One Father who is in heaven

[His_child]

As stated by, Tibby i know of no Catholic who thinks the Pope has not sinned, he goes to confesion just like the rest of us do. By the way he does not call himself holy father, we do (but we mean it in the definition used above).

My Catholic mother-in-law would disagree with you and tibby.

[Rich]

Darn, and i thought we were all perfect! Just kidding. There are bound to be people of every church or religous group who take things to extremes or are ill informed. May'be she should do a little studying of her own on what the Church teaches.

[His_child]

My mother-in-law has been a Catholic all of her 60 years on this earth. Unfortunately, she is as well educated on the Bible as the overwhelming majority of the Catholics I have met.

[Heidi]

The pope accepts the title "Hoy Father" quite willingly. All he has to say is "do NOT call me Holy Father and you better believe the tradition would be changed!

As for saying that i do not understand the catholic denomination, how in the world do you know what i have studied and what i have not studied, Rich? I have read the catechism and learned a lot more than i want to. On every Christian forum and catholic website I've been on, they clearly believe salvation is earned and can be lost. That does NOT agree with Christ's words. They also venerate Mary and other men. These are facts. To deny them would be a lie. You've accused me of lying many times just like atheists and Muslims accuse me of lying when i say that Jesus is the only way to God. I've found that usually the people who accuse others of lying are the liars themselves. What have i said about the catholic church that is not true?  In 1855, Pope Leo declared that Mary was a virgin all her life which is NOT scriptural in the least! These are all man-made doctrines which have been instituted by men. Where did Peter or Paul EVER say to worship them as Saints? Where did they EVER say to pray to Mary or other dead people? This is all made up stuff that diverts our attention from Christ. Again, we have different fathers so we're never going to agree. There's then np point in continuing this exchange.

[Tibby]

Yeah, Rich, color me surprised. I thought all Catholics where well-versed in the Catecism and wise is the ways of the Lord Tell me, justme, do you also stop eating when you had a taste of something bad? Don't make these a Hasty Generalization. Your In-laws personal belief doesn't prove anything but that you marrying into a family of people who care little for the faith.

How in the world do we know what you have studied and what you have not studied, Heidi? Simple. Unlike Justme's family, we  know what we believe. So, when you tell us something like "Catholics worship Mary," you can't back it up, as we have yet to meet a Catholic who does worship Mary, and we know by their fruits they are Christian. We know what you have and have not studied by your fruits, Heidi. By the words that come from your fingertips, we can tell you know nothing of Catholics or what they believe.

[Heidi]

Oh the catholcis say they worship Christ just like the Muslims say they worship allah, but all of Islam puts their faith in Mohammed's words that allah even exists! Why in the heck to catholics even think about Mary, as if she died for us? Jesus all but ignored her, yet the catholics venerate her! Jesus said we are all brothers and sisters, no one better than another! So why do you contradict Jesus and put some people on pedestals? THAT is idol worship. That is my whole point! Playing God, deciding what human being is BETTER than another. All human beings have fallen short of the glory of God. The catholics have decided that Mary is mightier than others, a virgin all her life, no less. If she never slept with Joseph, then she ignored what Paul said about not depriving one's spouse of a sexual relationship. This obsession with Mary is bizarre and completely unscriptural!  This putting PEOPLE on pedestals and calling them saints, even people who did horrible things in the name of God, like previous popes. Statues of PEOPLE in the CHURCH! I expect statues of people in the pagan world because the pagans do "heroize" people because they don't believe in God. They have no choice. Only God decides at judgment day who sits closer to Him. But the catholic church thinks it IS God which is evident in the catechism so IT decides who is holy and who is not. Who do they think they are? Again, I do not raise ANY man above another and neither does Paul. Christ said, "No one is good but God alone." Again, the ccatholic church apparently disagrees with Him on that also.  

[His_child]

Yeah, Rich, color me surprised. I thought all Catholics where well-versed in the Catecism and wise is the ways of the Lord Tell me, justme, do you also stop eating when you had a taste of something bad? Don't make these a Hasty Generalization. Your In-laws personal belief doesn't prove anything but that you marrying into a family of people who care little for the faith.

How in the world do we know what you have studied and what you have not studied, Heidi? Simple. Unlike Justme's family, we  know what we believe. So, when you tell us something like "Catholics worship Mary," you can't back it up, as we have yet to meet a Catholic who does worship Mary, and we know by their fruits they are Christian. We know what you have and have not studied by your fruits, Heidi. By the words that come from your fingertips, we can tell you know nothing of Catholics or what they believe.

Oh, my in-laws aren't the only Catholics I know. I've known many, many Catholics who do believe they worship Mary.

Now, I've had people on many message boards claim that these are just uninformed or misguided Catholics.
If they are so misinformed, why isn't the church doing more to inform them?

[Rich]

You are right i don't know what you've studied, but If you used the same approch to studying the catechism as you apparently do the Bible i can can see how your having problems. Jesus all but ignored his mother eh? On what do you base this conclusion? Do you honestly think everything that happened in Jesus life is written in the Bible? I'm pretty sure that even the Bible says otherwise. You may need to break out that old dictionary on the word good also you seem
have a misunderstanding on that as well. One more question for you, what did the first Christians use for a Bible since it wasn't compiled as we know until several hundered after Christs death? Do you think that they may have used Sacred Tradition, word of mouth and so on? Or is that anouther one of those bizzare Catholic inventions? No need to answer i'm pretty sure i know your response to that.

               Justme, thats a pretty broad assumption that most Catholics are not well educated in the Bible.I've met more than my share of evangelical, fundamentalist, mainline protestant, and any number of the other so called 'word church' members who don't have a clue either.  Obviously if reading scripture and having it be simlpe to understand were the case,there wouldn't be 20,000-30,000 different sects all
with a different take on things now would there? I'm sure that the churches you and Heidi attend have the full truth above all others and are the fast lane to Heaven, or until something pops up that doesn't fit your way of thinking, and then you can always go church shopping for another that better fits what YOU want to hear.
                   
 Heidi, while you have the dicionary out look up venerate, and worship just so you know the difference, you seem to have trouble telling the differences between certain words and how
they can be used.

[His_child]

Justme, thats a pretty broad assumption that most Catholics are not well educated in the Bible.I've met more than my share of evangelical, fundamentalist, mainline protestant, and any number of the other so called 'word church' members who don't have a clue either.  Obviously if reading scripture and having it be simlpe to understand were the case,there wouldn't be 20,000-30,000 different sects all
with a different take on things now would there? I'm sure that the churches you and Heidi attend have the full truth above all others and are the fast lane to Heaven, or until something pops up that doesn't fit your way of thinking, and then you can always go church shopping for another that better fits what YOU want to hear.

I do my best to help Christians understand the Word of God, so do most of the Christians I know.

I have tried very hard to refrain from making personal attacks because it does not make for a constructive conversation.

In quite a few posts, you have called others judgemental, yet you've failed to see the fact that you are judging them also. If you continue to pass judgements on others and then tell them not to be judgemental- what does that make you?

I have many times squirmed in my seat because the pastor said or read something in the Bible that made me feel conviction. Many Christians I know have felt convicted at times. I can't say the same is true of the Catholics I know.

[C C]

     Now you guys are moving off the topic of Heidi's original BEEF with the man that calls himself "infalliable" and worthy of worship.  She's not whining about his "Title"!  Her Beef is that he puts himself in between man and God.  Ah, the anti-Christ wants to do that too.  

[Tibby]

Yeah, cand, it is strange how Heidi and Justme are the ones ranting about Catholicism. To all the Catholics on this board, Christian in enough. But not for these 2. They are to busy ranting to realize how unchristian their behavior really is.  Honestly, guys, what is this obession? Did Catholics beat you both up as kids or something? What is with all the hostility. Does not Paul say in 1 Cor that God will take care of the unchristian? If Catholics are unchristian, what are you guys so worried about? God will take care of those who are not of Christ, but still do things in his name. Let God handle it. He doesn't need you to be is smiting stick. If Catholics are so evil, the God will rid them from the Earth.

[Heidi]

I stand up for Christ because there are some former catholics who are seekers and want to truly hear Christ's message instead of indoctrination from the church. I have known so many former catholics who not only hate the church now but hate Christianity because they were judged so severely in the catholic church. I want them to know not to blame Christianity for the false teachings in the catholic church. They can still be saved if they come to Christ. They've got to hear Jesus's message somewhere. We're basically trying to undo the damage that these people received from the catholic church.

[Tibby]

Point being? I know many, many more former protestants who became Catholic then the other way around. Hey, what do ya know, I am one of them!  

Your friends left the church and hate it now? Why is that Rome’s fault? Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Do you think filling their heads with hateful factoids really HELPS them? It only fuels their hate. Only makes them more upset. Don't tell them why Catholicism is wrong, tell them why what you believe are right. If what you believe if the truly sent directly from God, they will be more then happy to join up with you, God will remove the scales of Catholicism from their eyes, and they will see the Truth of the matter.

[Rich]

    Candice,
         Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe the topic is about the title 'father' or 'holy father' , and for which she has been given many responses. Once again ignorance is rearing its ugly head, the Pope does NOT call himself infallible, and would correct any man or woman who worshipped him. He does not put himself between God and man, the only people i see doing that are the misinformed folks that keep claiming he does.For some reason they keep trying to place him there to fit their anti-Catholic agenda. So be it, as long as I know the difference,and all 1,000,000,001 Catholics Know the difference thats fine with me. Oops, i forgot, subtract one
justme's mother-in law is a little confused on how the whole thing works too.
       If your interested to know, the Pope is not infallible,
if he was to say for instance that the Red Sox were going to win the world series, or that it was going to rain cats and dogs, or anything relating to everyday things, its not any different than you or i saying it. If however he is talking from
the chair  of Peter  and it has to be matter of faith and morals
well then yes it is infallible, which is very Biblical, but i'm sure
i will get told otherwise. If you do some checking i'm not sure will find where Pope John Paul II has even made any infallible
statements.It just goes to show that people are once again making statements about what it is THEY think THEY know about the Catholic Church.
         I'm the one being judgemental eh? I have not once said that any of you were not Christian, or the anti-Christ,
just because people try to correct misconceptions and out right lies that are being said, and then asking for said people
to back up their claims. If thats the case than color me judgmental, but i guess that shouldn't matter anyway since
i'm not a ' true born again Christian' as Heidi pointed out.
        As said before you really should try to get your info
from someplace other than Jack Chick tracts, or if your not
getting it from there may'be you should help him write some new material, i hear he's looking for a few good writers.
       Obviously this whole debate is going nowhere so i
wish you peace and happiness and hope you will alwys stay
so committed to loving the Lord.
                                                Peace in Christ,
                                                           Rich

[Tibby]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe the topic is about the title 'father' or 'holy father'

You're both wrong. This topic is about attacking Catholics for no other reason then the fact that they are Catholics.