earth prior to Christ's return, we know that symbol of the last false kingdom must be included in it. In that sense, the ten horns become a type of 'blueprint'.

Note the first five verses of Rev.12. The woman clothed in the sun relates to God's Israel, because those symbols are hard linked to the dream Joseph had about his mother, father, and eleven brethren per Genesis 37. It is then about the first establishing of the "Seed" of the woman through whom Christ would be born through, with Satan trying to stop it, even back to the time in the Garden with Eve. Notice those ten horns, seven heads, and seven crown symbols are tied with Satan's first rebellion with his angels (stars). We know per Rev.20:2 and 12:9 the name "dragon" is another one of Satan's many titles. So that ten horn example is also... tied to his rebellion of old, when he drew one third of the angels into rebellion with him against God (per Rev.12:3-4). That particular ten horn example already took place when Satan first rebelled, and we are to notice that as a 'blueprint' for the future ten horn example that follows in Rev.13:1 which is to have "ten crowns". If that Rev.12:3 ten horn example had not been given along with that event of the drawing of a third part of the stars (angels), then it would fit the little horn subduing three kings as you say.

God's Word jumps to past and future timelines very quickly in some Scripture, and those Rev.12:1-5 verses are one of them. Note then, at Rev.12:6, the timing changes to the future, as the 1260 days timing given is in relation to the beast system of Rev.13 forward (Rev.13:5 as 42 months). Rev.12:17 is also a marker for future timing of that 1260 days of great tribulation upon the woman. So there's quite a bit of timeline jumping in that Revelation 12 Chapter.


Rev.17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


A birdseye view in God's Word is needed for some of this. Recall per Rev.13 mentions two different 'beasts', the first being a world kingdom or system over the whole earth, and the second beast, the "another beast" starting at Rev.13:11 being the 'dragon' himself. So that 'beast' name is a metaphor for Satan ultimately wanting to be The KING, and claiming dominion over the whole earth (note how he tempted our Lord with this in Luke 4:5-7). In OT times, with the past pagan kingdoms like old Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Tyre, etc., all of them are symbolic blueprints of attempts at a false one-world kingdom over all the earth. God uses the word Babylon again in Revelation for the last one, because it means 'confusion' and relates to the attempted early world takeover at the tower of Babel (and even back to Satan's original rebellion with certain Hebrew word passages). In Isaiah 14, God uses the king of Assyria and Lucifer as a symbol link for that 'beast' working. Again that type of symbolic link is drawn between Satan and the king of Tyrus, the king of Assyria, and Pharaoh in Ezekiel 28 through 31. That means God wants us to note this blueprint He gave, and understand how all those past 'beast' kingdoms relate to the final one up to His return, and even to the one Satan will tempt the nations with after Christ's future thousand years reign (Rev.20:7-9).

Per Rev.17:11, this is how Satan can be...

"the beast that was" - his rebellion of old, a system that had "seven crowns" which he ruled over and drew one third of the stars with.

"and is not" - he has not ruled de facto 'in person' on earth since that first time he rebelled of old when God ended it and cast him down. The old pagan beast system flesh kings on earth in OT times ruled in his stead for him.

"even he is the eighth" - the kingdom he will tempt the nations with after Christ's thousand years reign (Rev.20:7-9). This is still way... future to us.

"and is of the seven" - he was behind all those past world kingdoms of history, the flesh kings only serving as 'types' of his rebellion on earth (see analogies of Ezekiel 28 and 31).

"and goeth into perdition" - one of his titles is "Apollyon" (Rev.9:11) which means 'the destroyer', and is from the Greek 'apollumi' which also gives 'apoleia', which means 'perdition'. He has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire", God causing a fire within himself to consume him (Ezek.28:18).

Within all this, it is possible to see the 'beast' kingdom working in 'blueprint' form also within that old League of Nations bent, and with many other one-world kingdom type ideas (like Communism, Socialism, Globalism, one-world relgion, etc.). Some have mentioned that the Trilateralists already have a plan to divide the earth up into ten specific regions of power, and the Americas even into a ten system divided region. We'll have to wait and see as more of God's prophecies come forth to be sure of the small details though. I personally believe that the Antichrist will be Satan de facto in person on earth, ruling over the ten kings of Rev.13. I get the sense from Scripture that God is reserving that final false king role of the latters days for Satan himself, and is linked to his very first attempt at ruling in God's stead. There are many Scripture pointers to that, if you understood what I covered within this. Here's one of them...

Rev 17:8
8   The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)


Blessings to you in Christ Jesus,
dp

[at_the_Cross]

I would go with the EU, which is claiming to be the new roman empire rebuilt.

re: Rev. 12:3 
There will in my opinion be a small war, which will remove the 3 kings missing.

Being Constantinople(Istanbul, Turkey)  became the new Roman Empire in 359 A.D. and the Ottoman Empire capture Constantinople in 1453 A.D. they have taken on the eastern leg and iron and clay. The EU only has one leg to stand on IMHO.

Possibility small war in plural.

If you'll look closely at all the Daniel examples of the ten horned beast, even back to Daniel 2:39-44, we find it is a symbol for the very last world kingdom upon earth before God's Kingdom is setup. Even in Daniel 7:24-27 we find the ten horn kingdom being destroyed at last and given to the saints of The Most High. That timing is linked with Christ's second coming and has not happened yet (Rev.11:15). That is why some who treat that fourth kingdom as old pagan Rome believe it must be revived again for the end of days (our time).

However we relate that fourth kingdom to old Rome or another kingdom, the fourth kingdom of ten horns is a symbol that continues all the way to the end, mainly because of God's Kingdom being established at its destruction. So whatever world kingdom is formed up on earth prior to Christ's return, we know that symbol of the last false kingdom must be included in it. In that sense, the ten horns become a type of 'blueprint'.

Note the first five verses of Rev.12. The woman clothed in the sun relates to God's Israel, because those symbols are hard linked to the dream Joseph had about his mother, father, and eleven brethren per Genesis 37. It is then about the first establishing of the "Seed" of the woman through whom Christ would be born through, with Satan trying to stop it, even back to the time in the Garden with Eve. Notice those ten horns, seven heads, and seven crown symbols are tied with Satan's first rebellion with his angels (stars). We know per Rev.20:2 and 12:9 the name "dragon" is another one of Satan's many titles.

Although we don't see eye to eye on a few things, we're on the same page here.

If that Rev.12:3 ten horn example had not been given along with that event of the drawing of a third part of the stars (angels), then it would fit the little horn subduing three kings as you say.

Whats left after the little horn ...three crowns short of ten kings, it seemed feasible that Daniel 7:7 becomes a great red dragon that appears in heaven in Rev. 12:3.

Rev.17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Quote by you[dp]: After the thousand years of Rev.20, Satan is to be released again to go tempt the nations. That's the eighth fulfillment, and then goes into the lake of fire. That timing is related to Isaiah 24:21-23.

A beast that is empowered by seven demonic creatures(Mark 5:9-13; Luke 8:30-31) and aligned with ten kings(due to Rev. 13:2 the dragon gave his power to it/him). You think it's of millennial(which it could be). I've considered what you said in your previous post and others, but I haven't had the time to study it in your view. What I've gathered from talking to you is something like...

Was - before Christ returns,
Is not - during Christ reign on earth,
Even he is the eighth - after 1,000 years.

A birdseye view in God's Word is needed for some of this. Recall per Rev.13 mentions two different 'beasts', the first being a world kingdom or system over the whole earth, and the second beast, the "another beast" starting at Rev.13:11 being the 'dragon' himself. So that 'beast' name is a metaphor for Satan ultimately wanting to be The KING, and claiming dominion over the whole earth (note how he tempted our Lord with this in Luke 4:5-7).

Blessings to you in Christ Jesus,
dp

Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

A metaphor?... John could've said "he speaks as himself" instead. I know it's a symbol of the religious power and secular authorities which I thought was the Antichrist but is more like the false prophet.

Blessings to you too in Christ Jesus

[Shammu]

Being Constantinople(Istanbul, Turkey)  became the new Roman Empire in 359 A.D. and the Ottoman Empire capture Constantinople in 1453 A.D. they have taken on the eastern leg and iron and clay. The EU only has one leg to stand on IMHO.

Blessings to you too in Christ Jesus

On 3 October 2005, membership negotiations were symbolically opened with Turkey, which has been an associate member of the EU since 1963 and an official candidate since 1999. The historic decision on 17 December 2004 by the European Council was confirmed by the European heads of state and government on 17 June. On 29 June, the Commission presented its negotiating framework to Ankara, and after a full day of intense negotiations the EU-25's foreign ministers finalised the document on 3 October. Within hours, Turkey accepted the terms. Now from todays news...............

Turkey is an EU Candidate, but Negotiations are Open Ended

By Anadolu News Agency (aa), Berlin
Published: Sunday, March 19, 2006

 Australian Prime Minister Wolfang Schussel said Turkey, which has been promised honest and professional membership negotiations, is an important European Union candidate country.

In his speech to German “Der Spiegel” magazine, upon a question on Turkey’s European Union membership, Schussel said the following:

“Turkey is a candidate country, to which we promised honest and professional membership negotiations, yet these negotiations are open ended and there are many things that still need to be accomplished. As a result, like all candidate countries, Turkey’s membership capacity and European Union’s new member accepting capacity will be considered. Since the citizens will decide about this topic, the result obtained will be tried in a realist way.”
Turkey is an EU Candidate, but Negotiations are Open Ended

Theres is the missing leg, you were referring to brother. Though theres is still work, we don't know about.

[at_the_Cross]

Did you know the EU flag has 12 stars?

[Shammu]

Did you know the EU flag has 12 stars?

Yes I did know the flag has 12 stars.........

They stand for.....

12 signs of the zodiac;
12 hours on a clock;
12 months in a year;
12 apostles;
12 tables of Roman Law;
12 starry crowns of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

The twelve yellow stars on a blue field were officially adopted as the symbol of the European Community on 26 May 1986. Adoption of a flag and an anthem was suggested during the European council held in Milan on 28 and 29 June 1985. In the beginning of 1986, the European Commission believed that adoption date of the flag and the anthem should be 9 May, the anniversary of Robert Schuman's declaration of 9 May 1950, which is considered as the founding act of the European Union.

Although, the UEO / WEU flag had at first 9 stars, and received a tenth star on 26 October 1993 with the entrance of Greece.

Members of the Western European Union;
Belgium
France
Germany
Greece
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
United Kingdom

The Western European Union, is also the European Military Force, of the European Union.

[dp]

at_the_Cross, brethren and sisters,

Well, line upon line must be the basis of our study in God's Word. Our study may lead to many other Scriptures, but we are to first keep a line upon line flow within the Chapter we're studying first. Hopefully this will make it more clear what I'm talking about. at_the_Cross, I do understand what you mean on this in relation to Daniel 7 and 8 about the little horn subdueing three kings, and of casting stars down in Daniel 8:9-10. The only problem with that is the timing is different in most of these first five Rev.12 verses.

Rev 12:1
1   And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(KJV)

The definition of that first sign (wonder)...

Gen 37:9-10
9   And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."
10   And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, "What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"
(KJV)

Joseph dreamed about "eleven stars" because he himself represented the 12th star in that. Joseph's father (Jacob) and mother understood the "sun" and "moon" symbols meant them per verse 10 above. And God changed Jacob's name to 'Israel'. So this Rev.12:1 verse is clearly about the Seed of the Woman first mentioned in Gen.3:15, i.e. the start of the family lineage our Lord Jesus would be born through. So there is no way these symbols represent anything else, like the EU or what not. That won't fit this example from our Lord Jesus. (The 12 stars of the EU will fit Satan's attempt at building his own version of God's Israel though. I'll easily agree with that working).

Rev 12:2
2   And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(KJV)

She who? The woman of the previous verse, that's who; and who was that? Israel, which is what the 'sun', the 'moon', and 12 stars represent. How far back does the bloodline lineage Christ came through travel? All the way back to Adam and Eve (Luke 3). This child represents the beginning of Christ's lineage in Genesis. We are back to Genesis with Cain and Abel at this above verse.

Rev 12:3
3   And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(KJV)

Another sign in heaven is given. This time it's that old serpent, the devil, and Satan. That's who John intends here with this "great red dragon" symbol. Why? Because John said so later on in this same Rev.12 Chapter...

Rev 12:9
9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

That great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns are symbols of a kingdom, a dominion. It is not the same one John speaks of later in Rev.13:1, but it is like it. Why? Because Rev.12:4 goes with Rev.12:3 and cannot be separated because of the flow of the subject. So what happened with that seven crowned, seven head, ten horned system in relation to verse 4...

Rev 12:4
4   And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

Who's tail? The tail of the "great red dragon" John just mentioned back in the 3rd verse. Who is that dragon per John? Satan, that old serpent himself; his tail drew one third of the "stars of heaven". Did that say he drew one third of the 12 stars on the woman's crown? No. These "stars of heaven" are a different sign. They represent heavenly powers, angels even. Rev.1:20 tells us the 7 stars are the 'angels' of the seven Churches. Thus 'stars' can represent angels also, yet these "stars of heaven" represent Satan's angels, for that is also part of the subject here which John is going to pick up starting at Rev.12:7. So when did Satan draw a third part of the 'stars of heaven', meaning his angels?

Job 1:6-7
6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7   And the LORD said unto Satan, "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
(KJV)

If you recall what happened in Genesis 6, the "sons of God" (angels) who left their own habitation and took wives of the daughters of men, and the result was a hybrid giant offspring on the earth. Jude 1 tells us they went after strange flesh, and kept not their first estate. Here in Job 1 Satan appears before God among them. Satan's station was upon the earth per that verse. So the question is, when was Satan first cast down to the earth back then, and was he cast down then with the angels he drew with his tail into rebellion with him? When did that rebellion first happen? Put it this way, Ezekiel 28:12-18 are verses definitely speaking about Satan. That's who the "anointed cherub that covereth" mentioned there is. He originally served God upon His Holy Mountain we are told, and he was originally perfect in his ways, before he fell into iniquity. God even originally made him the full pattern of beauty. When was that time when Satan fell into iniquity against God, when he even said against God, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"? (Isa.14:14).

That timing when Satan first fell is also the timing that seven headed, ten horned, and seven crown system occurred in. We are not told specifically in God's Word when that was, because we are not told how far back in time it was when Satan originally rebelled against God. But we know it happened, and it was a very long time ago, because Satan as "that old serpent" was already prepared to attack the Seed of the Woman back in Genesis 3. The foudation of God's Plan of Salvation had to have already been established in Heaven by that time. Genesis 3:15 is even the first hint of The Savior coming to die on the cross.

The Rev.12:4 example of the system with ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, is a symbol for Satan's kingdom he tried to establish back in the days of old, when he drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him against God. That's why it is given along with the subject of Satan getting ready to attack the Seed of the Woman that refers us back to Genesis 3-4. It goes with that early timing and subject of Satan's first attacking the Seed of the Woman. It's in prep for understanding the remaining Rev.12:6 through Rev.12:17 verses about an end time attacking, and ultimately the new system with ten crowns this time starting in Rev.13.

Now the latter part of Rev.12:4, who is that 'woman' again? It's Israel. What child was that dragon (Satan) waiting to devour as soon as she gave birth? Well, what happened to righteous Abel? His brother Cain murdered him, as Satan tried many times in OT history to break up the family our Lord Jesus would be born through, even down to the time of attacking the Baby Jesus through king Herod. This is the emnity between Satan and the Seed of the woman per Gen.3:15. That "child" thus is a symbol for the family lineage of Christ, even our Lord Jesus Himself we find out in the next verse.
 
Rev 12:5
5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
(KJV)

Who is this "she" again? The "woman" back at the very start of this, i.e. Israel, the seedline of Christ. This "man child" who is to rule all nations with a "rod of iron" is Who? That is our Lord Jesus. When will He do that de facto in Person? In the future, the "thousand years" timing of Rev.20. Big jump forward in time with this 5th verse.
 
Rev 12:6
6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

Here's a reference to the tribulation timing, i.e. 1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years. Now the timeline is jumping way forward, to the end of days just prior to Christ's return. Again, this 'woman' represents God's Israel (including His spiritual Israel through Christ also, i.e. the Church. See Rev.12:17 about those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ).


dp

[dp]

Sorry to take up so much space in my last post everyone, I have a habit of line upon line study, and that's how I like to cover God's Word when speaking about It with others also.

at_the_Cross,

In reference to Satan with that word 'beast':  it is also a title applied to him, not only his beast system he is over. We learn that with the clause "another beast" in Rev.13:11 forward when specifically talking about his title of the "dragon".

He is the beast that was, because the ten horned beast system of Rev.12:3-4 that only had "seven crowns" instead of ten, was his system of old when he first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him.

I realize some might be having a problem understanding about Satan's rebellion of old, and how far back it was, and what type of rebellion it was. Recall in Genesis 2 and most of Genesis 3 that God's Garden of Eden was then upon this earth. Adam and Eve dwelt in It, disobeyed God there and were cast out from It. After the fall of Adam, God removed His Abode off this earth (latter verses of Gen.3). But He will return It back to this earth, which is what that great River subject is about in Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47 (note especially Gen.2:10; that's the same River flowing out of Eden of Rev.22! Ezekiel 47 is also a must read on that). God gave us a few hints like that which also relate to a time in Eden when even Satan was perfect in his ways before he rebelled (Ezekiel 28:12-18; Ezek.31). Our LORD wants us to understand that part too, because He has promised to return to this earth and live in the midst of us, literally (Rev.22; last verse of Ezek.48).

He (Satan) yet is, because he won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

Even he is the eighth, because Satan will be allowed just one more try to tempt the nations, which is... after... the "thousand years" reign of our Lord Jesus on earth is over (per Rev.20 when he is released out of the 'pit'). That's the very last time for the 'beast' type system working by Satan. After that, it's off to the "lake of fire" with him. This is why Gog and Magog are mentioned there again in Rev.20 after Christ's thousand years reign. It's because those nation type labels are symbols for the 'beast' working over nations. The Ezekiel 38-39 Gog and Magog example is for our time though, just prior to Christ's second coming to start His thousand years reign on earth with His elect (known in Scripture as the future "day of the LORD").

The label of "beast" in Revelation relates to a dangerous animal, like a rabid venomous animal...

2 Pet 2:12
12   But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
(KJV)

Jude 1:10-11
10   But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11   Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
(KJV)

It is a marker for corruption on such a level that they will have to be destroyed, like a wild crazy animal that cannot be healed. Such are the "workers of iniquity" and fallen angels who purposefully worship Lucifer and work against God and His Christ.

Blessings to you in Christ Jesus,
Dave

[at_the_Cross]

at_the_Cross, I do understand what you mean on this in relation to Daniel 7 and 8 about the little horn subdueing three kings, and of casting stars down in Daniel 8:9-10. The only problem with that is the timing is different in most of these first five Rev.12 verses.

I was only saying Antiochus Epiphanes was "a" anti-God of the Old Testament. The only relationship between Daniel 7 and 8 that I would refer to is Alexander the Great's and his four Generals and the Medes and Perisa.

Rev 12:1
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(KJV)

The definition of that first sign (wonder)...

Joseph dreamed about "eleven stars" because he himself represented the 12th star in that. Joseph's father (Jacob) and mother understood the "sun" and "moon" symbols meant them per verse 10 above. And God changed Jacob's name to 'Israel'. So this Rev.12:1 verse is clearly about the Seed of the Woman first mentioned in Gen.3:15, i.e. the start of the family lineage our Lord Jesus would be born through.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

So there is no way these symbols represent anything else, like the EU or what not. That won't fit this example from our Lord Jesus. (The 12 stars of the EU will fit Satan's attempt at building his own version of God's Israel though. I'll easily agree with that working).

As DW was showing me that Turkey was a part of the EU now. Alot of people say the ten is the EU. But, the question would be when the 10 do their part. I only noticed the EU flag when I looked the EU up on Wikipedia the other night. I apologize if you thought I was referring to Revelation 12:1 and the EU flag being the answer.

If 3 horns are pulled out, then there are only 7 horns left; but the eleventh(little) horn now becomes the 8th.