One Father who is in heaven

[Heidi]

Sorry, Tibby, but the people in the catholic church are humans no better or worse than the rest of us. They are simply victims of false teaching in the catholic church. It is those souls whom I am addressing. The do have a chance at salvation if they come to their real Holy Father, not the one they call their holy father.

You have admitted, Rich, that you believe the pope is infallible concerning spiritual matters. Sorry, but Jesus said, "No one is good but God alone." Only God is infallible. Again, Jesus gives all the credit for who he is to God, not to Himself. The pope is just as likely to misunderstand God's word as the rest of us precisely becase he is not perfect. Pope leo declared that mary didn't have sex with Joseph even though that is not scriptural. People who think he's infallible will believe him before they believe the bible, christ, and the Holy Spirit. that is why this theory of infallibility is so dangerous. we ae then worshipping the wrong person.

[ebia]

You have admitted, Rich, that you believe the pope is infallible concerning spiritual matters. Sorry, but Jesus said, "No one is good but God alone." Only God is infallible.

So Isaiah and Paul weren't passing on the infallible word of God?  The pope isn't supposed to be infallible on his own account, but as an instrument of God.

Again, Jesus gives all the credit for who he is to God, not to Himself.

As does the Pope.

The pope is just as likely to misunderstand God's word as the rest of us precisely becase he is not perfect.

Perfectly true.  But the church trusts God to guide him when he speaks ex-cathedra.

Pope leo declared that mary didn't have sex with Joseph even though that is not scriptural.

Sorry - I must have missed the sex-scene in Luke's gospel.

People who think he's infallible will believe him before they believe the bible, christ, and the Holy Spirit.

On the contrary, the Pope tells them to believe the Bible, Christ and the Holy Spirit first.  

[ollie]

Ebia:

On the contrary, the Pope tells them to believe the Bible, Christ and the Holy Spirit first.

Those that have ears to hear, let them hear.

[C C]

   We're not attacking Catholics.  We're saying we don't believe the Pope to be infallible--Christ said his body of believers will not fail to do His work!!  Not that some man made institution cannot make mistakes.

We aren't living out our lives based on the massive texts and hundreds of millions of new rules that the Catholics have handed down since Christ.  We wont swollow it and we wont allow people preaching that there is a man on earth worthy of Worship in this Christian forum without having something to say about it.  

Clearly that are man worshippers here and as long as they try to get us to swollow whole everything a mere man who calls himself infallible and worthy of worship--

Let us get our ideas of worship in perspective--True Worship of God is the way we live out our lives, the principles that we live by and make our minute by minute decisions by--this is the true form of worship.  Because we LOVE Jesus we live out His love here.  We find out how to live out His love based on the accounts of His life here on earth by the EYE WITNESSES THAT KNEW HIM!!

What Catholics want us to do is live out our lives and let the words of man guide our thoughts and our actions.  The Pope isn't an eye witness to Christ so we aren't examining his texts to find out how to know our Lord better.  When we examine every writing that a mere man thinks and we live it out in our lives, we call this worship of man.  PERIOD.

Man worshippers, be gone.  We wont worship man, we worship God alone!!!

and as long as there are folks in the debate section that insist that we have to live by the rules that men--even if they call themselves infallible and even if they state they are worthy of worship--WE WONT HAVE IT!!  Not in the debate section.  

[ebia]

 We wont swollow it and we wont allow people preaching that there is a man on earth worthy of Worship in this Christian forum without having something to say about it.  

Every Catholic apologist here (or anywhere else) has strenuously denied that Pope is worthy of worship.

Let us get our ideas of worship in perspective--True Worship of God is the way we live out our lives, the principles that we live by and make our minute by minute decisions by--this is the true form of worship.  Because we LOVE Jesus we live out His love here.  We find out how to live out His love based on the accounts of His life here on earth by the EYE WITNESSES THAT KNEW HIM!!

None of which conflicts with Catholic teaching.  However, the Bible isn't the only way way we can learn about Christ. We should also be learning by our own relationship with him, and by what the body of Christ (the Church) can teach us about him.

What Catholics want us to do is live out our lives and let the words of man guide our thoughts and our actions.  The Pope isn't an eye witness to Christ so we aren't examining his texts to find out how to know our Lord better.  

Well, perhaps you should be.

When we examine every writing that a mere man thinks and we live it out in our lives, we call this worship of man.  PERIOD.

You can call it what you like, but it isn't worship, and your calling it such doesn't make it so.

[His_child]

When we examine every writing that a mere man thinks and we live it out in our lives, we call this worship of man.  PERIOD.

You can call it what you like, but it isn't worship, and your calling it such doesn't make it so.

What is it then?

[Rich]

Tibby & ebia,
       Not to worry anymore, i've got a phone call into the Pope
He'll be hittin the button to shut their computers down anytime now! He can do that you know. Yea he's got a whole underground army of computer nerds that can do it at a moments notice. That'll show 'em you just wait and see.
                                                 Rich

[ebia]

When we examine every writing that a mere man thinks and we live it out in our lives, we call this worship of man.  PERIOD.

You can call it what you like, but it isn't worship, and your calling it such doesn't make it so.

What is it then?

Listening to the God given wisdom of others.

[ebia]

Tibby & ebia,
       Not to worry anymore, i've got a phone call into the Pope
He'll be hittin the button to shut their computers down anytime now! He can do that you know. Yea he's got a whole underground army of computer nerds that can do it at a moments notice. That'll show 'em you just wait and see.
                                                 Rich

Hope you gave him an ear-full for taking so long about it.

[His_child]

When we examine every writing that a mere man thinks and we live it out in our lives, we call this worship of man.  PERIOD.

You can call it what you like, but it isn't worship, and your calling it such doesn't make it so.

Is it ever a good idea to just accept the "God given wisdom" of another?
What if what they claim is Scriptural really isn't?

What is it then?

Listening to the God given wisdom of others.

[ebia]

Is it ever a good idea to just accept the "God given wisdom" of another?

Of course.  That's exactly what you do when you read St Paul, Isaiah, or any biblical scholar or theologian or preacher.

What if what they claim is Scriptural really isn't?

Then:
a. it wouldn't be God given
and
b. listening to it might be foolish, but it's still not worship.

[Heidi]

Saying that Mary was a virgin all her life is not in the bible, ebia. So if the catholic church only passes on what's in the bible, why do they pass that along? Calling he pope "Holy Father" is not only not in the bible, it directly contradicts Christ's words, ebia. Elevating people to sainthood is not in the bible, ebia.  Attitudes about fasting again contradict Christ's words about fasting, ebia. Adorning the church with bronze statues of men contradicts the bible, ebia. Most of the rules in the catholic church are "teachings based on rules taught by men" (Christ's words). The non scriptural rules, rituals, and beliefs are exactly what we object to about the catholic church. if it did pass on scriptural mesages, I would have no problem with the catholic church.

[Brother Love]

Saying that Mary was a virgin all her life is not in the bible, ebia. So if the catholic church only passes on what's in the bible, why do they pass that along? Calling he pope "Holy Father" is not only not in the bible, it directly contradicts Christ's words, ebia. Elevating people to sainthood is not in the bible, ebia.  Attitudes about fasting again contradict Christ's words about fasting, ebia. Adorning the church with bronze statues of men contradicts the bible, ebia. Most of the rules in the catholic church are "teachings based on rules taught by men" (Christ's words). The non scriptural rules, rituals, and beliefs are exactly what we object to about the catholic church. if it did pass on scriptural mesages, I would have no problem with the catholic church.

One more AMEN!!!! Heidi

Brother Love

<))><

[His_child]

Saying that Mary was a virgin all her life is not in the bible, ebia. So if the catholic church only passes on what's in the bible, why do they pass that along? Calling he pope "Holy Father" is not only not in the bible, it directly contradicts Christ's words, ebia. Elevating people to sainthood is not in the bible, ebia.  Attitudes about fasting again contradict Christ's words about fasting, ebia. Adorning the church with bronze statues of men contradicts the bible, ebia. Most of the rules in the catholic church are "teachings based on rules taught by men" (Christ's words). The non scriptural rules, rituals, and beliefs are exactly what we object to about the catholic church. if it did pass on scriptural mesages, I would have no problem with the catholic church.

Excellent post Heidi! AMEN!

[Tibby]

Saying that Mary was a virgin all her life is not in the bible, ebia. So if the catholic church only passes on what's in the bible, why do they pass that along? Calling he pope "Holy Father" is not only not in the bible, it directly contradicts Christ's words, ebia. Elevating people to sainthood is not in the bible, ebia.  Attitudes about fasting again contradict Christ's words about fasting, ebia. Adorning the church with bronze statues of men contradicts the bible, ebia. Most of the rules in the catholic church are "teachings based on rules taught by men" (Christ's words). The non scriptural rules, rituals, and beliefs are exactly what we object to about the catholic church.

You keep saying these things are not in the bible, but not doing this isn't in the bible either, so we are at a crossroads. You are reading things into the bible that just arn't true. What about Fasting is wrong? Jesus makes it pretty clear we are to fast. We haven't a single "non scriptural rule." Our rules are the same rules observed by Peter, Paul and the rest of the early church. Look it up. You friends who wrote the NT seems to agree with us.

if it did pass on scriptural mesages, I would have no problem with the catholic church.

It does pass scriptural mesages, as we have shone you, but that didn't sway you.