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Author Topic: The Mid-Trib Rapture  (Read 8620 times)
AJ
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« on: April 28, 2004, 02:45:30 PM »

Page 1

Introduction

Revelation chapter 12...Study from the KJV.

The Woman and the Manchild.

The Woman and the Manchild of Revelation chapter 12...The Rapture, the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...and the protection of the Woman in the wilderness...For the Elects sake, God will shorten the days to send his angels to gather them...and lead the Woman into the wilderness...Mid-Trib.

Why did Jesus say he would shorten the days? He said he would do it for the Elects sake...who are the Elect? His people, both Gentile and Jew. What does he shorten the days for? For the gathering of his people, the Elect. Not for his Second Coming... His Second Coming is to destroy the Antichrist and his Armys...if he didnt send his angels first, the Antichrist would destroy the Jews...Hitler wouldnt be able to hold a candle to this. Thats why we see the Woman, being protected from Satan mid point into the Tribulation.  

The Antichrist (WILL) rule for 3 1/2 years...God must protect the Jews or the Antichrist would kill every one of them, and they have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah...but i believe they will, after God pleads with them in the wilderness. As soon as the woman gave birth to the Manchild, (The Church?) we see Satan going full force to try and destroy her...because the Manchild was Raptured (Caught up to God) Sometime mid point. Then we see Satan going after the left behind Saints, who didnt make themselfs ready to
meet the bridegroom. And as a result, i think they have to give their lives for their faith. Or they may also be part of the (falling away),as we see in Daniel he says they fell, but it was not for their destruction...but that they would be tried and made white...Also the five wise virgins must get OIL
in their lamps, and go out to meet the bridegroom...

Now, the 24 Elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they seem to be Raptured saints...but even some Pre-Trib Theologians are beginning to discredit that
they are. Why? well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to ALL other versions of the Bible...Lets have a look.

KJV Version

Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10  And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall reign on the earth.

ASV Version

Rev 5:9  And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Rev 5:10  and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

BBE Version

Rev 5:9  And their voices are sounding in a new song, saying, It is right for you to take the book and to make it open: for you were put to death and have made an offering to God of your blood for men of every tribe, and language, and people, and nation,

Rev 5:10  And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are ruling on the earth.

CEV Version

Rev 5:9  Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.

Rev 5:10  You let them become kings and serve God as priests, and they will rule on earth."

ISV Version

Rev 5:9  They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

Rev 5:10  You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."

As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...So there must have been a mis- translation on these words...also there is no proof anywhere that these 24 Elders represent Raptured saints...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this interpretation. As we should know this wont work, because the Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation, (Jacobs Trouble,) not the beginning of the Seven year Tribulation. But where did these 24 Elders come from? since we see the four beast in the OT... but not the 24 Elders. Well when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints and likely prophets, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration...These 24 Elders could be Old Testament prophets, and even a part of the 12 Disciples who were promised to sit on thrones in his kingdom. As John didnt say who they were, or where they came from, we have to leave them just as they are...and that is just that they are 24 Elders in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there is no prophecies about them... And all other translations of the Bible, dont make them out to be part of the Rapture.

cont`d...
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2004, 02:55:44 PM »

Page 2

This takes a lot of study and prayer, and we need to be led by God for a correct answer, as to how this will unfold...this is as far as ive gotten over a Two year study.


My Study so far... Keep in mind the shortening of the days, And read it carefully...I may be incorrect on some of this, but who can say they have it all figured out?...also i think the Great Multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation, is this Manchild. Because this Manchild is going to be a Nation of People, who will be born in one day for God...also im still studying this.You must read Isaiah Chapter 66...to understand the Manchild of Rev 12. It is also a real good
endtime prophecy, of God setting up his kingdom.

The Manchild...the Children of Zion, (Jerusalem)...The Church?

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The Bible speaks about these birth pains over and over. Especially the Old testament prophecies. And these birth pains are not just for the Jews, these birth pains will bring forth the Manchild, who will rule with a rod of Iron.

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a Manchild, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was (caught up) unto God, and to his throne.

(Raptured from the Great Tribulation ) This is not a Secret Rapture, its right here in black and white...the word Rapture means caught up or carried away...the woman was also carried away to the wilderness... I think for years we have been looking for the Rapture, when Revelation Chapter 12 has it right in front of our face, and we have ignored it...because people thought this Manchild was Jesus                                      

A nation will be born in one day, when the Woman has her children, (The Great Multitude?). Will God make a nation with only 144.000 firstfruit Jews?...I doubt it.

Isa 66:5  Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall (appear) to your joy, and they shall be ashamed... (Here we have a problem for the Post-Trib view, or anyone who thinks God wont deliver his people).

Isa 66:6  A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a (Man Child).

Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as (Zion travailed), she brought forth her children.

Notice the Woman brought forth her children, A nation, Manchild...(Not Jesus).

The Womans children (Manchild)... the Woman is Jerusalem, and part of Gods people. Jerusalem will bring forth her children in travail... are you a child of this nation, who will be born in one day? If you are a child of God, then i think you will be. "Isaiah Chapter 66 and Revelation Chapter 12"  


The falling away.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed), the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God), shewing himself that he is God.  

Above we see the words falling away...most Pre-Tribers say this falling away is the Rapture...this makes no sence at all. Lets see what Daniel says.

Dan 11:35  And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

So we see, Daniel plainly says some will fall, to try them, and to make them white. Daniel seen the falling away and so did Paul...the falling away is certainly not the Rapture. But when you want a Rapture bad enough you can make one...even with a sentence...I can make a Rapture with the Two Witnesses if i try hard enough. But my study is not to try and make one, my study is to try and find one...And the Manchild of Revelation Chapter 12 is a Rapture...he was Caught up to God!

cont`d...
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2004, 03:05:33 PM »

Page 3

The Seal.

The Seal,Holy Spirit, Protection from Gods Wrath, (Here also is a problem for Pre-Wrath) ...I think the new name of God, will be given to all saints sometime after the Rapture. Just like in Egypt, God didnt take his people out... instead he made them put blood on the door post of their houses, for protection of his wrath on Egypt. The blood of Jesus is our Seal...or our house protection (Body). If there is any of Gods wrath before the Rapture, it will not come near his people. Their Sealed...see below

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this Seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down
out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 3:13  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The 144.000 Jews, firstfruits of Gods harvest. Some say they will Evangelize the world?...I`d like to know where it says that?...Anyway my study is more on this Manchild and Woman.

144.000 Jews... virgins... given a (Seal) for protection from Gods Wrath.

Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Christ standing on mount Sion...John only seen the 144.000 and not the ones who came out of the Great Tribulation ...These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. The church must be in this group of firstfruits, or we have a big problem for (The Pre-Trib view)...God is not a bad farmer, when you have a crop... you always take the firstfruits first. The end of the world is the Harvest...the angels will come to take the
firstfruits first. No Harvester can take his firstfruits twice.


Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 14:2  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Harvest.

Gods endtimes Harvest... Sometime after the Antichrist is revealed, here John sees the appearing of Christ, or someone like him on a cloud...no (horse), the harvest is ripe...then God takes his firstfruits...The dead in Christ are not raised here.
 
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the (harvest) of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The Church...Manchild? Very possible.

Raptured Church...wise virgins,palms in their hands, Saying Salvation to our God ...(notice this group has palms in their hands)...while the beheaded saints have harps.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a Great Multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of (Great Tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Five wise virgins, with OIL in their lamps?...Mid-Trib.They came out of Great Tribulation... Jacobs Trouble, Satans Wrath, not the Seven year Tribulation. These also have a Seal for protection, from Gods Wrath ...Holy Spirit for redemption.

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Five wise five foolish

Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat 25:2  And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Mat 25:3  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Mat 25:4  But the wise (took oil) in their vessels with their lamps.

Mat 25:5  While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a (cry made), Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Who would make this cry? the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him? The only ones i know who could, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation. If they are prophets then Gods people better listen to them..here is an Old Testament prophecy of these Two Witnesses.

Zec 4:11  Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Zec 4:12  And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden (oil out of themselves)?

Zec 4:13  And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

Zec 4:14  Then said he, These are the (two anointed ones), that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Notice they empty Oil out of themselves...and the wise virgins get Oil...something to think about. Also we see the wise virgins, are told, or see, that the bridegroom is coming, a (cry) was made...so we see that the coming of the lord is not Imminent...the wise are gonna know hes coming. like
Daniel said, the wise will understand...but the wicked will not. As in the days of Noah? yes Noah knew the flood was coming! But the wicked did not. As in the days of Lot? same thing, Lot knew God was going to destroy Sodom...so
we see the Rapture is not Imminent, Gods people are not going to be in darkness, a (Cry) will be made to go out and meet the bridegroom!...and the Wise virgins will obey it. I think im correct on this...Also Jesus gave signs of his coming...there is no way his people will not know that hes coming. We will not know the day or the hour...but we will know hes coming. He said when you see these things come to pass, lift up your heads...because its time to be redeemed.

Constantly im hearing, this is for the Jews...No- No- No- and
No! The book of Revelation was written for the Church, and given to the Church, not the Jews...the Jews dont even read the New Testament. Actually its for Jew and Gentile, if they are part of the Body of Christ. Heres proof that the Body of Christ will know hes coming...below

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Therefore let us not sleep? The five foolish virgins were asleep.
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2004, 03:18:28 PM »

Page 4

Church Tribulation.

Act 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.  

That we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God? Some say the Church will not suffer any tribulation. That is a very deceptive...the above verse proves that. But when trouble comes God will make a way out. But
remember tribulation is not Gods wrath.

God in Egypt.

Did God take the children of Israel out of Egypt Imminently?...NO, he said he heard their crys, their travail, God is likely going to take his Church when the cry out to him in travail...and let me say, the first half of the tribulation is going to make them cry out to God. A lot of times God waited
the last minute to show his Power and Glory!...go out to meet the bridegroom.

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his (own elect), which (cry day and night) unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them (speedily). Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The Martyrs.

Beheaded saints... (harps of God in their hands, not palms)...sing the song of Moses, and stand on the sea of glass...So we see these are different than the Great Multitude that came out of Great Tribulation.

Rev 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 15:3  And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Rev 15:4  Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The Woman in the wilderness goes with these saints, and the rest of the dead in Christ... at the Last Trump. This is the first resurrection...The Manchild is gone, he was Caught up to God...Raptured.

The Woman.

The Woman who had the Manchild...grafted back in Jews. Also Mid-Trib... and she will be Alive and remain on earth, till the Second Coming...We who are alive and remain at his coming...Resurrection, Last Trump. Remember, the days
were shortend for the gathering of the Elect, by Angels... Paul did see the shortening of the days, as you will see later. God sends his angels twice...once for the protection of the Elect, (the Woman and the Manchild) and then with a Trumpet at His Second Coming, to take the Dead in Christ and the Woman in the wilderness, the ones who are Alive and remain.

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two (wings of a great eagle), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,(Protected by God in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years), from the face of the serpent...Satan, Antichrist.

wings of a great eagle? what are these wings? Jesus tells us who these wings belong to...Below.

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Hes calling his Angels eagles...but remember the shortening of the days.

Exo 19:4  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

God pleads with the Jews of this Woman in the wilderness...Likely to accept their Messiah. And this is also where they will likely mourn for him whom they have pierced...as we see below, he will talk to them face to face.

Ezekiel 20:33  As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

Eze 20:34  And I will bring you out from the people, and will (gather) you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

Eze 20:35  And I will bring you into the (wilderness) of the people, and there will I plead with you (face to face).

Eze 20:36  Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

And will (gather) you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a (mighty hand), and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

God will gather and lead these Jews, for protection from the Wrath of Satan by angels...at the Mid Point of the
Tribulation. Why did i say lead? Because some of these Jews are in Israel, and are not scattered into other countries. Remember what Jesus said...

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...wilderness...(The Woman).

Micheal Stands up.

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: (Michael) and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Daniel 12:1  And at that time shall (Michael) stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be (delivered), every one that shall be
found (written in the book).

Written in the book? Are only the Jews written in the book? I dont think so.

Again we see Revelation Chapter 12...is where (Michael) stands up, for Gods people,and at that time Gods people shall be delivered...from the Great Tribulation, last 3 1/2 years...Jacobs Trouble. Some would like to say the Church is more important to God,and this is only for the Jews...well they should know by now, that the Jews are going to be part of the Church, when they are grafted back in... God is no respector of persons. Plus the Antichrist is going to be a worldwide persecuter, not just on Israel...Jacobs Trouble will be a worldwide event...not just for the Jews. All the world is
going to have to deal with the Antichrist, one way or another... And he must be revealed before our gathering unto God, and that likely DONT happen till sometime Mid-Trib, when he sets up the Idol...here Paul sees the (gathering)
of the Elect... The shortening of the days (The Manchild and the Woman)...See below

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, (by) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (AND) by our gathering together unto him),

2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed), the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God), shewing himself that he is God.  

He also seen the Second coming...below as well, where the dead in Christ are raised and the ones who are (Alive and remain)... the Woman (Jews) in the wilderness. So there are two Raptures...one for the gathering of the Manchild, plus protection for the Woman in the wilderness. Then one for the
dead in Christ, and the Jews in the wilderness(Woman) who were left on earth... for his Second Coming...At the Last Trump.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are (alive and remain) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2004, 03:19:55 PM »

End Notes

Now i will not debate any of this...old habits die hard. And a great deal of study must be done with prayer, to understand any of these prophecies. I used to be Pre-Trib, untill i seen the 144.000 being the firstfruits of the endtimes harvest...Pre-Trib dont fit here. Also the Manchild being Raptured Mid-Trib. (This Manchild must be understood), because Isaiah 66 says hes not Jesus. The Church must be Raptured with these firstfruits as well, or the Church is not part of the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...Plain and
simple. As well as the Post-Trib view, Read Isaiah 66...the prophet says God is going to (Appear) to our joy, and they will be ashamed. He also says this will be the Glory of the Gentiles.

Like i said before, i think the Rapture is staring us right in the face, at Revelation Chapter 12...This Manchild will be born a nation for God in one day, when he is Caught Up to God...RAPTURED. Jesus wasnt Caught up to God as soon as he was born...and the Saints will rule with a rod of iron along with Christ...they will be Kings and Priest!  

Isa 66:14  And when ye see this, your heart shall (rejoice), and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the (hand of the LORD) shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

I may try to answer some questions on this.. but no debate. And if not... my last words concerning this would be as The Lords...Pray always that ye may be worthy to escape all these things, and stand before the Son of Man.
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2004, 01:43:07 AM »

I believe that the Rapture will happen after the killing of the two witnesses. When the revenge of the anti-christ is full if it.  Grin
What better time when the trib. saints, are under percution. Crying the loudest for God.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 01:44:13 AM by DreamWeaver » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2004, 12:12:39 AM »

 Hi AJ.
Quote
As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...So there must have been a mis- translation on these words...also there is no proof anywhere that these 24 Elders represent Raptured saints...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this interpretation. As we should know this wont work, because the Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation, (Jacobs Trouble,) not the beginning of the Seven year Tribulation. But where did these 24 Elders come from? since we see the four beast in the OT... but not the 24 Elders. Well when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints and likely prophets, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration...These 24 Elders could be Old Testament prophets, and even a part of the 12 Disciples who were promised to sit on thrones in his kingdom. As John didnt say who they were, or where they came from, we have to leave them just as they are...and that is just that they are 24 Elders in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there is no prophecies about them... And all other translations of the Bible, dont make them out to be part of the Rapture.


 You are right, there is no 100% identity about who these twenty four elders are. But further on in Revelation 21:14 there is a clue as to the identity of twelve of them...

 Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  

 So, it's safe to assume that these are...twelve Old Testament & twelve New Testament elders. There are twenty four of them, and it would be an amazing and confusing coincidence if these twenty four where twenty four "other" elders wouldn't it?

 Now, you make a fairly good point about "the Transfiguration" however, as you also point out "and even a part of the 12 Disciples who were promised to sit on thrones in his kingdom" You understand that it could only be "a part" at best, of the twelve desciples, because the entire twelve could only be there if they had been Raptured already.

 Now here's where it gets interesting....

 Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 "A door was opened in Heaven" Clearly, there is either something coming to, or going out from Heaven. Otherwise, why is the door opened?

 "and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me" When did John hear this "first voice" which sounded like a trumpet?  He first head this voice in Rev 1:10 ...

 Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  

 Who's voice was it?

 Rev 1:11 Saying, I am  : and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.  

 Clearly, John hears God's voice. God speaks to John in a powerful voice which John describes as a trumpet blast. We know it is God because He identifies Himself as "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"

  Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

  So John hears God's voice for the second time and God says... "come up hither" God "Raptures" John up to heaven.

 Look closely at the verse again...

 Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 It's obvious that something happened (Rapture) because God is now saying that He must show John what will happen from then on. So this sets the timeline... God called John up (Raptured him) then reveals to John the rest of His Revelation.

 If that doesn't get you thinking then look at the following...  

 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 Whoever these twenty four are, it is clear that they are...

A) In Heaven at Rev 4

B) They are clothed in white raiment at Rev 4

C) They are wearing crowns of gold on their heads at Rev 4

 It's obvious that they have been through the Bema Judgement and received their rewards and been cleansed at Rev 4. They had to have been Raptured in order to be judged and receive their rewards and been cleansed.

 Finally you said...

 
Quote
So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this interpretation.


 Absolutely right. That doesn't work for the reasons you pointed out. There are many who will miss the Rapture and during the Tribulation and Wrath, they will give their lives to Jesus, and draw the wrath of satan upon themselves. Many will be beheaded, and these are the saints depicted in the following verses...

 Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  


 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.  

 I know you're not interested in debateing my friend, I thought I'd add to the discussion all the same.

Take care...

Bronzesnake
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2004, 01:05:24 PM »

Hi Bronzesnake.

Well we see John being called up to heaven to write the book of this prophecy...and he was told to write what would come to pass here after...here after just means the future, and we see that this book is the future of what will happen to Gods people in the end times.

Now when Jesus rose from the dead the bible says he led the captives free...and gave gifts to men, The 24 elders if they were OT prophets that rose when Jesus did ,would probably have recieved these gifts. Why? because they were resurrected, and given new bodys... thats why i say we need to leave them just as they are. I need to be careful not to try and make Raptures every time i see someone being caught up to God...it needs to fit with at least some of the OT prophecies...because the OT prophets also seen the end times. And this manchild and woman are in the OT prophecies , the two witnesses are also in the OT...even the four horsemen are in the OT. We cant just use this book to interpret this book, we need to look at all the prophets to get a better understanding. And of the words of Jesus as well about the end times. Its like what happend to Christ, the Jews missed it because they failed to look at the prophecies of his first coming...he told them to search the scriptures but they refused...then when one of them finally understood something about Christ, that he was to die for the people ,they tried to kill him to fulfill the prophecy...sad but true. Same thing happened with John the Baptist, they were looking for Elijah, but missed the prophecy of the one crying in the wilderness... make straight the way of the Lord. As i said, im not trying to make a Rapture, im trying to find one...we need to use all the end time prophecies to do this. Plus this manchild is definitely a Rapture.

God bless
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2004, 03:17:47 PM »

AJ: excellent writing, and the fact that you wittness that you were once a pre-tribber, and now found out that it's at least 3.5 years from the truth is a powerfull testimony and a very needed one in this forum.
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2004, 12:34:36 AM »

AJ: excellent writing, and the fact that you wittness that you were once a pre-tribber, and now found out that it's at least 3.5 years from the truth is a powerfull testimony and a very needed one in this forum.
I have to agree with you, twobombs. I myself have always believe that the Rapture will come, in the mid of tribulation.
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2004, 04:01:31 AM »

1st Corinthians 15:51-56
51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.
If you do not agree that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is the same last trumpet in Revelation, then why did Paul associate the term last trumpet as a description for defining a period of time when rapture is to occur?
In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection here of believers otherwise he would not use the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age. With those things in mind lets look at God's Word some more.
Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And swore by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be no more delay 7 But in the days of the trump of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.


To be contuned
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2004, 04:06:27 AM »

Now here in Revelation 10 verse 7 we see the Word "Mystery" and the promise that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet the Mystery of God would be fulfilled. We know the 7th angel in Revelation is the same one who blows the 7th trump. Here in Revelation 10:7 is only the promise, the angel is not sounding it here. Now lets look further into the Word of God.

Revelation 11:15-18

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give you thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which is, and was, and are to come; because you have taken to thee your great power, and has begun to reign. 18 And the nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and that you should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Now in the scripture above we have the 7th Angel sounding his trumpet. Notice that the it says here in verse 18; "your wrath has come" speaking of God's wrath and also "the time of the dead that they should be judged." We know these are believers because it says the servants, the prophets and the saints. Also rewards are spoken about. You only give rewards to children in the kingdom. This is the resurrection Paul is talking about in 1st Corinthians. It occurs at the blowing of the Last trump which is blown by the 7th angel. We also know these are believers in Jesus because the white thrown judgment resurrection for the rest of the dead, does not occur until Revelation 20.

Revelation 14:13-20

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, (Rapture starts here ) Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time is come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (God's Wrath starts here after church is removed ) 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Now this is where Rapture actually takes place, Rev 14:14-16 is the Rapture. This is the 1st sickle where Jesus comes and takes his Church out of the world and out of his impending wrath. Notice the word Harvest is used, Jesus also uses the word Harvest when explaining the tares and the wheat in Matthew. Now the next sickle (2nd Sickle) starts in 14:17-20. This is a wrath sickle. The 1st sickle is a Harvest sickle (Rapture). Be sure not to confuse these two sickles. Once again the 1st sickle in Revelation 14:14-16 is the Rapture. The second sickle in Revelation 14:17-20 is a wrath sickle. The Bowl judgments begin right after this second sickle in chapter 14:17-20. As Jesus promised and Apostle Paul spoke, Jesus delivers us out of his wrath. Exactly as Paul was instructed and wrote to us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Go in Peace with God
DW
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2004, 04:12:16 AM »

As you can see, there is more support for a mid-trib Rapture then a pre-trib Rapture.

Go in Peace with God
DW
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2004, 12:09:47 AM »

AJ: excellent writing, and the fact that you wittness that you were once a pre-tribber, and now found out that it's at least 3.5 years from the truth is a powerfull testimony and a very needed one in this forum.

Thanks for the complement...and Glory to God.

God bless you brother
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2004, 09:17:50 AM »

As you can see, there is more support for a mid-trib Rapture then a pre-trib Rapture.

Go in Peace with God
DW

 You obviously haven't read Paul2's exhaustive work on pre-trib. In any case, does more always equal the truth? If that's the case, then I guess all those accusers at Jesus' trial were right. I mean, they had loads of support and accusatorial evidence stacked against Jesus, and Jesus didn't say a word.

Not only is there far more on this forum to support pre-trib, the evidence for pre-trib stands up to a far superior standard than any other theory. I came to my conclusions for pre-trib by going over every speck of biblical evidence I could get hold of, and there's lots out there. I was only interested in the truth, why should I care if it was pre, mid, post pre-wrath, pre-trib etc? I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.

 take care my friends...

Bronzesnake.
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