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Introduction

Revelation chapter 12...Study from the KJV.

The Woman and the Manchild.

The Woman and the Manchild of Revelation chapter 12...The Rapture, the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...and the protection of the Woman in the wilderness...For the Elects sake, God will shorten the days to send his angels to gather them...and lead the Woman into the wilderness...Mid-Trib.

Why did Jesus say he would shorten the days? He said he would do it for the Elects sake...who are the Elect? His people, both Gentile and Jew. What does he shorten the days for? For the gathering of his people, the Elect. Not for his Second Coming... His Second Coming is to destroy the Antichrist and his Armys...if he didnt send his angels first, the Antichrist would destroy the Jews...Hitler wouldnt be able to hold a candle to this. Thats why we see the Woman, being protected from Satan mid point into the Tribulation.  

The Antichrist (WILL) rule for 3 1/2 years...God must protect the Jews or the Antichrist would kill every one of them, and they have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah...but i believe they will, after God pleads with them in the wilderness. As soon as the woman gave birth to the Manchild, (The Church?) we see Satan going full force to try and destroy her...because the Manchild was Raptured (Caught up to God) Sometime mid point. Then we see Satan going after the left behind Saints, who didnt make themselfs ready to
meet the bridegroom. And as a result, i think they have to give their lives for their faith. Or they may also be part of the (falling away),as we see in Daniel he says they fell, but it was not for their destruction...but that they would be tried and made white...Also the five wise virgins must get OIL
in their lamps, and go out to meet the bridegroom...

Now, the 24 Elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they seem to be Raptured saints...but even some Pre-Trib Theologians are beginning to discredit that
they are. Why? well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to ALL other versions of the Bible...Lets have a look.

KJV Version

Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10  And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall reign on the earth.

ASV Version

Rev 5:9  And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Rev 5:10  and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

BBE Version

Rev 5:9  And their voices are sounding in a new song, saying, It is right for you to take the book and to make it open: for you were put to death and have made an offering to God of your blood for men of every tribe, and language, and people, and nation,

Rev 5:10  And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are ruling on the earth.

CEV Version

Rev 5:9  Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.

Rev 5:10  You let them become kings and serve God as priests, and they will rule on earth."

ISV Version

Rev 5:9  They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

Rev 5:10  You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."

As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...So there must have been a mis- translation on these words...also there is no proof anywhere that these 24 Elders represent Raptured saints...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this interpretation. As we should know this wont work, because the Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation, (Jacobs Trouble,) not the beginning of the Seven year Tribulation. But where did these 24 Elders come from? since we see the four beast in the OT... but not the 24 Elders. Well when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints and likely prophets, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration...These 24 Elders could be Old Testament prophets, and even a part of the 12 Disciples who were promised to sit on thrones in his kingdom. As John didnt say who they were, or where they came from, we have to leave them just as they are...and that is just that they are 24 Elders in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there is no prophecies about them... And all other translations of the Bible, dont make them out to be part of the Rapture.

cont`d...

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This takes a lot of study and prayer, and we need to be led by God for a correct answer, as to how this will unfold...this is as far as ive gotten over a Two year study.


My Study so far... Keep in mind the shortening of the days, And read it carefully...I may be incorrect on some of this, but who can say they have it all figured out?...also i think the Great Multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation, is this Manchild. Because this Manchild is going to be a Nation of People, who will be born in one day for God...also im still studying this.You must read Isaiah Chapter 66...to understand the Manchild of Rev 12. It is also a real good
endtime prophecy, of God setting up his kingdom.

The Manchild...the Children of Zion, (Jerusalem)...The Church?

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The Bible speaks about these birth pains over and over. Especially the Old testament prophecies. And these birth pains are not just for the Jews, these birth pains will bring forth the Manchild, who will rule with a rod of Iron.

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a Manchild, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was (caught up) unto God, and to his throne.

(Raptured from the Great Tribulation ) This is not a Secret Rapture, its right here in black and white...the word Rapture means caught up or carried away...the woman was also carried away to the wilderness... I think for years we have been looking for the Rapture, when Revelation Chapter 12 has it right in front of our face, and we have ignored it...because people thought this Manchild was Jesus                                      

A nation will be born in one day, when the Woman has her children, (The Great Multitude?). Will God make a nation with only 144.000 firstfruit Jews?...I doubt it.

Isa 66:5  Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall (appear) to your joy, and they shall be ashamed... (Here we have a problem for the Post-Trib view, or anyone who thinks God wont deliver his people).

Isa 66:6  A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a (Man Child).

Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as (Zion travailed), she brought forth her children.

Notice the Woman brought forth her children, A nation, Manchild...(Not Jesus).

The Womans children (Manchild)... the Woman is Jerusalem, and part of Gods people. Jerusalem will bring forth her children in travail... are you a child of this nation, who will be born in one day? If you are a child of God, then i think you will be. "Isaiah Chapter 66 and Revelation Chapter 12"  


The falling away.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed), the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God), shewing himself that he is God.  

Above we see the words falling away...most Pre-Tribers say this falling away is the Rapture...this makes no sence at all. Lets see what Daniel says.

Dan 11:35  And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

So we see, Daniel plainly says some will fall, to try them, and to make them white. Daniel seen the falling away and so did Paul...the falling away is certainly not the Rapture. But when you want a Rapture bad enough you can make one...even with a sentence...I can make a Rapture with the Two Witnesses if i try hard enough. But my study is not to try and make one, my study is to try and find one...And the Manchild of Revelation Chapter 12 is a Rapture...he was Caught up to God!

cont`d...

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The Seal.

The Seal,Holy Spirit, Protection from Gods Wrath, (Here also is a problem for Pre-Wrath) ...I think the new name of God, will be given to all saints sometime after the Rapture. Just like in Egypt, God didnt take his people out... instead he made them put blood on the door post of their houses, for protection of his wrath on Egypt. The blood of Jesus is our Seal...or our house protection (Body). If there is any of Gods wrath before the Rapture, it will not come near his people. Their Sealed...see below

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this Seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down
out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 3:13  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The 144.000 Jews, firstfruits of Gods harvest. Some say they will Evangelize the world?...I`d like to know where it says that?...Anyway my study is more on this Manchild and Woman.

144.000 Jews... virgins... given a (Seal) for protection from Gods Wrath.

Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Christ standing on mount Sion...John only seen the 144.000 and not the ones who came out of the Great Tribulation ...These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. The church must be in this group of firstfruits, or we have a big problem for (The Pre-Trib view)...God is not a bad farmer, when you have a crop... you always take the firstfruits first. The end of the world is the Harvest...the angels will come to take the
firstfruits first. No Harvester can take his firstfruits twice.


Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 14:2  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Harvest.

Gods endtimes Harvest... Sometime after the Antichrist is revealed, here John sees the appearing of Christ, or someone like him on a cloud...no (horse), the harvest is ripe...then God takes his firstfruits...The dead in Christ are not raised here.
 
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the (harvest) of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The Church...Manchild? Very possible.

Raptured Church...wise virgins,palms in their hands, Saying Salvation to our God ...(notice this group has palms in their hands)...while the beheaded saints have harps.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a Great Multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of (Great Tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Five wise virgins, with OIL in their lamps?...Mid-Trib.They came out of Great Tribulation... Jacobs Trouble, Satans Wrath, not the Seven year Tribulation. These also have a Seal for protection, from Gods Wrath ...Holy Spirit for redemption.

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Five wise five foolish

Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat 25:2  And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Mat 25:3  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Mat 25:4  But the wise (took oil) in their vessels with their lamps.

Mat 25:5  While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a (cry made), Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Who would make this cry? the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him? The only ones i know who could, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation. If they are prophets then Gods people better listen to them..here is an Old Testament prophecy of these Two Witnesses.

Zec 4:11  Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Zec 4:12  And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden (oil out of themselves)?

Zec 4:13  And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

Zec 4:14  Then said he, These are the (two anointed ones), that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Notice they empty Oil out of themselves...and the wise virgins get Oil...something to think about. Also we see the wise virgins, are told, or see, that the bridegroom is coming, a (cry) was made...so we see that the coming of the lord is not Imminent...the wise are gonna know hes coming. like
Daniel said, the wise will understand...but the wicked will not. As in the days of Noah? yes Noah knew the flood was coming! But the wicked did not. As in the days of Lot? same thing, Lot knew God was going to destroy Sodom...so
we see the Rapture is not Imminent, Gods people are not going to be in darkness, a (Cry) will be made to go out and meet the bridegroom!...and the Wise virgins will obey it. I think im correct on this...Also Jesus gave signs of his coming...there is no way his people will not know that hes coming. We will not know the day or the hour...but we will know hes coming. He said when you see these things come to pass, lift up your heads...because its time to be redeemed.

Constantly im hearing, this is for the Jews...No- No- No- and
No! The book of Revelation was written for the Church, and given to the Church, not the Jews...the Jews dont even read the New Testament. Actually its for Jew and Gentile, if they are part of the Body of Christ. Heres proof that the Body of Christ will know hes coming...below

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Therefore let us not sleep? The five foolish virgins were asleep.

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Church Tribulation.

Act 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.  

That we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God? Some say the Church will not suffer any tribulation. That is a very deceptive...the above verse proves that. But when trouble comes God will make a way out. But
remember tribulation is not Gods wrath.

God in Egypt.

Did God take the children of Israel out of Egypt Imminently?...NO, he said he heard their crys, their travail, God is likely going to take his Church when the cry out to him in travail...and let me say, the first half of the tribulation is going to make them cry out to God. A lot of times God waited
the last minute to show his Power and Glory!...go out to meet the bridegroom.

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his (own elect), which (cry day and night) unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them (speedily). Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The Martyrs.

Beheaded saints... (harps of God in their hands, not palms)...sing the song of Moses, and stand on the sea of glass...So we see these are different than the Great Multitude that came out of Great Tribulation.

Rev 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 15:3  And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Rev 15:4  Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The Woman in the wilderness goes with these saints, and the rest of the dead in Christ... at the Last Trump. This is the first resurrection...The Manchild is gone, he was Caught up to God...Raptured.

The Woman.

The Woman who had the Manchild...grafted back in Jews. Also Mid-Trib... and she will be Alive and remain on earth, till the Second Coming...We who are alive and remain at his coming...Resurrection, Last Trump. Remember, the days
were shortend for the gathering of the Elect, by Angels... Paul did see the shortening of the days, as you will see later. God sends his angels twice...once for the protection of the Elect, (the Woman and the Manchild) and then with a Trumpet at His Second Coming, to take the Dead in Christ and the Woman in the wilderness, the ones who are Alive and remain.

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two (wings of a great eagle), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,(Protected by God in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years), from the face of the serpent...Satan, Antichrist.

wings of a great eagle? what are these wings? Jesus tells us who these wings belong to...Below.

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Hes calling his Angels eagles...but remember the shortening of the days.

Exo 19:4  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

God pleads with the Jews of this Woman in the wilderness...Likely to accept their Messiah. And this is also where they will likely mourn for him whom they have pierced...as we see below, he will talk to them face to face.

Ezekiel 20:33  As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

Eze 20:34  And I will bring you out from the people, and will (gather) you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

Eze 20:35  And I will bring you into the (wilderness) of the people, and there will I plead with you (face to face).

Eze 20:36  Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

And will (gather) you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a (mighty hand), and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

God will gather and lead these Jews, for protection from the Wrath of Satan by angels...at the Mid Point of the
Tribulation. Why did i say lead? Because some of these Jews are in Israel, and are not scattered into other countries. Remember what Jesus said...

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...wilderness...(The Woman).

Micheal Stands up.

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: (Michael) and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Daniel 12:1  And at that time shall (Michael) stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be (delivered), every one that shall be
found (written in the book).

Written in the book? Are only the Jews written in the book? I dont think so.

Again we see Revelation Chapter 12...is where (Michael) stands up, for Gods people,and at that time Gods people shall be delivered...from the Great Tribulation, last 3 1/2 years...Jacobs Trouble. Some would like to say the Church is more important to God,and this is only for the Jews...well they should know by now, that the Jews are going to be part of the Church, when they are grafted back in... God is no respector of persons. Plus the Antichrist is going to be a worldwide persecuter, not just on Israel...Jacobs Trouble will be a worldwide event...not just for the Jews. All the world is
going to have to deal with the Antichrist, one way or another... And he must be revealed before our gathering unto God, and that likely DONT happen till sometime Mid-Trib, when he sets up the Idol...here Paul sees the (gathering)
of the Elect... The shortening of the days (The Manchild and the Woman)...See below

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, (by) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (AND) by our gathering together unto him),

2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed), the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God), shewing himself that he is God.  

He also seen the Second coming...below as well, where the dead in Christ are raised and the ones who are (Alive and remain)... the Woman (Jews) in the wilderness. So there are two Raptures...one for the gathering of the Manchild, plus protection for the Woman in the wilderness. Then one for the
dead in Christ, and the Jews in the wilderness(Woman) who were left on earth... for his Second Coming...At the Last Trump.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are (alive and remain) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

End Notes

Now i will not debate any of this...old habits die hard. And a great deal of study must be done with prayer, to understand any of these prophecies. I used to be Pre-Trib, untill i seen the 144.000 being the firstfruits of the endtimes harvest...Pre-Trib dont fit here. Also the Manchild being Raptured Mid-Trib. (This Manchild must be understood), because Isaiah 66 says hes not Jesus. The Church must be Raptured with these firstfruits as well, or the Church is not part of the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...Plain and
simple. As well as the Post-Trib view, Read Isaiah 66...the prophet says God is going to (Appear) to our joy, and they will be ashamed. He also says this will be the Glory of the Gentiles.

Like i said before, i think the Rapture is staring us right in the face, at Revelation Chapter 12...This Manchild will be born a nation for God in one day, when he is Caught Up to God...RAPTURED. Jesus wasnt Caught up to God as soon as he was born...and the Saints will rule with a rod of iron along with Christ...they will be Kings and Priest!  

Isa 66:14  And when ye see this, your heart shall (rejoice), and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the (hand of the LORD) shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

I may try to answer some questions on this.. but no debate. And if not... my last words concerning this would be as The Lords...Pray always that ye may be worthy to escape all these things, and stand before the Son of Man.

I believe that the Rapture will happen after the killing of the two witnesses. When the revenge of the anti-christ is full if it.  ;D
What better time when the trib. saints, are under percution. Crying the loudest for God.

 Hi AJ.


 You are right, there is no 100% identity about who these twenty four elders are. But further on in Revelation 21:14 there is a clue as to the identity of twelve of them...

 Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  

 So, it's safe to assume that these are...twelve Old Testament & twelve New Testament elders. There are twenty four of them, and it would be an amazing and confusing coincidence if these twenty four where twenty four "other" elders wouldn't it?

 Now, you make a fairly good point about "the Transfiguration" however, as you also point out "and even a part of the 12 Disciples who were promised to sit on thrones in his kingdom" You understand that it could only be "a part" at best, of the twelve desciples, because the entire twelve could only be there if they had been Raptured already.

 Now here's where it gets interesting....

 Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 "A door was opened in Heaven" Clearly, there is either something coming to, or going out from Heaven. Otherwise, why is the door opened?

 "and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me" When did John hear this "first voice" which sounded like a trumpet?  He first head this voice in Rev 1:10 ...

 Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  

 Who's voice was it?

 Rev 1:11 Saying, I am  : and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.  

 Clearly, John hears God's voice. God speaks to John in a powerful voice which John describes as a trumpet blast. We know it is God because He identifies Himself as "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"

  Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

  So John hears God's voice for the second time and God says... "come up hither" God "Raptures" John up to heaven.

 Look closely at the verse again...

 Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 It's obvious that something happened (Rapture) because God is now saying that He must show John what will happen from then on. So this sets the timeline... God called John up (Raptured him) then reveals to John the rest of His Revelation.

 If that doesn't get you thinking then look at the following...  

 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 Whoever these twenty four are, it is clear that they are...

A) In Heaven at Rev 4

B) They are clothed in white raiment at Rev 4

C) They are wearing crowns of gold on their heads at Rev 4

 It's obvious that they have been through the Bema Judgement and received their rewards and been cleansed at Rev 4. They had to have been Raptured in order to be judged and receive their rewards and been cleansed.

 Finally you said...

 

 Absolutely right. That doesn't work for the reasons you pointed out. There are many who will miss the Rapture and during the Tribulation and Wrath, they will give their lives to Jesus, and draw the wrath of satan upon themselves. Many will be beheaded, and these are the saints depicted in the following verses...

 Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  


 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.  

 I know you're not interested in debateing my friend, I thought I'd add to the discussion all the same.

Take care...

Bronzesnake

Hi Bronzesnake.

Well we see John being called up to heaven to write the book of this prophecy...and he was told to write what would come to pass here after...here after just means the future, and we see that this book is the future of what will happen to Gods people in the end times.

Now when Jesus rose from the dead the bible says he led the captives free...and gave gifts to men, The 24 elders if they were OT prophets that rose when Jesus did ,would probably have recieved these gifts. Why? because they were resurrected, and given new bodys... thats why i say we need to leave them just as they are. I need to be careful not to try and make Raptures every time i see someone being caught up to God...it needs to fit with at least some of the OT prophecies...because the OT prophets also seen the end times. And this manchild and woman are in the OT prophecies , the two witnesses are also in the OT...even the four horsemen are in the OT. We cant just use this book to interpret this book, we need to look at all the prophets to get a better understanding. And of the words of Jesus as well about the end times. Its like what happend to Christ, the Jews missed it because they failed to look at the prophecies of his first coming...he told them to search the scriptures but they refused...then when one of them finally understood something about Christ, that he was to die for the people ,they tried to kill him to fulfill the prophecy...sad but true. Same thing happened with John the Baptist, they were looking for Elijah, but missed the prophecy of the one crying in the wilderness... make straight the way of the Lord. As i said, im not trying to make a Rapture, im trying to find one...we need to use all the end time prophecies to do this. Plus this manchild is definitely a Rapture.

God bless

AJ: excellent writing, and the fact that you wittness that you were once a pre-tribber, and now found out that it's at least 3.5 years from the truth is a powerfull testimony and a very needed one in this forum.

I have to agree with you, (http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/eek7.gif) twobombs. I myself have always believe that the Rapture will come, in the mid of tribulation. (http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage08/19.gif)

1st Corinthians 15:51-56
51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.
If you do not agree that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is the same last trumpet in Revelation, then why did Paul associate the term last trumpet as a description for defining a period of time when rapture is to occur?
In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection here of believers otherwise he would not use the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age. With those things in mind lets look at God's Word some more.
Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And swore by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be no more delay 7 But in the days of the trump of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.


To be contuned

Now here in Revelation 10 verse 7 we see the Word "Mystery" and the promise that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet the Mystery of God would be fulfilled. We know the 7th angel in Revelation is the same one who blows the 7th trump. Here in Revelation 10:7 is only the promise, the angel is not sounding it here. Now lets look further into the Word of God.

Revelation 11:15-18

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give you thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which is, and was, and are to come; because you have taken to thee your great power, and has begun to reign. 18 And the nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and that you should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Now in the scripture above we have the 7th Angel sounding his trumpet. Notice that the it says here in verse 18; "your wrath has come" speaking of God's wrath and also "the time of the dead that they should be judged." We know these are believers because it says the servants, the prophets and the saints. Also rewards are spoken about. You only give rewards to children in the kingdom. This is the resurrection Paul is talking about in 1st Corinthians. It occurs at the blowing of the Last trump which is blown by the 7th angel. We also know these are believers in Jesus because the white thrown judgment resurrection for the rest of the dead, does not occur until Revelation 20.

Revelation 14:13-20

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, (Rapture starts here ) Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time is come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (God's Wrath starts here after church is removed ) 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Now this is where Rapture actually takes place, Rev 14:14-16 is the Rapture. This is the 1st sickle where Jesus comes and takes his Church out of the world and out of his impending wrath. Notice the word Harvest is used, Jesus also uses the word Harvest when explaining the tares and the wheat in Matthew. Now the next sickle (2nd Sickle) starts in 14:17-20. This is a wrath sickle. The 1st sickle is a Harvest sickle (Rapture). Be sure not to confuse these two sickles. Once again the 1st sickle in Revelation 14:14-16 is the Rapture. The second sickle in Revelation 14:17-20 is a wrath sickle. The Bowl judgments begin right after this second sickle in chapter 14:17-20. As Jesus promised and Apostle Paul spoke, Jesus delivers us out of his wrath. Exactly as Paul was instructed and wrote to us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Go in Peace with God
DW

As you can see, there is more support for a mid-trib Rapture then a pre-trib Rapture.

Go in Peace with God
DW

Thanks for the complement...and Glory to God.

God bless you brother

 You obviously haven't read Paul2's exhaustive work on pre-trib. In any case, does more always equal the truth? If that's the case, then I guess all those accusers at Jesus' trial were right. I mean, they had loads of support and accusatorial evidence stacked against Jesus, and Jesus didn't say a word.

Not only is there far more on this forum to support pre-trib, the evidence for pre-trib stands up to a far superior standard than any other theory. I came to my conclusions for pre-trib by going over every speck of biblical evidence I could get hold of, and there's lots out there. I was only interested in the truth, why should I care if it was pre, mid, post pre-wrath, pre-trib etc? I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.

 take care my friends...

Bronzesnake.

In any case, does more always equal the truth? If that's the case, then I guess all those accusers at Jesus' trial were right. I mean, they had loads of support and accusatorial evidence stacked against Jesus, and Jesus didn't say a word

Terrible anology! Jesus accusers wer`nt using the Word of God, they were inspired by satan.

Not only is there far more on this forum to support pre-trib, the evidence for pre-trib stands up to a far superior standard than any other theory.

Contradictory by your own terms, for you said more support does`nt equal truth, so the very arguement you just used against anothers stance, you used to support your own.

I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.


Yourself and "many others" believing it does`nt make it truth, nor make it obvious.  God`s Word supports God`s Word, and is interpreted thereby, and isn`t made "truth" by a multitude of private interpretations, this is what it means to be  truly following after God`s truth instead of following the "many".

Oh and God`s truth isn`t about what makes more sence, what sounds better, nor about what we want, it IS about,  IT IS  WRITTEN.

Carry on.

  ::)

Paul2's work is very interesting, yet is mainly applauded by pre-tribbers confirming their beliefs.

I find paul2's work exaustive yet not convincing enough, not because of I might not like the guy (au contraire) , or his postings, but because it skips very important issues. Those issues are for example the Jewish Feasts, his inspiration mainly comes from the book of Revelation a book that I use for confirmation, not for starters.

One of the most obvious differences is in one of the trumpets in Revelation wich he sees as the trumpet that Paul describes in 1Thes 4-16/17. Even how lengthy his work has become, this exclusion of the Jewish Feasts is to me completely missing in his investigation.

I also see Dan 12:1 missing, which is pointed out as the begining of the Trib and does not mention any rapture; instead it mentiones the rapture/salvation 1290 days later.

Dan 12:1   And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:11   And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It doesn't get any easier then this, I presume. No lengthy posts, not nessesary.

Amen, Shylynne

My quote..
In any case, does more always equal the truth? If that's the case, then I guess all those accusers at Jesus' trial were right. I mean, they had loads of support and accusatorial evidence stacked against Jesus, and Jesus didn't say a word

shy response..

First of all...why so angry? I was debating with AJ and DW, no one was being rude or getting hyper, and out of the blue I get sideswiped. I wouldn't mind if you had actually added to the topic, but this is plain and simply an outright attack.

 However...Your right, kind if.. it was an "analogy" I wasn't making a direct comparison. I suspect my point got across to the person I was actually debating with.

My quote...
Not only is there far more on this forum to support pre-trib, the evidence for pre-trib stands up to a far superior standard than any other theory.

 shy response...


 Wow!  Try calming down a bit and read it again...I did not say more support does`nt equal truth... I said "does more always equal the truth?" There is a huge difference between the two.

My quote...
I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.

shy response...

 So...you have God's truth and I don't? You try to make it appear as though I just made up the pre-trib rapture all by myself without studying God's Word at all. We (Christians) all read the Bible as much as possible in order to understand what God expects of us, and what we can expect from God. There are also many prophecies in the Bible, we struggle to understand these as well. So by reading the bible, by discussing the Bible among ourselves, and by attending a Bible believing church we all hope to get a good understanding of God's Word. There are, however, limitations as to how much of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God's Word that we can really expect to grasp. Some of us, for example, have limited intellectual abilities and can only grasp so much, others have an obvious distorted view of the Bible, and we must all beware not to fall into any "cultist" traps, as there are many out there. In the case where two faithful, Bible believing Christians disagree on a non Heaven & Hell issue such as the timing of the Rapture, then I feel like there is far too much venom and anger going on between Christians in certain circumstances such as this one.

 So I have spoken my mind with a humble, honest attitude and now I will switch back to my own threads and others where this type of needless attack isn't going on.

Take care Shylynne my sister.

Bronzesnake (Pretriber)

Bronzesnake, I spent most of yesterday reading over the pre-trib Rapture by Paul........ It is very well done but missing a few points.
I stated earlier in my posts.
1st Corinthians 15:51-56
51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.
If you do not agree that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is the same last trumpet in Revelation, then why did Paul associate the term last trumpet as a description for defining a period of time when rapture is to occur?
In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection here of believers otherwise he would not use the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age.

Perhaps you should read my post again Bronze, there`s no anger there, nor was it meant as an attack, i`m sorry you viewed it as such, I was merely interjecting my view, and I think I am as free to do that anytime on a public forum as you are.
 

Yes you made a direct comparison, and unfairly so.

 
I am cool as a cucumber, but huge difference? lol
Can`t you see you used the "more don`t equal truth" to disprove what you did`nt agree with, yet used the same arguement to support your own statement?


Where did I say I have God`s truth and you dont?
I was trying to make a point, one you seem to have missed entirely.  You said I am always after God's truth, myself and many others on this forum believe the pre-trib explanation is the obvious truth.
...and I responded to that statement by saying yourself and many others believing something does`nt make it an obvious truth.  


Now for some humor...if you call a disagreement an attack...then for your sake I hope pre-trib is the way it`ll go  :-\  I think you thought you were eating humble pie and chomped into a chunk of  meat by mistake  ;D  Moral of that story is open your eyes before you byte  ;D

 Hello DW.
The following verses are very specific as to what trump is being blown at the time of the Rapture.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 These verses are very clearly Rapture verses and you'll notice who is sounding the trump...it's God, not an angel.

If you read...  
 Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 John identifies the trumpet in Rev 4:1 by referring back to "the first voice which I heard" the first voice which he heard was God's, so is this second "trumpet' This second trumpet sounds like speech, and speaks the words.."Come up hither" (Rapture) This is the final time you will find God's trumpet being sounded in Revelation, after that final sounding of God's trump the remaining trumpet blasts are sounded exclusively by angels.


 Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

 This is the result of hearing God's final trumpet...John finds himself in spirit form, in Heaven. How much more plain does it get DW?

 Take care my friend...

Bronzesnake.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with A SHOUT, WITH the VOICE of the archangel, and with the trump of God

A shout?... whos shout?

The shouting is the voice of the archangel, and the archangel is using the trump of God...Simple. Theres an answer for everything If you read between the lines brother. Dont you think God can give this trumpet to the angel?... voice of the archangel is the key to this shout. We also see that Christ has a sword in his mouth not a trumpet, at his second coming... probably not a real sword but you know what i mean...Plus God uses his angels for a lot of things...thats what their there for, Still not debating :)

EDIT: had to edit to make this more understandable.

God bless you brother

The trumpet is blown by God:

Zechariah 9:14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save them on that day
as the flock of his people.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.

The trumpet is blown by God?

So thier going to destroy and overcome with slingstones as well?

Interesting :) Sometimes literal..., dont work with prophecy.

God bless  

From Daniel 12:10-12
 
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.  
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

This puts the rapture about mid-trib.

 It seems like you are the one reading between the lines my friend. It does not say that God gave the trumpet to an archangel, you assumed that. As far as Christ having a sword in his mouth at His second coming...we're not talking about the second coming are we? we're talking about the rapture.

 The verse clearly states that God appears with a shout. The shout comes from the archangel and with the trump of God. If the archangel was sounding God's trump, the verse would follow in the same grammatical context as it did while identifying where the shout came from..
For example;

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 Notice how different things are when you take the word and out? In this example the archangel does in fact seem to be sounding the trump of God.

Let's try something else...

 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout[/b], and with the voice of the archangel,

 When the word and is added in this instance, it becomes two entities shouting; God and the archangel.


 So when you read the verse in grammatical context it is clear that God is sounding His trump, not the archangel.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 John clearly stated that God's voice sounded like a trumpet in verse Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 So  1Th 4:16 specifies with the trump of God for a reason. It is God's trump not an archangel. The verse also is very specific about the role of the archangel who is depicted shouting. In every other instance in Revelation where a trumpet is being blown the Bible very specifically identifies angels sounding them, nowhere else besides 1Th 4:16 will you find any reference to God's trump being sounded.  

 Take care my friend.

It does not say that God gave the trumpet to an archangel?

Read all the prophecies brother...not just little pieces here and there.

Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

In Revelation these angels get their trumpets from God...are we not talking about the return of Christ? If we are talking about the last trump... we are talking about the Second Coming. Revelation is just that... the revealing of his return and the Rapture. I know the Rapture is not the Second Coming... its the gathering of the Elect, the shortning of the days, read my study again...i also dont see a trumpet at the Rapture of the Manchild. But im not going to explain it again.


Rev 8:13  And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Voices of the trumpet of the three angels...Voices? Yet to sound?

These are the last three angels...we should know there are Seven.

We see these voices or voice... are the angels or angel sounding the trumpet/trumpets.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with A SHOUT, WITH the VOICE of the archangel, and with the trump of God (This is the Second Coming if you will accept it or not)

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The LAST TRUMP is given to the archangel...this is when the mystery of God will be finished.

Rev 10:7  But in the days of the VOICE of the seventh angel, when HE shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the mystery of God that he declared to the prophets, that will be finished?...it is the coming of his kingdom, and that dont happen till the LAST TRUMP.

Rev 11:15  And the (seventh angel sounded); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So will the Saints reign with him...this is it, the Last Trump
where the dead in Christ will be raised... and we who are alive and remain will be taken into his kingdom.

And the seventh angel sounded?...you better believe it :)

Amen

God bless you

 We're not discussing Rev 8 my friend. We're discussing 1Th 4:16 You're making it appear as though I don't believe any trumps are blown by angels. Please re-read this portion from my last post...

 So  1Th 4:16 specifies with the trump of God for a reason. It is God's trump not an archangel. The verse also is very specific about the role of the archangel who is depicted shouting. In every other instance in Revelation where a trumpet is being blown the Bible very specifically identifies angels sounding them, nowhere else besides 1Th 4:16 will you find any reference to God's trump being sounded



 Oh really? You left out a very important portion of those RAPTURE verses my friend. Add the next verse...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 So in your mind, when Jesus returns at the second coming, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those of us which are alive at that time will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air? What is the purpose of this? why not just meet Christ here on earth? Why would we get shuttled up into the sky only to turn around and come right back to fight satan and his minions?


Take a look at the following "second coming" verses...


 Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  

 Here's John, in Heaven and who is he talking too? Is it Jesus? no. Is it an angel? no. It's a man "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus" What is a man doing in Heaven at this time? This means that the Rapture has already taken place before the second coming.


 Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  


 Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  


 Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  


 Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

 These armies are comprised of Raptured saints. These saints were not whisked up into the clouds to meet Jesus only to turn around and descend on earth again. These armies were in Heaven they came out of Heaven following Jesus upon white horses.

 The rapture happens at Rev 4 which corresponds with 1Th 4:16 which describes the Rapture event in detail.
 God sounds His last trump and first, the dead in Christ rise up to the sky followed immediately by those Christians who are alive at that time  to meet Jesus in the clouds. From there we obviously go straight to Heaven to wait for the remaining saints who are saved during the wrath/tribulation. When the final saints are martyred we return from Heaven with Jesus back to earth.

 I'm not inventing anything, everything I have stated is in the scriptures "if you will accept it or not"  ;)

 Take care my friend.


 

AJ.

 Could you please clairify exactly when you believe the Rapture takes place, and please give me all relative verses.
 I'm not exactly sure what your beliefs are in relation to the timeline.

Thanks my friend.

 PS. Let me just add that I am enjoying our discussions. I accept that we Christians have many differing opinions on a wide variety of issues, which is really understandable when we consider that we're trying to understand God.

 Bronzesnake.

Did you read my study? I think you did? I explained this all before :) I should have said there are two Raptures above... one we call the Rapture or Harvest ,the other is called the resurrection... there is also a Rapture at the resurrection, where the ones who are alive and remain (The Woman in the Wilderness-- Jews) is caught up to meet Jesus in the air, this is where the last trump sounds...and Jesus takes the beast and false prophet and the saints take the kingdom with Christ. The Manchild was caught up to God 3 1/2 years before this...the begining of Jacobs Trouble.

This is what i see the prophecies saying...i maybe incorrect on some of this, but not much...and if a man says he has it all understood he is not being true to himself. This is a very hard study... these prophecies are like parables we need to try and understand them. Daniel was told to shut up the book because the angel told him that knowledge would increase and many would run to and fro...i believe this is happening now. Its just a matter of time and the holy spirit will reveal all this too the Church...will they all believe? probably not.

Now questions for you...you ask who is this man that John is talking too?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  

Here's John, in Heaven and who is he talking too? Is it Jesus? no. Is it an angel? no. It's a man "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus" What is a man doing in Heaven at this time? This means that the Rapture has already taken place before the second coming.

Does it?

Who rose from the dead when Jesus did? Prophets? not sure. were they given new bodys? Yes. did they go to heaven after their resurrection? Yes. Why? because we also see that Paul had a hard time with some who kept saying the resurrection had already taken place. Were they resurrected before John was caught up to heaven? Yes. As we see these people were in Heaven before John, as he sees them as soon as he gets there...over 2000 years ago.

Still not debateing ;) and still love you too brother. Im Also still praying and studying this...this is the only way.

Amen brother... God bless you

 We can not assume that these men went to Heaven after they finally died AJ. They did not get "new bodies" in the sense of the resurrection bodies that we receive in Heaven. Those bodies are eternal. So the resurrected men from the New Testament only got their own human bodies restored temporarily, they walked into the city and gave wittiness to Jesus. They were not "Raptured" into Heaven, but rather, they would be included in the group of " the dead in Christ" who are all Raptured together along with those Christians who are alive at the end times when the Rapture occurs.

 Why would some saints get Raptured before others?

John says there is a specific "hour" for all the dead in Christ to be Raptured. Resurrection and Rapture are two completely different things AJ. Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, and he lived a while longer, then eventually he died again and returned to the grave. He will be risen up and out of his grave along with the rest of the dead in Christ at the actual Rapture.

 Look at what John says...

 Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.  


 Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  

 He says there is a specific time when all who are dead will be raised.


 Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


 As you probably know, Revelation is in chronological order, although some instances from early verses mimic other later verses in order to show what is happening in Heaven while specific events are unfolding on earth, however, it does not confuse the chronological order.

 So from Rev 4 we can deduce that the resurrection has taken place, as well as the Bema Judgement, because we can see there are actually men in Heaven at that time who are wearing crowns, and men who have been washed clean as we can clearly see they are "clothed in white raiment".

  Therefore, the Rapture does occur chronologically before any wrath or tribulation. One would have to ignore this evidence in order to come to any other conclusion. How do you explain away the following verses...

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 By the way, there's nothing wrong with debating God's Word, how else are we supposed to work out our problems with understanding what our omniscient, omnipotent Father is telling us? ;)

 Bless you my friend.
Bronzesnake.

 

Hi again ;D Ok lets look at it this way then, John said he was caught up to heaven on the lords day... did the lords day happen yet?No he also seen these 24 Elders when he got there. He even seen the Second Coming... does this mean that it had already happened when John was caught up to heaven 2000 years ago? No...John was seeing the 24 Elders in the hearafter...Pre-Trib says the Church was Raptured before John seen the hearafter, some say hearafter the Church... then why did John see the 24 Elders in the hearafter if they represent the Church? Its simple John was seeing the future when he was caught to heaven, so he seen all these things in the now for him...but in the hearafter for us...so John being caught up to heaven was the now for him then he showed us the hearafter for the Church. John being caught up to heaven is not the rapture...and this is the Pre-Trib teaching.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be (hereafter).
Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 4:4  And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Also 24 Elders dont make a great multitude, and John also seen them, this has to be the church because it says they came out of the Great Tribulation. But not the 7 year Tribulation. So this is Mid-Trib...theres no way to get around this group...24 Elders dont make a Raptured Church, a Raptured Body of Christ would make a great multitude...plain and simple.

Praise the lord brother :) you say i we cant assume... but you make all kinds of them.

We can not assume that these men went to Heaven after they finally died AJ. They did not get "new bodies" in the sense of the resurrection bodies that we receive in Heaven. Those bodies are eternal. So the resurrected men from the New Testament only got their own human bodies restored temporarily

They did not get "new bodies" in the sense of the resurrection bodies?... says who?


So the resurrected men from the New Testament only got their own human bodies restored temporarily?...says who again? :)


Anyway brother i see your mind is set on Pre-Trib...mine is on Mid-Trib ...we will have to agree to disagree i quess,
but it was nice talking to you brother...may the Lord keep you and bless you always.

Amen :)

 Good enough my friend.
 I'll see you in the clouds...PRE-TRIB! The first round of mana is on you my brother! ;D

 Bronzesnake

For your sake I hope you are right and AJ and I am wrong, butdon't be disapointed if the Rapture comes in mid-trib. Keep your faith close to your heart. For God loves everyone.
If you are wrong, the first round of mana is on you my brother.  ;D
And I will be the last to say, "I told you so." ;D

Go in peace with God
Bob

Revelation is nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad, with the New Jerusalem being the Holy Spirit.
   How can anyone see revelation as "future"?
  It is a Great Holy City/harlot/woman being destroyed by a gentile army. There are 12 tribes mentioned, 10 horns on the beast of the sea and 2 horns on the beast of the earth. This equals 12 and simply represent the 2 split nations of the House of Israel.
    The 7 churches represent the 7 heads, with Thyatira representing Jezebel/Babylon, and the church of Philadelphia representing Christ's pure church,"the one who is".
    Jerusalem represented spiritual "babylon/harlot/great Holy city and is the beast of the earth that speaks as a "Lamb".
    To me, revelation is historically past and is the devine vision seen by John as the destruction of Jerusalem and the redemtion of the saints. This brought together the 2 nations under one King, Jesus, after destroying the synagogue of "satan" that were killing and persecuting the saints. Shortly after Paul died after ministering, God brought the roman army down, just as He promised and Christ promised.

Ezek 36:21 "But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went. 22 "Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
Ezek 37:21 "And say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

Huh?? ^^^ Now I am confused.  
InHimITrust, this is about Mid-Trib rapture.




Go in peace with God
DW

Revelation is nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad, with the New Jerusalem being the Holy Spirit.
How can anyone see revelation as "future"?


If you believe this then your faith is in vain! Why? because if Revelation is all past... then so is the Second Coming and the Resurrection!

Paul said this about this teaching.

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Revelation is future... John was told to write the things which must come to pass hearafter...and the hearafter of this book didnt stop in 70AD.

Are you resurrected yet brother? Did God wipe away all tears from your eyes? Are you eating from the tree of life yet? and so on and so on...wheres the new heaven and new earth?

Not future? Hmm: The Holy Spirit warned about false teaching and teachers in the last days.... dont fall into this group friend.

God Bless

Hmmm. False belief huh? Well, I am definately happy and content with my walk with God and His Son and feel more and more alive with them everyday.
  When I visioned what revelation was about, I had the greatest feeling and knew then that the bible was indeed the devine written book of God. I have never seen any contradictions in it at all and the whole book is harmonized so well, a million super computers couldn't write a book as God inspired as the bible. You can believe in rapture doctrines if that makes you happy in the Lord, but for me, I am happy to see it fulfilled as I do and so are my family and loved ones. We preach the word of God whenever we can and my love for Him and His Son is more powerfull today than ever. Sometimes I feel like I am looking at the world from the outside, a kind of heavenly feeling that is hard to describe. The bible is the only book in the world to me, because it was sent down by God thru His Son Jesus Christ, so you don't need to tell me how to rightly divide the word, as God thru His spirit helps me with that.
    I only wish others could experience it the way I and others have. Regardless of whether you believe in a "rapture" or not, just being in God's family is the best blessing anyone can have. God bless everyone here.
   

I agree 100%. I first read the bible thru last May when God entered my life....

Praise God dear brother...i see you are a babe in christ?
i read this from another post you replied to...God bless you brother, its nice to see new christians for God on the forums. But as a new babe in the lord... dont you think you should drink milk for now? Revelation is a very hard study...not that new christians cant be shown somthing about the book of Revelation, but this book is indeed meat...and as a newborn babe we are told to drink milk first. What do you think?
I was a babe once too dear brother...and i had some false teachings, Why? because i was trying to eat meat when i should have been drinking milk. And if you believe that Christ returned in 70AD then that is incorrect. still not convinced? they pray about it brother...Praise the lord and may God bless you and your family ;D

Love you brother...Amen

IHIT...

 
 I will not question your love for God my friend, however, you yourself have stated that you are a new Christian. It only makes good sense for you to listen and learn from those Christians who have studied the scriptures for many years. That doesn't mean you should blindly follow any teaching based on a teacher's experience. You must always use the Bible as your measuring stick. If a teaching does not line up with the Bible, then stay away from it.

 It is of the utmost importance that you take the Bible literally, learn to understand what you are reading though. Jesus uses parables many times in order to make His point understood, however, the Bible always interprets itself. If Jesus uses a parable, it is always explained if you read further on. That makes it very easy to take the entire Bible as the 100% literal truth and word of God.

 I will give you some examples as to what I'm talking about.

 In the beginning several verses Jesus speaks in parable...

 Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;  


 Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:  


 Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:  


 Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.  


 Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:  


 Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.  


 Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.  


 In the next few verses Jesus explains to His deciples why He uses parables...

 Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  


 Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.  


 Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.  


 Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.  

These next verses are very relevant to our discussion. Many "Christians" today are being utterly baffled and confused by refusing to take the Bible literally. They spiritualize it, and in doing so, the Bible becomes open to many different interpretations. How can God's Word have many meanings? Jesus said there is only one Truth, only one way to enter Heaven. He also said that there are many roads that lead to Hell. Homosexual "Christians" are a good example of what happens when people spiritualize God's Word. God is very clear that homosexuality which goes unrepentant, is an abomination to Him and a sin that will lead straight to hell.

 Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:  


 Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  


 Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.  


 Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].  

 Now,as I said, the Bible enterprets itself. Here, Jesus explains the exact meaning of the parable.

 Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.  


 Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.  


 Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;  


 Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.  


 Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.  


 Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

 We don't have to "invent" theoretical explanations and meanings for any of the Bible. The Bible always explains itself.

 In my next pst I will show you where the ten horns and the harlot are explained.

 Not so my friend.

 Read what God says about those things...

harlot...

 Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:  


 Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.  


 Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.  


 Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:  


 Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.  


 Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.  

 In this next verse an angel explains who the harlot woman is as well as the meaning of the seven heads and ten horns.

 Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.  

 Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.  


 Rev 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 Now I will explain in detail what God says about these verses.
However, it will be rather long so I will use another post...

Chapters 17 and 18 of the book of Revelation form another parenthesis. They are expositions of two verses. Chapter 17 explains Revelation 14:8 and chapter 18 expounds Revelation 16:19. In Revelation 14:8 we read, And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that greatcity, be-cause she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Likewise, in chapter 16, we learned that great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of thefierceness of his wrath (verse 19).

  The Babylon of Revelation 14 is a religious system, whereas the Babylon of Revelation 16 is political. The chapter before us, then, is the story of the rise and fall ofthe ecumenical world church, while chapter 18 describes the destruction of apolitical system. Let’s begin our investigation of chapter 17 and discuss its prophetic implications, historically.

Verse 1: And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials,and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Here we see one of the seven angels who administered one of the seven judgments speaking to the disciple, John, inviting him to view the judgment of the great harlot who sitteth upon many waters. This phrase, many waters,speaks of religious control over humanity, internationally. Proof? Verse 15:The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Verse 2: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, andthe inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Here we discover that this worldwide religious system holds both earth’s leaders and people within its grasp. The fornication committed is between these worldly leaders and the church. Remember that fornication, spiritually speaking, has to do with idolatry, including all its evil connotations and associations.

Spiritual fornication also has to do with Christianity embracing the world leaping out of Christ’s arms into those of another lover. God’s Word instructs true Christians to be separated from the world (see Romans 12:2),specifically cautioning them not to fall in love with the world or anything that it contains (see 1 John 2:15). Those who disregard these commands are spiritual adulterers or fornicators. That’s why James 4:4 declares, Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Harlotry and whoredom, then, speak of idolatry and worldliness.

During the Tribulation hour, a vast international religious system (the great whore of verse 1) creates impure alignments with kings, rulers, and presidents in an unprecedented way. Her control is so overwhelming that humanity becomes mentally stupefied or hypnotically drugged as they are made drunk with the intoxicating brew of these religious/political alliances.

Verse 3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy,having seven heads and ten horns.

At this point John, guided by the Holy Spirit. observes the woman (or worldchurch) sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy,having seven heads and ten horns. We first saw this beast in chapter 13,verse 1: I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out ofthe sea, having seven heads and ten horns. We immediately recognize him to be the Antichrist, who came to power through a confederation of western nations pictured by the ten horns and ten toes.

The only difference between the present text and verse 1 of chapter 13 is that the beast is now described as being scarlet coloured. Most commentators believe this reflects his bloody assault upon the world as he rises to power. He begins his reign with a fake peace pact (see Daniel 9:27) which helater breaks! As a result, millions are slaughtered during his rule. Now he bears the blood-red color of an executioner.

Verse 4: And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her handfull of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

As this world church on earth is described, please keep in mind that the true Church—the bride of Christ—is in heaven (chapter 4, verse 1). Her members were raptured from all nations and from many denominations. In fact,their song was recorded in chapter 5, verse 9: Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. The lyrics clearly prove that they trusted in the precious blood of Jesus for salvation. There is no other way (see 1 Peter1:18,19). Cain rejected the blood and tried to appease God with a vegetable offering (see Genesis 4:3), but God said, It is the blood that maketh anatonement for the soul (Leviticus 17:11). One cannot get to heaven by following the commandments of men (Matthew 15:9), observing tradition (seeMark 7:9), or as a result of works (see Titus 3:5). Thus, those who believed and obeyed God’s teachings concerning the blood of the Lamb are in heaven when the false church, the great whore that sitteth upon many waiters, holdssway over the earth.

This false religious system of the Tribulation hour is a complete union of the church and the world. Its members are the leftovers from all denominations. They were either doctrinally or morally wrong. One is as bad as the other. The doctrinally wrong are described in 2 Peter 2:1 and 3: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall befalse teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction...whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

The morally wrong are pictured in Jude, verses 8-21. Now we understand why theology and morality are so important! When God says, All have sinned(Romans 3:23), He means all. When He declares, The wages of sin is death(Romans 6:23), He means punishment. When He declares, The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7), He means just that!There are no two ways about it! God says what He means—and means what He says. If one rejects God’s Word, he will end up among this Tribulation crowd of self-indoctrinated religionists in a world church destined for destruction.

 To continue on next post...

Secondly, if one says he is a Christian but continues to live in sin, the result will be the same—even though his doctrinal theories may coincide with the true teachings of the Word. Yes, disobedience to revealed truth, as well as incorrect doctrine, keeps one from the presence of God for all eternity.This is why Titus 1:16 states: They profess that they know God [lipservice]; but in works [daily living] they deny [God], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate [counterfeit]. Therefore,the members of both groups remain on earth when Jesus calls His genuine children home in the twinkling of an eye. Then these leftovers from all denominations become members of the only religious body still inexistence—the world church under the false prophet.

Looking at verse 4 once again, we notice that the woman or mother of the united world church is clothed in materials of purple and scarlet colour.This signifies rulership, for imperial Rome bedecked its leaders in such fashionable elegance. Strange, is it not, that ecclesiastical rulers have always desired temporal authority? They have sought to control the world as well as their parishioners.

Constantine, who became Emperor of Rome in 312 A.D. and eventually head of the church, is a perfect example of this power struggle which has continued to the present hour. Shades of Nicolaitanism! Remember the church of Ephesusin chapter 2. Question: Is such a goal scriptural? No! Jesus taught His disciples to pray, Thy kingdom come (Matthew 6:10). When that great event takes place in chapter 19, verse 16, then and only then, is a theocracy—the government of God—established upon earth. This position of leadership is reserved for the Lord Jesus Christ, and no mortal has any business taking His place. The throne belongs exclusively to the King of kings and Lord of Lords.

The colors and jewels of verse 4 picture a church composed of prelates or leaders elegantly dressed in purple and scarlet (the colors of the emperors from the time of Constantine). They are also decked with gold and precious stones and pearls (a picture of wealth) and use idols in worship (picturedby the golden cup in the woman’s hand). The cup is full of (1) abominations and (2) filthiness.

Verse 5: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THEGREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Here we discover that the mother church has daughters. Her offspring are groups who either rejected the true teachings of the founder of Christendom or who had a counterfeit experience with the Son of God. They went through the motions but were never truly converted. Among them are cultists,apostates, and unconverted professors of religion—including Baptists,Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, and those who were members of a host of denominations. They never really knew the Lord (see Matthew 7:21-23). The fruit of daily living was spoiled. Now they are all united in one homogenized ecumenical monstrosity—the counterfeit church under the leadership of the false prophet. However, the true believers from many denominations are already on the glory side and were evacuated at the Rapture (see Revelation 4:1).

My friend, at the Judgment Day, no church—not even your church—will be the final standard of truth. Neither will tradition hold sway at the judgment bar of God. The only and absolute authority of truth, faith, and religious practice is God’s Holy Word (see 2 Timothy 3:16)! This is why the Lord Jesus himself said in Mark 7:7 and 13, Howbeit in vain do they worship me,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered.

Verse 6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

As John watches all the cunning antics of persecution this woman used and uses, he [wonders] with great admiration. This does not mean he admires the one who has so mercilessly destroyed so many. Instead, the original Greek is that John "wonders with a great wonder." He is mystified.

Verse 7: And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her,which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The explanation begins in the next verse.

Verse 8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out ofthe bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earthshall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not,and yet is.

To continue on next post....

The angel continues unfolding the mystery of the beast in verses 8 through17. Then, in verse 18, the identity of the woman is revealed. Concerning the beast, the angel declares, The beast that thou sawest was [past tense], and is not [present tense]; and shall ascend [future tense] out of the bottomless pit. This is the same beast found in verse 3 and also in chapter13, verse 1. The reason the beast was, and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition is that, as mentioned in Rev chapter 13, verse 3, he is more than likely assassinated during theTribulation hour—and thus, is not. Then satan, the great imitator,resurrects himself and enters the body of this human for the final forty-two months of the Tribulation.

This explanation fulfills the statement, and yet is (verse 8). While he is deceased, the beast is in the place of departed evil spirits—the bottomless pit. At the time of his resurrection, he ascends out of this pit, only to eventually go back into perdition at the conclusion of his reign when Christ comes (at the Battle of Armageddon) and casts him into the lake of fire(chapter 19, verse 20). Verse 8 also tells us that those persons whose names[are] not written in the book of life, are emotionally stirred as they see the beast that was [alive], and is not [because of his assassination] and yet is [because of his resurrection] ruling again.

Verse 9: And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

This is a tremendous text. It locates, geographically, the final world powerblock and headquarters for the world church as well. Historically speaking, Rome is the only city situated on seven hills. The names of her seven peaksare (1) Aventine, (2) Caehan, (3) Capitohine, (4) Esquihine, (5) Palatine,(6) Quimnal, and (7) Viminal. There is no disputing the fact. The worldchurch, sitting on these seven hills, heading up scores of denominations,rides to power on the back of the ten horned western federation of nations.

Verse 10: And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

As John receives this vision of the seven kings, five have already fallen.They were (1) Julius Caesar, (2) Tiberius, (3) Caligula, (4) Claudius, and (5) Nero. Number (6)—Domitian—is, at the time John receives this revelation, alive and on the throne. Number 7 is yet to come. He, of  course, is the Antichrist whose reign will last briefly, or a short space.

Verse 11: And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

This verse is a thought twister, but easily understood when one considers it carefully. Who is king number eight if there are only seven kings in thefirst place? Number eight is number seven resurrected! And the beast that was [before his assassination], and is not [because of his untimely death],even he is [because of his resurrection] the eighth. He is of the seven because satan, who incarnated his body while dead, also motivated the other seven. As further proof that number eight is the resurrected Antichrist(number seven), we are again told that he will eventually go into perdition.This statement is also made concerning number seven in verse 8 as well as verse 11. King number seven and king number eight are one and the same.

Verse 12: And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The ten horns have not become quite familiar to us. They may soon control the world. Communism, as we have learned, is not the final power block of history. Rather, this ten toed western alliance is. The power of these nations, however, will be for one hour, or for but a brief moment of time.

Verse 13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The final ten-nation western federation—after the Antichrist ousts three of the original members and replaces them—becomes so unified that everything they possess, economically and militarily, is placed under the control of this world leader (see Daniel 7:8, 24).

Verse 14: These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

This verse is fulfilled in chapter 19, verses 11 through 16, when the world’s armies gather together against the Lord and His anointed as pictured in Psalm 2:2: The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed. The Lamb(Christ) is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. The called, chosen, and faithful who accompany Him are the armies of heaven (chapter 19, verse 14)composed of the believers (the true Church) who were raptured out of the world in chapter 4, verse 1, and who then waited in heaven seven years to return with the Bridegroom.

Verse 15: And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

As explained in our discussion of verse 1, the woman sitting upon many waters is the world church who exercises religious control over mankind internationally.

Verse 16: And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The Antichrist eventually betrays his religious followers. They bowed and scraped to his image, but now he no longer wants to share the limelight and glory with them. Thus, the individual leaders of the countries in the ten nation confederacy turn against the world church. They hate her, strip her of all possessions (the gold, precious stones, and pearls of verse 4), and destroy her by burning her remains to the ground. Who places such a plan of action in the hearts of these rulers? None other than God Almighty!

Verse 17: For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall befulfilled.

Imagine, God does it all! This portion of Scripture emphasizes the futility of politics. Despite the methods and manipulations of man, God’s plan always comes to pass. He sets up and knocks down world rulers at will (see Psalm75:7). They are but pawns in the game of life (see Proverbs 21:1). God’s will prevails regardless of what humans attempt to do. Christian, get souls saved! This is your God-given goal. Let the world spend time on temporal issues. The cause of Christ is eternal!

Verse 18: And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reignethover the kings of the earth.

This great end time city is located within the Common Market nations and proves that the political and religious power brokers exist together simultaneously. Since the world church forms at the time when ten western nations unite—and both the European Economic Community (now the European Union) and World Council of Churches began unity proceedings in 1948

 The Bible can be understood as long as you read it through and take it litterally my friend.

 Bronzesnake.


The above was taken from a study from Dr. Jack Van Impe.

I noticed you quoted a person named Van Kempt. Never heard of him, but if you go by others interpretations instead of you own Spirit, you will never understand the bible as being mostly fulfilled as promised by God thru the prophets. Revelation is nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem "spiritual babylon"(beast of the earth) by the roman army(beast of the sea), and to make anything else out of it, takes away the glory and power of God that the bible brings to us. Jerusalem was already judged and condemned by God centuries before, and He brought it to past. But to each his own, but as far as my family and people I know, we live each day in Christ and His Father and feel blessed to be part of their Family now.
     The only thing I have seen future in the bible is for all those who come to believe in God thru His Son Jesus Christ, is to proclaim His message to others and to live as Jesus lived, knowing we will have eternal life with them when we die. Knowing this is all I need to be happy in the Lord and to also keep others in the Lord also, so their hope and joy will be complete thru Him.
    God's kingdom is already here with us now and He controls everything as He is all in all.

 To each his own I guess. Respectfully though, you are dead wrong about Revelation my friend. The main thing is you love Jesus.

 Take care...

 Bronzesnake.

   Thanks for being understanding. Yes I love Christ and believe unto Him because He is the only way to God. And I love the bible more than any book in the world as it is the Words of Truth and Life.
    I wanted to tell people of my undertanding withoug being labeled, as it is truly the way I saw it when reading it on my own and is my own personal view of revelation the way I saw it, no one else's, and is strictly "biblical" from no outside source.
      Peace and grace to all thru our Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father and may Christ bring the joy, peace and happiness that is in Him.

InHimITrust says... God's kingdom is already here with us now and He controls everything as He is all in all.

Dear brother... you are mixing up the physical kingdom of God, with the spiritual kingdom of God. There are two kingdoms of God, one is the holy spirit dwelling in us... the other is yet to come...where Christ will rule the earth with a rod of iron...if we mix these up we will never understand the prophecies correctly, or the Book of Revelation.

Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a KINGDOM, that ALL PEOPLE , nations, and languages, should SERVE him:?


Are all people, and nations, and languages, serving Jesus Christ yet? (If they are, then why preach the gospel?) No my brother...they are not. Only the saints so far are  in this spiritual kingdom of God... but there will come a day when all will bow their knee to Jesus Christ at his coming, to set up an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his physical kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The kingdom that Daniel was seeing here is a physical one...Revelation speeks about the same one at the Second Coming of Christ. As well as the Prophets... And if we deny this we deny the word, and God is the word...

God Bless

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

We are warned not to despise prophecies...or have wrath against the day of wrath.

And sadly some christians do this...they are afraid of the truth or prophecy and want it to be all in the past, or are looking for a easy way out. We must be like John who said... Even so, come lord Jesus.

Edit: This is not directed at InHimITrust...this is for anyone who would despise prophecies

Amen

Great posts my friend!
The scriptures can be understood as long as we don't spiritualize and add our own ideas.

Amen brother... Some things are spiritual and some things are not...we need to rightly divide the word. And the Second Coming of Christ is definately physical ... every eye shall see him.

Praise God Brothers and Sisters...What a day that will be, when my Jesus i shall SEE!...

DITTO!!!!!!!
Amen brother  ;D