One Father who is in heaven

[ebia]

Just respond to the ccc 889 and 890. Even the cc catechisms are inconsistent in what is presented.

What's your problem with 889 and 890?  Maybe you just don't understand them.

The entire foundation is wrong to begin with- Peter was not the first pope and I challenge you to present one shred of scriptural evidence that he even visited Rome.

AFAIK off the top of my head the bible doesn't say he did visit Rome.  That doesn't prove that he didn't.  The bible doesn't say that John Paul II lives in Rome either, but I'm pretty sure you'll find it's true.

In the entire scriptural record where people who are addressed as being in Rome and apostles named, Peter's name is always conspicuously lacking. Surely someone of his stature would be named?

Depends - maybe he wasn't there at the time the letter was written.  Or their were two (or more congregations) and the letter wasn't written to his.  Or any number of other reasons.

My view is that the RCC is indeed ecclesiastical Babylon and the Anti-christ will certainly use it.

Your view on the matter would be more interesting if it were based on fact instead of misinformation and prejudice.

[aw]

There is far too much error in the RCC to even begin to discuss it on a forum such as this. I am going to drop it as Christ is proclaimed and a few are probably true children of God.

However, I do obseve the arrogance of a large percentage who belong to that organization. That is ALL that it is- an organization. It is NOT, as they claim, the body of Christ. Membership in that organization has nothing in this world to do with salvation. The Pope is just a man with absolutely nothing special about him at all, except that he may be a fellow believer. To call him the Magesterium of the church as the body of Christ is blasphemous on its face.

It may even be a CULT, since for salvation, if anything is added to the finished work of Christ it is, by most defintions, a CULT.  A SUMMARY: Christ + nothing = salvation; Christ + anything or anyone = DAMANTION. (John 3:16, Eph 2:8-10)

It is so full of non-scriptural heresies and blasphemies that it, as I have said, would be too long, but I will name a few- baptismal regeneration, trabsubstantiation, prayers for the dead, purgatory, celibacy, and the veneration of Mary.

I will end this by saying that the "SIGN OF THE CROSS" is nothing more than the mystic "TAU" of the Chaldeans and Egyptians. It originated from the letter "T" which is the initial name for "TAMMUZ" as used in the BABYLONOIAN MYSTERIES for the same MAGIC PURPOSES as the Romish church employs it.

Eternity hangs in the balance so, "All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. For there is no other name in heaven or earth whereby one might be saved. For by GRACE are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the GIFT of God.

To declare that the catholic church is the dispenser of that grace is both blasphemous and repugnant!

All of which is related to the RCC and not intended to be directed toward an individual. If you are in it, I reccomend that you prayerfully consider leaving it asap.

aw

[Heidi]

Amen, Aw! One of the reasons so many people leave the catholic church is that they teach that we can lose our salvation! Talk about pushing people out the door! Their faith is very rocky indeed! They obviously do not have very much faith in the power of the Holy Srirt, but instead rely on man to save himself! If he could, then we wouldn't NEED forgiveness from Christ! But if they some day decide to put their faith in Christ instead of the pope, they could understand why Jesus said, "No one can snatch them out of my hand." Again, this idol worship is the hallmark of a cult. They see themselves as a cult or why would they consider themselves as catholics before Christians? They are definitely setting themselves apart from Christians.

[ebia]

There is far too much error in the RCC to even begin to discuss it on a forum such as this. I am going to drop it as Christ is proclaimed and a few are probably true children of God.

"But I'll throw in a few more vague, unsupported, accusations and lies before I go."

It may even be a CULT, since for salvation, if anything is added to the finished work of Christ it is, by most defintions, a CULT.

Thats not the definition of a cult, and the RCC doesn't do that, so wrong on both counts.

I will end this by saying that the "SIGN OF THE CROSS" is nothing more than the mystic "TAU" of the Chaldeans and Egyptians. It originated from the letter "T" which is the initial name for "TAMMUZ" as used in the BABYLONOIAN MYSTERIES for the same MAGIC PURPOSES as the Romish church employs it.

What are you, a mormon or something?  (It is the mormon's who insist he died on stake not a cross isn't it? Or is that the JW's - I get those to mixed up a bit?)

There are only so many symbols in the world.  Just about every symbol in Christianity exists in one or another pre-Christian religion.  To prove what you want to prove, you've got to prove that a link exists - that the group you want to condemn actually got the symbol from a pagan group.  All youv'e managed is guilt by association.

All of which is related to the RCC and not intended to be directed toward an individual. If you are in it, I reccomend that you prayerfully consider leaving it asap.

If you really gave a stuff, you'd be prepared to learn what the Catholic church actually teaches, and address that properly.

[ebia]

Amen, Aw! One of the reasons so many people leave the catholic church is that they teach that we can lose our salvation!

And I'm sure Michael would love to defend that against anything you can throw against in on any of the many threads devoted to the topic.  So if you've actually capable of defending your view, there's your chance.

Talk about pushing people out the door!

How's that pushing people out the door?

Their faith is very rocky indeed!
They obviously do not have very much faith in the power of the Holy Srirt, but instead rely on man to save himself! If he could, then we wouldn't NEED forgiveness from Christ!

Attacking straw men again, because any Catholic knows perfectly well that only Christ can save them.

But if they some day decide to put their faith in Christ instead of the pope,

It is. You keep repeating this accusation without ANY supporting evidence.  Put up, or shut up.

they could understand why Jesus said, "No one can snatch them out of my hand."

It appears that you don't.

Again, this idol worship is the hallmark of a cult.

Inventing the idol worship again, without support.  

They see themselves as a cult or why would they consider themselves as catholics before Christians?

They don't.

They are definitely setting themselves apart from Christians.

Supporting evidence, please.

[Heidi]

Ebia, were you ever born again? I don't hear the Holy Spirit in you at all! The Holy Spirit doesn't tell people to shut up or that they are ingorant fools. Your posts have proven my point exactly about the catholic church! Most catholics I know put their faith in the pope rather than the Holy Spirit. If your faith was in the Holy Spirit, then its fruits would come out of you. Instead you put your faith in the "rules and regulations of men", as Christ put it. You have also not shown faith in the Holy Spirit because you think man's will to walk away is stronger then the power of the Holy Spirit! Again, that is what the catholic's teach. I hear a lot of desperation in you, not faith, hope, love, patience, joy, and self-control. Those are the fruits of the spirit. I'll pray that some day you can come to know christ personally. Then you will know what we are talking about.

[Rich]

Heidi,
Your constant attacks against the Catholic Church do nothing
but show how little you know about her teachings or her members. I have seen your postings on the web site you are talking about, and the reason you were banned is because of
your abusive ways. To be honest i really don't see the Holy Spirit in you.
I've been a Catholic all my life, been around them all
my life, and i have yet to come across any that put their faith in the Pope as you claim. We're well aware who we need to put  our faith in, it seems you think that we're the ignorant fools. By the way have you been born again? the biblical way?
I see in you a person who likes to throw out alot of accusations and missunderstood thoughts on what the Catholic Church believes, teaches, defends etc. but seem to have very little real understanding aside from your own hatred and lack of knowledge. I pray that you will learn to be more charitable and take time to learn a little about that love, joy, patience and self control of which you speak. Then you will know how what we're talking about.

                                                                                                         

[ebia]

Ebia, were you ever born again? I don't hear the Holy Spirit in you at all! The Holy Spirit doesn't tell people to shut up or that they are ingorant fools.

"put up or shut up" is a common figure of speach - back up or accusations or stop making them.

Your posts have proven my point exactly about the catholic church! Most catholics I know put their faith in the pope rather than the Holy Spirit.

's interesting, because I'm not Catholic.   Show's how carefully you read stuff and how valid your conclusions are.

[Heidi]

I simply find calling the pope "Holy Father" blasphemous to my Lord and Saviour. I think it's offensive to our Lord.I understand why Jesus said not to call anyone on earth 'father'. You may not. That is your perrogative. It seems to bother you more when the catholic church is attacked than your Lord and Saviour, Rich. Again, that shows what you value more. How is that my fault?  

[Rich]

Heidi,
 It find bothersome when anyone attacks either one, i guess
i must have some really mixed up values eh? Why is it that unless everyone agrees with you they're blasphemous, offensive, folks who according to you must not know and understand the Bible? If according to the way sola scriptura works you have no right to explain anything to me, i just need to read the Bible and whatever my interpretation is it must be correct. If thats not the way it works than it sure is a mystery as to how there got to be so many differing beliefs in such a short time (well since Martin Luther anyway). Just because you can't understand why we call the Pope Holy Father and continue to try to push your interpretation of particular verses to fit your understanding you don't have to get so hostile or judgemental. Again it shows that apparently you can not stand to be wrong, or even listen to what others are trying to tell you. Again i know where my values lie and so does the good Lord, i guess we"ll all have to answer someday. Boy for a web site called Christians unite there sure seems to be everything but that.        
                                            Peace in Christ

[Heidi]

I guess you didn't understand what i call blasphemous. Jesus said not to call anyone 'father' because we have only one Father and He is in heaven. I find it blapshemous that not only does the catholic church ignore His words, but they replace Him with the pope. Apparently you agree with them instead of Jesus which is why you don't consider that blasphemous, nor understand why it IS blasphemous.  

If your interpretaion of Christ's words agrees with Christ then you are worshipping Christ. But if it specifically contradicts Christ like the catholic church does, then you and they are calling Him a liar. I take offense at this. You obviously do not. His words cannot be any clearer.

Instead of attacking me personally, which seems to be easy for you, you would fare better at trying to understand Christ's words instead of attacking the people who believe Him. As for being right, a person can only be right if he's right. I am far more interested in the truth than in being right. If I am right, for some reason that bothers you...a lot. Otherwise, the subject wouldn't have come up at all. This isn't a game of who is right or wrong, but a search for the truth. I have nothing to defend but Christ's words. NOBODY can convince me He's wrong.  

[ollie]

The word's of, the church at Rome's, first "Pope", Peter:

 Acts 10:25.  And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
 26.  But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

This does not appear to be a man that would refer to himself as, "Holy Father". Or want anyone to refer to him as such.

Have the "Popes" since Peter displayed this true holiness of "being just a man"? Or do they except bowing down to them as if on a higher plane than the other church of Rome members? Do they put themselves on a pedestal?

Would Peter who "also am a man" and God's apostle, through whom the Holy Spirit has brought to rembrance the teachings and doctrines of Christ, be such a respector of himself or persons?

Ollie

[Heidi]

Calling oneself the Holy Father and infallible is not seeing oneself as just a man. The only one who deserves those titles is God Himself. We are all sinners, no better or worse then the next guy. The most humble of us is the one who sees the degree of man's sinful nature and knows that none of us deserves the title "Hoy Father". He gives no credit to himself but to God alone for his goodness. Such a man would be sickened at being called a holy father. that's why Peter responded that he was just a man. the catholic church disagrees with him. I do not.

[Rich]

Heidi,
    The only one i see that is apparently infallible is you. Anyone can take scripture out of context and use it for what they claim to be the truth. The Jehovah's Whitnesses will quote 1 Timothy 2:5 as proof Jesus is not God, but we know thats not true don't we? Just before Mathew 23:9 in Mathew 23:8 it says to call no man teacher (rabbi) yet everyone seems to use that term with no problem. Let me ask you this, do you believe in the real presence in the communion you recieve or is just a symbol? Was He talking symbolically or when He said in John 6 "My flesh is real food:My blood is true
drink,"etc. everyone listening to Him understood he meant them literally many left because they couldn't grasp this teaching, did He go after them and say no I'm only talking symbolically or did he let them go? There are texts in the Bible that say Jesus is man and others that say he is God. We don't throw out either, both are true. Jesus says we are to call no man 'father', yet Christ Himself, St. Stephen,St. James, and St. Paul all refer to men as 'father'. I am guessing
by your statements that you think we believe the Pope is infallible in every thing he says and does? If thats the case you really should study up on what you think it is the Catholic
Church teaches. You have yet to show where what the Church teaches contradicts scripture, seem just seem to get very upset when someone points out that YOUR interpretation may not be correct. As far as personally attacking you, i used the same words you used to ebia. If there is any attacking going on its usually on your end. If you say its not a matter of right and wrong and that your more interested in the truth than in being right i guess i always tought that the truth and right would be the samething, because if your wrong and what you claim is wrong it can't be the truth. I suggest that in your search for the truth you
try not to be so judgmental of others, and please may'be tke the time to read the whole context of something before you
start making accusations. Remember that anyone can take a single verse out of the Bible and make it say what THEY want.
This happens rather frequently anymore just look how many
'word churches' there are out there now, and they each have a little differant understanding of scripture than the one they left before.

[Heidi]

And what do you think He meant by not calling anyone 'father'?