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46  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: April 07, 2004, 07:27:01 PM
Oklahoma Howdy to Petro,

Brother, nobody here claimed to be an expert on this subject. I disagree with you, but I'm not an expert either. Most of the self-proclaimed experts and recognized experts fall into two camps:  (1) Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, (2) Mid-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

However, the only REAL expert on this issue is the Holy Trinity. We can simply agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,


You are correct, "self pro-claimed experts are found in both of these camps, I have always wondered why they consider themselves "experts", when they are neither, most all of these ignore the meaning of words also, that is why they rest on error.

the only REAL expert on this issue is the Holy Trinity.

As I stated previously I agree with you here.

If you are serious about the studying you have been doing on this matter, I trust you have considered the words I have given you all.


47  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: April 07, 2004, 07:06:19 PM

You have no basis for challenging anything, you haven't even cleared up your misunderstandings of the scriptures you have butchered to get where you got.!

I have tried to get you to explain these inconsistencies from the begining, and you have failed miserably, these questions will not die by your ignoring them.

Just because you have a theory, doesn't make it true, even thou you appear to be able to expalin it by ignoring tough questions.

Your theory, has died with your misintrepretation of the apostasia  the  "falling away" at 2 Th 2:3, so you have nothing beyond that point, except pure speculation.

So what else can I say;  either "falling away" means apostasy, or rature, which is it??

You do greatly error not knowning the scriptures....................the rest is founded on this error.....

If you ever get around to explaining this modern interpretation of the word apostasia, the word apantesis awaits your explanantion, both of these words by themselves discredit your understanding of timing and occurance of the rapture, ............that is a fact..

You need to face it.  or lose credibility....As I said before, the Pre Tribulation Rapture is of recent origins, begining with a prophecy of Margaret Mc Donald in and around 1830, there is no evidence of it, being taught in the church prior to that time.

You have to face the music sooner or later on this crucial fact.

My questions to you, are designed to get you to critically examine your theory with scripture, or think things through, instead of running around half cocked on this subject.

These Two key words, and there understanding must be considered and reconciled with the Pre Trib teaching, understand these, and, there is no Pre Trib rapture, onyl by ignoring these definitions, can one continue teaching such a spurious doctrine.

There is a third word, one should familiarize themselves with also, and that is the word;  parousia (at his coming) 1 Cor 15;23.

You really should consider these things.

Why allow yourself be labeled, a false prophet, because of your refusal to work out the correct interpretative teachings of scripture...??

48  Theology / Apologetics / Re:John 3 Born Again and Water on: April 05, 2004, 05:06:18 AM
I don't think there is a separation of two births being discussed here

It is not two births, it is simply one birth.  And it is a Spiritual birth.

49  Theology / Apologetics / Re:LAW KEEPERS on: April 05, 2004, 05:01:36 AM
I know that it is faith that will get me saved and not what I do, but I follow the law (e.g. try not to do any work on Saturdays if I can avoid it) in order to make the Lord Jesus Christ happy:

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

- John 14:15

I can accept this, since that is the goal,  to live a life pleasing to God.

When people write vague things, I never give occasion to the flesh, let everyman be a liar, but let God be true.

I say make them prove it.

50  Theology / Apologetics / Re:LAW KEEPERS on: April 05, 2004, 04:57:06 AM
I know what you are saying, you are saying a person, must be have faith + good works in order to be saved, this is the joke, that should make you laugh.

Petro, in all fairness, I went out of my way to make sure that that is not what people would think I said. If you can please show me where you think I said that faith + good works save then I will edit my post to clarify it. since that is not what I believe.

Here is what I believe.

Works don't save! Never have, never will!

Works are an evidence, not a determing factor.

We know a tree by it's fruit.

So when I quote scripture that speaks of works, I"m not saying one can lose or gain salvation by works, I'm simply saying that if you claim to be saved and the evidence shows otherwise, it's time to be concerned. This is how Jesus can say" If you love Me, keep my commandments." He is saying that this will be an evidence of a true salvation. He is not saying we gain or lose salvation by keeping the commandments.


I have been busy, and hadn't seeing this post for sometime..

So, to answer you; I say;

Yes, well Jesus knows what He is talking about....no question about it..

Let me ask you two questions;

1.    What commandments are we to keep??

2.     What does this following passage teach?

2 Cor 3
1  Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2  Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
4  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

According to this passage of scripture what is it that was done away with??


the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

This had to do with the OLD COVENANT.

What does this mean, to you??

7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

You said;  [I quote]
And by works I'm also speaking in terms of obedience. Do we sin? Sure we do. but we strive not to. We strive to be Christ like, even though we know we will fall short. We do this because we love Him, and choose to be obedient. Even when we are not feeling the Holy Ghost goose bumps we still choose to be obedient out of duty. This is what love is. Hasn't there ever been a time when you wanted to sleep in and not go to church? Why do you get up and go anyways? Duty, we do it because that's what love does. This is what James was speaking of. "show me your faith without works". Which is not in cotrast to Paul.[end of quote]

Did you have "free will" before you were saved??

There is a difference between, "duty" and "free will"

The jews who felt that since they were now justified by faith, they no longer needed to observe the law (Gods Law). This is a classic form of people who think they have a license to sin. James took care of that.
On the other side we have the Jews who felt justified by obeying the law. Paul took care of that. Paul and James were not contradicting eachother, but were standing back to back defending two different attacks on there faith.

There is no evidence for what you have stated, both are defending against the same error which continues in the church to this day, one of Faith plus works equals salvation.

You need to read Acts 15, the result of the4 First Council at Jerusalem, there is no mention of obedience to any lcommandments of law there, at all, the appeal to obey my commandments comes from Jesus Himself, if you love me....He says.

Must you keep the Sabbath today??

If you take this post to mean something other than what was clearly said. Than there's nothing I can do about it. I've been as clear as I know how to be. If it wasn't you Petro, I'd assume someone was trolling.

Answer me the questions...............



God bless

51  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps on: April 05, 2004, 03:34:41 AM

I would be careful, to believe anything other than what the scriptures teach;

First, Shy Lynne and I don't agree completely, as she sees works as just the results of faith (I think).  I see them as the results of faith but also the companion and in some cases even preceeding faith (as in the case of repentance).  Additionally works serve to perfect our faith once it is formed and the fruits of something cannot perfect their origin, thus works must also for this reason be more than just the fruits of faith.  So in a sense a perfect faith is the fruit of works.

Many decievers have gone out in these days, to decieve those who are not wary.

The scriptures are clear to point out, that;

Faith, will accomplish Gods work, in every believer and that is  "that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jhn 6:29, it is Gods Work......... that brings men to Faith in Christ Jesus, if it were not for HIS WORK, no man could come to FAITH.

Despisers of Grace and FAITH, begin Gods gift, always separate the two, claiming they shared in Gods work by doing their part, so salvation to these is Gods Grace, and their faith.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  Mat 24:4

On way of decviieving is to get you to agree with them.....

22  .....the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And it is Faith unto Faith, for the Just shall live by Faith, not by works....

Faith is not the fruit of works nor any kind of works, man can do............at all, it is the the result Gods Mercy and Grace, which will enable one to accomplish works pleasing to God.

Any other works under any other condition are as filthy wrags, before God.

I would be very careful when agreeing with anyone who might twist scripture to mean other than what it clear teaches.


52  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Rebuilding of Jerusalem on: April 05, 2004, 03:07:50 AM
Dan 9
27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 24
15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

If one considers these two key scriptures, concerning the rebuilt temple and temple sacrifices, it is clear that only because of a peace treaty, would sacrifice be allowed on an alter at a rebuilt temple at the present site...................or...........it could be that the temple to be rebuilt is not built at what is presently considered to be the present Holy Site.  Where it is presummed Solomon's temple was built.

Besides it is not Solomon's temple that God's prophecy promises to rebuild, the fallen tabernacle of David (Amos 9:11), and it was not at what is considered the Holy Site today.

When King David, purchased Ornan's threshing floor  (at 1 Chr 21:15-29) for the site of the House of God, which Solomon, built, the Tabernacle of the Lord which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, was at Gibeon.

After Solomon built the House of God, the Tabernacle (also Known as "the Tabernacle of David) was moved from Gibeon to Jerusalem, it was later moved to the City of David which is refferred to as Zion (2 Chr 5:1-2).

It could be, that this house of God, may not be on what is called the Holy Place on temple mount, it could be a hundred yards from the present location, this could be very significant, since Israel could use their desire to build a temple to enter into an peace treaty, which would allow them to resume sacrificial worship.

Whether there is something to this or no, either way, I think we all recognize, there will be somekind of sacricifial worship being conducted at the Holy Place (whereever it is) as per Daniel's prophecy..


53  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: April 05, 2004, 02:24:11 AM
Brothers, Paul2, 2d Tim and BEP, and whoever else................

I simply have no interest in taking competing theories, and then examining the theories, against each other,  for the sake of making one out to be more believable than the other.

When we started, we were to build the facts which were to garner the truth, from Gods word (or so I thought), as you can see, this quickly turned into trying to prove pre trib theory.

I have been asking questions, in an effort to root out error, and establish what is true, only by doing so can one establish what is to be used or discarded to reach a conclusion.  

I see you fellows do not study scriptures in this way.

As for dispproving a pre wrath post tribu rapture??  I doubt anyone can do this.....

As a child of God, who has studied Gods Word for many years, I am supremely confident, there is no one that can disprove it.

There are competing  post trib theories, just as there are pre trib ones, even some that leave, which leave wiggling room, in theirs, to allow the rapture up to a mid trib position.

I made it clear I do not subscribe to the post trib position which has emerged within the last ten years.

The very understanding of certain key verses, make the Pre Trib position irrelevant, since it is upon these erroneous interpretations that the entire theory is based upon.

I can disprove, it by simply pointing out the errors.

So if any of you, who are serious in seeking out truth and care to examine them, without discussing your theories, I will be glad to point these out for you.

There are huge errors, which unless reconciled with the NT verses themselves,  make the  Pre Tribulation Rapture, as I said .............IRRELEVANT.

I have been busy, with other things more important, and that is primarily, why I decided to not continue, this discussion, which was heading nowhere, in my opinion...


54  Theology / General Theology / Re:Who Is Israel and why we need to know... on: April 05, 2004, 12:50:04 AM

I have to say, I disagree with Batya Wooten, on his premise, and basically, because he begins by overlooking that the seed, spoken of at Gen 15:18, the first place where God mentions a covenant between Himself and Abram, is in reference to Jesus, not Isaac.

This is made clear by the Apostle Paul at Gal 3, please note, carefully;

 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The natural seed was naver counted for the promise, I think he agrees with this but, Epherain really has nothing to do with the seed of the covenant, mentioned at Gen 15:18.

Here is the point that he said I take issue with;


Many Believers have today done them selves a disservice concerning Abraham's blessing. Have we seen ourselves as only adopted and not as biological? Scripture explicitly states that Abraham would have a myriad of biological heirs? Have we misunderstood God's promise? Possibly this blindness in part, obscures our heritage and true place in the (to be) Undivided Kingdom of God.

Christians are biological only in the sense, that they are born of incorruptible seed, the word of God. (1 Pet 1:23)  and that is a Spiritual Birth.

And gentiles, who were once strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but in Christ, are made nigh by the blood of Christ, the same Seed of the covenant.  (Eph 2:12-13)

The biological heirs, spoken of by B. Wooten, are  natural heirs, so I see, and while what he says may some truth to it, I see no reason to even consider this matters further, since ALL members of thre body of Christ are both Jew and Gentile, but one body,  

Clearly he has his own reasons for make such a claim, that biological heirs are the church, while this may be true for a portion of it, the majority I am sure will be made up of adopted children, those who were not his children.  But chosen  and predestinated seed from before the World was made.

Both Judah and Ephriam are biological heirs, I do not see Ephraim being representation of gentiles at all.  He is the seedline mentioned Gen 17:7, because he is of the ciucumsicion at verse 10.


55  Theology / Bible Study / Re:Eternal Security Of The Believer on: April 02, 2004, 09:03:05 PM
The law cannot kill the soul, because if a child of God sins, he is no longer judged by that Law, children of God are not under the Law of Commandments, but under the Law of Grace.

You simply need to study this, to understand it.

So was OT scripture Jesus used to answer Satan not relevant, or anything from the OT for that matter?

The law gives us knowledge of Gods will, as I said before, no one will be saved by obedience to it.  Obedience to it will produce Faith in Jesus, if left to do its work.

I know you disagree, because to you just accepting the free gift is all you need to do.

Thats right, it is not Faith plus my works that will get me saved; it is Faith alone that saved me, and that Faith is in Christ Jesus..and His finished Works at the Cross of Calvary.

On the other hand, faith plus keeping the law perfectly only insults Gods Grace, since all who claim one must obey the commandments perfectly not only can boast they have, but then can also demand slavtion, because of what they have done.

The very fact that you believe one sin that you commit, does not unsave you is proof, you don't even believe the doctrine you desire to teach and impose on others, yourself.

How many sins does it take to kill the soul, .................anyhow??

Point being, if it were that simple and nothing more, there's going to be a lot of people going to heaven which is why I stated that scripture because it doesn't support that doctrine.

Is this the reason why you reject  the doctrine of "eternal security" based on Faith alone??

You just don't want people to be saved, because you believe Gods Word..................well,?Huh?

I  guess you must think you are god them............huh??

Friend, You do greatly error, since you are insulted and offended, that God has ordained people will be saved by Faith alone, in His Word alone, and by imposing your own ideas, theories and speculations on what the Word of God says, you reveal what you really believe.

Rather than going thru this excersice of debating, this; why didn't you just admit;

You think you know better than God.  Come on be honest..............

Peter says that it's hard for the righteous to be saved, yet you make it so easy. Sorry, but I'll believe what Peter says.

So what does this prove??..................nothing.

Here is the Greek-English Interlinear NT version;
1 Pet 4
18  And if the righteous with difficulty is saved, the ungodly and sinner where shall appear?

This verse simply proves the "eternal security" position , and that is, that, inspite of many sins, those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of  Promise, will be saved, inspite of themselves.

Rom 5
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

You really do not believe Peter, and it matters little whether you do or don't,  however, you really should believe Jesus, when it comes to this question, what He says about it, is what matters.  Seeing He is God..

Paul said it best;

Rom 7
18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This explains our delima, and this is what I rest on, not in my own abilities to keep laws of commandments, but in Gods Grace.

But please don't misquote me, Christians should make everyeffort in their power to keep Jesus's Commandments, by this we can show the world we are children of God.  It is our testiminy, doing good works and not keeping the commandments, will never convince anyone we are Gods children.

Long enough to know the Spirit behind it.

God bless

Stay with it, that same Spirit can and will lead you in the way of Truth....concerning this matter.


56  Theology / Bible Study / Re:Eternal Security Of The Believer on: April 02, 2004, 08:44:09 PM
everyday newborn reply #70

You teach someone that doctrine and they'll think they can use God's grace as a means to do what they want,
everyday newborn,

You need to read Rom, 6, 7,8, this might shed some light on this matter for you.

because the only consequence of sinning means a falling out of fellowship and not losing their salvation.
You said, you were not talking about sinning and losing your salvation!............which is it??

Are you, or are you not speaking of,  a  Christian being able to lose slavation by sinning??

You are contradicting yourself.

It seems to me, you are not very honest, about what you are saying one moment and then cliaming what falling out of fellowship means,  the next................which is it??

What are you really talking about??   You sound confused..........................?

With that kind of thinking, why would they receive Christ with fear and trembling?

The unsaved will definitely perish if they do not come to Christ by faith in Gods Word, which He has spoken, JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD AND is that Prophet of Deut 18:15-19.

Those who are saved, ..........I give unto them eternal life; and they shall will never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
 (Jhn 10:28-30)

You said yourself that those who reject the teachings of Jesus are as unbelievers,

Can you say that you,  believe Jesus own Words at John 10:28-30??

Clearly in furthering the doctrine you embrace, you don't..believe Him.

If you say you do, How so?

He says, at;

Jhn 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And again,

Jhn 6
47  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

This is not something that happens at the end, it is reality to all who believe Him while in the flesh walking the earth, that is why Paul said;

Jhn 11
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

He even asks you;   Believest thou this?

so if you're not obeying what God commanded then you are an unbeliever.

You do not understand this verse this is why you ask such a question...if you underdstood the verser, you woul;dn't ask it...  because of sin there can be no fellowship, however God does not disown his adopted children, because they have sinned.  

For those that do not they have eternal life in Christ Jesus, the practice of disobedience as a matter of course, could very well be evidence they are unbelievers, and never really were saved, it is called self deception,  It is not enough, to believe I know God, the question one should ask Himself, does Jesus Know me.

2 Tim 2
19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Are you telling me you've never thought about doing something that was against God's will after you accepted Christ, and did it? If you haven't then you're one increadibly remarkable person. But if you have, then by your own definition you're not saved, because your aforethought sin marked you as an unbeliever.

Praise God, I trust in Jesus own blood who covers all of my sins, and not in my own abilities to keep the commandments perfectly, which I never could before I was saved, not to mention I had no interest in them to begin with. The word of God assures me, I was  made perfect in Jesus even  while dead in sin and tresspass, even the Faith I possess was given to me, by Gods Grace.

I suppose you would claim, you conjured up your saving faith??  

Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

I am saying the scriptures make it plain to me, that:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jhn 3:9-11.)

I suppose you would take issue with verse 9.........

Amazingly, you believe I hate you because I point the error you perpetuate by not only believing this great deception, but wanting to teach it.

I ask you, who is he that loves the brethern, one would teach them, doctrines which are man made, begun by the Father of lies, or one who would contends for the faith, pointing out error of heresy, even the doctrine of eternal Faith, denying the blood of Christ that bought them.

The fact is Christians should hate all lies, and should not perptuate lies from the father of lies, your doctrine is a lie.

So nothing in the OT is relevant?

I never said that, did I??

The OT, has been abolished, I guess I assumed you knew this, that will teach me, to assume things, when pointing out things like this..

The reason why the OT has been abolished, is because Jesus the Testator of the New Testament has died, it is a fulfillment of the OT prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

One can learn certain principles which are still relevant from the OT, buit we are not under the OT, for instance at the passage you quote, the sons shall not perish for the sins of their fathers but will perish for their own sins.
So we can toss the Ten Commandments out the window?

The 10 Commandments still serve their same purpose.

These Commandments, were never given, that by keeping them perfectly any flesh could ever be justified before God, they were simply given to be used to determine whether anyone had sinned against God, this is the only reason for the Law of Commandments, they are as a schoolmaster to bring man to Christ by FAITH, and when FAITH comes, that man (who comes to FAITH) is no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal 3:24)

57  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: April 01, 2004, 07:01:00 PM

You cannot analyze anything, unless first you establish facts, as the basis for building an anylitical foundation.

What are you going to analyze, anything I say, with, your own hypothetical presuppositions??

I see no reason to continue, because both you and 2d Tim, have taken scripture and twisted words to the point of invalidating established facts.

Apostasia, is the same word used, to define APOTASY, and it is,................ exactly that, ..............................it is not "the RAPTURE".

You have entrenched yourself, into your own world of words which mean different things to you, so nothing you explain from that point on, will carry any weight, since, as I see, it you and I are on different wave lengths, and will never agree, you have the rapture occuring before the signs, which announce the return of Christ, these are very significant to the believer.

The prophet Jude, writes of these things;

3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Note how we are to conduct ourself during this time of apostasy;

20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

We are called to continue on in the faith, building each other up, having compassion and making a difference even pulling some from the verge of the precipes, who find themselves ready to fall into the flames of the apostasy,
these we are to save with strong, resolute warnings, and instruction,s hating even their garments defiled by the flesh.

I ask how does focusing on a rapture allow us to do this, if we knew when the Lord will return and it is in troublesome times, we would not even care about others, but we would tend to ourselves, this is why the Lord says , "no man knoweth the time neither the hour, not even the angels in heaven, but my Father"

Continuing with Jude..................,and the doom of the apostates as foretold by Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam.  It is a prophecy that is found only in Jude's epistle. Some believe it is taken by the Book of Enoch, but there is no evidence that that spurious book even existed in the time of Jude.

While we do not know , how Jude learned of this ancient prophecy, a simple and plausible explanation is that the Holy Spirit revealed the words to him, just as He revealed and guided all that is written in the other epistles.

Nevetheless, it is a major sign not for unbelievers but, for believers, remember the scripture are written for our edification, firstly, that we might be conforted and stand assured of these things, that will come to pass.

The apostasy, followed by the revelation of the Man of Sin, followed by the appearing of our Saviour.

In your scenario, you have the rapture first, followed by the revelation of the Son of Perdition, and then the appearing of the Lord at the mid tribulation, yet you call yourself a Pre Trib'st, ..................

When does the apostasy occur??

Or, is there one in your theory??

It is bad enough, the language of Revelation is such that, one has a dificult time, trying to tie all the lose ends together without people adding to what is written, for the sake of proving a point.

On the otherhand, it does not help when the third party (2d Tim,) insists that the 24 elders are ressurected men, just because they are wearing crowns an seated around the throne of God, in John's vision, if they are resurrected, then ALL who sleep in Christ, must also be resurrected, yet it is obvious not all are, since there are souls of some who are not, evidenced by Rev 4:4.  

But in the scenario of the rapture according to 1 Th 4:16,  "the dead in Christ shall rise first:"  any NT Saint who dies in Christ, whether it be during the tribulation or before the tribulation, sleeps in Christ.  There is no scripture given which contradicts this at all, yet you and 2d Tim, separate them.

How can you do this??  

Only because you take liberties with the Word of God, thats why.............

In trying to come to some understanding of these things I even got caught up in your theory hrying to expalin, who these elders,are, when it is clear we can only surmise, and assume.

The fact is, we cannot know with certainty who the 24 elders are.

We can speculate that they are understood to be as angelic beings, as the redeemed people of both the OT and NT, ans as NT Saints only.  If we assume this to be so, then we can begin building  and expanding a theory, as has happened here, causing 2d Tim, to be swept away, by claiming with certainty they are redeemed men, sitting on thrones, which extended further, would make them as judges judging in the heavenlies..............and on and on  we can go.....

This is why, I do not see, any reason to continue, we are already, heading out into left field with this, because we keep heaping theory upon theory, and tying them together with presumptions and speculations, we have already missed the mark as I see it.

So why waste time, going nowhere??


58  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages on: March 31, 2004, 12:56:09 AM
2nd Tim: John says they are redeemed men, wearing white robes and crowns.  
Petro: He says those at Rev 6:9-11, were the souls of men, and they also were given white robes, and of course they had no Crowns.

You desire to see, men with bodies when speaking fo the 24 elders, but it ain't there, sorry..

Let me try this one more time.  First of all, this has nothing to do with anyones desire.  The scripure speaks for itself.  Those at 4:4 are wearing crowns and white robes.   I will even concede the thronos here in order to make it plainer for you.   They the 24, and John in the spirit "witness" the breaking of the seals.  At the 5th seal 6:9 they (the 24 and John) see the SOULS of them under the alter.   Can you see what I am saying here?   The souls are not the 24 that are seen in heaven wearing white robes and crowns.   This is not hard to see here....they are the ones that said the Lamb was the only one worthy to open the seals.  They did not then go back to earth to be martyred at the 5th seal.   Two groups!  Some in heaven, some on earth.  Those on earth get martyred.  Those in heaven are already wearing white robes and crowns.  When do redeemed men  receive their crowns?  At the Lords appearing.  Those that were martyred did not receive crowns.  This is not forcing anything, or directed by any desire.  This is all plain scripture here.

Only you can see what you see, I don't see it.

If 12 of these are the Apostles souls in the presence of God, they are members of the Body of Christ, that is clear to me.

petro said;
I am using the same logic you use in trying to force thrones for the elders at Rev 4:4. Is not this seat where Satan dwelleth at Rev 2:13, (he is not omnipresent,)afterall, the word, means a stately seat, potentiate, throne in relation to what??

2d tim replies;
Rev 2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is

Where?  Where this church dwells.  This is the location of Satans seat.  If this is your only defense about the thrones, I don't think its a good one.  However, as I have already said, my argument is fine without thronos.   There is no getting around that those 24 elders are wearing white robes, and crowns, are redeemed men, and their close proximity to the Gods throne is relevant to their importance in heaven at this time well before the martyrs at the fifth seal.

Lets face it you simply will not recant, that these are not sitting on thrones, your wasting your breath, from here on.

Time for me, to ignore your argument. Lets move on.

Blessings, Petro
59  Theology / Debate / Re:Therefore by the deeds of the law....... on: March 30, 2004, 04:34:38 AM
One must have the Holy Spirit (who was given by Jesus to lead His people to lead them into all truth), in this day and age, there are many false teachers, like michael who do not possess the Spirit, yet teach his churches false teaching as doctrines taught by Gods word.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in his posts.


There is nothing in scripture to support your false doctrine that all Christians are always guided by the Holy Spirit to all knowledge and infallible interpretation of scripture.  The fruits of this error are seen every time you pick scriptures out in isolation and then fear to offer an interpretation with them.

Well false doctirne, is something you should be familiar with, that makes you the expert.

However you do confirm what I have shared with you,  you must be born again to possess the Holy Spirit, that is the comforter, who leads all of Gods people into all truth.


Petro, you never have put much stock in my posts -

You are perceptive, I will say that much for you..

going so far as to respond to them without ever having even read them.  It is that type of dishonesty that I don't put much stock in.

I have only responded to those obvious errors you seek to espouse, perpetuating unbiblical doctrines, which I trust very few have believed.

You are decieved.........that is for sure.

60  Theology / Bible Study / Re:Eternal Security Of The Believer on: March 30, 2004, 04:13:50 AM
It is clear from Heb 6, if one who sins and can lose His salvation he cannot be brought back to repentance, so, your understanding of one who sins and humbles himself before God means he must repent, in order to be forgiven of that sin, if you believe one who sins, does not lose salvation, it is because the Blood of Jesus covers that sin, and will cover all sins, until the day he dies.

So it is a matter of falling out of felllowship, not losing ones salvation.

Now there is another spin to this that bronzesanke brought up at the end, of our conversation, and that is a person can be deceived into believing he is saved, and that deception comes about by the person believes that through keeping Gods Commandments he can be saved.

This position is unbiblical... one cannot be saved by keeping the commandments, because the commandments were never given for that purpose, they were given to men, that they
 might examine themselves to see if they had sinned against God.

In your deliberate disobedience you become an enemy of God.

Because dleiberate means you planned it, and weighed the sin against the consequence, and then excuted it, this is the despite done to the Mercy and Grace of God.  This is not what a saved man of God does, this is evidence of an unsaved person, and it should serve notice to those who see it happening, those who are deceived into believing they are saved, can never see this point.

We are saved  by God's grace, but his grace is no means to go on sinning.  To say that you can continue to deliberately sin and do what you want because God's grace will cover a multitude of sins is not a teaching I see anywhere in the Bible, and is a dangerous doctrine to believe in.

The key word is deliberate; in your hypothetical is what makes this teaching unbiblical.

I know of no Christian that teaches such things, do you??


Again, we are saved by God's grace, and I fully believe it.  If we remain in his love, and we do so by being obedient by faith even though we may stumble here and there, and we continue to be humble before him and do his will, we will always be in fellowship with him, we will always have the Holy Spirit to guide us as we listen for it, and we will always be under his grace (because we will always need it) as long as we are on this earth..

This is true.

But if we turn from our ways and sin, none of the righteous things we've done before will be remembered.  

You keep quoting this OT scripture, as though it is relevant.

The fact is if anyone who claims to be in Christ does not commit such  things by his doing the very thing spoken of, he proves he never was  saved.  He deceived himself.  And all
others who are not perceptive.

Why  our turning away we are rejecting God and have left his fellowship, we're not being obedient to his word, and we're not loving him.  If it were not so, then the road would be broad and the gate wide that leads to life, and narrow would be the road and the gate small that leads to destruction.  

I disagree with your undestanding of this, it is clear to me you have work to do, on what the scriptures really teach concerning this.

We just talked about;

You need to accept Gods Woprd as the truth, and move on,
I have accepted ALL of God's Word as the truth, perhaps you need to accept ALL of God's Word, not in pieces you feel safe in.

God bless

Said the kettle to the pot.

How long have you been studying scripture, anyhow??

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