Do calvinists know for sure they are saved?

[Petro]

but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't..  and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist.

You really make me laugh sometimes.  You aren't a staunch calvinist yet you defend it as if it were the end all be all.  

Whatever, you and many Calvinist's don't truly understand sovereignty.  Just because someone has total control does not mean they have to exercise total control and then can change when they want.  Calvinism also places the boundries of time on God constantly moaning about "before the foundation of the world" yet God is not limited by time seeing as to Him things are, were, and going to be all at the same time.  We are "with God now, not born, serving Him now."  mind boggling to say the least and I don't even try to comprehend it because it makes my head hurt.  

When you realize this things become much clearer.  It's really impossible for us to understand the concept of knowing everything at once.  Also from what I've heard calvinists believe in man's responcability and God's sovereignty at the same time.  Oh, ok that makes sense and still keeps in line with Calvinism.

Just think, did it ever occur to you that nothing occurs to God?

God bless,
Jason

Jason,

 posted  by Saved 4ever, on the TULIP thread, while answering Jeolkaki;

Well until I have some better experiences it remains unchanged.

Concerning your comenent to Joel,

I knew you were speaking from experiences, when making those accusations, do you do what you ought to??

I suppose I should have eloborated, in my closing comment, I am sure you don't slip your tongue occasionally.

Concerning what Calvin taught is what I defend, there is no bases to the teachings on the other side Peligianism, or semi-Peligianism is error, period,

As I stated before and many times before, the 5 points of Calvinsim are not what Calvin taught at all, they could have been better articulated, in line with his teachings, and it would keep from turning into what it has become today.

You "free agents" are a joke, in the end you agree, with what John Calvin taught, but are so proud, you would rather be known as lone rangers, then confess it publicly,if you do believe the bible you all are "closet Calvinists" and don't even know it.

Desiring to be teachers, you have need of being taught..

Petro

[Saved_4ever]

I never said everything calvin ever taught or said was wrong.  But you like others cling to a man's idea that don't totally hold up to what the bible says.  When one is a biblicist then he sees that there are both things in there yet they don't seem to totally fit together.  This is where the faith truly comes in.  You make the bible fit your theology instead of making your theology fit the bible.  

I never said that anyone never err but to use the excuses I've heard for not doing something they KNOW they should do is sad and quite upsetting.

You can make all the accusations you want it bothers me llittle.  

Take care,
Jason (cowboy) hehe that's funny.  

[Petro]

I never said everything calvin ever taught or said was wrong.  But you like others cling to a man's idea that don't totally hold up to what the bible says.  When one is a biblicist then he sees that there are both things in there yet they don't seem to totally fit together.  This is where the faith truly comes in.  You make the bible fit your theology instead of making your theology fit the bible.  

I never said that anyone never err but to use the excuses I've heard for not doing something they KNOW they should do is sad and quite upsetting.

You can make all the accusations you want it bothers me llittle.  

Take care,
Jason (cowboy) hehe that's funny.  

Jason,

Yeah, yaa, yaa.....pipe dreams///

My mistake, I guess I owe you an aopology, you didn't rail on Calvin himself, it was another cowboy.  and you haven't convinced me your all that astute..on what Calvin taught, so it doesn't matter, what comments you make.

I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs.

He Hey,..

Petro

[Saved_4ever]

I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs.

Wouldn't you be doing the same thing right now?  Or are you telling me that you know so much more then me that I should come back later?  Either way I don't care.  I am studying my bible all the time.  As we all SHOULD be doing always.  It's funny you didn't seem to have such a problem with me when my SN was atyrus28.  Oh well as I said I'm none too worried.

God bless,
Jason

[Petro]

I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs.

Wouldn't you be doing the same thing right now?  Or are you telling me that you know so much more then me that I should come back later?  Either way I don't care.  I am studying my bible all the time.  As we all SHOULD be doing always.  It's funny you didn't seem to have such a problem with me when my SN was atyrus28.  Oh well as I said I'm none too worried.

God bless,
Jason

The fact is, I don't have a problem with you at all, it is just the way, you came out throwing your weight around.

I've read enough of your posts, to know you agree with what John Calvin taught; I think you don't realize it, and then again maybe you don't, who knows??

One must reject Calvins teachings to accomadate the unity teaching, these days.  Thanks but no thanks...

Again, John Calvin never articulated the 5 Points of the TULIP, they were written to counter the 5 articles of the faith, submitted by Jacobus's following; and more prcisely as a logical conclusion addressing exactly point for point.

The fact is, Calvin's teachings, can't be reduced to 5 points, its ridiculous, to even begin to believe this, and above all else
the first point insults the natural tendency of man, because after all, isn't he like God, to know good and evil.

The problem as I see it, is the false teaching that is perpetuated by this idea, "man has a free will", when it is evident he doesn't, and then for you to make a blanket statement and accuse those who stand firm on this truth, by stating, those who believe this, don't share the good word with a dieing world is a careless, not well thought out statement, you may have met some who claim association with Calvinism, but you haven't met all, your percentages mean nothing, it all depends where you hang out.

Anyhow, it's not just the "birds nest", but where the other end of the line is,  the hook line and sinker, of these erroneous teachings have been swalloewed by those who are supposed to be the fishers men.. go figure..  

Blessings to you also,


Petro

[Saved_4ever]

One must reject Calvins teachings to accomadate the unity teaching, these days.

I never said anything about "unity teaching".  I'm talking about people being bibilicist's.  When you just read the bible and see what it has to say there are obvious proplems with some theological points on "either side".  I'm not talking about unifiying anything but the bible.  If you don't feel the same way such is life.  I'm not here to tell you you MUST believe what I have found, but giving my view as you also do.  I'm not "throwing around my weight" because I have none to throw.  I do have some strong convictions on the things I have found.  There is plenty in the bible that I can't see how they fit but God knows better than I so I accept these things with faith that they are so.  As I said we often try to make everything fit in time which is just stupid because God is not bound by time.  A LOT of calvinist idea's rest on the "before the foundation of the world, yet Christ was/is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  That means he was already crucified before He got here.  At least as far as our perception of time is concerned.  You don't have to agree but I have realized some of these facts, and here is where some real faith comes into play.

God bless,
Jason

[Anselm]

The very point of Calvinism is eternal security.  It is the Arminian or "free willer" who risks floundering.  Arminians could conceivably forfeit their salvation as a result of their own will.  Calvinism states that the mind, will, and affections are all held under the loving and irresistable grace of God.  Secondly, the acronym TULIP is not Calvinism.  It is a defense of grace against Arminianism by godly reformed men of the sixteenth century, precisely for the reason of keeping christian assurance and security of salvation in tact because Arminians attacked it.  Calvinism is defined by John Calvin who taught of general and special revelation, law and grace, the providence of God, the Fatherhood of God etc...Those who proudly believe that Jesus plus their depraved volition or will are responsible for their salvation are the most insecure christians precisely because they proudly hold salvation in the power of their own hands, and have not submitted wholly to grace.

[asaph]

But how does a calvinist no for sure he is one of the elect? How does he know that he will never fall away, proving that he never was a true believer in the first place? How does he know that he is not being deceived and that God already knows he is going to hell? You might not be God's elect and are only professing a false profession. Right now, in spite of your faith, God knows you are really not saved. Though you do not know it, you are in reality going to hell. My answer is that a calvinist cannot know, except by final perseverance, that he was ever really truly one of the elect.
My point is that you do not have to be calvinist or arminian to know you are elect. Just believe the scripture that says whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Cling to that and live. Let go of that and die.
I am not arminian or calvinist; I simply believe God's promises.

asaph

[John the Baptist]

My point is that you do not have to be calvinist or arminian to know you are elect. Just believe the scripture that says whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Cling to that and live. Let go of that and die.
I am not arminian or calvinist; I simply believe God's promises.

asaph

*************
John here: Just the one verse? or two promises?? What about Matt. 4:4's DIET?? Or the devils quoted promise of Matt. 4:6

And your quote states: "SHOULD NOT PERISH" Should not means what??

There is NO SUCH GOSPEL PROMISES that do away with the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant CONDITIONS! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20

---John

[Whitehorse]

Hi, Anselm! Very good observations there! Of course you know I'm biased.

[asaph]

My point is that you do not have to be calvinist or arminian to know you are elect. Just believe the scripture that says whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Cling to that and live. Let go of that and die.
I am not arminian or calvinist; I simply believe God's promises.

asaph

*************
John here: Just the one verse? or two promises?? What about Matt. 4:4's DIET?? Or the devils quoted promise of Matt. 4:6

And your quote states: "SHOULD NOT PERISH" Should not means what??

There is NO SUCH GOSPEL PROMISES that do away with the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant CONDITIONS! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20

---John

John,
Did I say just one or two promises?
What are the conditions? How about repentance toward God? How about faith in our Lord Jesus Christ? Is not this the work of God? It is the goodness of God that leads one to repentance. God works to the end that we might repent. This also is the work of God: that you believe in the one He has sent. Now if we shipwreck "the faith", it's because we have let go of faith and a good conscience. Our conscience is the seat of repentance. We need to walk in repentance else we will shipwreck "the faith". The bible gives examples of those who have become shipwrecked.

1 Timothy 1
18 This charge I commit to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you might war the good warfare,

19 Holding faith and a good conscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith;   ["The faith" here is objective, referring to the things in which we believe, whereas "faith" at the beginning of this verse is subjective, referring to the act of our believing. See also Galatians 1:23 which says:  "But they only heard this: He who was formerly persecuting us is now announcing as the gospel the faith which formerly he ravaged."  The faith here implies our believing in Christ, taking His person and His redemptive work as the object of our faith. The faith, replacing the law, by which God dealt with people in the Old Testament, became the principle by which God deals with people in the New Testament. This faith characterizes the believers in Christ and distinguishes them from the keepers of law. This is the main emphasis of the letter to the Galatians. The law of the Old Testament stresses letters and ordinances, whereas the faith of the New Testament emphasizes the Spirit and life.]
 
20 Of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may be disciplined not to blaspheme. (Recovery Version)

Please do not try to steal away the liberty we have in the faith by saying we have to keep the letter of the old covenant. If we let go of faith and a good conscience then we become shipwrecked in relation to the faith; we would be blaspheming.

I see the faith as the gospel. It is the ocean on which we sail. Faith and a good conscience is the ship we sail in. Lose them and you become shipwrecked on the rocks of sin and unbelief.

asaph

[John the Baptist]

Hay, John here:
glad that I gave you an opportunity to give some more of your insight! Sound's pretty good so far?

[Anselm]

But how does a calvinist no for sure he is one of the elect? How does he know that he will never fall away?


A Calvinist does not put his faith in the logistics of election.  He does believe that God has chosen some to salvation and called many.  A Calvinist knows he is saved by the faith he has in Jesus Christ.  A heartfelt knowledge a convicting certainty that his sins are forgiven and he is no longer a child of satan but of God.  He does not look at his sinful life, nor does he base his salvation's security in his sanctification or good works.  His assurance comes from faith in the good shephard in whom he now loves.  The sheep hear His voice and they know Him for He gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish.  Good works can make the conscience rest confidently that it is doing good in the strength of Jesus Christ.  But no good work nor the process of election are the grounds of a calvinist's security.  The Holy Spirit witnesses with the spirit of the child of God that he is saved.  The reason is the child's hero, the Lord Jesus Christ, embraced by living faith through grace.

[asaph]

Hay, John here:
glad that I gave you an opportunity to give some more of your insight! Sound's pretty good so far?

Thanks John.

asaph

[asaph]

But how does a calvinist no for sure he is one of the elect? How does he know that he will never fall away?


A Calvinist does not put his faith in the logistics of election.  He does believe that God has chosen some to salvation and called many.  A Calvinist knows he is saved by the faith he has in Jesus Christ.  A heartfelt knowledge a convicting certainty that his sins are forgiven and he is no longer a child of satan but of God.  He does not look at his sinful life, nor does he base his salvation's security in his sanctification or good works.  His assurance comes from faith in the good shephard in whom he now loves.  The sheep hear His voice and they know Him for He gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish.  Good works can make the conscience rest confidently that it is doing good in the strength of Jesus Christ.  But no good work nor the process of election are the grounds of a calvinist's security.  The Holy Spirit witnesses with the spirit of the child of God that he is saved.  The reason is the child's hero, the Lord Jesus Christ, embraced by living faith through grace.

Anselm,
Thanks for your post. I can appreciate what you are saying. The Lord Jesus is our only Savior and Sanctifier.  

1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? What came first, election or faith in Jesus? My answer is- Jesus is God's elect, so election came first, because Jesus was before the foundation of the world. We are elect in Him. Only faith can affirm this. In Adam all die. Because of Adam's sin we in him are sinners; we took on Adams lostness. But in Christ we are made righteous, we take on His election and all that it entails: righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost!

Isa 42:1  Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

What great judgment He has brought to us! We are judged elect in Him, righteous in Him, sanctified in Him, and redeemed in Him! This is the wisdom of God. Even election does not precede Him, but is in Him; all this according to the foreknowledge of God. But none of this happens in us apart from our faith in Him.

asaph