[Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand]

Stephen when he was being tried before the Sanhedrin, said the following imediately beforte being stoned to death by Paul and His accomplices, for heresy according to them;


Acts 7
56   ....................Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

This is odd, since the sciptures picture Jesus, sitting at the right hand of Glory.

Is it Jesus, standing on the right of God to plead for His own at the throne of Grace.

I suspect that Satan the accuser of the brethern lays claim to the bodies of the saints, who he perceives have committed sin against Gods Word, just as he contended with the Angel of the Lord for the body of Moses (Jude 1:9), and Joshua.(Zec 3:1-2)

Look at this verses carefully;

Zec 3
1  And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

It doesn't state it clearly, but one can see Satan standing before the throne of Grace, it says he is at the right hand of the Angel of the Lord (speaking of Jesus), no doubt Jesus is standing pleading Joshua's case .

Notice what it says about satan at;

Rev 12
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And thats the way it will continue until these scriptures are fulfilled.

It sure appears that believers imediately go to be with Christ this was Paul's hope when He wrote;

2 Cor 5
8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Blessings,

Petro

[Speaking of the Fathers WILL]

Speaking of the Fathers WILL

Jesus said;


Jhn 6
39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Jhn 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


again,

2 Tim 2
19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.



Christians need to do the will of God, this is for sure, and thre Lord knows His own, and will never give them up, because they are given to Him, by the Father, it is Gods will He  (Jesus) lose nothing, this is why the law cannot thwart, Gods Will, and why the Holy Spirit seals all true believers, all others are imposters, even thou they may say they know God  this will evidenced by Jesus's own words on the day of judgment when He will say to many;

I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is imperative we believe every word spoken by Jesus, since this is the will of God, and the only way, we can know His will.


Ex`18
17  And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


God Bless,

Petro

Depart from me

[I never knew you]

You have really left me confused.

You have made the point for OSAS, yet you say inspite of what you have said, you still insist there is no eternal security.

If it is possible to fall away, it is only because,  their past, present and future sins were NOT covered by the Blood of Jesus. Thus those who fall away, were never known by the Lord.  (1 Jhn 2:18-19)

The verses you give do not shore up your argument at all.

The will of God, is that none should perish, this is why He commands all men everywhere to repent, those that do not, will never and can never be saved, those that do have done the will of the Father.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The matter is settled, in His words, which say;


I never knew you, He didn't say;


I use to know you, but now I don't

Never KNEW, means exactly that, they were not KNOWN  by Jesus before, and never will be...

Thanks for your comments anyhow.


Blessings,

Petro

Petro, sorry so long getting back to this.  Been very busy as of late.   Let me try to quickly hit on a few points in this one post.   I promise I will try to catch up with some of the other points when time permits.

Here it is not so clear in the text.  First off, the rider in 6:2 is wearing ONE crown that is given to him.  Note that the man of sin will declare himself God.   He is also seen overpowering the Saints later on.  We know he will be powerful, as people will say, "who can make war with the beast".  I believe this rider is the Antichrist not Christ.  In 19:12 the rider is wearing MANY crowns.  The rider in 6 only has one.  Grace and Peace!

By the way, allow me to add a piece of the puzzle for the the many crowns issue.

Rev 19:12 is most definitely speaking of Jesus, the many crowns are the result of the crowns being cast at His feet by the twenty four elders.  Rev 4:4-10.

Note: 2 Tim 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 2:10, Rev 3:11,Rev 14:14,

But notice Rev 1:5

5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Who is John refering to herein ??

He is refering to the faithfull, Jesus was and is nothing to the secular kings of this earth, and won't be until He returns to rule over the nations.


So there is your reason for the "many crowns", these are  clearly Pre Millenial verses at Rev 20:4-6.


Blessings,

Petro

["it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."]

   

(I can almost here it already, the next argument will be whether their robes are linen, cotton some other synthetic fabric.)
 
"it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."  Rev 6:11

Note that those who are to be killed, as they [were],  are their fellowservants and brethren,

there is not two groups here, either..

I think you fellows, are letting your imaginations get the best of you....herein.

I probably did misunderstand you on your other points....I seem to be prone to that    My appologies.

 

No apologies required..I may not have been clear on these, myself.

I stated it appears to be this way, in answer to youre statement.  The seals and the trumpets, and other dynamics are occuring, which could be one event, yet, the way they are written, we do not know whether there is times span between them, I am raising questions,  as I see it,

Hmmm.  I do believe the seals, the bowls and the trumpets run sequentially, and not all at once.

This is not clear to me.

 One verse that indicates these happen in sequence is Rev 8:1-7.  The seventh seal actully initiates the sounding of the trumpets.

I do see this, I think I pointed this out, in one of my previous posts.

  I know some might say that means nothing, but reading it plainly, IMO they follow a sequence.   Also considering prophecies in Daniel, Ezekiel etc.  the battle of Gog and Magog, the 200 million man army that attacks, the number of days mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation for various periods of time, I don't believe its a stretch to say they seals, trumpets and bowls have a sequential order and some even appear to bring about the next.

I disagree.

I do not see, the wrath beginning until  Rev 6, the sixth seal begins the heavenly signs that precede His return, which men on the earth see, and are running around looking for the door to hide from the wrath which is coming, whether it is a day or a series of days is not clear to me, but I am inclined to believe it may be days, the day of the Lord begings with  a literal day when he returns to the world, but the signs could span days, this is not unbelieveable to me..this could be the case depending where the ring side seat is one holds.

As I have stated, so I still state, Jesus promised to keep the church from the wrath of God to come, as I undersdtand (the signs announce His return) this wrath begings at His return, he never promised to take the church out of the world; in fact when He prayed to the Father, He clearly asked the Father not that He should take them out of the World, speaking of the chuch;

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

A pre Trib or Mid Trib rapture does take the church out of the world, before His second coming.



As I see it.

I hear you Petro.   We have also spoken about this verse before.   The only answer I can offer here is that God would have taken these given to Christ at that time out of the world because of their faith in Christ, and because they were not of this world...just as we are.  Just as Enoch was. The only difference is, that those prayed for were to continue the work that Jesus was leaving behind.  (Just as he was sent into the world, so he would send them into the world.)  We the Church carry on the work that Jesus started.  Spreading his truth, mercy and Love to the lost.   This could not be done if they were removed.  Does that mean we will never be taken out of the earth, ever?   We know from other scripture that we certainly will be caught up and removed from the earth at some point.  The question is when.  So what was the purpose of Jesus' prayer in John 17?  Not to ever remove believers from planet earth?  I don't think so.   It was to finish the work that Jesus started...preaching the gospel to all nations to the ends of the earth.   So again we arrive at the 49 thousand dollar question.  When will we be changed, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

Well, all of those who are assembled at the throne in Rev 7:9-14, and Rev 20:4, are ALL products of the great tribulation, who preached the same word that began with Jesus, this is clear from verses;

Rev 7:14  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Rev 20:4  ............... the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. Just because Rev 6:9-11, doesn't say they were beheaded, it is clear they died for their testimony and the word of God. The clincher for me is that they all indentified as dressed with white robes at Rev 19:8.  This includes all these (Rev 7:14,13:10-15, 20:4...

Is the church clothed in fine white linen, note; the church is referred to as her at verse 8,  below;

Rev 19
7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Clothed in white linen??  They must be robes??  And white at that..........! White linen Robes......

You see, the church here any place??

Paul2 makes the argument, the armies represent different classes of  individuals, some are the church while others are dispensational servants, and not members of the church

Clearly these verses should not be twisted to exclude, from this discussion, these of  Rev 19, being members of the church, refering to them of Rev 7:14.

Know lets look, at;

John 17
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.[/color.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This would cover everyone till the church is removed from the earth at the end of the age. Whenever that is.

Pre Tribbers, have to remove the church and the Holy Spirit at (the weak sign of) the signing of the peace agreement, to make the theory,  work.  Unless it is obvious the man of sin, is a great religious leader, who is revealed at this signing, many will miss this sign.

To arbitraily separate, what is obviously the same group of servants and brethern for the sake of trying to prove something is deceptive in my opinion.

I still believe that day will happen before the great tribulation, mainly because in my mind, it fits the sequence of events best that are layed out in scripture.   No, there not one particular verse that says..."the church is raptured before the trib", but looking at all the events described, the details of various verses, there are just too many unanswered questions with the church present during last 7 years.   I wont say all the questions are not answered with it absent, but it makes better sense with most scripture in a pre-trib scenario than any other I have considered.

Grace and Peace!

So, there you go, It appears it happens in everymans mind according to how he interprets scripture.

One has to allegorize what is not written, and this produces diferent results, of course I include myself, in this, since I am reading the same verses and I have an imagination also..

I say if one can't explain something,using the scriptures only, he ought not to even bring it up, it just muddy's the water, and besides how can one answer someone who says, I just have a feeling, I think or an opinion, maybe it is like this..................I say shore up the positions with Gods Word



Blessings,

Petro.

[could be]

Hey don't feel as thought you need to answer every question I raise, if somebody does or doesn't, it won't end the world, My aim to get people to read the bible, and make an effort to get intot he Word, rather than depending of what others believe and just simply agreeing with them, what is important is to get to know the word of God.

Amen!   I am in total agreement with you here brother.

Well, your guess is just as viable as any other. If it is as you say, the first seal would be the mid-tribulation according to your take, on this.

Either way, the souls of those slain for the word of God at Rev 6:9-11, cannot be ruled out as being those who have been martyred for the faith of Jesus, or (dead church members).

To simply say, these are not does not explain the reason why they are omitted, and this seems to be what is being said.

Actually, my take is that the breaking of the first seal begins Daniels 70th week, which to appears to be the Antichrist coming onto the scene conquering world power and signing his pact with Israel kicking off the first 3 1/2 years.

Please ...................Give me the exact verse?? ... you rely on which causes you to believe this.

What signs do you rely on to identify the sign of the man of sin??

 I hope it isn't his signature on some document.  How about  the apostasy??

Do you see a "falling away" from the truth or is it the "departure" rapture??

 

I think we are in agreement about Rev 6:9-11 with the exception of them being the church.  There is no question they are beheaded for their faith in Christ, but they do not account for the elders who have already been seen in heaven prior to this.

The twenty four elder could be very well be the twelve OT Patriarchs and the twelve Apostles (Lk 22:30, Rev 21:11-14) who the 12 Patriarchs are represented by is up for grabs  (their names are symbolized by twelve stones on the breastplate Ephod] [, worn by the Hight Priest ] in the Holy place at the tabernacle of Moses/David at Ex 28:21, 39:14-15, their names are also given to the 12 gates of the the city NEW Jeruselam Rev 22:12] conisder (Isa 16:5, Amos 9:11); and the 12 Apostles had been promised to sit on thrones by Jesus to judge Israel in His kingdom.

Jesus is returning to build once again the fallen tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16, Amos 9:11)



All Rev 6:9 says is;   "when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,"...................

It seems to me, one needs to speculate, about things in order to try an build an explanation, this is what bothers me, when men start speculating and inserting answers to their own questions, building their own case up to take, it in the direction they desire it to go.  

Next thing you know men start teaching dinspired octrines which are founded on these speculative answers .

 Rev 5:1 indicates that there are men already in heaven.  Rev 5:8-9 indicates that both the elders and the 4 beasts have been redeemed by the blood out of every nation, and have ALREADY been made kings and priests (Rev 1:6 also speaking to the 7 churches) and SHALL (future tense) reign on earth.   These are seen in heaven before the first seal is even broken.   I tend to agree with both Bep and Paul, that this the Church.

Wait a second...........hold everything...

I see, Rev 5:9-10, where the elders and beast are singing this song, but what makes you think they were made kings and priests in heaven??  after there deaths, John wrote this he was still living on the earth, and he uses the same language in the past tense.

Where do you see the word "shall" at verse 6,.

PLEASE......Look at the first six verses (especially Rev 1:5-7) closer, this is the opening PORTION OF THIS  letter written to  seven literal churches existing on the earth at the time this was written, the statement John makes is in the past tense "made us" at this verse ; he includes himself as a king and priest.................what about this?? look......

5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6  And [hath]made uss kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)


John is not in a trance, and he is not seeing any visions, as yet, when he wrote this,.  (I think you assume he is.......) as a matter of fact, he doesn't begin writing about"what he saw" until verse 8, which he reiterates at verse 10, after explaining the setting of the vision, in the opening verses.  

So it is clear it wasn't until he heard the voice of the Lord to write these things at verse 11, that John begins writing.

Now look at the verse, again;

5  and from Jesus Christ the witness faithfull the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. T him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his blood,
6  and made us kings and priests to God and Father his.....
7  Behold He comes with the clouds , and shall see Him every eye, and they which Him pierced and shall wail on account of Him, all the tribes of the earth. Yea, Amen.

Greek-English Interlinear Version

I think it is erroneous to say, that John is herein seeing these things, as he is writing these first seven verses,  there is no question he saw them, but I believe he wrote this as the opening statement to this letter, after he wrote what he saw on the Lords Day while on the isle that was called Patmos, and the strongest point for this argument is the  word us at verse 6,

He includes himself as  being a king and a  priest, in his present state.

We have a high priest, who ministers at the heavenly alter not made with human hands, we are told at Heb  8:1-2.

And we are able minsters of the Gospel of God, Paul even says at 1 Cor 4:8, the Corithians had reigned as kings without us...... while this is not positive proof, the Lord consider His saints, kings and priets, the Apostle, certainly states it clear enought at Rev 1:6, becuase he sure claims it for himself at verse 5.


11   What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Had it not been for the Lords words at verse 11, we may never have had this book to read.


 

Clearly these are men,

They are the souls of men that were slain..who the beasts are is not clear to me, they appear to be men, maybe not.

and clearly they withness the breaking of the fifth seal when the marters are seen u"[/b]nder the alter.   I cannot explain how there are two groups of believers, but there certainly appears to be going by how it is written.   The current church being raptured prior to those coming to faith during the tribulation and being overcome agrees with these however.

If you are still speaking of Rev 6:9-11, you "cannot explain how there are two groups of believers", because, they are not, what indelibly links them together with  those of Rev 13:7-10, 14:12 and  20:4, is  the "white linen robes" which are given to them, and the elders words; these all came out of the great tribulation, according to Rev 7:14 and Rev 20:4, they all have white linen robes.  

cont'd..........

[interpretation]

"The fatal mistake the translators made was in failing to take into consideration the definite article before the word apostasia which appears in the Greek text of Eberhard Nestle, in that of his son, Erwin Nestle, and in that of Westcott and Hort. A. T. Robertson in his monumental work, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, asserts that the translators of the A. V., under the influence of the Vulgate, dealt with the Greek article in a loose and inaccurate way (p. 756).

The definite aricle is not where the problem lies, it is in mans interpretation of  the very word apopstasia.

If Westcott and Hort agree with anything, I would be very careful to put any wait on what is said, without double checking it, with other sources.

The Pre Tribbers actually use this word apostasia to mean  rapture, so instead of apostasy at 2 Th 2:3, they have rapture occuring before the man of sin is revealed, speculating that the sign which reveals him, is his signing of some document with Israel.

My question is what about the apostasy??

When does that happen, clearly this is a sign of Jesus imminent return, I guess there is no apostasy first{/b] (falling away).

It doesn't make any sense.........much confusion in this camp.

Petro

Petro

[many offences]

Above all else, I gave you a verse that clearly, states that Bornjh Again  Christians will be justified in the end, in spite of many offences(transgressions against the law), you can accept this or not, it won't change the truth of this verse one bit.

You know it is possible for people to believe they are a christian, when in fact they are not, I have to say, that all who deny Jesus spoken words for doctrines concocted by men, may be decieving themselves, why??

Because every spoken word by Jesus, are words the Father put in His mouth and He will require it, from every person that heard these words, in that day, this is a fact, because He (Jesus) is that prophet, of Ex 18:15-19.

Above all else, we know Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive and so do his ministers, and they do decieve many.


Petro

[Faith to believe is Jesus in given to us, and also to suffer for His sake.]

Petro, Up until you quoted me the second time in your last post, I agree with everything you said and the scripture you gave. I am very familiar with 1 cor. 12, I wish more people today would understand it. I'm not sure how it applies to the debate at hand, but it is nontheless truth.

You are not sure?

It is because you just use certain isolated verses, to try and prove your viewpoint, no offense but, clearly you need to consider all verse that shed light on the matter, this passage answers the obvious question which would be asked by the use of Phil 1:29, where we are told Faith to believe is Jesus in given to us, and also to suffer for His sake.

If were persecuted for our faith this would not be an issue.  


 

I know it is difficult to talk about the law and not discuss justification, but it seems, to me, very difficult to seperate law and justification in the minds of the people I'm talking too. In other words, We end up debateing something we are in agreement in.

Well, you and wopik, brought it up, I am sharing what Gods Word clearly teaches, but you all insist, one must keep the commandments to continue being saved, so that in effect you turn salvation from Grace through Faith, to Faioth and keeping the law (commandments), because in extending your theory, you would claim, if Christians do not keep the commandments, they will lose their salvation; while we state plainly that not keeping the commandments Jesus gave His people, this is proof one may not be saved at all, although one says he is, good works are not evidence of salvation, obeying Gods Word is, He commands all men everywhere to Repent, (Acts 17:30) and to believe in Him whom He has sent(Ex 18:15-19).

Jesus, said If you love me keep my commandments, Christians today ignore His commandments, yet desire to keep the 10 commandments, yet, they call themselves Chritians and reject Jesus own words, especially when contending on this subject,

the doctrine of eternal security is founded on Jesus own words, yet those who say they are believers reject His own words.  One cannot take one passage of scripture and create
a whole teaching contrary to the Lords own promises, it is better to say, I don't understand why he said this, rather then go down the road of deception.

Quote:
3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....
 

I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

Actually, I think the writer meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.

"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

So, what did you mean??

Quote:
Yes, also see Matthew 9:13. In a nutshell, it was a rebuke. Jesus cites Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam.15:22:Mic.6:6-8).
Which emphasizes absolute priority of the laws moral standards over the ceremonial requirments.

God bless  
 

I gave Matt. 9:13 because it was a better example. I believe it explains it better, that is, to "know what this means".

Matt. 12 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

The pharisees cared mostly about the outer man, the cerimonies and so on. But is this more important than to Love our nieghbor as ourself? When the two clashed the moral Law overrided the cerimonial requirements of the law of that time.

God bless

You confuse everything here,  the commandments is what we have been discussing, keeping the sabbath is a commandment, we Christians do not observe the sabbath, because we see clearly, the keeping of the sabbath is a shadow of the real sabbath day of rest revealed in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest, He is Lord of the Sabbath, we are his priests and  able ministers of His Gospel in the present tense (not will be, at some future time), we do the Lords work daily, as God enables us, the commandments were clearly delineated by Jesus himself for us, when He said;

Mat 22
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Plus He gave other commandments, do you know what these are??

Anyhow, to answer your question;

I know it is difficult to talk about the law and not discuss justification, but it seems, to me, very difficult to seperate law and justification in the minds of the people I'm talking too.

Why do you bring up the law, when talking about justification??

It is enough that Gods Word says;

Rom4
13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Gal 2
16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This should end all arguments.

Why do you insist keeping the commandments, will somehow justify Christians before God at the end??

[Since all, Christians are justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ, and His righteousness is imputed to us.]  

It is because you and those that subscribe to this doctrine, do not understand Rom 4, and James 2.

I can only surmise,  ignorance is the cause,  since both passages are clear, no one is justified by keeping the law/commandments, or working some good work, period.......


But anyhow, thank you for your contribution, I trust this will encourage us, to seek the truth in the Word of God without adding our own thoughts or words to HIS.


Blessings,

Petro

[And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.]

He was recognized by these two at Lk 15, utimately, when their eyes were opened;

30  And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31  And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


No doubt they saw His nail pireced hands when He hand them bread after breaking it.



Petro

[If they shall fall away]

Hi Petro.

We can argue against each other's views on this topic but it isn't going to do anyone any good. I have stated the reasons for my belief on the subject, as have you.

I will however, point out one more verse which AJ posted, and ask you to think about it.

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

This verse makes it clear that those who were once "enlightened" can "fall away" and in fact, once this occurs they are doomed to hell, because it is "impossible to renew them again unto repentance."

 Petro, it is impossible to argue against such a clear cut verse such as this that is very specific about those who have fallen away, and lost their eternal salvation.

Take care my brother.

bronzesnake,

This verse is the most abused, by the lose your slavation camp, brother, and primarily because it is  interpreted to mean one can lose slavation, when in fact the words "it is impossible" sets the interpretation of this verse as a hypothetical statement in stone.

One cannot, take it, and make it state, what it does not stae at all;  Note the Interlinear version;

Heb 6
4  For [it is] impossible for those once enlightened,
6  and [who] fell away, to renew them again unto repentance;

What these verses clearly state, is this;

It is impossible for anyone who is saved, and falls away,........ to  be renewed again to repentance.

Even the heretic J.B. Phillips gets it right, in his vernacular version;

6  "When you find men who have been enlightened, who received the Holy Spirit
5  who have known the wholesome nourishment of the Word of God and touched the spiritual resources of the eternal world
6  and who then fall away, it proves impossible to make them repent as they did at first.  For they are recrucifying the Son of God in their own souls, and by their conduct exposing him to shame and contempt.

If this were "possible", for those who are saved to "fall away" (by sinning, And What is Sin??  see 1 John 3:4), it would be impossible to bring them back to repentance, this is clearly the teaching of these verses.

But this is not what this camp teaches, they teach that a man can fall away and after losing his free-giftbe brought back to repentance, and once again enjoy fellowship with God, because he can be restored, back to sonship.

If this is true, I ask you, whose blood is sacrificed at that alter
for the sin, which caused this sinners restoration??

The very fact you state, that Jesus's blood is enough to pay for all sin, past, present and future, but that a man can be saved, sin and become unsaved, and later repent and be re-saved, tells me you have not given this verse much thought at all.

Its nothing but the blood of Jesus.

He died once and for all, covered all the sins of those who are saved, and inspite of many offenses, the ones who are called chosen, elect saints will be justified, by His Blood and Resurrection.

The "lose slavation" doctrine on the surface appears to be and innocent misunderstanding of Gods Word, it actuality it is a decptive doctrine, that brings men into bondage of works, by which they expect to be made righteous because they keep some kind of Law, yet is clear Paul counted all this as dung, notice what he says about it;

Phiul 3
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

You can insert the word "commandment/s" for the word "law" at verse 9, and you have the insidious teaching which glorifies men and not God.

Don't feel as thou you must believe what I have shared with you, call me a liare if you will, but consider what the Word clearly says at these verses that is all, I simply ask you, to think about it.


God Bless,

Petro

[unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him,]

author 4JC

Hey Petro,

Although a lack of obediedce may prevent a growth in faith (if that's what you mean, I agree), obedience does not produce faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

Phil 1
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Both believing in Him and suffering with Him, is by Faith, since this is speaking of His death and resurrection, the scriptures assure us that is we have died and been buried with Christ and have also been resurrected with Him.


Co 2
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Know I know you haven't suffred much fort Him, just as I haven't, but it made clear we have died and been resurrected, even while others suffer for their Faith in Him, and we who are members of the same body suffer with them, sometime I wonder if we are even aware of what is happening to other members of the body of Jesus.

Note:

1 Cor 12
14  For the body is not one member, but many.
15  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19  And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

You may reject this, I don't..

My Faith in Christ is not something I conjured up, praise the Lord he has equipped me, with everything I need to live a life pleasing to Him, even my Faith in Christis the result of His Grace, since He assures me He has given me to Jesus, who will raise me up at the last day, that my hope might be in Him, and not in myself.....nor anything I do.

3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....

I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

LOL, come on, that's not what I said.

So, what did you mean??



Petro

You might also, consider these verses, Christians ought not to handle gods word deceitfully.

1 Cor 2
2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The Adventist, Jehovah Witness doctrines you embrace with biblicxal teachings, expose your spiritual need.

You need to put away those thoughts and, believe the written word of God only, you need to ask Gods forgiveness and seek His mercy and grace, that you too, might receive His Spirit and understand these things, you do not understand.

So long as you deny the truth, you will not see, nor undertsand Gods Word, at all.

Don't be decived, it is clear to many you do not have a grasp of scriptural teaching.

Still praying for you....




Petro

[not known to the groom]

bronzesanke,

One could hardly use the parable of the ten virgins to teach, the doctrine of "lose your salvation" at Mat 25, it is clear the five unwise virigns were not known to the groom

There are many today, that assume that because they know something of God, or Jesus, they are known by God or Jesus, this is flooshness, they may believe they are a part of the the church, but unfortunately this is only a presumption on their part. And ususally these believe this, because they believe they can do something to be a part of the Bride of Christ, it is "faith and their works" which ultimately will save them.

Oh yes, they understand that Jesus died for their sins and they claim to believe all the doctrines in the right order, but when it gets right down to it, its their contribution of their "little mite" of works,  that will make it come to pass.

The parable of the talents, is not as clear cut as the one preceding it, but it can hardly be used to prove "salvation the free gift"  is lost because of what men do after they are saved, don't get me wrong, I believe Christians will produce fruit and will perform work for the Lord, but it is not to what caps or secures "eternal salvation" it is the result of loving to serve God, because of what He has done for His servants.

For those who do not believe Faith is given by God, it is natural to except, that it is there faith which produced their salvation, and very naturally leads to a rationalizing of this doctrine which believes a man can lose the "free gift" of salvation.

If a christian can lose salvation, how is it, that this is possible, is it because a christian can jump out of Gods hand (as some woman stated once), Jesus said;

Jhn 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

It is clear if no man can pluck Christians out of the Father's hand, this would include the person themselves

No, I do not believe in this doctrine that teaches man is ultimately saved, because He did some work which clinched the "Free Gift" of God,

...........it is clear to me God equips every person whom He calls, even giving them the necessary FAITH to believe in Jesus;

Having Pre destinated them unto adoption, and to be conformed into the image of His dear Son, by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, and it is all based on Jesus's finished works at the cross, and His Faith which is imputed to them that believe.

[bNot our Faith but, the Faith of Jesus.

The lose your faith doctrine appears to be a different gospel
in the end based on mans faith and his works.

Notice this verses;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:22


16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be
Gal 2:16

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:22

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12


Although Rev 14:12 is a dispensational verse  but, I believe Christians do keep Gods commandments, not perfectly, in the letter, but in the spirit, for the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life, and its thru many offenses (Rom 5:16) men are justified, because where ever sin abounded,  grace did much more abound:(Rom 5:20)


It is all only by the power of Gods Holy Spirit in us,  that any  can be in the FAITH of Jesus Christ.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1-2)


Blessings,

Petro

[appears to be the same event (Rev6:2), This is only one verse, and it is not clear one way or the other, to me, it simply appears to be the same white horse, whith its rider.All John says about this is he was in the Spirit on the Lords day , when he saw this vision in heaven.My point at Rev 6, is directed more so, to those who are referred to as the "souls of them, that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"]

Petro, sorry so long getting back to this.  Been very busy as of late.   Let me try to quickly hit on a few points in this one post.   I promise I will try to catch up with some of the other points when time permits.

2d Tim,

Hey don't feel as thought you need to answer every question I raise, if somebody does or doesn't, it won't end the world, My aim to get people to read the bible, and make an effort to get intot he Word, rather than depending of what others believe and just simply agreeing with them, what is important is to get to know the word of God.

Buit actually, You nned to read what I was answering to;

OK,  Rev 19:11-13 and Rev 6:2 appears to be the same event to me, also;

Note what IO was answering to;

posted by 2dTim as reply #283

When you compare your passage with the following, it becomes apparent that they are the same event.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Sounding very much like what is described in Matthew about the birds gathering to eat the flesh of the dead.

All I said, is I agreed (with you) that it appears to be the same event (Rev6:2), This is only one verse, and it is not clear one way or the other, to me, it simply appears to be the same white horse, whith its rider.

All John says about this is he was in the Spirit on the Lords day , when he saw this vision in heaven.

My point at Rev 6, is directed more so, to those who are referred to as the "souls of them, that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

I have heard others say they believe this also, but for me it does not make sense to say they are the same.

COMPARE:
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

No mistake who this passage speaks of.

Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Here it is not so clear in the text.  First off, the rider in 6:2 is wearing ONE crown that is given to him.  Note that the man of sin will declare himself God.   He is also seen overpowering the Saints later on.  We know he will be powerful, as people will say, "who can make war with the beast".  I believe this rider is the Antichrist not Christ.  In 19:12 the rider is wearing MANY crowns.  The rider in 6 only has one.   I could see how one would equate that to christ, but the same could be said of the Beast or Antichrist during this time.   Daniel 9 indicates that the antichrist weapon of choice will start as peace.  I believe this ties into the discription of Rev 6:2, the rider carrying a bow, no mention of arrows.   If the rider in chapter 6 is Christ, the 3 riders that follow seem to mess up any conquering done by the first, if it were speaking of Christ.   However, if the first rider is the Antichrist, the other 3 riders following in sequence make much better sense as to what sort of conquering he is doing.   For me, the first rider as Christ does not fit the events described in Chapter 19.   It certainly does not fit a pre-wrath view.

Well, your guess is just as viable as any other. If it is as you say, the first seal would be the mid-tribulation according to your take, on this.

Either way, the souls of those slain for the word of God at Rev 6:9-11, cannot be rulled out as being those who have been martyred for the faith of Jesus, or (dead church members).

To simply say, these are not does not explain the reason why they are omitted, and this seems to be what is being said.

Since John is seeing this in a vision, it is not determined, whether he conisders these to include himself.

And the armies of Rev 19:14, appear to be made up of the souls of those mentioned in  Rev 6:11,

If I follow you here, you have Christ returning in chapter 6 and 19 as the same event, (litteral second coming) the armies are the marters which are killed at the fifth seal, yet they are seen in your interpretation appearing with Christ at the first seal and have yet to be martered?   This does not make any sense to me what so ever.

No, I  never said this at all, I have maintained those of the fifth seal, at Rev 6:9-11, ulmately the same ones of Rev 20:4, and they,  end up, Reigning and rulling with Christ, this is clear to me.

When the seals are opened in relation to other things, it is not totally clear to me.


I stated it appears to be this way, in answer to youre statement.  The seals and the trumpets, and other dynamics are occuring, which could be one event, yet, the way they are written, we do not know whether there is times span between them, I am raising questions,  as I see it,

and the problems caused by arbitrarily excluding some and including some, claiming some are a part of the church while other are not.

I am not setting the order of how these things are occuring, at all.

As I have stated, so I still state, Jesus promised to keep the church from the wrath of God to come, as I undersdtand this wrath begings at His return, he never promised to take the church out of the world; in fact when He prayed to the Father, He clearly asked the Father not that He should take them out of the World, speaking of the chuch;

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

A pre Trib or Mid Trib rapture does take the church out of the world, before His second coming.
 


As I see it.

Petro