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Author Topic: Do calvinists know for sure they are saved?  (Read 13217 times)
asaph
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2003, 02:16:36 AM »

What is the final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life?

asaph
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Petro
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2003, 10:55:35 PM »

What is the final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life?

asaph

asaph,

The "final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life" is their own testimony.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:10)

It is no wonder to me there are those who claim to be of the elect, but do not believe the Saviors own words, why should they believe, ours , who believe to the saving of the soul.

We are "SECURE IN OUR FAITH" because we believe the words of Jesus.

He said;

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

Those who claim to be Christians, who believe they can lose their election, agree with all other unregenerated religious pretenders, that they indeed can.

So, is Jesus a liar, eternal life doesn't exist, and He won't be able to raise some up at the last day?

This is a question they need to answer for themselves.

This should be cause for concern to those who call themselves elect.


Blessings,

Petro,




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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2003, 06:09:38 AM »

This arguement is so old and silly.  You have people who believe in Calvin, people who believe in Arminius and then people who believe in God.  I find it most amusing that some people think you can be either arminian or clavinist when neither are totally correct.  I have more and more problems with calvinists the more I meet them.  They are usually cowards to do what God wants them to do hiding behind the "if God wants to save them or dod this he will, I can't do anything to change that."  Hence making them sit on their lazy butts allowing something to go wrong or allow something ungodly happen because they don't want to step in.

For instance a child would be better off with his father but seeing how the courts work today the father has to jump through hoops and such to gain custody over the mother.  a family member of the mother agree's that the mother is living a wretched way and the father should have custody.  The family member now a coward to the reaction of his family members refuses to testify that this is so.  The father now has nothing quite so solid for proof and does not gain custody.

This is typical of 90% of the calvinists I have met.  I haven't personally met any arminians to my knowledge but I already know what's wrong with them anyway.  They are a prideful foolish bunch who trust in themselves and not God.  They are also very legalistic and ignorant to the many things written in the Word.

The rest of those that actually follow the LORD and His Word are always the "best of both worlds" having a much better and deeper understanding.  From what I've seen sower and some others are in the right on this subject.

God bless,
Jason

God bless,
Jason
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2003, 06:12:55 AM »

Oh yeah I forgot along with my experiences the calvinst trusts in his tongue and not his heart.  Meaning that they believe I said it, so now it's so.  They often times have no problem sinning willfully and caring little, while rebuking those that do the same as them simply because they have not said they believe in Jesus.  I know a whole family of that brand and it makes me sick.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2003, 01:48:10 PM »

JASON

It sounds as though you have fighting your own Jihad (otherwise how could you know what others who are not your servants must do, or not do), this may be why, you are not able to continue in the discussion, since you acknowledge neither side is "totally correct" , so I suppose you would have us believe you have received special revelation, and you prepose to teach those who have errored.

I would suggest to you that you do not know what Calvinists teach at all and are not even qualified to comment on the the subject.

And that perhaps the problem isn't what others ought be doing, but what you presume to know and believe. I wouldn't be as outspoken about what others should do.  Other then study the word and ask guidance from above, most who disagree with Calvinism, have their own presuppositions and preconceived notions, un fortunatelymn thats all they are.

I am sure you are not God!


Blessings, to you anyhow..

Petro

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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2003, 01:55:54 PM »

Oh I get it now, YOU have all the answers instead.

Please Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2003, 05:30:38 PM »

This brings to mind the advice Paul gives to the  Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 1:10-13
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

This is why I've become a 'free agent. I believe once you aligned yourself with some manís teaching of the word you close yourself off to Godís teaching.
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2003, 02:41:43 AM »

Saved_4ever

Quote
This argument is so old and silly.  You have people who believe in Calvin, people who believe in Arminius and then people who believe in God.

Not only is it silly, but destructive as well.  This division has done great harm by maintaining a rift over two schools of theology rather than unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.
It is true that neither school is correct, and both are fundamentally flawed. It's time to say throw both out and let Scripture be the sole authority.

God does not elect some to heaven and others to hell.  Christ's atonement cannot be limited since He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29).  Otherwise Scripture would not declare "God now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (Acts 17:30). Neither does a true child of God lose his or her salvation.

As to the question heading the thread, Calvinists who have genuinely believed, genuinely repented, and genuinely received Christ are indeed saved. So are Arminians. So are all believers who simply ignore their theology.







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asaph
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2003, 04:03:35 AM »

Hi again Petro,
Your words:
"You appear to deny the very teaching of scripture that "no one comes to the father except by me" (Jhn 14:6) and "No man comes to me except the father draw him" (Jhn 6:44),  again "....and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."  (Mat 11:27) And in the end, the elect are those who were chosen and predestinated in Him unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph1:5) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph1:11)"

My observation:
What did Jesus mean by this:
John 6
45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Are not all taught of God the Father?
Do all hear from the heart?
Does this verse qualify verse 44?

John 6
44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

It seems to me that the Father attempts to draw all people through His teaching but only those who hear and have learned of the Father come to Jesus.
Some people resist Gods' grace, stopping their ears.

asaph


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asaph
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« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2003, 11:58:47 AM »

What is the final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life?

asaph

asaph,

The "final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life" is their own testimony.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:10)

It is no wonder to me there are those who claim to be of the elect, but do not believe the Saviors own words, why should they believe, ours , who believe to the saving of the soul.

We are "SECURE IN OUR FAITH" because we believe the words of Jesus.

He said;

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

Those who claim to be Christians, who believe they can lose their election, agree with all other unregenerated religious pretenders, that they indeed can.

So, is Jesus a liar, eternal life doesn't exist, and He won't be able to raise some up at the last day?

This is a question they need to answer for themselves.

This should be cause for concern to those who call themselves elect.


Blessings,

Petro,

Ones testimony is evidence, but is it the final evidence?
What does it mean to make our calling and election sure?
Is it not true that having life eternal is a condition of being in Christ?

Is not election also a result of being in Christ?
Did not Jesus say abide in me and I in you?

Is keeping His command to abide in Him a yoke too burdensome to bear, or is it a joy? Someone has said To love the Lord is to enjoy Him.This is true. Fellowship with the Lord Jesus and the Father is an enjoyment!

I am not of the camp that believes that as soon as one sins he loses his election status. God is lonsuffering and patient.
If anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. But unconfessed sin, when it is finished with its work, brings forth death. This can't be physical death but spiritual. Jesus told us not to fear physical death, the destruction of the body. But we should be alert to spiritual death. If we would simply focus on enjoying Jesus, obeying His instant commands daily, we need not fear spiritual death at all. Our journey is one of faith and fellowship with the God of grace. We do not depend on ourselves but on the one we trust, Jesus. He imparts his energy into us as we trust and enjoy Him. Obedience is the result. Jesus learned obedience through the things which he suffered. He trusted and enjoyed the Father through the testings he went through. The result was obedience. Now if we do not trust and enjoy Him through the trials of life, then disobedience (sin) is the result and the end is death. For the joy that was set before Him, He endured the cross, despising the shame. Let us follow in his steps.

asaph
« Last Edit: April 22, 2003, 12:30:06 PM by asaph » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2003, 01:11:40 PM »

asaph,

What scriptures do you rely on, aside from the the fact God is long suffering not willing that any should perish.

Which would substantuate your belief, that sin would not cause imediate death.

According to the Law of Moses, the man that broke the law, was put to death that same day.

We know Adam die spiritually, the very day he disobeyed the command.

Transgression of the law is sin, according to (1 Jhn 3:4)

God himself says;

Eze 18

4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Certainly you must have a more perfect understanbding of some scripture which assures you, you do not die, when you commit sin??

It is interesting that idolatrous religions today, have a similar understanding of scripture, but certainlhy you don't place your faith in these teachings.

My Bible gives a perfect parallel in the story of the Prodigal son, to a child of God, commiting sin and never being disowned by his father.

I am afraid, yours is a misunderstanding together with these others, based on giving more credibility to the teaching of men, rather than listening to the Words of the Savior.

No one who is saved can or will lose his salvation.

I wonder how you interpret Heb 6:4-6??

The they's in these verses, are they the saved ones??


Blessings

Petro
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« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2003, 01:35:40 PM »

Saved_4ever

Quote
This argument is so old and silly.  You have people who believe in Calvin, people who believe in Arminius and then people who believe in God.

Not only is it silly, but destructive as well.  This division has done great harm by maintaining a rift over two schools of theology rather than unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.
It is true that neither school is correct, and both are fundamentally flawed. It's time to say throw both out and let Scripture be the sole authority.

God does not elect some to heaven and others to hell.  Christ's atonement cannot be limited since He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29).  Otherwise Scripture would not declare "God now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (Acts 17:30). Neither does a true child of God lose his or her salvation.

As to the question heading the thread, Calvinists who have genuinely believed, genuinely repented, and genuinely received Christ are indeed saved. So are Arminians. So are all believers who simply ignore their theology.










I don't agree with you at all, those who are saved, are saved  providing they have been regenerated by the Spirit, it matters nothing if they adhere to either teaching (this agree to comp[letely) . If so, they should be teachable and sensitive to what the Spirit teaches.  Many who claim to be are not, it is evident by thie worship and twisted understanding of scripture.

The questions I posed to you, are difficult, I knew you wouldn't anwers them, and I know you nor others who rail against Calvinsim, are unable to answer, because there are no anwers.

The only reason you say what you've said, is because you know anyone who is elected by God and predestinated to Eternal Life can never lose the free gift that the grace of God has provided through faith.

But your understanding of the "T" which brought us to this point is flawed.

So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace.


Petro  


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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2003, 08:34:19 PM »

 
Quote
So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace.

The great deception is that a mere mortal, a saved sinner -John Calvin -- could put God into a box called "Reformed theology".

Bible truth is plain, but the workings of God upon human hearts are mysterious and cannot be boiled down to five points or fifty points. This is what Scripture declares:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30).

If
(1) God commands all men
(2) God commands all men everywhere
(3) God is not willing that any should perish
(4) but that all should come to repentance
(5) God would have all men be saved
(6) And come to a knowledge of the truth
(7) God says "Ho, every one that thirsteth, Come"
(8) God says "Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved"
(9) God says "Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely"

On what grounds can any man controvert this invitation with the false doctrine of limited atonement?

Unless you answer this question satisfactorily for everyone, none of the rest of your questions matter.




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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2003, 12:57:26 AM »

Quote
author   Sower

 
Quote
So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace.

The great deception is that a mere mortal, a saved sinner -John Calvin -- could put God into a box called "Reformed theology".

Bible truth is plain, but the workings of God upon human hearts are mysterious and cannot be boiled down to five points or fifty points. This is what Scripture declares:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30).

If
(1) God commands all men
(2) God commands all men everywhere
(3) God is not willing that any should perish
(4) but that all should come to repentance
(5) God would have all men be saved
(6) And come to a knowledge of the truth
(7) God says "Ho, every one that thirsteth, Come"
(Cool God says "Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved"
(9) God says "Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely"

On what grounds can any man controvert this invitation with the false doctrine of limited atonement?

Unless you answer this question satisfactorily for everyone, none of the rest of your questions matter.

[/quoter]





Sower,  you are slippery.

The points you make above are Gods will for mankind, Gods says, God Commands, God desires, no argument with these.

But you whiz against the wind on this one, speaking of JW's, your argujments remind me of, them, when one starts to pin them down, they change the subject.

Concerning Calvinism;

You argue against all the points, without considering what each point really proposes, and when asked tough questions, you jump to the next point without resolving the previous point.

Your arguments, are based on a distorted view of what Calvin taught, and you assume that the 5 points of Calvinism are "before the fact", while the case has been plainly made, that both sides  have proposed the points as a summation of what the scriptures actually teach concerning these things, according to the views of these two camps.  

One not only has been rejected, but deemed heretical in their stance, if you say, in rejecting the point of election (another gospel) I presume you align yourself with the heretics, on it.

And of course, like all bias individuals, you view what you presume to be so, in a different light.

Your attention is invited to Reply #3, on the Theology/Calvinism  TULIP- thread ;
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=51;start=0

You make this claim on 4/15/03:

"Total Depravity" which according to Calvinists means that no one can respond to the Gospel unless they are made to respond by the Holy Spirit because they are one of the Elect.
(notice I have emboldened the lie, you inserted in your statement)

Just like a false teacher, you have taken a biblical truth and inserted a lie.

Calvin taught plainly, that every sinner must believe first before he can be saved (sealed by the Spirit of Promise), those who believe and are saved, are revealed as the elect. Of course there is more to this doctrinal point, but in summation the point of the acronym designated by the letter T,  It is accurate to state, "the elect are saved", and ultimately when all is said and done, one can safely state "only all the elect are saved.

Calvinism's Uncoditional Election, is not based on God's foreknowledge. While Conditional Election (the Arminian position) is rooted in predestination being God's foreknowledge, the mere definition of Grace, refutes this very thought.

I doubt you even can grasp this.

Again in Reply #2, of this thread, you posted the following:

"Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel."

How absurd, your statement,  together with this last one.

These, for sure reveals to me you are misinformed and as I said before, you are not qualified to speak about the subject of what John Calvin taught, you know nothing at all of  the principles which he taught concerning these doctrines.

God while speaking to spiritual Israel, says;

Isa 43
 4  Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

Rom 9
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I suppose you would argue, these verses are not speaking about Gods sovereignty??

I know you and the camp you represent, can't stand God being  Sovereign over his creation, and this is the reason, why you reject these biblical truths, you make yourself sovereign, and would probaly even argue man's free will is equal to God's sovereign will, but the worst thing is that in order to give your point credibility, you attack the teachings of a real man of God.

I say engage your brain, before opening mouth, on the other hand I do not have to answer any questions satisfactorily to any of these points, they speak for themselves, all any honest individual has to do is take the time to familiarize himself with what is REALLY taught, before jumping to conclusions, and making wild assertions, this is why you all have no credibility.

Blessing,

Petro


PS  I am not in total agreement with the manner in which the points are articulated, but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't..  and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist.
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2003, 07:17:11 AM »

Quote
but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't..  and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist.

You really make me laugh sometimes.  You aren't a staunch calvinist yet you defend it as if it were the end all be all.   Roll Eyes

Whatever, you and many Calvinist's don't truly understand sovereignty.  Just because someone has total control does not mean they have to exercise total control and then can change when they want.  Calvinism also places the boundries of time on God constantly moaning about "before the foundation of the world" yet God is not limited by time seeing as to Him things are, were, and going to be all at the same time.  We are "with God now, not born, serving Him now."  mind boggling to say the least and I don't even try to comprehend it because it makes my head hurt.  

When you realize this things become much clearer.  It's really impossible for us to understand the concept of knowing everything at once.  Also from what I've heard calvinists believe in man's responcability and God's sovereignty at the same time.  Oh, ok that makes sense and still keeps in line with Calvinism.

Just think, did it ever occur to you that nothing occurs to God?

God bless,
Jason
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