Petro,

I have a response to your last post to me, and I have some questions to ask.  But I will not continue this discussion with you if you continue in your sarcasm and accusations.  You have shown me no desire to seek the truth, and you have not displayed any humbleness or love whatsoever.

Now, if you want to continue with this discussion I'd be happy to, if you so desire to in love and not arrogance.  

If I have preceived this wrongly, please let me know.

God bless

everyday newborn,

What is the truth??

It is clear to me you, do not have it...whether it is because of unbelief or lack of faith, I cannot say..........but truth that is revealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead, is not to be rebuffed for the embracing of man made teachings.

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

It is fruitless to discuss such an important subject with someone, who believes he/she has it, I am not seeking truth, I am sharing it with you....

God loves you and desires you know it, and not allow yourself to be led by every whim of mans teachings, this is why  Jesus said;

Take heed that no man deceive you.

Of course, I trust you have a a reliable version of the scriptures which can be used to check, what has been shared with you.

But thanks for your comments, anyhow..

Blessings,

Petro

ebia,

I can't believe my ears, you mean the pope is fallible?

Does tibby agree with you?

Petro

[Of course.]

Hello Petro.

Thanks for the welcome back...it's good to hear from you all.

"No doubt you believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?? (1 JHN 2:2)"

Of course.

"If you don't, believe His death is sufficient.

What about the blood of Jesus??  

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

Or Just some sins."

 Of course it's enough to cover all sin... for every one on the entire earth from the very begining.

However,

 I don't argue that Jesus' sacrafice was more than enough to cover all mankind's sins. I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

 The scriptures I posted are good examples of this.

Take care my brother.

Bronzesnake

bronzesnake,

I thought you believed in the "eternal security of the believer",  it is odd, you stated;

I also believe that we can fall away and be welcomes back again.

The word we is what didn't sound right, to me....

Now you say:

 

I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

Maybe I had forgotten you don't believe the blood of Jesus covers all sins.

How does this last statement you have made reconcile itself to the sin that causes you to "fall away", you seem to contradict your statement wherein you stated:

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

As I underdstand it, Anyone who comes to saving FAITH in Jesus is saved once and forever, I am not speaking of people that believe, I am speaking of people that BELIEVE, see there is two types of belief, one is to believe without commiting oneself, and the other type is belieivng with commitment.

What kind of belief are you refering to??

If there is sin that can cause you to fall away, how can you say you believe His blood is enough to cover all sins of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future?

Either His blood covers all sins or it doesn't, which is it??

not everyone will be saved will they Petro?

No one is saved that doesn't believe Jesus shed His blood for their sins, and rose for their justification, this is clear from scripture.

Those who are saved, become children of God, born by the will of God, not of the flesh.  (Jhn 1:13)

All who fall in this category, are Sved, Sealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead and become New Creatures in Christ, there names are Written in Heaven, they are given a New Heart and a New Spirit

I guess, you believe, those who believe without committing themselves are also in this category??

That doesn't sound quite right....




Blessings,
Petro

[trust]

4JC reply #28 at Law Keepers

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Since your statement contradicts itself, and I know you better than that, I'll assume the first part is a type-o and you meant to say Faith produces Obedience. Which was my point about the fruit of salvation and I would agree 100%. If I'm wrong about the type-o, then I disagree with the first part.

4JC,

Forgive me, I assumed you understood, one has to hear the word of God firstly (and it must be preached to the individual according to (1 Cor 1:21), before he can trust (a form of belief without commitment) it together with obedience (perhaps this could be even, a simple desire to obey) will produce the necessary FAITH to believe with commitment in Jesus which  saves the individual.

For a blow by blow snap shot of the order, see Ephesians 1:12-13, trust first followed by belief or saving Faith, causes the sealing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  

Only trusting and obeying will produce this FAITH, since it is a gift by the GRACE of GOD, salvation being the end result or the free gift.

Those who separarte Grace from Faith, don't accept this, but it matters little, the fact is one cannot separate Grace (of God), from Faith (in God).

Romans7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good

The commandment of the NT to repent of which Paul refers to at Acts 17:30, is the commandment which damns all who fail to obey it to an eternity in Hell.

This has nothing to do with the 10 commandments, since it is understaood, no one has ever, nor will ever keep the 10 commandments, that is the reason why, Paul say at Eph 2;

1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Rom 6:17,  

notice he doesn't say the;

form of commandments which was delivered you

The moral standards set by the law are a reflection of God's character

No arguments here.

Yes, also see Matthew 9:13. In a nutshell, it was a rebuke. Jesus cites Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam.15:22:Mic.6:6-8).
Which emphasizes absolute priority of the laws moral standards over the ceremonial requirments.

God bless

Wrong, not even close...........the priests performed worked on the sabbath, keeping the sabbath Holy was a commandment, not a moral law, the breaking of the keeping of the Sabbath is offense against God Himself.

Ex 20
8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Understanding this passage of scripture will set you free from bondage of having a need to keep the  the law, and will set you free.  It is good to keep the commandments, but not a matter of life and death, since we are dead to them,

In other words, doing the Lords work on the Sabbath is more important to God, than keeping it.

Jesus hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

There is the Letter of the Law, and the Spirit of the Law.


The priests performed a sacrificial offering on the sabbath.

Jesus rebuked the Pharasees who said to Him;

Mat 12
 2  ...............................Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

What did they do??

And How does that apply to NT Saints, who are Priests of God??

If you come to and understanding of this, you will see Grace in a totally different way.  It is not Grace thru Faith and keeping the commandments that saves, at all........it is Grace thru Faith, period.

Blessings,

Petro

[He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.]

I believe we do have eternal security with Jesus, however, I do believe we can fall away and lose our salvation. We have free will even after becoming born again.
There are some verses in the scriptures which make it clear to me, here are some examples where Jesus makes it clear that some of "His" will not be saved.

 Mat 25:1-13 speaks about ten "virgins" the term virgin denotes pure, or His. All had oil lamps, in other words, all had Jesus, but some were foolish and lost their share of oil.

 Mat 25:14-30 speaks about a "master" who called "his servants" however, some of "his servants" did not receive his approval.

I also believe that we can fall away and be welcomes back again. We all have a certain amount of time to accept Jesus. When He returns in the "end times" at His appointed time, time is up, and if we are not in His service at that time, then we are doomed. The story of the prodigal son is a great example of a "son" leaving his father and returning and being welcomed back with open arms. The son was not received back because of some great work he had completed while he was away, he was a miserable failure without his father and he returned humiliated and humbled and willing to be a servant, so I do not believe we can do anything to save ourselves, we must kneel before the most awsome, powerful, wonderful force in the universe and beyond...Jesus... but Jesus will not force us to stay, He promised us free will and He keeps His promises.

Take care my brothers and sisters.

Bronzesnake.

bronzesnake,


Nice to see you, back posting with us.

No doubt you believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?? (1 JHN 2:2)

If you don't, believe His death is sufficient.

What about the blood of Jesus??  

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

Or Just some sins.

What do these verses mean, to you??

Heb 10
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

and,

Rom 5
8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life through One, Jesus Christ. (NAS)



Notice verse 16, that the free gift by grace (vs 15) is given in spite of many offenses (vs 16)  unto justification,  
because of the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in life through the One, JESUS CHRIST


In otherwords, as I read, these verses, I see, the security of eternal life is NOT based (Not believers own performance), but Christ's Life) on the believers own performance, but based on the  free gift of grace, that leads to justification,through the righteousness of JESUS CHRIST.


What is wrong with this premise..??

God Bless,
Petro
 

[the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.]

So, on the same note;

Rev 20
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Verse above, practically single handedly destroys the Pre Trib, and Mid Trib theories, since it is clear that the souls of these who are spoken of were  produced by their  

refusal to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

According to verse 4 they not only are killed for this reason, but they also are raised to life and reign with Christ 1000 years.

When are they raised??

At the end of the great tribulation, at Christs second coming, are not these those who are spoken of at 1 Th 4:16;??

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If the church (those that sleep, and those who remain alive) are caught up in the air ) returns to rule with Christ of the earth, it is clear these of Rev 20, are a part of it all.

How is the theory, that only His church (those who attend the wedding feast during the 7 year period of the tribulation), who those not go through the Great Tribulation, will come to reign with Him 1000 tears on the earth??

Are there any answers for this apparent inconsistency??

Anybody??




Blessings,

Petro

 

Amen A4C,

Sacramentalism is not bibilical, observance of the system, encourages and apostate form of worship foreign to what the Word of God teaches.

It fosters a faith +works slavation gospel, which is a teaching directly out of the pit.

Praise God, that He has given us His word, that whosoever will can know the truth, and that truth is what sets men free from the bondage of sin.


Blessings,

Petro

[Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance:]

The fruit of the Spirit is;

Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.  (Gal 5:22-23)


Obedience produces Faith, Faith is a gift of the Spirit by the Grace of God.

Christians are called to live from faith unto faith, for the just shall live by faith.

And everything that is not of FAITH, is sin.

Keeping commandments is not of Faith....one must due them.

Did you ever read where Jesus said; even the priests did not keep the sabbath, and were found guiltless??

Mat 12
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


Do you know what this means??


Petro

[4 "these were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reign with Christ 1000 years."]

Another point I am raising, is that Rev 7:14 appears to include tha same individuals that Rev 20:1-9 mentions;  

At  vs4   "these were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reign with Christ 1000 years."

Note verses;

5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And,

6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These are raised at the rapture, which is the first resurrection.(1 Th 4:16)

What verses are relied upon to exclude these that came out of the great tribulation from being members of the body of Christ, they are not only called "saints" at Rev 20:9 but  "priests" at vs  6.??

Petro

[handwritten]

Notice what was handwritten;

Deut 9
10  And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

All the WORDS, means exactly that;

This is NOT refering to the 10 commandments only, which is contrary to what you would say, it is speaking of all the words which the Lord Spake to Moses.

You cannot separate the 10 commandments from the other commandments, given to Moses

Well actually you and others do, because you desire to subvert Gods Word to your own advantage.

However the scriptures are clear that Moses spent 40 days and nights upon the mountain, and in the two tables of stones (Ex 34:1) the entire words of the covenant and the ten commandments were written,

note;

Ex 34
 27  And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28  And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
29  And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30  And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.


Now notice what the Apostle Paul says at:

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious,...............


..............so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13  And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Are you saved, a born again Christian, who possesses the Holy Spirit of God??


Petro

[You have a good point, Petro.]

You have a good point, Petro.


When the young lawyer asked Jesus: "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life", Jesus didn't say: "Just believe on Me".  Jesus went to the law.  Does this seem strange?

wopik,

There you go, and the reason why Jesus pointed Him to the Law, is because at that very moment there was no NO NEW Covenant in effect, have you not read;

Heb 9
13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15  And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.[/b]
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The Law was the only way to God, which was effect, only by odedience to it, could man receive the promise faith of Jesus Christ, that they might be justified by FAITH, isn't this what Paul taught at

Gal 3:
20  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21  Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


You see, verse 24,  "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


And of course, the commandments were the principle element of the Law, since without the commandments, the Law of Moses could not have been the Law of Sin and Death.

No commandments, No sin, and No death.

And thats exactly where we are today, those who are in Christ, are NOT under the Law of Commandments contained in Ordinances, since Jesus not only abolished, but blotted them out (the handwritten ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:14) , to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


It is simple but yet, hard to understand, unless one possesses  the Spirit of God.


Petro

[translate]

Just as Enoch was translate out of this world.

Those who are born again and possess the Holy Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 8:9-11) are presently translated  into the kingdom of his dear Son: and all this by FAITH in the operation of God, according to the Spirit, which dwells in us.

This is why, Jesus also said;

Jhn 10
25  I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and
they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.


Only His sheep know and understand these things, those that are not His sheep, cannot know them, much less possess His Holy Spirit. (Rom 8:9-11), all because they dom not believe Him.

Petro

[And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also]

posted by 2d Tim as reply #283
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This verse makes it clear that this is the second coming...actual return to earth. Verse 21 says the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. IMO this is the second coming, not the ratpure. Of course, placing the rapture of the church at this point would be a post trib event, which seems to have problems with other verses. For example, if it happens at this time, when we go to fathers house where Jesus is preparing mansions for us? (John 14:2) Who is the army seen following Christ dressed in fine white linnen? I say Jude 1:14. And if we are seen coming with him, then we left long before this event and have been dwelling in heavenly mansions.

Concerning the perparing of mansions, all Jesus ever said was;
Jhn 14
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You have to assume Jesus comes twice to make this theory fit, once to come and return imediately to His Fathers House, with only the Pre Tribulation Saints, since this is the teaching of Pre Tribulationism, however, scriptures clearly teaches the saints will be wherever He is, if his return is to the earth at His second Coming, it will be to establish His millenial Kingdom on the earth, and according to Rev 19:14 and Rev 7:14-15, these who tend at the throne of God, came out of the great tribulation.

Which agrees with scripture, Rev 6:11 and those of Rev 7:14-15, are raised at His Second Coming,

At verse Jhn 14:3, He simply states;

 [/b]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also[/b]
 
If He comes to earth to reign 1000 years, that is where His saints will be, with HIM, that is why ;
1 Th4, says;
17  ..................... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
This occurs at His second coming and not before.

And besides, What you are describing at Rev 19,  is the wrath (Judgments) of God upon the earth on the ungodly. being poured out, compare this with Zephaniah 1:7-2:2, and Zec 14:1-16, and the beginning of the Millenial Reign of Christ at Jerusalem.

To me it becomes a real problem trying to seperate Matthew 24:27-30 and Revelation 19:11-21. The more I study Matthew 24, the less I believe it references the rapture. I think its focus is more on tribulation period. The church is not even established at that point.

The rapture occurs at His Second Coming, where in scripture do you read of another Pre Second Coming return, if there is one?,  then Mat 24, would be speaking of His Third Coming.

Another problem is the overlapping of dispensations. Let me say right off the bat, that I lack knowledge in this area of scripture, but I do know that there are no examples of this anywhere else in the bible. If the 70th week begins at the beginning of the tribulation, and the rapture happens at mid or end, then we get overlapping dispensations. There was no church during the first 69 weeks, so it makes sense that there will be no church during the last week. (I will leave this argument for you and Paul2 however, as I am not equipped to debate it....hopefully you guys can shed more light on this.)

That is why the saints of Rev 13;7,10, 14:12, have to be defined, My question still remains,

What makes these saints, diferent from the saints of  say, Eph 2:19-22??

I will admit I am no brain,

But any honest individual that looks at Eph 2:19-22, and compares them to those saints of Rev 13:7,10 and Rev 14:12, if he is honest will admit there is no difference between them,

They are saints because they are called, chosen elect saints of the household of God;

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom ALL the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Blessings,

Petro

Well of course, I just showed you there are scriptures which you said were not there,

ARE they there or not??.

And besides you have already determined (in spite of what scripture, says) the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the Gospel.

What else can be said........nothing.

But I love you anyhow...Bro.


God Bless You,

Petro

[so is every one that is born of the Spirit.]

We will be born again when we are raised from the dead into immortality

This is false, if anyone wants to know the truth of this matter, read what the Lord has to say about this, not someohne who has an opinion.

Especially one who denies the diety of Jesus.

Jesus said;


Jhn 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Even the apostles speaks concerning the new birth;

1 Pet 1
22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Jhn 1
10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And it is not something which will happen in the future, at all, according to Jesus.

Jhn 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[/b][/color]
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

If one possess the Holy Spirit presently, in this life, he is a Son of the Living God, and belongs to Jesus, presently.

Do not be decieved, if you do not posses His Spirit you do not belong to Him. (Rom 8:9-11)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, (in this present life)they are the sons of God, according to Rom 8:14.

Blessings,

Petro