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Shylynne
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2004, 12:11:55 PM »

In any case, does more always equal the truth? If that's the case, then I guess all those accusers at Jesus' trial were right. I mean, they had loads of support and accusatorial evidence stacked against Jesus, and Jesus didn't say a word

Terrible anology! Jesus accusers wer`nt using the Word of God, they were inspired by satan.

Not only is there far more on this forum to support pre-trib, the evidence for pre-trib stands up to a far superior standard than any other theory.

Contradictory by your own terms, for you said more support does`nt equal truth, so the very arguement you just used against anothers stance, you used to support your own.

I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.


Yourself and "many others" believing it does`nt make it truth, nor make it obvious.  God`s Word supports God`s Word, and is interpreted thereby, and isn`t made "truth" by a multitude of private interpretations, this is what it means to be  truly following after God`s truth instead of following the "many".

Oh and God`s truth isn`t about what makes more sence, what sounds better, nor about what we want, it IS about,  IT IS  WRITTEN.

Carry on.

  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2004, 02:35:02 AM »

Paul2's work is very interesting, yet is mainly applauded by pre-tribbers confirming their beliefs.

I find paul2's work exaustive yet not convincing enough, not because of I might not like the guy (au contraire) , or his postings, but because it skips very important issues. Those issues are for example the Jewish Feasts, his inspiration mainly comes from the book of Revelation a book that I use for confirmation, not for starters.

One of the most obvious differences is in one of the trumpets in Revelation wich he sees as the trumpet that Paul describes in 1Thes 4-16/17. Even how lengthy his work has become, this exclusion of the Jewish Feasts is to me completely missing in his investigation.

I also see Dan 12:1 missing, which is pointed out as the begining of the Trib and does not mention any rapture; instead it mentiones the rapture/salvation 1290 days later.

Dan 12:1   And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:11   And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It doesn't get any easier then this, I presume. No lengthy posts, not nessesary.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2004, 02:36:21 AM by twobombs » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2004, 04:03:27 AM »

Oh and God`s truth isn`t about what makes more sence, what sounds better, nor about what we want, it IS about,  IT IS  WRITTEN.

Carry on.

  Roll Eyes


Amen, Shylynne
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2004, 01:18:46 PM »

My quote..
In any case, does more always equal the truth? If that's the case, then I guess all those accusers at Jesus' trial were right. I mean, they had loads of support and accusatorial evidence stacked against Jesus, and Jesus didn't say a word

shy response..
Quote
Terrible anology! Jesus accusers wer`nt using the Word of God, they were inspired by satan.

First of all...why so angry? I was debating with AJ and DW, no one was being rude or getting hyper, and out of the blue I get sideswiped. I wouldn't mind if you had actually added to the topic, but this is plain and simply an outright attack.

 However...Your right, kind if.. it was an "analogy" I wasn't making a direct comparison. I suspect my point got across to the person I was actually debating with.

My quote...
Not only is there far more on this forum to support pre-trib, the evidence for pre-trib stands up to a far superior standard than any other theory.

 shy response...
Quote
Contradictory by your own terms, for you said more support does`nt equal truth, so the very arguement you just used against anothers stance, you used to support your own.


 Wow!  Try calming down a bit and read it again...I did not say more support does`nt equal truth... I said "does more always equal the truth?" There is a huge difference between the two.

My quote...
I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.

shy response...
Quote
Yourself and "many others" believing it does`nt make it truth, nor make it obvious.  God`s Word supports God`s Word, and is interpreted thereby, and isn`t made "truth" by a multitude of private interpretations, this is what it means to be  truly following after God`s truth instead of following the "many".

Oh and God`s truth isn`t about what makes more sence, what sounds better, nor about what we want, it IS about,  IT IS  WRITTEN.

Carry on.

 So...you have God's truth and I don't? You try to make it appear as though I just made up the pre-trib rapture all by myself without studying God's Word at all. We (Christians) all read the Bible as much as possible in order to understand what God expects of us, and what we can expect from God. There are also many prophecies in the Bible, we struggle to understand these as well. So by reading the bible, by discussing the Bible among ourselves, and by attending a Bible believing church we all hope to get a good understanding of God's Word. There are, however, limitations as to how much of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God's Word that we can really expect to grasp. Some of us, for example, have limited intellectual abilities and can only grasp so much, others have an obvious distorted view of the Bible, and we must all beware not to fall into any "cultist" traps, as there are many out there. In the case where two faithful, Bible believing Christians disagree on a non Heaven & Hell issue such as the timing of the Rapture, then I feel like there is far too much venom and anger going on between Christians in certain circumstances such as this one.

 So I have spoken my mind with a humble, honest attitude and now I will switch back to my own threads and others where this type of needless attack isn't going on.

Take care Shylynne my sister.

Bronzesnake (Pretriber)
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Shammu
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2004, 01:49:53 PM »

Bronzesnake, I spent most of yesterday reading over the pre-trib Rapture by Paul........ It is very well done but missing a few points.
I stated earlier in my posts.
1st Corinthians 15:51-56
51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.
If you do not agree that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is the same last trumpet in Revelation, then why did Paul associate the term last trumpet as a description for defining a period of time when rapture is to occur?
In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection here of believers otherwise he would not use the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age.
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Shylynne
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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2004, 06:15:20 PM »


First of all...why so angry? I was debating with AJ and DW, no one was being rude or getting hyper, and out of the blue I get sideswiped. I wouldn't mind if you had actually added to the topic, but this is plain and simply an outright attack.

Perhaps you should read my post again Bronze, there`s no anger there, nor was it meant as an attack, i`m sorry you viewed it as such, I was merely interjecting my view, and I think I am as free to do that anytime on a public forum as you are.
 
Quote
However...Your right, kind if.. it was an "analogy" I wasn't making a direct comparison. I suspect my point got across to the person I was actually debating with.

Yes you made a direct comparison, and unfairly so.

 
Quote
Wow!  Try calming down a bit and read it again...I did not say more support does`nt equal truth... I said "does more always equal the truth?" There is a huge difference between the two.

I am cool as a cucumber, but huge difference? lol
Can`t you see you used the "more don`t equal truth" to disprove what you did`nt agree with, yet used the same arguement to support your own statement?

Quote
So...you have God's truth and I don't? You try to make it appear as though I just made up the pre-trib rapture all by myself without studying God's Word at all.

Where did I say I have God`s truth and you dont?
I was trying to make a point, one you seem to have missed entirely.  You said I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.
...and I responded to that statement by saying yourself and many others believing something does`nt make it an obvious truth.  

Quote
So I have spoken my mind with a humble, honest attitude and now I will switch back to my own threads and others where this type of needless attack isn't going on.

Now for some humor...if you call a disagreement an attack...then for your sake I hope pre-trib is the way it`ll go  Undecided  I think you thought you were eating humble pie and chomped into a chunk of  meat by mistake  Grin  Moral of that story is open your eyes before you byte  Grin



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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2004, 12:33:45 PM »

Bronzesnake, I spent most of yesterday reading over the pre-trib Rapture by Paul........ It is very well done but missing a few points.
I stated earlier in my posts.
1st Corinthians 15:51-56
51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.
If you do not agree that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is the same last trumpet in Revelation, then why did Paul associate the term last trumpet as a description for defining a period of time when rapture is to occur?
In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection here of believers otherwise he would not use the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age.

 Hello DW.
The following verses are very specific as to what trump is being blown at the time of the Rapture.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 These verses are very clearly Rapture verses and you'll notice who is sounding the trump...it's God, not an angel.

If you read...  
 Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 John identifies the trumpet in Rev 4:1 by referring back to "the first voice which I heard" the first voice which he heard was God's, so is this second "trumpet' This second trumpet sounds like speech, and speaks the words.."Come up hither" (Rapture) This is the final time you will find God's trumpet being sounded in Revelation, after that final sounding of God's trump the remaining trumpet blasts are sounded exclusively by angels.


 Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

 This is the result of hearing God's final trumpet...John finds himself in spirit form, in Heaven. How much more plain does it get DW?

 Take care my friend...

Bronzesnake.
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AJ
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2004, 01:34:29 PM »

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with A SHOUT, WITH the VOICE of the archangel, and with the trump of God

A shout?... whos shout?

The shouting is the voice of the archangel, and the archangel is using the trump of God...Simple. Theres an answer for everything If you read between the lines brother. Dont you think God can give this trumpet to the angel?... voice of the archangel is the key to this shout. We also see that Christ has a sword in his mouth not a trumpet, at his second coming... probably not a real sword but you know what i mean...Plus God uses his angels for a lot of things...thats what their there for, Still not debating Smiley

EDIT: had to edit to make this more understandable.

God bless you brother
« Last Edit: May 14, 2004, 02:26:33 PM by AJ » Logged
Eddielee
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2004, 03:58:21 PM »

The trumpet is blown by God:

Zechariah 9:14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save them on that day
as the flock of his people.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2004, 12:01:18 AM »

The trumpet is blown by God?

So thier going to destroy and overcome with slingstones as well?

Interesting Smiley Sometimes literal..., dont work with prophecy.

God bless  




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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2004, 03:47:40 AM »

From Daniel 12:10-12
 
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.  
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

This puts the rapture about mid-trib.
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2004, 02:28:43 AM »

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with A SHOUT, WITH the VOICE of the archangel, and with the trump of God

A shout?... whos shout?

The shouting is the voice of the archangel, and the archangel is using the trump of God...Simple. Theres an answer for everything If you read between the lines brother. Dont you think God can give this trumpet to the angel?... voice of the archangel is the key to this shout. We also see that Christ has a sword in his mouth not a trumpet, at his second coming... probably not a real sword but you know what i mean...Plus God uses his angels for a lot of things...thats what their there for, Still not debating Smiley

EDIT: had to edit to make this more understandable.

God bless you brother

 It seems like you are the one reading between the lines my friend. It does not say that God gave the trumpet to an archangel, you assumed that. As far as Christ having a sword in his mouth at His second coming...we're not talking about the second coming are we? we're talking about the rapture.

 The verse clearly states that God appears with a shout. The shout comes from the archangel and with the trump of God. If the archangel was sounding God's trump, the verse would follow in the same grammatical context as it did while identifying where the shout came from..
For example;

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 Notice how different things are when you take the word and out? In this example the archangel does in fact seem to be sounding the trump of God.

Let's try something else...

 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout[/b], and with the voice of the archangel,

 When the word and is added in this instance, it becomes two entities shouting; God and the archangel.


 So when you read the verse in grammatical context it is clear that God is sounding His trump, not the archangel.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 John clearly stated that God's voice sounded like a trumpet in verse Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 So  1Th 4:16 specifies with the trump of God for a reason. It is God's trump not an archangel. The verse also is very specific about the role of the archangel who is depicted shouting. In every other instance in Revelation where a trumpet is being blown the Bible very specifically identifies angels sounding them, nowhere else besides 1Th 4:16 will you find any reference to God's trump being sounded.  

 Take care my friend.
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AJ
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2004, 02:43:44 PM »

It does not say that God gave the trumpet to an archangel?

Read all the prophecies brother...not just little pieces here and there.

Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

In Revelation these angels get their trumpets from God...are we not talking about the return of Christ? If we are talking about the last trump... we are talking about the Second Coming. Revelation is just that... the revealing of his return and the Rapture. I know the Rapture is not the Second Coming... its the gathering of the Elect, the shortning of the days, read my study again...i also dont see a trumpet at the Rapture of the Manchild. But im not going to explain it again.


Rev 8:13  And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Voices of the trumpet of the three angels...Voices? Yet to sound?

These are the last three angels...we should know there are Seven.

We see these voices or voice... are the angels or angel sounding the trumpet/trumpets.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with A SHOUT, WITH the VOICE of the archangel, and with the trump of God (This is the Second Coming if you will accept it or not)

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The LAST TRUMP is given to the archangel...this is when the mystery of God will be finished.

Rev 10:7  But in the days of the VOICE of the seventh angel, when HE shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the mystery of God that he declared to the prophets, that will be finished?...it is the coming of his kingdom, and that dont happen till the LAST TRUMP.

Rev 11:15  And the (seventh angel sounded); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So will the Saints reign with him...this is it, the Last Trump
where the dead in Christ will be raised... and we who are alive and remain will be taken into his kingdom.

And the seventh angel sounded?...you better believe it Smiley

Amen

God bless you
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 03:16:51 PM by AJ » Logged
Bronzesnake
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« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2004, 08:46:45 PM »

Quote
It does not say that God gave the trumpet to an archangel?

Read all the prophecies brother...not just little pieces here and there.

Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


 We're not discussing Rev 8 my friend. We're discussing 1Th 4:16 You're making it appear as though I don't believe any trumps are blown by angels. Please re-read this portion from my last post...

 So  1Th 4:16 specifies with the trump of God for a reason. It is God's trump not an archangel. The verse also is very specific about the role of the archangel who is depicted shouting. In every other instance in Revelation where a trumpet is being blown the Bible very specifically identifies angels sounding them, nowhere else besides 1Th 4:16 will you find any reference to God's trump being sounded


Quote
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with A SHOUT, WITH the VOICE of the archangel, and with the trump of God (This is the Second Coming if you will accept it or not)

 Oh really? You left out a very important portion of those RAPTURE verses my friend. Add the next verse...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 So in your mind, when Jesus returns at the second coming, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those of us which are alive at that time will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air? What is the purpose of this? why not just meet Christ here on earth? Why would we get shuttled up into the sky only to turn around and come right back to fight satan and his minions?


Take a look at the following "second coming" verses...


 Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  

 Here's John, in Heaven and who is he talking too? Is it Jesus? no. Is it an angel? no. It's a man "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus" What is a man doing in Heaven at this time? This means that the Rapture has already taken place before the second coming.


 Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  


 Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  


 Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  


 Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

 These armies are comprised of Raptured saints. These saints were not whisked up into the clouds to meet Jesus only to turn around and descend on earth again. These armies were in Heaven they came out of Heaven following Jesus upon white horses.

 The rapture happens at Rev 4 which corresponds with 1Th 4:16 which describes the Rapture event in detail.
 God sounds His last trump and first, the dead in Christ rise up to the sky followed immediately by those Christians who are alive at that time  to meet Jesus in the clouds. From there we obviously go straight to Heaven to wait for the remaining saints who are saved during the wrath/tribulation. When the final saints are martyred we return from Heaven with Jesus back to earth.

 I'm not inventing anything, everything I have stated is in the scriptures "if you will accept it or not"  Wink

 Take care my friend.


 


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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2004, 08:50:41 PM »

AJ.

 Could you please clairify exactly when you believe the Rapture takes place, and please give me all relative verses.
 I'm not exactly sure what your beliefs are in relation to the timeline.

Thanks my friend.

 PS. Let me just add that I am enjoying our discussions. I accept that we Christians have many differing opinions on a wide variety of issues, which is really understandable when we consider that we're trying to understand God.

 Bronzesnake.
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