Faith and Works ?

[oneBook]

musicllover-

partially, at sundown is when the day of the week changes, so sat. evening is the first day, while sat. day is the 7th (Sabbath).  Likewise, the 7th day starts at sundown on fri., but before sundown, it is the 6th day. You could think of it as having two calendars, and you shift the days on one up about a quarter day (it varies through the year due to changes in sundown- earlier in winter and later in summer).

The early believers kept the Agape feast (also mentioned in Jude 1:12) on sat night (the 1st day of the week). There was a 3rd century work called "The Aposolic Constitutions" that outlined the rules for the feast, and even detail on how the lamps should be lit. Note that in Acts 20:7-11, that it does mention lamps, which tells us it is at night, and the fact that they mention the lamps is a good indication that this was an agape feast.  The tradition of having lamps is part of the keeping of the Sabbath, specifically of the Havdallah ceremony.  So the disciples passed on the tradition of having a closing ceremony for the Sabbath, and this morphed into the Agape feast and later disappeared all together.

We know they still met on the Sabbath because the disciples who stayed in Jerusalem met at the Temple daily, and participated in the prayer service.  This last piece of info is gleaned in this verse- Acts 3:1

Now Peter and John were going up to the Temple at the ninth hour, the hour of prayer.

also Acts 2:42 - 47

42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the Temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,  47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

note that in the above, where it says "to prayer", in Greek actually has the definate article so should be read "the prayer".  This strongly suggestes participation in the liturgy of the Temple, for in Jewish circles, the liturgy was called "the Prayer" quite often.

Well, that's enough for now.  I've got to go work (it's one of the 6 days of labor   )

Peace and Blessings, and congrats on the 100 year birthday of your fellowship.

-Onebook

[musicllover]

musicllover-

partially, at sundown is when the day of the week changes, so sat. evening is the first day, while sat. day is the 7th (Sabbath).  Likewise, the 7th day starts at sundown on fri., but before sundown, it is the 6th day. You could think of it as having two calendars, and you shift the days on one up about a quarter day (it varies through the year due to changes in sundown- earlier in winter and later in summer).

Technically speaking then those who attended a worship service Sunday morning are still observing the 1st day of the week and also the sabbath......like that makes any difference to God but for the sake of this Sabbath day arguement, Sunday morning worship is still the sabbath day.

Jesus death and being placed in a tomb was on Friday the last of the 6th day, right, Saturday they observed the sabbath, (which never has been in question) this follows  the rules of the Jewish faith, and early Sunday morning Jesus already risen. I am mostly tryin to put this all in my head in an organized manner. Sat evening to Sunday is day 1. Sunday Evening to  Monday evening is day 2. As I type this we are working on day 2 ?
     It would seem then that the scriptures I posted earlier still prove that the first day of the week is (as far as Jewish law prescribes) Sunday, ( and as you have explained Satureday evening) all would be with the keeping of the Sabbath.  
Just in case they are needed:
Mark 16:9
John 20:1, 19
Matt 28: 1
Marke 16:1-2
Acts 20:7
1 Cor 16: 1-2
 Rev 1:10
Even the scriptures will call sun up to sun down one day, so its interesting that its actually half one day and half the other.....my example is Christ will rise in 3 days, from his own mouth even. So I really don't think that anyone should be trying to put words in Jesus mouth, as far as what day to worship or that we will being going to hell for worshipping on Sunday. Seems to me we are worshipping on the sabbath.   its simply the last half rather than the first half of the sabbath.....

OK I best get to bed.....God's riches
blessing to you,
musicllover

[oneBook]

Hey musicllover,

Yes, that would put us into day two since sundown (or monday as we call it).  This part I think you have down, but I am afraid I confused you on the Sabbath/1st day issue.

Let me just give a sample of how a normal Sabbath would go down, hopefully that will be less confusing than my other posts-

fri. just before sundown
   the disciples are gathering to usher in the Sabbath, and light lamps before sundown for light (the Saducees would not light any lamps, and sat in darkness on the Sabbath). The cooking would be done, and at the point they light the lamps, they no longer do any work, and start reciting the blessings and Scripture over the Sabbath and over the food. They break bread and eat.

fri. after sundown
   in the glow of the lamps, the disciples finish eating, and then bless God for the meal (grace after meals).  They would have also most likely discussed God's word (they only had the OT at this point) and then sang some of the Sabbath Psalms as is the custom to this day.

sat. morning
    the disciples rise and eat a simple meal that was prepared before the Sabbath, or something that takes no preparation (like fruit). They then would have walked to the local synagogue (or the Temple if they were in Jerusalem).  The service consists of the prayer service (liturgy) that is a collage of Scripture sang and canted in an interactive service.  Next the scrolls would be brought out and some people would read from the Torah (law) and the prophets (each book had it's own scroll).  Then a teacher would expound on the reading and answer questions.

sat. afternoon
   the disciples stay and eat (break bread) in the synagogue and discuss the word and fellowship all day (and attempt to persuade them about the Messiahship of Jesus).

sat. just after sundown
   to mark the end of the Sabbath, they light lamps, and talk/fellowship on into the first day which started at the point they lit the lamps.

So, from the above imaginary account, I hope you can get a clear idea of the timeframe of Sabbath observance.  Meeting on the first day of the week (sat. night) was not part of the Sabbath per se, but an extension of it (they just couldn't get enough ).  So to clarify, if one were to meet on sunday day, then they would be meeting on the latter half of the first day, not the Sabbath.

I think the above should clearly settle the timing of the Sabbath, so I would like to discuss some of the verses that lend ambiguity to the necessity of the Sabbath. Starting with
Rom. 14:1 - 6

1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.  
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.  
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.  
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.  
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.  
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.  

Now there is a big difference in how I used to read this verse and how I understand it now.  There are a few things that changed it for me-
1.   the identity of the weaker brother
2.   the identity of the days in verse 5

In regards to #1 above, I read a very good book (with lots of really big words) called “The Mystery of Romans” by Mark Nanos.  This book I think made one major point and that is that the weaker brother is a Jew who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact, the weakness of his faith is that he doesn’t believe in the one God sent.  This also explains why he only eats vegetables, as this was something that Jews would do if they didn’t know if the meat was free from idolatry (at the time, most meat markets would say prayers to their gods over the meat, and the sages of Israel declared that Jews should not buy meat at a gentile market for that reason).  So vegetables were the way around that, since the idolaters didn’t usually say blessings over the vegetables.
If you read through Romans with this perspective, then it makes the whole book more cohesive.  When he talks about loving your enemy, he is talking about Jews that don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah as in
Rom. 11:28

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers

Secondly, about the days in verse 14:5, to start with, this section is dealing with opinion, not Scriptural precepts (as in verse 1).  This book was written primarily to the gentiles who were fellowshipping in the synagogue in Rome.  Paul had taught them that it is ok to buy meat from the market, but if someone told you it was offered to an idol, not to eat it (1 Cor. 8:13, 10:25-28).  As I mentioned already, the sages of Israel didn’t allow Jews to eat meat from the gentile market at all.  Paul’s exhortation here is for a gentile not to pass judgment on a Jewish brother (who doesn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah) because they won’t eat meat.  Note that it is assumed throughout that the meat is kosher, Paul doesn’t mention it because it is laid out in Scriptures, and being in the synagogue, they would already know what God said can be eaten and what can’t.
So if we take this view, then the days mentioned in Scripture (Sabbath, Passover, Yom Kippur, etc.) were taken for granted that they were holy (undisputed), so what days in verse 14:5 do people have opinions on?  We know that in that time period there were no groups recorded that thought all days were holy (that is the antithesis of holiness- if all days are set apart, then there is nothing to distinguish one day from another and it is therefore no longer set apart).  There were also no groups that observed no days.  So what is Paul talking about?  In the festivals of Passover/unleavened bread and the Feast of Booths, they are celebrated for 7 and 8 days respectively.  For Passover/unleavened bread, the scriptures tell us that the 1st and 7th days of Passover are Sabbaths (no work). For the Feast of Booths, the 1st and 8th days are Sabbaths.  The days in between are called the intermediate days of the festival.  According to Scripture, there is no prohibition to working on these days, however, there were many Jews who held that all the days of these festivals were Sabbaths, and would have the same rules on all of them.  This is a tradition and opinion that the gentiles didn’t have to agree with, and Paul tells them that although they don’t have to do it, don’t get down on the Jews that hold that conviction.  To strengthen this point, note that verse 2 and verse 5 parallel so that –
“One person has faith that he may eat all things” is the same one who “regards one day above another”

-and-

“but he who is weak eats vegetables only” is the same one who “regards every day alike”.


So it appears the first person is a gentile believer, and the second a Jew who believes in God but doesn’t accept His Messiah.

Furthermore, this same theme is taken through the broken and grafted chapters, stressing that the gentiles should not be arrogant over the natural branches (that were broken off).

Well, I think that is enough for now, I’m interested to hear your response, and Silver, you are totally welcome to chime in, I’m interested to hear your take on this passage.

Peace and Blessings on you both.

-oneBook

[Brother Love]

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).


<))><

[2nd Timothy]

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).


<))><

4 thumbs, and 10 toes up BL!

Grace and Peace!

[Brother Love]

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).


<))><

4 thumbs, and 10 toes up BL!

Grace and Peace!

 

[nChrist]

AMEN BROTHER LOVE!

The entire world changed at the CROSS. The shadows of the old were replaced by THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Brother Love]

"The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE" (Romans 3:22).

<))><

[musicllover]

........So, from the above imaginary account, I hope you can get a clear idea of the timeframe of Sabbath observance.  Meeting on the first day of the week (sat. night) was not part of the Sabbath per se, but an extension of it (they just couldn't get enough ).  So to clarify, if one were to meet on sunday day, then they would be meeting on the latter half of the first day, not the Sabbath.

I think the above should clearly settle the timing of the Sabbath, so I would like to discuss some of the verses that lend ambiguity to the necessity of the Sabbath. ........

    I understand that the Sabbath is Sat, and the day the Jewish faith worship, I think what I am confused about is the number day of the week Sunday is on.........is it in your understand the first day of the week  Sunday first day, Monday second day, and so on.....that is what I was trying to clarify.....The first day of the week as you have explaind begun on Sat evening and reaches into Sunday evening and it ends? And the reasons I ask again is because of the scriptures talking about the first day of the week, and they gathered together........ with this all said, Heaven is for anyone who believes in Jesus, son of God, died, was dead, and buried, and rose.....Sabbath being the Jewish day of worship very obvously scriptural sound, but then so is Sunday the Christian day of worship as the scriptures will support, and as you have agreed God will not turn his back on any who confess Jesus. So other than to clarify the number issue I believe I understand what your saying.
     Now if you say Sat is the first day of the week, I'll be totally confused again .......so be nice to me I is easly confused

musicllover

[musicllover]

........ I would like to discuss some of the verses that lend ambiguity to the necessity of the Sabbath. Starting with
Rom. 14:1 - 6

1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.  
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.  
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.  
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.  
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.  
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.  

Now there is a big difference in how I used to read this verse and how I understand it now.  There are a few things that changed it for me-
1.   the identity of the weaker brother
2.   the identity of the days in verse 5

In regards to #1 above, I read a very good book (with lots of really big words) called “The Mystery of Romans” by Mark Nanos.  This book I think made one major point and that is that the weaker brother is a Jew who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact, the weakness of his faith is that he doesn’t believe in the one God sent.  This also explains why he only eats vegetables, as this was something that Jews would do if they didn’t know if the meat was free from idolatry (at the time, most meat markets would say prayers to their gods over the meat, and the sages of Israel declared that Jews should not buy meat at a gentile market for that reason).  So vegetables were the way around that, since the idolaters didn’t usually say blessings over the vegetables.
If you read through Romans with this perspective, then it makes the whole book more cohesive.  When he talks about loving your enemy, he is talking about Jews that don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah as in
Rom. 11:28

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers

Secondly, about the days in verse 14:5, to start with, this section is dealing with opinion, not Scriptural precepts (as in verse 1).  This book was written primarily to the gentiles who were fellowshipping in the synagogue in Rome.  Paul had taught them that it is ok to buy meat from the market, but if someone told you it was offered to an idol, not to eat it (1 Cor. 8:13, 10:25-28).  As I mentioned already, the sages of Israel didn’t allow Jews to eat meat from the gentile market at all.  Paul’s exhortation here is for a gentile not to pass judgment on a Jewish brother (who doesn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah) because they won’t eat meat.  Note that it is assumed throughout that the meat is kosher, Paul doesn’t mention it because it is laid out in Scriptures, and being in the synagogue, they would already know what God said can be eaten and what can’t.
So if we take this view, then the days mentioned in Scripture (Sabbath, Passover, Yom Kippur, etc.) were taken for granted that they were holy (undisputed), so what days in verse 14:5 do people have opinions on?  We know that in that time period there were no groups recorded that thought all days were holy (that is the antithesis of holiness- if all days are set apart, then there is nothing to distinguish one day from another and it is therefore no longer set apart).  There were also no groups that observed no days.  So what is Paul talking about?  In the festivals of Passover/unleavened bread and the Feast of Booths, they are celebrated for 7 and 8 days respectively.  For Passover/unleavened bread, the scriptures tell us that the 1st and 7th days of Passover are Sabbaths (no work). For the Feast of Booths, the 1st and 8th days are Sabbaths.  The days in between are called the intermediate days of the festival.  According to Scripture, there is no prohibition to working on these days, however, there were many Jews who held that all the days of these festivals were Sabbaths, and would have the same rules on all of them.  This is a tradition and opinion that the gentiles didn’t have to agree with, and Paul tells them that although they don’t have to do it, don’t get down on the Jews that hold that conviction.  To strengthen this point, note that verse 2 and verse 5 parallel so that –
“One person has faith that he may eat all things” is the same one who “regards one day above another”

-and-

“but he who is weak eats vegetables only” is the same one who “regards every day alike”.


So it appears the first person is a gentile believer, and the second a Jew who believes in God but doesn’t accept His Messiah.

Furthermore, this same theme is taken through the broken and grafted chapters, stressing that the gentiles should not be arrogant over the natural branches (that were broken off).

Well, I think that is enough for now, I’m interested to hear your response, and Silver, you are totally welcome to chime in, I’m interested to hear your take on this passage.

Peace and Blessings on you both.

-oneBook

Yes this makes perfect sense, and it seems to go along with the notion that Christians worshiped on a different day, in different ways than do the Jewish group, the weaker brother is a Jew who doesn't confess Jesus. And as far a christian  goes, couldn't that also be a gentile who doesn't confess? Neither group is too look down on another for the way they worhsip or the way the eat.......
      The New Testement wasn't considerd part of what the Jewish faith read each sabbath, I assume the Christians who gathered together would retell the works of Jesus, talk about his teachings, the miralce they had witnessed, teach others, and still use the books of Moses as well. In the Jewish standards I am sure this was considered a bad thing, Christians were considered heritics ect ect ect. If not for the persecution  and division between Jews and Christians the Christian faith could have easly died right there, (but not what God had planned) it is because of the difference between eating, days of the week to worhisp, ect ect the Christian Church had to flew away from the points of persecution. I would say that these differences are for the glory of God, NOT to tell another that they are going to hell.
    I would be most interested in how Silver understands what you have written.
     
thanks one book,
Jesus is Lord everday of the week,
musicllover

[musicllover]

Silver,
       

     I have posted several scripture for you, showing that the Disciple gathered on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Your saying that these great men, witness of Jesus Christ, writter of the Holy word, preachers and the reason the CHurch was spread are all in hell?




   

 I am really curious, have you been raised to believe this, or is this a teaching you've come to believe?

I was raised a Sunday keeper, for some 28 years, before I found out what the Bible really taught.

Do you believe a murderer can ask for forgiveness and enter into Heaven.

Yes, only if he doesn't commit murder again.

Another example, the man hanging beside Christ on the cross as far as we understand didn't even attend a worship service...yet Christ told him he would be with him in pradise......so you or rather the church you attended has this figured out better than even God almighty.....Is it a scriptural promises? Or have you rewritten the scripturue....the promise is to believe in Jesus, he is the only way to Heaven, faith causes everything else to fall into place.... for example a person smoke, or does drugs....The Holy Spirit brings conviction  that leads to repentance and repentance leads to not doing that "sins" again. BUT  NOT attending Church on Sat, or Sunday.

It is not a matter of attending a church, because no church can save ANYONE. It is a matter of obeying God. And the 7th day Sabbath is the ultimate test of faith !

 

What guarantee is there that ANYONE is going to heaven?

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates of the City", (Revelation 22:14).
WHICH ..fits ..PERFECTLY with what Jesus told people, when they asked him, how they might gain eternal life:  Matthew 19:16   "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?  
  19:17   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".
 

   So why do you come here to this site?

To deliver the "Everlasting Gospel" of Revelation 14:6-12. Which contains the 3 angels messages, that every person must understand, before Jesus Christ can come again.

Sure would have saved me alot of heartache and man I could have been sleeping in on Sundays.

Maybe now...you can.

But I guess it makes no difference what I posted your still insisting that any who worhsip on Sunday  is doom to hell.

Any person who commits sin  ('wages of sin is death', Romans 6:23........'the soul that sins, it shall die', Ezekiel 18:4)
What makes you think a person can commit murder, or stealing ...and still get into heaven ?

       Silver, you answered your own quetion a little further down in your own post. But for some reason we think a lot different.... You asked me,.what makes me thinkg that a person can get into Heaven who has commited murder, stealing?........I believe based on the scriptures that NO one deserves Heaven, but through the shed blood of Jesus and those who confess Jesus as Lord we have been given a way into Heaven.  Murder or not, Jesus doesn't have a sin scale, all sin is forgivable (excpet blasphmey of the Holy Spirit, and if a person doesnt' confess Jesus as Lord before they die)

Point #1.....no one is in hell, at the moment !
Point #2....Every one of the Bible writers kept the 7th day Sabbath, even though they may have observed Sunday once or twice.
Had you studied the book of Acts alone....you would have found that the disciples observed the Sabbath, 84 times

.

 Maybe this is your problem, I don't study books alone, I study the complete bible. I see where the scriptures support each other, and base my understand on prayer, and the Holy Spirit. Am I 100% correct.....hardly, but I know that if I stand on the complete word that I am saved......You have failed to read any of the scriptures I shared with you Silver, I agreed that they kept the sabbath on Sat, they were Jewish, a division occured between the Jews and Christians at the death of Jesus. Christains seperated themselves and began to worhsip on Sunday, .....Observing a Sunday once or twice......lol.... ok, I am not sure that God cares about how many times they worhsipped on Sunday, You on the other hand seem insistant that those who worhsip on Sunday are going to hell....

Again I ask...do you believe the discplise went to hell?..  

It is proven by the scriptures they gathered on the first day of the week.....that would be SUNDAY.

So I'll end by repeating my question, its simply enough, since its scriptural to say Christians gather on the 1st day of the week, Sunday, you believe (the disciples, Paul ect ect) they went to hell?

musicllover

[oneBook]

------part 1----------

musicllover-

You have elicited a 2 part post from me, a first on this newsgroup (I think).  Sorry for conferring you with the "honor" but I just don't feel that I am communicating clearly, although writing more won't necissarily fix that, I can't wait to take another writing class.

Yes, just to re-affirm, the Sabbath is the 7th day, and the first day is just that.  The corresponding days on are calendar are -
Sabbath- fri. night through sat. day
first day- sat. night through sun. day
second day- sun. night through mon. day

The first point I was trying to make is the reason the disciples met on the first-day was in order to keep the Sabbath holy (by not handling money, and setting the day apart by having a ceremony at the end, not traveling on the Sabbath). In other words, there is not reason to think they were setting it apart as a special meeting time at all for religious meetings, only for getting money, or they happened to be together after the Sabbath was over.  Our congregation meets all day on the Sabbath and we do the Havdallah ceremony at the end to set the Sabbath apart and mark the end of the day (at sundown sat.).  So we are also together on the first day of the week consequently as most observant Jews are to this day. Don't forget it was Jesus custom to go the synagogue on the Sabbath-
Luk 4:16

He came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. He entered, as was his, into the synagogue on the day of Shabbat, and stood up to read.

The point I was making about the Romans 14 passage is that it is not saying that some worship on Sabbath and some worship on Sunday, but that some think all the intermediate days of a holiday are holy, and some think only the one's God declared holy are holy.  In other words, it doesn't support the view that we should keep sun. unless the context is left out.

Additionally, none of the disciples were Christians, and neither was Jesus.  What I mean is, sun. observance was not practiced, neither were alter calls, there were no churches, and nothing that we would recognize as distinctly Christian.  If one of the disciples came into a church today, assuming they could understand English,  they would wonder why we don't mention the exodus from Egypt in our songs and prayers, and why we don't keep the Sabbath, and why we don't keep the festivals.
You see to them, Jesus was the Messiah because the law and the prophets (another term for Scripture) testified that he was.  The law and the prophets also tell us that the Messiah will not change the law, and if someone comes saying he speaks for God and does tell the people not to obey any of the laws, then that person is a false prophet -

Deut 13:1-5

1 " If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ' Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 " You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

In this passage, going after other gods is equated with not obeying the commandments.  This explains why Jesus clarified in Matt. 5 that he did not come to do away with them (that would be the equivalent of serving other gods).  He went on to add that whoever (Jew or gentile) teaches the law and keeps it, will be called great in the kingdom, while whoever (Jew or gentile) breaks them and teaches others to break them will be called the least.
He also stated that heaven and earth will not pass away before the law.

Secondly, the church is not mentioned in the Bible.  The word church is a Latin word that was used later to translate the Greek word ecclesia (sp?).
This word was previously used to describe Israel.  Check out Stephens speech-

Acts 7:37 - 38

"This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, `GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN.' 38 "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.

The word congregation above is the same one translated church most everywhere else (ecclesia).  This is to make a distinction that doesn't exist in the Bible between Israel and "the Church".  From the disciples view, they were the righteous remnant of Israel along with the gentiles who believed, and through the Messiah, the gentiles became part of Israel, and God's covenant with Israel.  When in the NT they say that the Jews persecuted the "church" (ecclesia), what the NT writers are conveying is that the "Jews" that were persecuting them were the same "Jews" that Stephen points out didn't follow God in the wilderness.


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[oneBook]

-----part 2------

To be saved, we have to have a covenant with God, in order to take part in the covenant, we have to be part of Israel.  Why?  Show me a covenant in the Bible that is made with anyone besides Israel.... there are none.  God doesn't have mistresses, only a bride (and only one at that).

The practices of the church today came partially from the Catholic church, which derived much of it's practice from paganism.  They pray to the "queen of heaven" who is mentioned as a false God in the OT (Jer. 7:18, 44:17,18,19,25).  Constantine the first "Christian" emperor of Rome was a sun god worshipper, and in his mandate that Sunday should be observed, he calls it the "venerable day of the sun".  He then goes on to forbid worship on the Sabbath on pain of death.  This is straight out of the anti-Christ playbook-
Dan. 7:25

25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time

I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't keep the Sabbath is the anti-Christ, but that they are inadvertently following his agenda.  Constantine when on to murder his own family (after he became a "Christian").

I would tell anyone not to take my word for it, but when you go back and examine the 1st century "church" what you find is much more like a synagogue.

Paul goes to speak in the synagogue every place he goes.  They continue to meet there if the synagogue accepts the message, but if not, then they are forced to meet in houses, etc. Note in James 2:2-

For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

The word translated "assembly" here is actually the word "synagogue".  


By the way, the Jews who rejected the message really objected to the inclusion of gentiles in Israel without circumcision, not that Jesus was the Messiah.  Read the excerpt from a book that my wife posted on another discussion-

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=5004

The leadership in Jerusalem had issues besides that having to do with authority- if Jesus was the Messiah, king of Israel, then the disciples should be rulers of Israel (as Jesus said they would be).  Of course in the issue with Paul, he was outside Jerusalem where the leadership jealousy was an issue, and now the issue was with gentile inclusion jealousy.

In all this, we must realize that when we see gentiles in the NT, they are God fearers who go to synagogue, and follow the word of God to the best of their understanding.  The word was only the OT, and you can bet they were eating kosher, keeping Sabbath, etc. if they knew about it.  Think about it, if you were a believer and the only Bible you had stated "God said to do xyz" then you would do it!  Not only that, but all God's people do what it says as well (physical Israel).

So brother Israel, when you read Romans 10 and 11, realize that you have been grafted in to Israel by the grace of God, and that all the things that God commanded to Israel to do, he has placed on your heart (Jer. 31, and Heb. .  Note here also, the New Covenant is made only with Israel, and the Law that Israel had broke will be kept by all since it will be on their heart.  A friend of mine asked me once if I have God's law written on my heart, so I of course said "yes".  Then he asked me, what are the 10 commandments then?  At the time, I think I got a few of them right, but it somewhat illustrated the point that sometimes we get used to saying things without dwelling on the reality.

Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of edicts contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Blessings and Peace on you and all Israel

-oneBook

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[Silver Surfer]

"The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE" (Romans 3:22).

<))><

Point #1.) "All His commandments are Righteousness", (Psalms 119:172).

"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).

[musicllover]

Onebook,
           Well thank you for the honor, the confusion is more on my part than yours, you understand completely what your saying....me on the other hand find it hard to understand that Christians didn't worship on Sunday, but they did gather together, for breaking of bread, or offerings etc etc. I don't disagree but neither do I agree. I guess it comes down to what some might call worship, fellowship or just people plan a night together to play cards or something. And because I've always been taught that Christians seperated themselves from the Jews after Christ's assention, so they began worshipping on a Sunday. I'll have to do some research to find any proof of that though.
       and again neither Sat, or Sun worship is what gets someone into Heaven, know amount of relegion is going to do it either......shoot people can make a relegion of going to the bar every Saturday night. It the condition of the heart and belief in what Jesus done.
        I have no intentions of furthering the plans of the anti christ, I attend church with a heart to worship, makes no difference if its Sun or Sat. everything that we do glorifies Jesus, we sing, pray, read scriptures, fellowship, take communion, Jesus is lifted up proclaimed savior, how is this inadvertantly furthering the anti christ spirit? Even the anti christ spirit has to flew in the name of Jesus and where Jesus is being glorified, on every day of the week.
blessings,
musicllover