One Father who is in heaven

[C C]

   You GO Heidi!  I personally detest the worship of men to the point where I get steam blowing out of my ears at the mere insinuation that a man might be accepting worship.  If I were God,   and I'm not, but if I were God, I would be very jealous of men that gave any indication that they were worthy of worship.  And if I were God,   and I'm not any man that gave any indication that he was worthy of worship would be in danger of my heal fire--of course the raging fury of God's love is pretty scary.  So, I have to admit that people that go ahead and let folks bow to 'em have got to have at the least lots of intenstinal fortitude.  Anyway, I'm not saying you're right offending folks because there's steam coming out of your ears.  I'm just saying, I've got steam coming out of my ears over the same topic over and over and over and folks wont get it.  Alas, waiting util someone is ready to listen before you speak is called, "carrying the cross"

Love You!

[His_child]

Calling oneself the Holy Father and infallible is not seeing oneself as just a man. The only one who deserves those titles is God Himself. We are all sinners, no better or worse then the next guy. The most humble of us is the one who sees the degree of man's sinful nature and knows that none of us deserves the title "Hoy Father". He gives no credit to himself but to God alone for his goodness. Such a man would be sickened at being called a holy father. that's why Peter responded that he was just a man. the catholic church disagrees with him. I do not.

Amen!

[Heidi]

Thanks you guys! It's great to be on a forum with true born again Christians who worship only our Lord and Saviour as the only way to our Holy Father!

[Tibby]

Bravo Heidi, well said. You have a true gift. So tell us, how long have you been able to read men’s hearts and know their intentions?

[Heidi]

Jesus said, "by their fruits you will reocgnize them." Is that not true?

[Rich]

By what fruit would we recognize you by? It seems that if somebody has a different interpretation of something from you they are blasphemous, lying, idol worshipping, bunch of heathens. It would be nice to know how long you've had the
gift of reading mens hearts, and the even more impressive gift of being able to judge them. I have always been taught that that was Gods place. So in answer to your question yes we surely will be recognized by our fruits. I don't claim to be anything more than a sinner in need of the the gift that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ gave to us by going to the cross.
But i can't sit by and allow people to make such utterly ignorant statements that they apparently know little about without trying to correct their mistaken ideas on what i believe. By the way what is it that makes a true born again Christian? As i asked you before have you been born again the Biblical way? You really do need to do a little homework
on what it is you think the Catholic Church teaches. You really do need to look at the whole context of scripture before you make the claims you do.
                                        ps
                                          i wonder why we were told in
                                         the ten commandments to
                                       " honor our mother and father "
                                           hmm maybe that should be
                                               pops, dad, sir, anything
                                               but 'father'
                                                                       

[Tibby]

Yes, as Rich said, What fruits do you see? Clearly, not the same fruits as everyone else.

You are the one jumping around pointing fingers, throwing out lies and accusing others of all kinds of heresy and blasphemy. What kind of fruit is that? Are Christians in the belittling business now? Did I miss that memo?

[Heidi]

What have i acuused any one of? Jesus warns us not to call anyone 'father' and I believe Him. If the catholic church does that, then how is that my fault? Is it not true that they do that? Who is the one who is lying? It is the catholic church who uses the term heresy quite often and points fingers. Is that not true? In fact, they now want to deny communion to John Kerry because he is a sinner. Are all the rest who take communion not sinners? The actions of the catholic church speak for themselves. We are all accountable for our actions, the catholic church included. Again, Jesus told us "by their fruits, you will recognize them." Again, I believe Him.

[Tibby]

You are comparing your self to an entire Church, now? The Catholic Church doesn’t “Point finger” they make informed descriptions once they have all the facts. The Church has an army of Researchers and investigators to get all the facts. You are talking about things and people you know nothing about, and calling it all heresy before getting any facts, and you aren’t even trying to hear the other side.

Jesus also wanted us to cut off the parts of our body that make us sin, why don’t you go and do that, then we can talk about the other things Jesus wanted us to do.

[Rich]

You are the one who keeps saying it it blasphamy to call any one on earth father. It has been pointed out to you that you are not taking the whole context of what Jesus was saying at that particular time and place, and to whom he was addressing. Read ALL of Mathew 23: 1-11, if you have too,read several times. It has also been pointed out that Paul
used the word father on numerous occasions, my guess is thats because he knew what Jesus was talking about and  in what context. Was he a blasphemer? Its not our fault that certain individuals read scripture in a very dangerous way. Thats why the Church has had to use the term heresy, to
correct problems that have came up because of private interpretation, misinterpretaions, personal agendas etc.
As for denying communion to John Kerry, read 1 cor.11:17-34
it can't be any clearer than that, yes we are all sinners, but before we are to receive the Lords Body and Blood we are to examine ourselves, admit that we are sinners and ask for his forgiveness. John Kerry seems to think his pro abortion stance is not a very grave sin, so it would be taking communion in an unworthy manner. So if the actions of the Church upset you on this issue it is you who is not heeding
the Lords words. The Church is following them just as she should in this case. As you say we are accountable for our actions, i'm very secure in my actions and those of the Catholic Church, yes members of the Church have made mistakes, done terrible things, acted in manners unfitting their positions, but as you said we are all sinners and only the good Lord knows what is in each mans heart, everyone will have to answer for their actions. You can't blame the Catholic Church for the actions of her members anymore than you can say that because we're Americans we're all greedy, have no morals, and think that if it feels good do it type people, even though hollywood would like to portray us as so.
 

[Heidi]

I am simply obeying Christ's words when i don't call anyone on earth 'father'. The church can disobey Him if they want, but i am free to consider it blasphemy.

Yes, we are all sinners, including the pope and the priest, none of us worthy of being called infallible, our spiritual fathers, much less, our Holy Father. Paul's reference to fathers is in regard to earthly descendants of Abraham. He does NOT say, ANYWEHRE, that those fathers are our holy fathers, nor would he ever be inclined to do so because of his reverence for his Father in heaven. You never did answer my question, Rich, about what you think Jesus meant by not calling anyone on earth 'father'. You're more interested in attacking me instead of making a rational defense of what you consider Christ's meaning.

The catholic church gives communion to people who say "Hail Mary's" when they have sinned. this is also not scriptural but it doesn't stop the church from giving them communion.

The Nazi party was also a large party. Does that mean they were infallible and knew best about what is right and wrong? Your argument about the church being large has nothing to do with whether or not it is scriptural.

[His_child]

Hey Heidi- I love my family and friends. When I go grocery shopping, I only bring home the finest, freshest fruits for them to eat.
Nothing wrong with being a fruit inspector in the Spiritual sense either.

This morning's sermon was on Mark 7:1-23. It could easily be applied to many churches, especially the RCC.

[Tibby]

I really didn’t read your post that thoroughly, kind of scanned thru it. It seems like textbook anti-Catholic. Plus, then you claim to be following what Jesus said, and still have not cut off the parts of your body that cause you to sin, it kind of makes me wonder. You say we are all sinners, so doesn't that mean you sin, too? If so, do you still have all your limbs intact?

You have all of your facts wrong, and even if I correct you, you will tell me I am wrong, because you seem to have this idea that you know more about the Catholic faith then Catholic.

You did say one thing we can all agree on "The pope is a sinner." Ya think? When did anyone say he wasn't?

[Rich]

I could point out many verses that will show that the Church is indeed infallible, but you would just spew more worn out anti-Catholic notions. Just as there are many verses that show calling a man 'father' is not going against what the Lord said. It doesn't matter, as Tibby said you will not listen nor take the time to investigate the info given you. There seems to be alot of people here that claim they know what the Catholic Church is, but from their posts they know very little and sadly even less about scripture or the meaning behind what is being taught. It would help if you would at least pick up copy of the catechisim, not to try to convert you mind you, but at least than you could look for yourself what it is that she teaches instead what it is you think she teaches.


Once again would you please look the word holy up in the dictionary,- ' living according to a strict or highly moral religous
or spiritual system, saintly'. Now if i get this right you have just stated Paul was refering to earthly fathers, so you admit that it is alright to call certain people 'father'. Well if thats the case than when we add 'holy' as used in the description above it does nothing to take away from God our HOLY FATHER. Just because you can't tell in which context to use holy, don't assume that everyone has that problem. The context that Mathew is addressing in 23 is the sin of pride among the scribes and Pharisees. In their pride they pointed to themselves rather than to God the Father from whom they received their true fatherhood. As stated by, Tibby i know of no Catholic who thinks the Pope has not sinned, he goes to confesion just like the rest of us do. By the way he does not call himself holy father, we do (but we mean it in the definition used above).

[Tibby]

This morning's sermon was on Mark 7:1-23. It could easily be applied to many churches, especially the RCC.

Good point, Justme. Thanks for bringing this us. It is what the RCC has been trying to say for years!