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16  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 21, 2004, 12:11:35 PM

Look, it is useless for you to try and divide the saints into categories, arbitrarily..

Doing this, just simply shows ignorance of what the Scriptures teach. Only by forcing the bible to interpret their theory, can pre tribbers, reach their conclusion, begun in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald.

Which is exactly, what pre tribbers do, they use the word church to divide, Pre Trib raptured saints, from Tribulation Saints, claiming the Pre Trib Raptured Saints are members of Christ Body the Chruch, while the Tribulation Saints are not members of the Body of Christ the Church, even going as far as to teach, that the union (wedding) feast of the Pre Trib Raptured Saints, members of Christ body, raptured before the begining of the tribulation occurs during the time of  Tribulation on  the earth, while other (members of His body) Tribulation Saints are experiencing it.

Then to complicate and unravel their doctrine, they claim, that these Tribulation saints will return with Him to the earth and reign with Him, 1000 years, along with the pre trib raptured saints.

The problem which pre tribbers seem to be blind to, is that their doctrine has TWO resurrections of the righteous, according to this theory, while the Bible only teaches ONE resurrection of the Saints that return with Him, at Rev 20:4-6.

1.  At the pre trib rapture at the secret coming of Jesus.

2.  and,  Towards the end of the great tribulation, at Jesus Second visible and physical Coming.

(Some pre tribbers teach, that both those who sleep are resurrected and those who are alive at the secret coming (who are changed in the twinkling of an eye) are taken back to heaven where they spend 7 years with Jesus, during which time the church (the bride of Christ) is wedded to Him,  during this time also there will be the judgement seat of Christ and Crowns will be given out to the faithfull.)

(Another camp within the pre trib doctrine, teaches, that only those alive at Jesus secret coming are raptured after they are changed in a twinkling of an eye, those that sleep in Christ will be resurrected at Jesus Second visible and physical Coming.) [How these reconcile the wedding feast, is another matter]

Both of these positions are false, and are contrary to Biblical teaching concerning the Rapture at His second coming.

Some such as Paul2, 2d Tim, and BEP, who embrace the pre trib position even would argue that proof that the pre trib position is valid, is because the church is not mentioned beyond Rev 4, this is nonsense..

It is a ridiculous assumption, and unfortunately for the pre trib teaching, the word Saints is used to identify  who the Church is comprised of.

In simple English, the church is made up of those members who are the; The Called, Chosen, Elect Saintsin all dispensations. OT Saints, possessed the indwelling Holy Spirit, just as NT Saints , some where indwelt by the Holy Spirit for specific tasks,  all are known to God, and belong to Christ.

Unfortunately you have entered this discussion late, and are not even aware of How it began;

Perhaps you can define who The Called, Chosen, Elect Saints  are??

Are you able to??

If you can, please do so.

None of the other Pre Tribulationists on this forum,  have adequately defined who these are, thus far..

I don't believe anyone can discuss anything about any Rapture, unless they define who these Called, Chosen, Elect Saints are ..................  and, how they impact the understanding of who is raptured and when...

If you cannot define who these are, this explains why, you subscribe to such a doctrine.

Defining and understanding who these are will determine who is wrong about what...........

17  Theology / General Theology / Re:Would this be sufficient for Salvation? on: April 20, 2004, 12:24:15 PM
posted by michaellegna at reply #46

Interesting claim you are making that you there is no difference between believe in Christ and believing in the Father.

So, by asking this question,  you do admit, that their is a difference, between believing the Father and belieivng Jesus.

That is different from previous arguments you have presented.

How do you explain the Jewish rejection of Jesus and their acceptance of the Father?

We need not speculate about this, it was prophecied;

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them (Isa 6:10).  (Jhn 12:37-40)

There are many to this day who accept Christ and do not accept the Trinity.[/quoted]

What is worse, is there are many today that say they accept Jesus and the trinity, yet they reject, Jesus own words

By allowing themselves to be decived by other men...

How do you explain that??


18  Theology / General Theology / Re:Who Is Israel and why we need to know... on: April 20, 2004, 12:08:18 PM

I gave this a bit more thought, and what I see, is that we gentiles have our lineage thru Abraham, whom we call father.

We could never claim, we are offspring of Joseph or Jacob.

We are complete strangers, and aliens to the household  of God, we were adopted as total outside strangers, to the promises of God.

On the other hand;

Ephraim whose emother (Asenath and Egyptian), together with Manassah (both half related to the sons of Jacob) were accepted by Jacob and therefore given an inheritance as full fledged members of the other 11 tribes,

They would be more representative not of gentiles, but  of the samaritans, of which many would be called Arabs today.

19  Theology / General Theology / Re:Why do we fight amongst ourselves. on: April 20, 2004, 11:45:36 AM
i believe,

Paul said;

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."

In our midst today, there are many different false teachings
propogated and advanced by people calling thmeselves christrians, and clearly by their teachings, they reveal who they really are.

You said;

I dont pretend to know the BIBLE, I believe that no man can truly know the BIBLE.

And there is where your problem lies...

If you do not know the bible??........... how can you discern what teaching is of God and which isn't.

Yet,  If you were asked;  Are you a Christrians?  No doubt your answer would be.................yes I am..

Your statement above, shows you do not believe one, can know the truth as it is written, how then can you believe what Jesus said;

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.  (Mki 13:23)

And then;

Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:4, Mk 13:5)

If you cannot know the Bible, then you are saying one cannot know anything, concerning the things which are freely given to us Christians by God.

Yet the Word of God assures those who believe GOD, they can know with certainty all things

John at;

1 Jhn 2
15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21  I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Only by giving out the truth of Gods Word, can we know who
the liars are,  liars hate the truth.

If Mat 7:21 is true, then we need to be careful not to give heed to those amongst us, who call us brother brother..and yet teach contrary to what is written.

Jesus said to them;

Jhn 8
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with you father.  
39  They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You see how they argued with Jesus??

Now I trust you understand, why it is, those who believe Gods Words, should stand up to those who not only do not, know Gods Word yet try and teach it, but think they do...

20  Theology / Apologetics / Re:THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know on: April 19, 2004, 02:19:57 PM
The rapture doctrine is not a matter of losing salvation, but decption and those who are may not be saved, though they believe they are.

Not everyonje who claims the name of Christ belong to Him, this is what he says;

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 (Mat 7:21-22)

But notice what He says to those who, come to Him in that day;

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.    (Mat 7:21-23)

Only those who belong to Christ, will not be deceived, and it has nothing to do them, but wil be because the Holy Spirit keeps Gods chosen from the great deception, which will bring about the great apostasy in these latter days.

Here is that verse, Jesus spoke;

Mat 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Gods chosen elect  will not be deceived because it will not  be possible for the evil one to deceive them, at this time.

What time??

The time imediately before His return.

The time of the "rapture", His Second Coming.....


[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [/color]  (Mat 24:4-14)

The ends times will be marked by great deception, and many who call themselves christians will fall to it.

Don't be deceived.


21  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 18, 2004, 03:30:14 PM
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  

The people who actually see the abomination of desolation are identified in the next verse, it's the Jews (not Christians)


That is not altogether a true statement.  The following verse does not say that at all.


Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  

The word "them" only applies to them which be in Judea

The ones being identified, at verse 16, are defined at verse 5 to whom Jesus says;

Take heed lest any man deceive you: vs 4.  But, The elect will not be decieved concerning this matter; according to Jesus at verse 24.

and at verse 15,  He says;

"ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,"

Who are the "ye" of verse 15??

ALL those who can be deceived ............. which are included in verse 4, only if one, takes Gods word and arbitrarily decides to divided the hearers of it, into distinctive groups, can one make the verse say what you have interpreted it to say;..............who can be decieved.

The parallel passage, states is clearer at Mk 13:14-16;

Verse 15 and 16, are understood in verse 14 to apply only to them which be in Judea, and does not apply to others which are not.

We understand this clearly, because we understand that the elect[/color] of Mat 24:21-22, applies to the church, since the Apostle Paul defines who the elect are;  notice;

Rom 8
33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The elect are those whom Gods has justified in Christ;.. freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(Rom 3:24-25.

So, As you can see, thou Mat 24:16, may be speaking about Jews who are in Judea, it does not exclude non-jew elect who are included herein, by the same token, verse 15 does not exclude non-jews at all, therefore, your statement is erroneous, Mat 24:15 is speaking of Gods elect which includes Jews as well as non Jews, who shall seethe abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,


I agree, Everything you have posted beyond this point, includes Jews and Non-Jews;


 Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  

  Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  

  Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 This verse (above) also mentions Tribulation for every man that doeth evil. So we are spared from both wrath and Tribulation.

 Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  

 Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.  

 Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


I will not disrespect you by posting verses such as ...

 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.  

We need to separate scripture from what are our own opiniuons;

You said;

[/b]... like you so often do, and simply because you believe you are blessed with eternal knowledge and ultimate truth. You are human, you are not perfect and you may be wrong about this Rapture thing. I may be wrong, that's one reason why I don't post verses that target people who have opposing opinions to mine as being lustful etc...that is judging my friend, and Jesus warns us about that.

 Take care Petro.



Part of being a christian to is to not give credence to nor  advance error,  I have shown you, how it begins and how some then will take the error and advance it.

It is better not to say anything than to take scripture and use it in a way to deceive, all because of twisting, re-interpreting and changing verses to make it apply to our own personal understanding.

There is enough of that going on with the cults, they do not need our help.


22  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-trib Rapture on: April 18, 2004, 01:04:00 AM

I have never heard of that verse.

The one you probably refer to, is;

2 Cor 5
5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Depending on what version, one uses, will determine the way the verse is finally interpreted.

Hope thgis helps...

23  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 17, 2004, 10:24:52 AM
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:

 As long as there are Christians on the earth, satan can not make a physical appearance. Once we are gone, he arrives.

This is the deception.

I suspect the great apsotasy, has begun, by the believing of this deception.

It is no secret;  the reason why Satan arrives on the earth is because he is thrown out of heaven down to earth; presently  he, is being restrained by Michael and His army in the heavenlies, where there is war.

Satan cannot not be in two places at once, since he is NOT omnipresent, thou his influence  does reign thru his ministers on the earth.

Upon his coming to earth, he will begin persecution, which leads to the great triobulation.

Rev 12
9  .........."the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
12  ............... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the great tribulation which occurs on the earth, and it is brought about by Satan, not God.


24  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-trib Rapture on: April 17, 2004, 10:13:18 AM

Welcome to the forum,

As you can see it is becoming a big issue as the day drweth near.

I hate  to say it, but, the reason why it is, is because there is much speculationa presumption drawen by those who come forth with unbiblical conclusions.

I know one thing, and that is the The Judge of all the earth, will in the end do what is right, this we can be assured of.

The biggest problem I see with the Pre Trib theory, is that Christians who come to Faith in Jesus, are left out of the wedding union to Christ.

Since the Pre trib doctrine teaches that the church is taken out of the world and the wedding of the Chruch (the Bride of Christ) is married to Christ), never mind, they agree others, who are also, considered Saints and members of the body of Christ are left to go throught the great tribulation.

Another problem with this theory is that scripture words and verses, are twisted stretched, and re-interprted to mean something other than what common sense and  sound biblical hermeneutics would teach the feeble brain.

The third problem is that the theory, has the rature occuring before the two signs that scripture has preceding the event (2 Th 2:3).

There is an apostasy first, followed by the revelation of the man of sin, the Son of Perdition, before the coming of that day then can and only then can the rapture occur.

Then they totally ignore the 30 day difference between (1290  days of of Daniel 12:11-12 and 1260 Rev 12:6), at which time the abomination of desolation is set up and then another 45 days to the end of the age which makes it a total of 1,335 days from the Mid-Trib to the time of the Lords physical return to the earth.

You can see if one reads some of these threads from these pro-pre-tribbers, they make no mention, neither explain how they fit these days into the theopries, they just simply follow their favorite teachers lead and use 1260 days to get to the mid trib and 1260 to the Lords return, but clearly, if one reads Daniel's words carefully, at;

11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The days of the great tribulation cut short of Mat 24:21-22, is at 1260 days, but the Lord does not return until 1335 days from;

from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, of Dan 12;11.

So, the Pre Trib rapture I am afraid is not an axiom, drawn from a solid study nor understanding of scriptural teaching.

The end times biblical teaching is a very difficult to undertsand prophetic subject, and we should not allow speculation and theory to enter into it, it should be looked at carefully and methodically, consider spiritual with spiritual, precept must be upon "precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isa 28:10.

And much prayer, only then can we be taught doctrine by Gods Spirit.

I am impressed that it is not a secret that cannot be understood, since Jesus himselvf promised us we could know all things, which are given to us of God, and the Angels own words to Daniel say;

Dan 12
10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

There are no scriptures which prove a secret coming of Jesus, on the other hand there are many more scripturtes that prove the rapture occurs at His Second visible, physical  coming.



25  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages on: April 13, 2004, 08:16:08 PM
At Mat 24:27, the same word;

"wsper gar h astraph exercetai apo anatolwn kai fainetai ewV dusmwn outwV estai kai h Parousia tou uiou tou anqrwpou"

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (parousia/advent) Coming of the Son of man be.

"sicut enim fulgur exit ab oriente et paret usque in occidente ita erit et Adventus Filii hominis"

Now the verses that I have given you which contain the word coming, Advent and Parousia are clearly, referring to the one and only Second Coming of the Lord, now consider these following verses:

In English:
1Thess 4
15 ........we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord.........

1Thess 4
17 .....we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

According to these two verses the coming in verse 15 is based on the Greek word Parousia which is also used to describe the Lord's Second Coming in Matthew 24.

Pretribulationists adamantly say that "Second Advent" is a separate event from the rapture and that we should not confuse the rapture with the Second Coming of the Lord - the Second Advent.

Mid Trbulationists thou they have the order correct, have the timing wrong, this disagrees with scripture, because it is before the time appointed, by making the rapture occur before the end of the great tribulation, they leave many Christian members of the body of Christ out of the Blessed Hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)

But just by looking at 1Thes 4:15 & 17 in English, one can  clearly see it refers to the rapture occuring at His Second Coming.

Now consider the Greek and the Latin, in these verses, again:

Note:  (I will only post the pertinent words)

1Thes 4:15 .......we which are alive and remain unto the Parousia..

1Thes 4:17 .......we which are alive and remain shall be Harpadzo.......

1Thes 4:15 .......we which are alive and remain unto the Adventum..

1Thes 4:17 ........we which are alive and remain shall be

So what can be learned from this??

The Second Coming (or Advent or Parousia) occurs at the same time as the (Rapiemur or Harpazo or "rapture")

We can understand in a logical sequential order the line of thought that Paul began in 1Thes 4:15 which says;

 .............we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord..........

which includes 1Thes 4:17 which then says;

......we which are alive and remain shall be caught up[raptured together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is only one Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, at His Coming Christians will be raptured. together with the resurrection of those who sleep in Him, it  happens at the Last Trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) which is  defined in the Book of Revelation as the Seventh Trumpet (Rev 11:15).

This means that Christians (unless, of course one dies) must be here for the previous six Trumpets and that means the Antichrist comes first before Jesus and the rapture event.


2Thes 2,

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (which is a parallel passage to 1Thes. 4:17)
2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Paul's own words devastate any rapture theory which comes before , the Great  Apostasy and the Antichrist being revealed.

What I have pointed out is a clear reference to the rapture occuring at the Second Coming of the Lord and not in any "secret rapture" or "mid point rapture" which excludes some members of the church.

I gave a lot of concrete scripture to show my point, no attempt at deception involved.
I dont use Matthew to interpret Matthew or the Book of Revelation to interpret the Book of Revelation unless I need to. There are all kinds of prophetic scripture in the OT for the end times, if you dont use them, you will miss it.


Sorry, I don't see, where you said this either, your statements seem to be generalized, but thats ok, I have given you some meat to consider.

Praise Him, and God Bless you, keep studying, no one can go wrong doing it.

Most importantly, pray for wisdom and understanding, that is the key.


26  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages on: April 13, 2004, 08:15:16 PM
posted by aj,

No brother I said I didnt know if the woman or manchild are the church...i said i hope the church is part of one or the other...if not... the church may go trough the Great trib to do exploits...


Sorry, I don't see, where you said this, but if you meant to say it, I never gathered it that way.

for Daniel says the saints will turn many to righteousness at this time...,

Jesus when praying to the father, said this;

Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: ..........................
 (John 17:1-21)

I have taken the time to emboldened key words in the passage.

There is really no need to quote Him further, since He has said everything there needs to be said about those who will be raptured, right here in these verses.

Your attention is invited to verse 21, .....Notice who the "they" are.

They are ONE in both the Father and the Son, and they are His members, the Body of believing Saints, who will be kept from the evil, vs 15, and HE shall raise them up at the last day, vs 2 and Jhn 10:28.

Today by the word of the faithful testimony of the Jesus, many are made righteous because they have been given faith of Jesus, to believe yet those who testify, as well as those who believe die a natural or other type of death or are killed for their faith, but that doesn't matter they (and God knows who they are, whom He has given to Jesus) will ALL be raised at Jesus Second Coming.

The English word Coming in reference to the "Coming of the Lord" is translated 'Advent' in the Latin, and originates as 'Parousia' in the original Greek. There is no distinction between Advent and Parousia because they are used to represent the same thing.

The Greek wordcoming from 1 Thes. 4:15... is translated in each of the following, thusly;

"touto gar umin legomen en logw kuriou oti hmeiV oi zwnteV oi perileipomenoi eiV thn Parousian tou kuriou ou mh fqaswmen touV koimhqentaV"

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the (parousia/advent) Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

"hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini quia nos qui vivimus qui residui sumus in Adventum Domini non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt"

At 2 Thessalonians 2:1 the same word is translated in the three languages as follows;

"erwtwmen de umaV adelfoi uper thV ParousiaV tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou kai hmwn episunagwghV ep auton"

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the (parousia/advent) Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

"rogamus autem vos fratres per Adventum Domini nostri Iesu Christi et nostrae congregationis in ipsum"

At Matthew 24:3 : the same word is once again transalted; from the Greek;

"kaqhmenou de autou epi tou orouV twn elaiwn proshlqon autw oi maqhtai kat idian legonteV eipe hmin pote tauta estai kai ti to shmeion thV shV ParousiaV kai thV sunteleiaV tou aiwnoV"

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy (parousia/advent) Coming, and of the end of the world?"

"sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto dicentes dic nobis quando haec erunt et quod signum Adventus tui "et consummationis saeculi"


27  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages on: April 13, 2004, 11:30:14 AM

That is fine with me, if you would rather isolate yourselves, to study together, then what else can be said;

It is clear to me, you are statisfied that you have the truth, and there is none other, it is a mystery to me, why you BEP, and 2d Tim, would want to study a theory you already agree with. Instead,  of answering questions which clearly disprove the theory at the verses you all use, to embrace, as  foundational to the establishing such a teaching.

But if that is what pleases you, why should I stand in your way.

Have at it.....


28  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages on: April 13, 2004, 11:28:11 AM
Thats correct Smiley The man child is caught up to God at the mid point with no trumpet...the woman is protected here on earth for 3 1/2 years...she goes with the last trump, she will be the only one left ...as the man child is gone, and the rest of the saints are killed. Understand now?

Praise the lord Petro im still studying it.

God bless you  


No, actually you have confused me moreso,  

It seems as thou you are saying, the woman is the church, and so is the man child, He (He meaning; part of the church is raptured) and the rest of the church is left behind.

How do you connect the Woman being one and the same as the Man child??

Gal 4, says;
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This same heavenly Jerusalem is mentioned as the bride at;

Rev 21
2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

As I understahnd it,  the church is a great mystery, please note this scripture;

Eph 5
21  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

It is clear to me, that the union of the church and Christ have not occured at Rev 12.

So to consider them as one and same at the point of Rev 12, is not scriptural.

On the other hand if there is any truth, that wedding occurs after the rapture, and before His coming, then this might be considered as a viable conclusion.

If the rapture occurs at the shortening of the days of the great tribulation (this is Pre Wrath as opposed to Post Trib, since it occurs imediately before the end of the Great Trib, His return is imediately after the Tribulation of those days.) and the union to Christ is celebrated (no saints, who are members of his body, of his flesh and of His bones is left out),

This is the central point of debate, between Pre Tribulationist together with Mid  Tribulationists  and  the Pre Wrath Rapture position, they (pre and mid tribbers) are unable to include all who are members of the body of Christ, with the rapture and the wedding feast union to Christ in their theory.

It seems they selectively exclude, those who obviouly are members of the church, the body of Chrisr by placing the rapture before the signs and time appointed.

And all because rather then accepting what is written, just as it is written, they twist, stretch, and mis interpret words, written for their own edification.

As you can see go so far to interpret apostasy for rapture....

Is that deception or what??


29  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Pre-wrath investigation on: April 12, 2004, 06:11:56 PM
Se what I mean.

The falling away to these is the rapture...

My question to these is when, then is the apostasy, spoken of by Paul'

2 Tim 4
1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2  Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Cor 11
13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

1 Jhn 2
17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21  I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Why is it that these that DO NOT believe one can have enternal life presently,  the same ones which twist God's Words.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:[ /b]

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Cor 4:2-18)

If the "falling away" is the "rapture"??

How is it, a sign for believers on the earth, where with they should be comforted,

Those of Thessolinica, thought that the Day of Christ had come and gone and left them behind, the falling away is a sign that precedes the revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition which to be followed by the second coming of Christ.

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Pre tribbers have the order backwards, the rapture ahead of the other two signs, note;

5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Key verse in this passage is verse 8;  It is fullfilled at Rev 19:19-20

17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The serpent is bound at this same time for a thousand years.


30  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages on: April 12, 2004, 01:57:00 AM

I dont' see, how you tie the mid tribulation rapture to what you have written, however;

Here is a verse that pretty well sets the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, in concrete;

1 Cor 15
50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now, this cannot be speaking of the end of the millenial reign of Christ on the earth becuase, Paul includes himself himself, in verses 51 and 52, whehn he says ; "We shall not all sleep" and then follows it up by stating "we shall be changed"  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

And above all else, it is understood His Saints will reign with HIM, and rule the nations..............

But note the last trumpet at verse 52, how do you reconcile the idea of a mid trib rapture to this passage, clearly this passage refers to the 7th Trumpet of Rev 11:14-19.

The return of Christ to the earth is the Thrid Woe for the nations and unbelievers.

Notice closely;

Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Th 4
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/b]
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

(at verse 16, what I emboldened is exactly the words used at the Greek English Interlinear, NT)

 The Prophet Joel at;

2:1  Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand..................

The  trumpet of 1 Th 4:16  is the same trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52, and Joel 2, announcing the coming KING.

Consider Rev 11, above at verse;

16  And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshipped God, KJV
17 saying "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.ESB
18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.KJV

How about Isaiah's prophecies;

Isaiah 27
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt, the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel.
13  And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out of the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the Holy Mountain at Jerusalem.  ESB

The nations were angry"............... is once more a reference to that messianic Psalm 2, therefore, his wrath has come, Isa 34:2.

"Walvoord]/b] points out that the same Greek word (Gr. verb form of orge) is used for angry and wrath, the wrath of men is wicked, the wrath of God is holy."

Zepheniah says concerning the wrath of God

Zep 14
14  The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16  A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

There is many more verses I could post which prove the Day of the Lord, Day of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ are the same day, and it is the same day that He gathers those that sleep in Him from the four corners of heaven and those that remain on the earth, it beings with a shout from the Arch Angel and the sound of a Loud Trumpet.

And clearly it is not at the mid point of Daniels 70th week.




Jesus put this day in perstpective at Mat 24:37-38, just as Noah entered the Arch and God closed the door to the Arch, the rains that destroyed the earth, began, and it rained forty days and forty nights.

Verse 39, at Mat 24, defines that day as the one of 1 Th 5:4, 2 Th 1:10, 2 Th 2:3, according to what Jesus said, at Mat 24:29

Luke 17, .....................says;
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

Yes, I know this is hard to believe, (for some), that the creator of the heavens and the earth might be limited by time to accomplish what He has written to occur in one day,  but what can I say, it is written, that pretty well settles it, so far as I am concerned.

Why twist words to make it say other things..

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