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61  Theology / Bible Study / Re:Eternal Security Of The Believer on: March 30, 2004, 04:13:01 AM
Quote from: Petro
Its the same old argument, you desire to argue over, this is the reason you posted what you did, not because you want to learn, you have had these arguments before. So quit acking as thou you are the inujured party.

I desire to share my point of view

everydfay newborn

At least you are honest, and recognize this doctrine to be your view point. It is when you begin to teach it as though it was inspired that causes divisions.

you desire to share yours,

Thats where you are wrong, what I have shared with you is not my viewpoint, it is what Gods Word teaches, pure and simple.

it is not one that is in love and humbleness.

Oh, some  may schmooze you, and make you feel good by agreeing with you about the lose your salvation teaching, but in reality, love is reflected in the giving of Gods word out in truth and righteousness, and keeping the weak brethern from stumbling, it is good to keep Gods commandments, but, your viewpoint makes it clear, that by not keeping it, one can lose the gift.

And that is unscriptural.

Does that mean you're free to do what you want without any consequences, because you're saved and God's grace covers you?  If so, where does it say it's okay to sin?  If not, then what are the consequences of deliberate sin?

The scriptures answer this very question, perhaps if you should read Rom 5:15, through Rom 8:39, this will help you.

re those who believe that they must do works to get into heaven, but that is not the doctrine I'm sharing here.

You are speaking of unbelievers here, now....then??

Well, that changes everything, you quoted an OT scripture, to shore up this doctrine of sin and lose your gift.

Is it because you did not understand it?

commands  us to obey, and by doing so we'll remain in his love.  What happens if we don't obey is we won't remain in his love.

One can read about this very thing, concerning a fellow Christian in the early church at 1 Cor 5:1-5.

God is a jealouse God, especially for His namesake, Paul said  to the jews at;

Rom 2
24  For the name of God  is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25  For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27  And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God will allow satan to kill the flesh of those who insist on living in sin, who claim the blood of Jesus, even to kill the body, that the spirit might be saved.  So for this reason it is good to obey, it is the duty of Christians to be obedient, by this,one proves they Love the Lord.  Obedience produces more Faith, from Faith unto Faith., the Just shall live by Faith.

But the fearful, and the unbelievingand the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

Those who reject Jesus own words, are counted among those who are unbeliving, there are christians (they claim to be anyhow,) and yet reject Jesus own words concerning eternal life of those who are given to Him, by the Father.

Those who reject that eternal life is not the present state while claiming Jesus as savior, are really unbelievers, they are deceived.  Believers in Jesus, know and believe that they have eternal life, in Him, and it is based on what He did, at Calvary, not on their own performance.

This is the reason why I down play the need to keep the commandments, I say let everyman be a liar, but let God be true.

How can someone be saved who isn't in Christ's love?

When God gives those whom, He choses to the Son, they become the beloved, and these, are loved by Him, and we are assured, there is nothing that can separate us from His love,  nothing neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:35_39, you really should read Rom 8.

obey because we become slaves to God (Rom 6), and tells us what the results are for being obedient.  When we are obedient as slaves we are doing the will of the Father.  If we deliberately become disobedient, we're not in his will and have broken fellowship with him.  

We become like those who say 'Lord, Lord' but are cast away because they did not do the Father's will.  In our obedience to his Word, we are in the Father's love, doing his will, and thus have a relationship and fellowship with him.  Apart from our obedience, we have nothing.

You are reading more into this than scripture tells us, if one is slave to Christ, this means he is saved, they can never be like those of Mat 7:21-22 because Jesus shall say to them in that day, ............, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not I use to know you...but now I don't.

Broken fellowship, is quite different from being disowned, God does not disown His children.

I'm not saying that once you accept Christ, you commit a sin and lose your salvation, repent and get it again, commit another and lose it, repent and regain it, etc.

Well, how many sins, must one commit to be judged to an
eternaty in Hell??

It only takes one sin.

Your hypothetical just won't fly.

God's patience and grace run deep, and covers and always will cover those who are humble before God.  But if you deliberately continue to be disobedient even after you accepted Christ, and harden your heart, will such sins still be forgiven by God?  

62  Theology / Apologetics / Re:THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know on: March 29, 2004, 08:33:29 AM
Hello again Petro my brother.

Here is a quote from you...

"However, a verse came to mind as I read this message, with reagrd to the 2d paragraph of the 1st page;

"Col 2
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Now there at verse 12, is the resurrection, of which we who are saved are partakers of.

And he, who has part in the frist resurrection, he shall not be hurt by the second death.  (Rev 2:11, 20:6)


Whats wrong with it, is that"

 This in no way disprooves the Rapture Petro. Once you understand what is being described.  

You pointed out verse 12..."12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him  through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Why does it say also? This points out the fact that others are risen which did not die, that is a clear cut distinction, otherwise why use the term also? why not just say "burried with Him in baptism, are risen with Him?

 You know that many people are saved by Jesus from the time He lived until the day He returns. Obviously many thousands, even millions of believers are already dead going back two thousand years until present day. Those are "the dead in Christ" from the following verses...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

The dead are Raptured first...

 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 Then those of us who are still alive and remain remain where?...here on earth. Are caught up with them With who? the dead in Christ! this is the Rapture! It doesn't get more plain than this.

This verse describes both the dead and living being caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air!!

This is not the second coming...Jesus is not depicted returning on a white horse here, nor do His feet touch the Mount of Olives. He decends from Heaven with a shout In other words, He is calling His elect. And we meet Him in the clouds, in the air. The final sentence reads...

"and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

That is why we are depicted in Rev 19:14 returning to earth with Jesus If we weren't Raptured up to Heaven in the first place how can we be returning to earth with Jesus?

If we were to be left to face the horrors of the Great Tribulation why would we be asked to do the following...

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

It would seem a cruel joke if not for the Rapture wouldn't it Petro?

Jesus loves us!!


Nice to hear from you again..

You didn't make any sense to me on your previous post so, that is why I didn't answer it.

However on this one, you do make some sense of it.

The problem is that you mis interpret the word also at verse 12, in the original text the word is kai normally translated and, and by its use, one can understand what is being said;

12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

It is relative to being buried with Him in baptism, (not water baptism) but baptism with the Holy Spirit, (as promised at Jhn 1:33-34), thus the word also, it has nothing to do with others.

It is all by faith in the operation of what God has done.

And truly this is a matter of fact in this present life, for all who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit, without human hands.

Now how does this relate to your teaching, which says;

Christians can lose their salvation??

Must one be, unbaptised by with Holy Spirit, and be unresurrected, by faith in the operation of God???

It doesn't make any sense, ...............or does it??

By the way, I believe in a rapture, I am not necessarily convinced it is a Pre Trib event. It is the wrath of God, which we have been promised to be kept from, not tribulation, there is a difference .

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Christians are not of the world.

It seems to me christians seek the best of both worlds.....

Christians that believe in a Prer Trib, do very little in the way of evangelization, they would rather leave that task up to others, and send money, or join a prayer group for missions(not that there is anything wrong with either) but, if you saw ten christians carrying a telephone pole, nine on one end and one on the other, which end would you run to and help??

Gods not interested in our $ or prayers to HIM to send others, He desires us to wholly give of ourselves, to the work of the ministry of givinbg out His Word.


63  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: March 25, 2004, 12:57:28 AM
Jesus said;

Mat 12
 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

These are not risen souls/spirits yet What makes you think they are??.
Look at Rev 20:, it begings with John saying;  
1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having a key .................................... this vision is on the earth, then note;
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

he first resurrection are those who live and reign with Christ, this includes all those he brings with Himself at His appearing.

What about it??, everyone that is saved has been invited to a wedding feast, and according to Jesus at His parable they all received a wedding garment, it is not unreasonably to understand from the account of  Mat 22, that the garment was handed out as the wedding guest arrive, and remember the white robes are the righteousness of the saints :, there is nothing which supports that if they didn't posses robes, they would be walking around as naked bodies.

I don't lose sleep, over this, when Jesus died the graves were opened Mat 27:52-53 and many siants arose,the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many..whether they arose into the heavens We do not know.

You are welcome to your interpretation Petro. I have no trouble seeing these things as they are written.

Yes you do, since you, that is why you and Paul2 add words, to what is written..........you fill in where you are not sure..You may not see this but it is true. This is why it seems as thou your theory is all figured out.

I see the main sticking point for you as how the church is removed,

No,  you don't  "how the church is removed" is not the problem with me; but when the church is removed is, I don't agree with your theory, necessarily, and no one has made the case here yet, that it is removed at the beginning of the tribulation....the more we  keep posting the less evident it is to me, what I see, is a lot of specualting going on..on your part..

and then believers are killed for their testimony on earth, and, white robes grouping everyone together in one place or the other, where as I see the Church removed, and milli0ns coming to Christ because of the judgments being poured out on them. The way you are explaining these verses, a rapture could not take place until the very end of Revelation where Christ is seen returning to earth in chapter 19, and omit the promise of escaping wrath

That is nonsense, I already stated, when I believed the wrath begins, you may not have read my post, but it is nowhere  near Rev 19.
And besides the promise is, that WE are  to be kept from the hour of  temptation, not "escape" wrath.  Escaping and being kept from it are not exactly the same thing.
Lk21:35-36, cannot be split and separated, verse 36 is to be seeing in the light of verse 35, the snare that comes unawares, is that deception which cause the apostasia and comes on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth, who have not received the love of the truth, then comes the Day of the Lords return.

, going to the fathers house where many mansions are, the blessed promise for the living (not the martyred), why the 2 witnesses are doing the work that is suppose to be the churches, how the gates of hell are not only standing up, but falling outward to overcome the saints on earth. Then you say you believe in a pre-wrath view, which would have to take place before chapter 6. Now you tell me which version makes better sense and includes all the above.

It is clear to me, You have no idea what the pre wrath view entails, if what you are explaining is the wrath of God, then the pre wrath view, sees the church being raptured prior to it.
Somehow you confuse, tribulation with wrath, there is no wrath until the vials begin being poured out at Rev 16, however, it is clear to me this could coincide with the first trump, or the seventh seal. The fifth and sixth seals I see as signs of His impending return, Jesus spoke of this time, when He said;    

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
So from the time of the signs to the begining of His wrath, there is a lull in the world setting while God seals the 144,000, and other things happen. the rest of  seals are executed.
The hour of testing that comes upon the whole world, to test them that dwell upon it (Rev 3:10), is not wrath, but deception, brought on by the man of sin, this is the great sign the precedes the revelation of the son of perdition. NASB, uses the word testing in place of temptation, Both signs are very important, since they precede His return.

The key verse you use as a proof text for a Pre Trib rapture, is both of these Rev 3:10, and 1 Th 5:9

1 Th 5
9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Unfortunately one speaks of  testing/trials, while the other speaks of wrath.  There is quite a difference between these words and their meanings, from this confusing interpretation, an huge elaborate doctrine has been built. on which many have hung there hope, instead of doing the work we have been called to do,  they,  just count the days.  This is not biblical...
Wrath is of God, deception is from the evil one, the hour of temptation is thre same as the hour of trials or deception, that will come upon the whole world.
2 Th 2                                                                                                                                                  10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is the great deception.

64  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: March 25, 2004, 12:55:49 AM

Those that are slain are GIVEN robes at that time. John is in heaven with others described as wearing robes sitting on thrones, wearing crowns, watching the handing out of Robes to the slain. I'm not making this stuff up here. This is what John says he saw!

You keep assuming they are sitting on thrones, it only shows, how greatly you rely on this one point, to make your theory work.

The problem as I see it, is that somehow or other, just because John wasn't there to see, when or how these elders received  their robes and crowns, somehow you see  this multitude spoken of at Rev 20:4, as not being part of the church, and arbitrarily exclude those who are church saints, I tell you again, the souls of those at Rev 6:9 were told to
"wait a little season,, until their fellowservants and brethern, should be killed, just as they were, should be fulfilled."

THIS IS WHAT INDELIBLY LINKS THESE OF  REV 6:9 TO ALL OF THE OTHERS...there is no difference between them, they were referred to as saints on the earth at Rev 13:7-10, Rev 14:12.

Petro, there are people in the earth right now, that have yet to receive Christ.

Those who would receive Christ will become brothers and fellowservants will they not?

Ansolutely,.......................That will make them called chosen elect saints, won't it??

If so, are they members of the church, the body of Christ??

Whether that were to happen before or after a rapture event makes no difference. They receive salvation due accepting Christ redemptive work on cross. There is no question that this will take place during that terrible time. The problem here is, you have individuals in heaven already wearing white robes, who all witness the breaking of the 5th seal which reveals martyrs who are then given their white robes. Seperate groups with white robes. One group in heaven, along with John in the spirit, and one group under the alter who were slain for their testimony.

You are confused...

There are the 24 elders, and four beasts, plus.............the souls of those under the alter, (who are told to wait, wait for what?, for the brethern to be killed, just as they were)
and then John sees them all standing at Rev 7:14, and are given "white robes just as the first group was. I can almost visialize them all, as one group, no difference between them at all.

As I explained before the white robes represent the righteousness of the saints (Rev 19:Cool, and whether you accept this or not, it matters little, the robes also are the wedding garments.

If there is any passage of scripture which might support a separate body of believers and those envited to the wedding feast it might be  found at Mat 22:1-14, however I would not to be to quick to run and make assumptions, because the biggest problem we will encounter with that notion is what

Ephesians 2:15 says;,

"to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;" this is clearly speaking of the Body of Christ.

petro said;
do not see, the wrath beginning until Rev 6, the sixth seal begins the heavenly signs that precede His return, which men on the earth see, and are running around looking for the door to hide from the wrath which is coming, whether it is a day or a series of days is not clear to me, but I am inclined to believe it may be days, the day of the Lord begings with a literal day when he returns to the world, but the signs could span days, this is not unbelieveable to me..this could be the case depending where the ring side seat is one holds.

2d tim replies
This is why you are having difficulties explaining the 4 horsemen. The first seal is the beginning of judgment, broken by the only one who was found worthy to pass judgment on man and earth. To fit all the events described throughout Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and so forth into one day is very much a stretch. There are specific wars that take place, famines that spread, pestilences that spread. The judgments gradually get worse and worse. Daniel and Revelation give specific days and months as time frames. Not hours in a single day.

I don't buy that explanation, if your saying that the day of warth begins at the first seal, you have to reconcile, 1 Th 4:15-17,  2 Th 2:3,  to this theory and base it on  scriptures and thus far you and Paul2 have failed to do so.

You haven't even defined who the saints are  and whether they are the church or not, ALL NT saints are the church for sure, as I see it, if you ever get around to considering this, you might want to look at Dan 7:23, this may illuminate this matter, somewhat for you.

petro said'Pre Tribbers, have to remove the church and the Holy Spirit at (the weak sign of) the signing of the peace agreement, to make the theory, work. Unless it is obvious the man of sin, is a great religious leader, who is revealed at this signing, many will miss this sign.

To arbitraily separate, what is obviously the same group of servants and brethern for the sake of trying to prove something is deceptive in my opinion.

reply by 2d tim,
A world leader bent on conquest and speaking loud boastful things against the most high, will hardly be a weak sign. You seem to be stuck on the fact that every mention of a white robe must be the bride.

I only agree with half of your statement as a sign which would reveal the man of sin;

speaking loud boastful things against the most high

Because this is the only unmistakable sign, preceded by a world wide apostasy which would reveal him, according to 2 Th 2:3, and it is clear at 2 Th 2:3, that, the day of Christ, cannot come unless these two signs occur first, in order.  The apsotasy  first followed by the revelation of the son of perdition.

You got it backwards, Paul2, has no apsotasy at all, in his theory.

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (that day is the day mentioned at vs 2), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What about the 24 elders seen wearing white before the first seal is broken? Can't have it both ways

65  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: March 25, 2004, 12:23:07 AM
In my opinin You read to much into this verse.  

Sometimes people want to see, what isn't there, such is the case here.  And, There is nothing said about them eating and drinking either.

There is a key verse which disputes the idea that the throne of Rev 4:4, is NOT the kingdom they are to reign at,  the Apostles were to reign on earth, upon His return,  note:

At the same passage; Jesus at the passover also said to the Apostles;

Lk 22
14  And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15  And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.  
17  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Note verse 18 carefully, it does not disagree with verse 16; it ends by stating "until the kingdom of God shall come."

This is understood to be future tense, and where is it to come??, to the earth, because the kingdom of God, was already in heaven,

Now allow me to point you to a verse which sets the order of this coming kingdom;

1 Cor 15
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25  For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet.
26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Verses 24 and 25, are speaking of God the Father reigning, until He hath put all enemies under His feet.

Under Jesus feet, then Jesus comes and subdues all things, conquering the last enemy death...and HE when He has subdued all things will himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Where does it say they are souls? They have been redeemed by the blood, are sitting on their thrones wearing their crowns as if they have already been to the bema seat of Christ. When did they receive their crowns? They are also dressed in white linen!

I have already pointed out they are not sitting on thrones, Rev 4:4, does not support this at ALL.

I suspect that every believer ever entering heaven will have a white rob. The point is, those on thrones in chapter 4 ARE wearing white robes, are observing, are singing and witness the breaking of the first seal as well as the rest….including the 5th where souls of those slain for the word of God.

You mean those sitting around the throne at Rev 4, ARE wearing white ............

Again….the 24 elders, the 4 beasts, John in the spirit, sees all this from heavens perspective. How do you explain these 24 elders, which appear to be patriarchs (men) in heaven witnessing souls of those slain on earth due to judgment seals being broken by Christ?

I don't understand what your driving at, the Apostles include John, He says nothing about seeing himself herein, he simply wrote what he saw. None of the 24 elders are excitedly asking questions, about these souls,  they know, where these came from, we are the ones speculating trying to figure this out.

All it says at the fifth seal, is "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:", this to me could include all the OT and NT saints at Heb 11, recognizing that there are others not even not listed, therein.  They are refered to as saints..Psa 27:38, 50:5, 116:15.

Psa 132
9  Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
16  I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

David was not of the tribe of Levi, yet, he entered into the Holy Place and took bread for His men,  on a Sabbath while running from King Saul, the only reason why he could have done it, without being judged of God, was because He was a priest, unto God under the order of Melchisedek of whom is Jesus our High Priest.

Somebody from earth is already in heaven at that point.

And besides it stand sot reason that,  if the four and twenty elders were in heaven at the throne (during the entire process), while these souls were being received into heaven coming out of the great tribulation, it would not be a mystery to them, they would all know where they came from, even the angels.  The breaking of the seal appears to be linked with time, the seal in heaven is broken but yet a multitude is seeing by John, this tells me, the breaking of the seal is like viewing one frame in a film, the previous frame where the fourth seal  was broken would be many back, if these were translated into days, it would counted in years, perhaps.  
Did they get by means of a rapture?

Who are talking about??  

The twelve apostles, if they make up 12 of the elders,
"Souls" (Rev 6:9)  #5590  the immortal souls, or the spirit

They were slaying on the earth, their souls ascended into heaven, if the bema seat is experienced upon entering heaven, (of which I am not altogether NOT sold on this theory)  then, this would explain your thought that, what John saw,  was men's souls in glorified bodies, I am not convinced this is what he saw, he doesn't  give any indictation they were not souls, (John himself was in the spirit, they were spirit, and thus the vision) neither does he say, they have glorified bodies  the case for the souls /spirits is much stronger, since we know men who die in Christ do not enter heaven in anything but a soul/spirit (see Eccl 12:7)

We have scripture that describes such an event. Where do you see scripture that says they are souls? Show me a verse.

I already did, Rev 20:4, you cannot deny, ALL these came out of the great tribulation, and these are the one and same of those at Rev 13:7-10, 14:12, 7:14, (included among them are those at Rev 20:4, are those of Rev 6:9) only if one is blind he cannot see that all these are numbered with those of Rev 20:4, and they are ALL eternal souls/spirits, is what John seeing.

66  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: March 24, 2004, 11:57:08 PM
2d Tim posted as reply #314
I have already addressed some of this above. John wrote the whole thing Petro.
He was instructed to write what he had already seen also. I know he had greeting in the letter.

I have no idea where you addressed this, but if you take his salutation these first 8 verses, and include them in his visions while in a trance I can see, how you begin wondering off on the tangent as you do.

Of course once you do that, nothing else, will make sense from the perspective you see things, since you are already off the mark..

So, aside from the defining of the called  elect chosen saints, and the woman of Rev 12, this is probably the biggest hurdle, you have,  for trying to figure this one out.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I am not sure, if you are trying to connect this as your logical explanation for stating the first 7 verses are all a part of John's visions and so on, but it is clear to me, it is not.  

We are speaking specifically at this point, of Rev 1, and the verses that  precede the letter to the seven churches are Johns opening salutation which is not part of any vision, the instructions to write the following down to the 7 churches is given at verse 11.

I know he is not in the spirit yet.

If you are speaking of the first 7 verses I agree with you,  if you are speaking of verse 8 and onward,  then I would  say he is simply was writting the things he had  heard ( words at vs 9) the Lord said, and verse 10, gives the churches the setting of the writing of this letter.

But never the less, he does see the 24 elders and 4 beasts in chapter 4 (future) who are already sitting on thrones wearing crowns. We are told by John, that the chapter 4 event happens hereafter. FUTURE! What I was saying in my previous post, is that before the first horseman rides out, these individuals are seen in heaven and they are heard saying "we are made kings and priest" before the first seal had even been broken.

You don't know that?

After the resurrection of Jesus, all who die in Him, go to be with Him, this explains why they are in heaven clothed in robes, they are the spirits of men who had been declared righteous, proof of this is there white robes, no one enters heaven clothed in ther own rags of righteousness (Phil 3:8-9)

Look this not a mystery, when Stephen was before the sanhedrin, he looked "and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God," (Acts 7:55), this was in heaven according to Stephen, where Jesus is and where all spirits who die in Christ go to be unpon there deaths, (2 Cor 5:6-8, Eccl 12:7)

Zecariah 3:1-4, writes about this very thing concerning Joshua a high priest, who stood before The Angel of the Lord, and satan at His right hand, contending with The Angel of God (Jesus) for Joshua, note what Jesus said to satan;

2  The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3  Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4  And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

No doubt satan claims the bodies of all who die, but Jesus pleads His peoples case at the throne of Grace, the very words Jesus said "The Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee" to satan, makes one understand that God, was present presently.

The same thing occured when satan contended for the body of Moses, Gods annointed,  who had sinned against God in anger.

 Jude says at 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Where did this occur in the presence of God at the Throne of Grace, where Jesus defends His people day and night against the accusations of the accuser "which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:10)

We have an advocate that not only pleads our case when we sin, but also claims us, upon our death at the same throne. This is what our High Priest does presently and will continue doing until satan is cast out of heaven from the presence of God (Heb 8:1-2, Rev 12:1-17)

So I don't see what the problem is, they were there at the throne clothed in white robes, and there were others, this doesn't prove a Pre Trib raptur,e at all.
How does their saying they "are made kings and priests" at chapter 4, tie in with 1:6, it is clear to me, at  verse 6, of Rev 1 that Johns salutation, that he is,  the one making this statement;
6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; .................

As I pointed out, he includes himself, and claims it, herein..??

How do these become priest and kings before the throne of God, if they are not resurrected to the throne of God in order to take their thrones and crowns? All happening before the first seal of judgment is broken!

2d Tim,  Look......If you read Rev 4, there is nothing said about them becoming kings and priests, at all, you have got to quit assuming things, otherwise, we will never get anyplace, all John says is;

Rev 4
2   ...................and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, an d worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Where does it say they sat on thrones?:?

As I pointed out previously Jesus did promise the Apostles that they would reign in His kingdom (perhaps I didn't point this out clear enough for you in my previous post) with Him, and I was not able to tie, something as definitive for the OT patriarchs, but certainly it appears as thou they play a prominent role at the New Jerusalem.

What is clear at Lk 22; Jesus promises those who were at the passover feast and had been with Him, that they would reign in His kingdom.

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.  
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I fail to see that the 24 elders are sitting on thrones, Rev 4:4, does not say this at all; they are NOT sitting on thrones at all. Here is what it says;

4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

They are sitting , this I will agree with you, but it does not say they were thrones, on which they sat.........

At Luke 22:30, it does say they will "sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel", but at Rev 4:4 this is not evident, yet!...................neither is it supported from the language used.

You can see, that from this point on, everything you say, is based on an assumption, they are sitting on thrones.

67  Theology / Apologetics / Re:THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know on: March 24, 2004, 03:16:27 AM
posted by bronzesanke as reply #

 In I Corinthians 15:23, it says, Christ is the "firstfruits" of the Resurrection. The first fruits. Isn't that plain? Then in the text it explains that afterwards, or later, "they that are Christ's at his coming" will follow. It's there in God's Word. What it means is that since His clothes were left behind, ours will be also. Those that belong to Christ at the time of His coming will be bodily translated into heaven just as Jesus was - leaving behind the rags of sin for new robes of righteousness.


This message you have posted, of course is on the rapture, and they way this person sets this up, is by this paraghraph, but it is at the 2d page (the 2d paragraph that the bomb shell  is dropped, on the reader.

"The world will never end."  Isa 54:17, says nothing of the sort; and actually this is not altogether true, this world perish in  fire, when God rolls up as a scroll, it is the New World that will never end.

However, a verse came to mind as I read this message, with reagrd to the 2d paragraph of the 1st page;

Col 2
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Now there at verse 12, is the resurrection, of which we who are saved are partakers of.

And he, who has part in the frist resurrection, he shall not be hurt by the second death.  (Rev 2:11, 20:6)


Whats wrong with it, is that  
68  Theology / Apologetics / Re:LAW KEEPERS on: March 24, 2004, 02:56:13 AM
Quote from Petro

Re:there never was a law that could save
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2004, 08:04:31 PM »    

While we all agree, Christians should obey Gods commandments, they are not obeyed in order to be saved, but as a witness and a testimony to the unsaved and because Christians desire to be obedient to God in living a Holy Life, we all fail everyday.

Is this not what I have been saying?

Petro, you're killing me. lol


I know what you are saying, you are saying a person, must be have faith + good works in order to be saved, this is the joke, that should make you laugh.

And it is false, and man is saved by faith alone, the work that a man doesm is the work God produces in him, to "will and to do" of His good pleasure, this is a work of God, and not man.

And this is the prinicple reason why you and wopik, are on the same page, you do not know what is being said, and this is why you cannopt grasp the teaching of James 2.

Do you believe in the triune Godhead??

How about in the person of the Holy Spirit??

If you do...

Your friend wopik doesn't??

How is it you are in agreement with him, on this other issues.??

It doesn't make sense..

Thanks for your comments anyhow..


69  Theology / Bible Study / Re:Eternal Security Of The Believer on: March 24, 2004, 02:39:49 AM

I have a response to your last post to me, and I have some questions to ask.  But I will not continue this discussion with you if you continue in your sarcasm and accusations.  You have shown me no desire to seek the truth, and you have not displayed any humbleness or love whatsoever.

Now, if you want to continue with this discussion I'd be happy to, if you so desire to in love and not arrogance.  

If I have preceived this wrongly, please let me know.

God bless

everyday newborn,

What is the truth??

It is clear to me you, do not have it...whether it is because of unbelief or lack of faith, I cannot say..........but truth that is revealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead, is not to be rebuffed for the embracing of man made teachings.

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

It is fruitless to discuss such an important subject with someone, who believes he/she has it, I am not seeking truth, I am sharing it with you....

God loves you and desires you know it, and not allow yourself to be led by every whim of mans teachings, this is why  Jesus said;

Take heed that no man deceive you.

Of course, I trust you have a a reliable version of the scriptures which can be used to check, what has been shared with you.

But thanks for your comments, anyhow..



Again, you lack love and humbleness in your response.

Its the same old argument, you desire to argue over, this is the reason you posted what you did, not because you want to learn, you have had these arguments before. So quit acking as thou you are the inujured party.

Truth is in the word of God, and you said yourself it's fruitless to discuss something like this with someone who claims to have it, which then in the very next part of the sentence you said you did and I didn't.  You hypocrite!  I say I'm seeking the truth because I don't claim to know everything and this is a learning process for me, and will be till the day I die.  But you claim to know it all and again exposed your arrogance.

God bless


My answer to you, was based on your answer, that I quoted , and will quoite again;

[quoted] posted by everday newborn,

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

Yopu insinuated here that you were teaching truth; thus my answer to you.

The truth is, if you are saved once, you are saved forever, God doesn't do things half baked.

The idea God saves a person one moment to unsave the next is a doctrine, thats been around since the first century, and is perpetuated by those that want to work their way into Gods presence.

A hypocrite is one who, will say something one moment and then change it the next.

Lose your salvation proponents, say they are saved by grace out of one side of their mouth, while preaching a gospel, that I believed, as their part;  of deal, if this is true; the it stand to reason, that if they produced saving faith, they can lose it, and then repent and regain it again, so the round and around they go, a never ending cycle.

Someone shares the truth with them, and they get upset, to hear,  that God has saved for ever, it is almost as though one needs to re evangelize them all over, in most cases, they are totally unreceptive to the truth.

This is where they get stuck, and never grow out of this, and never have tiome for anything else, because they have to tend to their own selves, for fear of falling out of grace.

As for learning being a lifetime, this is true, but slavation by Grace thru Faith, is foundational to the begining of this learning experience.

We just talked about;

You need to accept Gods Woprd as the truth, and move on, perhaps you might start tonight at these verse;

Heb 6
1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3  And this will we do, if God permit.

I trust this will help you.

70  Theology / Debate / Re:Therefore by the deeds of the law....... on: March 22, 2004, 11:25:37 PM
One must have the Holy Spirit (who was given by Jesus to lead His people to lead them into all truth), in this day and age, there are many false teachers, like michael who do not possess the Spirit, yet teach his churches false teaching as doctrines taught by Gods word.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in his posts.

71  Theology / Apologetics / Re:LAW KEEPERS on: March 22, 2004, 11:17:57 PM

posted by 4JC
Can you please show me how 1 Cor. 12 teaches that obedience produces faith.

Geeesh....you didn't even understand the point I made;  you need to read my posts, to understand the point I made.

In light of the fact that obedience is an fruit of a true faith, and that it is not a determining factor in ones salvation,

If one is not saved, he cannot produce fruit unto God, so It is fruitless to discuss fruit if one is not obedient.  Obedience will produce fruit.  It begins with obedience to the commandment to repent (Acts 17:30), and continuing a life of obedience subjected to the Holy Spirit, will produce spiritual fruit.

Remember the saying "You can have works without faith but you cant have faith without works"? Is this not James whole point. I think you'll see that everything I posted is in line with the Word of God. Remember, I said faith produces obedience, you said obedience produces faith, is that not a works based salvation?

Concerning James 2, you nor wopik, understand that Rom 4, speaks of Justification before God, key verses are;

2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

It is clear, one is not saved by faith and/or works at this passage of scripture.

In James 2, the key verse is;

18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

This is the verse those who believe one must work to be saved, misunderstand, becaus it is natural for the natural man to want to contribute to his own salavtion, and those that think this way, insult the Spirit of Grace.

Maybe I can quote the verse using another version for you, to help you out;

"You say that you have faith and I have merely good actions.  Well, all you can do is to show me a faith without corresponding actions, but I can show you by my faith my actions that I have faith as well." Phillips Modern Version

You can see, this has nothing to do with God, it is one man proving to another man his faith with or without works.

In short, if a man came to you and said, "You say you have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your  works, and I will show you my faith by my works."  then the rest follows.  

Everything that follows this verse must follow in the light of this verse.

Men are saved by faith not faith and works.  This is a false teaching.

The very thing you claim to stand against. My theology is in harmony with eternal security.

Unfortunately your theology and mine agrees (in the sense only, that the saved will produce works), and whats unfortunate, is your theology gets there by believeing salvation is the result of faith + works, mine gets there by saying exactly what the scriptures teach;  that a man is saved by faith alone, without works, but works is the result of that faith.

One Honors God, whiole the otherone dishonors God.

I trust you can see, the truth of this point.

petro said;
"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

4JC replied;
This one is my fault, I should have been more clear. lets follow it through.

My quote of Macarthur
3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism (being against the law) for argueing that a man was justified apart from keeping the law, Paul introduced here a defense he later developed in chapters 6,7. through faith....we establish the law. Salvation by grace through faith does not denigrate the law but underscores its true importance:1) by providing a payment for the penelty of death, which the law requires for failing to keep it;2)by fulfilling the law's original purpose, which is to serve as a tutor to show mankind's utter inability to obey God's righteous demands and to drive people to Christ (Gal. 3:24); and 3) by giving believers the capacity to to obey it (8:3-4). (Macarthur study bible)

Mac Arthurs commentaries are not inspired, those are his own comments and the result of his own studies, which may or may not be accurate.  I never refer to these commentaries, they might help or hinder, depending of the person writing these.

Then you stated in reply;

3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....
From Petro
I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

4JC replies;
Since it was not my words, but Macarthur's, of which I am in agreement with, I said;  (here meaning Macarthur)added for clarity.

Actually, I think the writer (here meaning Macarthur) meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.

Of which you replied;

"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

4 JC repolied;
I hope that clears things up on the matter.

I see, where all this came from, now..

You said

petro said;

You confuse everything here,  the commandments is what we have been discussing, keeping the sabbath is a commandment, we Christians do not observe the sabbath, because we see clearly, the keeping of the sabbath is a shadow of the real sabbath day of rest revealed in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest, He is Lord of the Sabbath, we are his priests and  able ministers of His Gospel in the present tense (not will be, at some future time), we do the Lords work daily, as God enables us, the commandments were clearly delineated by Jesus himself for us, when He said;

4Jc replies
No, you confuse everything here.Your looking at the small picture and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You're only looking at the sabbath as it pertained to the Jews. Are we now allowed to comit adultry because it no longer is punishable by death. There are certain aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews, but the law still stands.Also keep in mind that sometimes in scripture we are speeking about the traditions of man and sometimes the aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews. We see an exellent example of this in (I believe) Mark 2:27-28 where Jesus rebukes them not for their observance of the sabbath but there abuse of it. see Duet. 23:25

God Bless

Hey............you can keep the sabbath if you desire, but if you believe you must keep it to be saved in the end,  I would ask myself if I were you, what happens if I don't, if your answer is, then I may NOT be saved, than that will prove my point, that for you, your theology is  Faith + Works = Salvation.

This is the God dishonoring theology I am pointing out, as False to you and wopik.

Trusting this makes it clearer, to you.


72  Theology / Bible Study / Re:Eternal Security Of The Believer on: March 22, 2004, 10:26:20 PM
Hello Petro.

This is really my last response on this topic.

Petro quote...
 Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The matter is settled, in His words, which say;

I never knew you,

The point is Petro, they believed they were saved just as much as you believe you are saved.

So I have pointed out two deadly scenarios. 1) We can lose our eternal security, and not because Jesus' sacrafice wasn't enough to cover all sin.

2) We can deceive ourselves into believing we are saved, when in fact we are not.

May God bless you Petro.

Get Thee Behind Me.


Thanks for your honesty, it was like pulling a tooth, but I will accept your answer, as a final answer of what you would teach.

This is quite different than your previous answers. Understanding this chnages the perception of what Heb 6 is teaching.

I hope you understand that this is exactly the point I was making, people can be deceived into believing they are saved, when the truth is,  they are not.

One can always understand this, if one examines their doctrines, concerning what they do, with the Words spoken by Jesus.

If they do not believe Jesus, the odds are they are not saved, but deceived.

It is imperitive to examine oneself to ascertain where one stands with God.

It is God the Holy Spirit who works in every child of God to will and to do of His good pleasure.  (Phil2:13)

This is the test; everyone who has an intense desire to hear and do, Gods Word, is a child of God.

Those who do not, hear nor do Gods word, especially the Words Jesus spoke, are none of His, because they have not His Spirit.

It is the goodness of God that leadeth men to repentance.

God Bless,

73  Theology / Debate / Re:The Lord's Supper. on: March 22, 2004, 11:38:54 AM
Can you partake of the Lord's Supper with Catholics?
Yes   2 (22%)
No   7 (77%)
Total Votes: 9  

I wonder who voted yes>>>>>>>>>LOL Grin

Thats one of lifes big mysteries, ain't it? Oh, some mysteries may never be solved. Grin


2 Th 2
7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

While it may be a mystery to some; It is no secret to believers who believe all that is written.

74  Theology / Apologetics / Re:THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know on: March 22, 2004, 11:00:36 AM
The Pre Tribulation rapture hinges on ones interpretation of the Greek Word Apostasia #646, pre tribbers, define as departure/rapture, while the Greek Dictionary of the NT, defines it as: a departure from the truth, apostasy, falling away, forsake.

In addressing the error at 2 Th 2:1-4, Paul, refers to;

2 Tim 2
8 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

This because of false teachers in the church (just as there are today),

"Although the day of the Lord starts with the rapture, the presence of the Day of the Lord is wrath, darkness, trouble, and the tribulation.  (Zeph 1:15) The tribulations described in 2 Thess 1 were erroneously thought to be the tribulations of the day of the Lord. "

Verse 1, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the same day of Christ at verse 2.

That "day" cannot be in progress unless the "falling away" (Greek apostasia) as its first event and the revealing of the man of lawlessness as the next distinct event have come to pass.

While many have fallen away from the faith ever since spostolic times (Heb 3:12, 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Tim 3:1-9, 4:3-4), the particular event Paul refers to here is the final and complete apostasy.  

This will be the deliberate and official denial of the doctrine of Christ Jesus and worldwide suppression of all organized chritianity.  

As long as there are true believers  on earth openly and publicly  worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ together, on the earth, the great apostasia has not begun.

But when great persecution begins, watch therfore, "for your  redemption draweth nigh."  (Jas Lk 21:Cool

Blessings, to all who believe His Word.

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.  Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

These are Jesus's own words.



75  Theology / Debate / Re:Therefore by the deeds of the law....... on: March 21, 2004, 10:07:43 PM
Sad to say, there is no work which can be added to Faith which saves anyone. Inspite of mens desire that there be.

The work, which the scriputers speak of is that of belief in Him, whom He has sent, and it is a work God performes, in all who believe.

If one can understand what Jesus meant in these verses below, one can grasp the truth of the matter.

Jhn 6
28  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30  They said therefore unto him, What sign showest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31  Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34  Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Jhn 6
35  ............. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36  But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.[/color]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41  ................... I am the bread which came down from heaven.

The works tony lists are the result of Faith, which is also, a gift of God...

ALL who possess saving FAITH, will produce fruit (these are the ONLY good works acceptable to God)

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