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1321  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 24, 2003, 05:37:19 PM
I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs.

Wouldn't you be doing the same thing right now?  Or are you telling me that you know so much more then me that I should come back later?  Either way I don't care.  I am studying my bible all the time.  As we all SHOULD be doing always.  It's funny you didn't seem to have such a problem with me when my SN was atyrus28.  Oh well as I said I'm none too worried.

God bless,

The fact is, I don't have a problem with you at all, it is just the way, you came out throwing your weight around.

I've read enough of your posts, to know you agree with what John Calvin taught; I think you don't realize it, and then again maybe you don't, who knows??

One must reject Calvins teachings to accomadate the unity teaching, these days.  Thanks but no thanks...

Again, John Calvin never articulated the 5 Points of the TULIP, they were written to counter the 5 articles of the faith, submitted by Jacobus's following; and more prcisely as a logical conclusion addressing exactly point for point.

The fact is, Calvin's teachings, can't be reduced to 5 points, its ridiculous, to even begin to believe this, and above all else
the first point insults the natural tendency of man, because after all, isn't he like God, to know good and evil.

The problem as I see it, is the false teaching that is perpetuated by this idea, "man has a free will", when it is evident he doesn't, and then for you to make a blanket statement and accuse those who stand firm on this truth, by stating, those who believe this, don't share the good word with a dieing world is a careless, not well thought out statement, you may have met some who claim association with Calvinism, but you haven't met all, your percentages mean nothing, it all depends where you hang out.

Anyhow, it's not just the "birds nest", but where the other end of the line is,  the hook line and sinker, of these erroneous teachings have been swalloewed by those who are supposed to be the fishers men.. go figure..  

Blessings to you also,

1322  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 24, 2003, 02:29:53 AM
I debated on whether or not to pull out this soapbox...and decided it might be helpful.  Hopefully I've exercised good discernment here.

First of all, thank you for your reply S4Ever!  It gets me to thinking about that soapbox.  I've come to an understanding concerning "teachings."  If others were to put their opinion of which viewpoint I adhere to, I'm sure that the Calvinistic viewpoint would be cited, namely because of the posts I've given on the subject.  While I agree with many of the tenants with acception of irresistable grace, I still do not consider myself a Calvinist.  While I agree with the Armenian concept of free-will (per se), I don't consider myself a hybrid Calvarmenist (  Grin )!  I rather consider myself a Biblicist.  Here in is the problem with such a statement.  Interpretation.  My understanding of scripture doesn't necessarily agree with others, and runs the risk of offending them when I say "Thus has said the Lord."  Why?  Because what He said may not agree with their theology.  But that's another soapbox  Cheesy...The thing I've come to realize, is that many of the "greats" we espouse, have this same understanding.  Calvinistic in nature, biblical in application.  Who?  Spurgeon and Edwards to name a few!  

The point I'm verbosely attempting to make is this:  God said it.  It cannot be explained adequately away with blanket statements concerning His love and death for all (which, I personally believe and agree whole heartedly with!).  And yet, He grants me choice of obedience; a choice that does, in some inexplicable way, determine my eternal standing.

Greetings Allinall,

Not that it makes any difference, but aside from Spurgeon, & Edwards, the points are a summation poorly articulated of what John Calvin taught; then there is D.L. Moody, H.A. Ironsides, Tory, J. Vernon McGee, every great teacher of the Word of the 20th Century, except Billy Graham, I don't know what he really believes; since herein, he stated, man can be saved in a varity of different ways, I hope this is not true.

It's hard for me to believe this, but, he was a signor of the;

Evangelicals and Catholics Together; Christian Mission in the Third Millenium Contract dtd March 29, 1993

The issue is not the 5 points of Calvinism, its what did He (Calvin) teach.

Instead of looking to see, if the teachingfs, aligned themselves with Biblical teaching, "Liberals" argue against His teachings, based on the points.

Igtnorance is bliss....I guess..this proves it.


1323  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 24, 2003, 02:10:16 AM
I never said everything calvin ever taught or said was wrong.  But you like others cling to a man's idea that don't totally hold up to what the bible says.  When one is a biblicist then he sees that there are both things in there yet they don't seem to totally fit together.  This is where the faith truly comes in.  You make the bible fit your theology instead of making your theology fit the bible.  

I never said that anyone never err but to use the excuses I've heard for not doing something they KNOW they should do is sad and quite upsetting.

You can make all the accusations you want it bothers me llittle.  

Take care,
Jason (cowboy) hehe that's funny.  Grin


Yeah, yaa, yaa.....pipe dreams///

My mistake, I guess I owe you an aopology, you didn't rail on Calvin himself, it was another cowboy.  and you haven't convinced me your all that astute..on what Calvin taught, so it doesn't matter, what comments you make.

I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs.

He Hey,..

1324  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 23, 2003, 02:48:59 PM
That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too?

Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come?


What is your point, all who are saved, are saved by Grace, thruoght all generations and dispensations.

And Jesus, had disciples while walking on the earth, and has them today.

Mat 24, speaks loud and clear of the end times, and his second coming.



That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too? ISRAEL!

Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come? No. It came in Acts Chapter 9  Grin

1325  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 23, 2003, 02:44:16 PM
but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't..  and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist.

You really make me laugh sometimes.  You aren't a staunch calvinist yet you defend it as if it were the end all be all.   Roll Eyes

Whatever, you and many Calvinist's don't truly understand sovereignty.  Just because someone has total control does not mean they have to exercise total control and then can change when they want.  Calvinism also places the boundries of time on God constantly moaning about "before the foundation of the world" yet God is not limited by time seeing as to Him things are, were, and going to be all at the same time.  We are "with God now, not born, serving Him now."  mind boggling to say the least and I don't even try to comprehend it because it makes my head hurt.  

When you realize this things become much clearer.  It's really impossible for us to understand the concept of knowing everything at once.  Also from what I've heard calvinists believe in man's responcability and God's sovereignty at the same time.  Oh, ok that makes sense and still keeps in line with Calvinism.

Just think, did it ever occur to you that nothing occurs to God?

God bless,


 posted  by Saved 4ever, on the TULIP thread, while answering Jeolkaki;

Well until I have some better experiences it remains unchanged.

Concerning your comenent to Joel,

I knew you were speaking from experiences, when making those accusations, do you do what you ought to??

I suppose I should have eloborated, in my closing comment, I am sure you don't slip your tongue occasionally.

Concerning what Calvin taught is what I defend, there is no bases to the teachings on the other side Peligianism, or semi-Peligianism is error, period,

As I stated before and many times before, the 5 points of Calvinsim are not what Calvin taught at all, they could have been better articulated, in line with his teachings, and it would keep from turning into what it has become today.

You "free agents" are a joke, in the end you agree, with what John Calvin taught, but are so proud, you would rather be known as lone rangers, then confess it publicly,if you do believe the bible you all are "closet Calvinists" and don't even know it.

Desiring to be teachers, you have need of being taught..

1326  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 23, 2003, 02:15:29 PM
posted by tawhano
I didn't say anything about 'free agent' being a biblical term. I was saying that I refuse to bond myself to man's teaching of the Bible  


What?, you say just because I post a few verses, it doesn't prove anything??  That is strange, coming from one who claims to believe the Bible.

It is written, how can two walk together, lest they agree...

Unwittingly, you and others who make these blanket statements, "I only believe what the Bible teaches" think you have one up on all other run of the mill Christians as thou, you undertsand all there is to know about what the Bible teaches, but the fact is while rejection one doctrinal position you embrace another, taught by men.

And sometimes, depending how you understand a certain verse or passage, you have a little of this and a little of that teaching of this or that man in your doctrine.

We fishermen call it a "birds nest", and as anyone who knows anything about fishing, it is impossible to catch anything with such a mess;  learn from Paul, he took three years, upon being saved, and went to Arabia, to untangle his fishing line, and then came forth preaching Christ in power by the Holy Spirit, whom he persecuted.

Free agents, in the end what they claim to believe and what they believe are two different things, so who is deceived in the end??

Am I wrong in understanding you believe that the Bible teaches, these in Heb 6, are saved and Lost their Salvation??

We both read the same passage of scripture and come away with two different interpretations.  Why is that??  

The answer to this question lies in the Word of God.

Understanding words, is basic to being able to put together the teaching, the passage of scripture teaches,  to the teachable.

May I share verses with you; I don't doubt one monent if you say you believe what the Bible teaches, that you will deny these verses..

Deut 29
29  The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

1 Cor 2
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now refering to verse 29, of Deut 29 above, the NT at Gal 3:22-25;  makes it plain;

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

So, then the Bible teaches that the law of sin and death, this is the same Law of Moses, which was "written and engraven in stone" by God; it is done away with in Christ when men turn their hearts toward Him.

Do you believe this??  The Bible teaches it in the New Testament plainly...for all to read and understand.

I can safely say, only the natural man, or a babe in Christ is unable to believe this..that the Law which was written in stone is done away with in Christ Jesus; and those of us who claim understanding of that which is written know and believe this is speaking of  all that was written on those tablets of stone Moses prepared, this includes the Comandments

Are we in agreement, thus far..

1327  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 23, 2003, 12:57:26 AM
author   Sower

So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace.

The great deception is that a mere mortal, a saved sinner -John Calvin -- could put God into a box called "Reformed theology".

Bible truth is plain, but the workings of God upon human hearts are mysterious and cannot be boiled down to five points or fifty points. This is what Scripture declares:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30).

(1) God commands all men
(2) God commands all men everywhere
(3) God is not willing that any should perish
(4) but that all should come to repentance
(5) God would have all men be saved
(6) And come to a knowledge of the truth
(7) God says "Ho, every one that thirsteth, Come"
(Cool God says "Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved"
(9) God says "Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely"

On what grounds can any man controvert this invitation with the false doctrine of limited atonement?

Unless you answer this question satisfactorily for everyone, none of the rest of your questions matter.


Sower,  you are slippery.

The points you make above are Gods will for mankind, Gods says, God Commands, God desires, no argument with these.

But you whiz against the wind on this one, speaking of JW's, your argujments remind me of, them, when one starts to pin them down, they change the subject.

Concerning Calvinism;

You argue against all the points, without considering what each point really proposes, and when asked tough questions, you jump to the next point without resolving the previous point.

Your arguments, are based on a distorted view of what Calvin taught, and you assume that the 5 points of Calvinism are "before the fact", while the case has been plainly made, that both sides  have proposed the points as a summation of what the scriptures actually teach concerning these things, according to the views of these two camps.  

One not only has been rejected, but deemed heretical in their stance, if you say, in rejecting the point of election (another gospel) I presume you align yourself with the heretics, on it.

And of course, like all bias individuals, you view what you presume to be so, in a different light.

Your attention is invited to Reply #3, on the Theology/Calvinism  TULIP- thread ;

You make this claim on 4/15/03:

"Total Depravity" which according to Calvinists means that no one can respond to the Gospel unless they are made to respond by the Holy Spirit because they are one of the Elect.
(notice I have emboldened the lie, you inserted in your statement)

Just like a false teacher, you have taken a biblical truth and inserted a lie.

Calvin taught plainly, that every sinner must believe first before he can be saved (sealed by the Spirit of Promise), those who believe and are saved, are revealed as the elect. Of course there is more to this doctrinal point, but in summation the point of the acronym designated by the letter T,  It is accurate to state, "the elect are saved", and ultimately when all is said and done, one can safely state "only all the elect are saved.

Calvinism's Uncoditional Election, is not based on God's foreknowledge. While Conditional Election (the Arminian position) is rooted in predestination being God's foreknowledge, the mere definition of Grace, refutes this very thought.

I doubt you even can grasp this.

Again in Reply #2, of this thread, you posted the following:

"Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel."

How absurd, your statement,  together with this last one.

These, for sure reveals to me you are misinformed and as I said before, you are not qualified to speak about the subject of what John Calvin taught, you know nothing at all of  the principles which he taught concerning these doctrines.

God while speaking to spiritual Israel, says;

Isa 43
 4  Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

Rom 9
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I suppose you would argue, these verses are not speaking about Gods sovereignty??

I know you and the camp you represent, can't stand God being  Sovereign over his creation, and this is the reason, why you reject these biblical truths, you make yourself sovereign, and would probaly even argue man's free will is equal to God's sovereign will, but the worst thing is that in order to give your point credibility, you attack the teachings of a real man of God.

I say engage your brain, before opening mouth, on the other hand I do not have to answer any questions satisfactorily to any of these points, they speak for themselves, all any honest individual has to do is take the time to familiarize himself with what is REALLY taught, before jumping to conclusions, and making wild assertions, this is why you all have no credibility.



PS  I am not in total agreement with the manner in which the points are articulated, but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't..  and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist.
1328  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 22, 2003, 10:35:47 PM

I suspect that the confusion is my use of the words ‘physical endurance’. I’m not talking about un-believers and believers alike lasting in the flesh till the end because they endured afflictions but rather the believer lasting in his faith till the end (his death). If you stand fast in your faith in Christ then you shall be saved but if you ‘fall away’ like the seeds in the parable and in Hebrews 6, then you will not be saved. If your love for Christ wax cold because iniquity abounds then you will not be saved

Perhaps the confusion may be that I don't understand your definition of being ‘saved’. When do you believe a person is saved?


I can see, what the problem is, I asked asaph this same question, concerning Heb 6:4-6; how one understands these verses, makes a world of difference how he sets his foundational doctrines.

Those spoken of in Heb 6:4-6, are unsaved.

They are like Judas Iscariot, or the Mohamads of the world, they came up to the tree of life but never partook of the fruit.

You need to work on these, only then will you get a correct understanding tghe definition of "saved" according to scripture, never mind about my definition.

By the way, there are no "free agents" I don't know where this is taught in scripture, this is pipe dream, only deception and pride put this elusive desire in sinners who want to be their own self made person; man is either in bondage to sin, or a bond servant to Christ.


1329  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 22, 2003, 01:35:40 PM

This argument is so old and silly.  You have people who believe in Calvin, people who believe in Arminius and then people who believe in God.

Not only is it silly, but destructive as well.  This division has done great harm by maintaining a rift over two schools of theology rather than unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.
It is true that neither school is correct, and both are fundamentally flawed. It's time to say throw both out and let Scripture be the sole authority.

God does not elect some to heaven and others to hell.  Christ's atonement cannot be limited since He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29).  Otherwise Scripture would not declare "God now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (Acts 17:30). Neither does a true child of God lose his or her salvation.

As to the question heading the thread, Calvinists who have genuinely believed, genuinely repented, and genuinely received Christ are indeed saved. So are Arminians. So are all believers who simply ignore their theology.

I don't agree with you at all, those who are saved, are saved  providing they have been regenerated by the Spirit, it matters nothing if they adhere to either teaching (this agree to comp[letely) . If so, they should be teachable and sensitive to what the Spirit teaches.  Many who claim to be are not, it is evident by thie worship and twisted understanding of scripture.

The questions I posed to you, are difficult, I knew you wouldn't anwers them, and I know you nor others who rail against Calvinsim, are unable to answer, because there are no anwers.

The only reason you say what you've said, is because you know anyone who is elected by God and predestinated to Eternal Life can never lose the free gift that the grace of God has provided through faith.

But your understanding of the "T" which brought us to this point is flawed.

So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace.


1330  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 22, 2003, 01:11:40 PM

What scriptures do you rely on, aside from the the fact God is long suffering not willing that any should perish.

Which would substantuate your belief, that sin would not cause imediate death.

According to the Law of Moses, the man that broke the law, was put to death that same day.

We know Adam die spiritually, the very day he disobeyed the command.

Transgression of the law is sin, according to (1 Jhn 3:4)

God himself says;

Eze 18

4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Certainly you must have a more perfect understanbding of some scripture which assures you, you do not die, when you commit sin??

It is interesting that idolatrous religions today, have a similar understanding of scripture, but certainlhy you don't place your faith in these teachings.

My Bible gives a perfect parallel in the story of the Prodigal son, to a child of God, commiting sin and never being disowned by his father.

I am afraid, yours is a misunderstanding together with these others, based on giving more credibility to the teaching of men, rather than listening to the Words of the Savior.

No one who is saved can or will lose his salvation.

I wonder how you interpret Heb 6:4-6??

The they's in these verses, are they the saved ones??


1331  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 22, 2003, 12:53:47 PM
Posted by Tawhano as Reply #76

Petro said:
"It makes no difference; what any man says;
Christians ought to listen to Jesus."

I agree, which is why I asked how the 'Parable of the Sower' in Matthew 13 and this verse below, fits in with the OSAS idea.

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I can't see your argument that the 'endure to the end' means something other than physically enduring till the end comes. As shown in these scriptrures:

Matthew 10:21-23
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 4:4-5
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Hebrews 6:4-15
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

In the Greek hupomeno {hoop-om-en'-o}

1) to remain
2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ
b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

I guess from your reply there is some confusion as to what I am asking. I simply want to know how these scriptures line up with the idea of OSAS. I'm not asking for more scriptures but a clarification on the above scriptures in light of OSAS.


I don't know why you would be confused, since from the begining I have been pointing to the same points you close your post with.

Man can do nothing, he is totally helpless, with regard to his unsaved condition, this is why Total Depravity of the TULIP, we were discussing, is termed "Total Inability"

And, to answer your question directly; you posted;

"I can't see your argument that the 'endure to the end' means something other than physically enduring till the end comes.

As shown in these scriptrures,to keep from quarreling about it:

Jesus tells us;

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
(Jhn 15:4-5)

And, again;

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (Jhn 6:63)

Physical endurance is not what is going to be rewarded in the end with salvation, this is not in view in the verses, you have given; and by your own understanding of the Greek word "hupomeno" and your 2 points you make at the very end it is evident, and plain you don't believe it, yourself.

Since the scriptures are written primarily for Christians (as well as non Christians), it is NOT possible for the unsaved to be saved just by enduring outside of Christ,  however, we understand what is written for our own edification and admonishment that all the verses quoted are speaking of enduring by abiding in Christ thru the Spirit.

I beleive what you were trying to point out, in your previous post with regard to OSAS, was that those who endured are rewarded  in the end with "salvation", insinuating that all of the unsaved who endured would be saved (please correct me if I am wrong).

While agreeing with you, that potentially this is true, we know (from scripture) that not all that endure to the end will be saved, and it is unbilical to make such a claim.

The passage you quoted can be scrutinized by looking it over,
Mat 24:8-13; and at verse 9, it becomes plain who are the ones who endure to the end.  

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9   Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

It is plain, this passage is speaking to the hears of this discourse, who are they??

Verse 1, tells us it was Jesus's disciples who are the hears of these things which he spoke concerning the end times.

So, we can then, say with assurance, ALL those who hear and do His words, are His disciples. And that is why, I pointed out to you, it is those who persevere by the Spirit, who in the end will be saved, not just those who endure, Consider Rev 16 these endured affliction by the plagues, from God and what do the scriptures say consider these. they "blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."  (vs 11)

So then we see that Calvinism, teaches that man is drawen, saved and kept, not by any power he possess, but by the same Spirit, which raised Jesus from the dead.

This is why, everyone who names the name of Christ can be assured they are secure in Him, it has nothing to do on their ability to keep themselves saved by keeping laws or ordinances.

This is the Good News of the Gospel, that we have been forgiven of ALL of OUR SINS.


1332  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 21, 2003, 10:28:52 PM
It makes no difference; what any man says;

Christians ought to listen to Jesus.

Jesus said,

37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Jhn 6:37,39-40)

Every person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, will be raised at the last day, whether they want to or not, what is sad, is they do not have that assurance today. This is Good News of the Gospel.

Mat 24
13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The endurance spoken of herein, is not physical endurance, and the only spiritual endurance any man can claim, is that of the Holy Spirit working in man and persevering in the end, not because any man wills IT, but because God wills I, AND HAS ORDAINED IT, since He is the one that calls all those whom he saves out of pit of death.

Rom 8
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Everyone whom God calls, He will in the end glorIfy, because Jesus will not lose ONE, OF whom God  gives unto Him.

"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."    (Jhn 10:28)
These are the words of assurance, for everyone who is saved.


1333  Theology / General Theology / Jesus, returns to rebuild the fallen Tabernacle of David on: April 21, 2003, 03:07:36 PM
Furthermore, Jesus is returning to this earth to establish His Kingdom (Lk 1:31-33) on the earth and to rule the nations with a rod of iron. (Rev 2:27)

1Chr 17
17:1  Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.
2  Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.
3  And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
4  Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
5  For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.
6  Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
7  Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8  And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9  Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10  And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD *(JESUS) will build thee an house. *(my emphasis)
11  And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12  He *(JESUS) shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.[/b]  *(my emphasis)
13  I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14  But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15  According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

The scriptures herein plainly teach, Christ is that son which is of the lineage of David, thru Nathan (son of David, 2Sam5:13-14, Lk 3:31) who will build the house of God on the earth and shall sit and reign forever and ever, in righteousness.

For Jehovah Witness's, this might be an interesting passage to consider, since the New World Translation,  says at;

1 Chr 17
9    And I shall certainly appoint a place for my people Israel and plant them, and they will indeed reside where they are and no more will they be distrubed; and the sons of unrighteousness will not wear them out again, just as they at the first.
10  even since the days that I put judges in command over my people Israel. And I shall certainly humble all your enemies.  And I tell you, 'Also a house Jevovah will build for you.

And David himself testifies;

27  For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
28  And now, O Lord GOD, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
29  Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.

And Solomon thought he was the one who would build that house.

2Chr 6
10  The LORD therefore hath performed his word that he hath spoken: for I am risen up in the room of David my father, and am set on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised, and have built the house for the name of the LORD God of Israel.

At verse 16, same chapter, he prays this;  ........O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.

After Solomons death, not one sat on the throne of David from his seed, it will happen when the Lord returns to reign and rule.

Clearly this passage of scripture is speaking of Jesus.

James, at the Council at Jerusalem, in Acts 15, speaks about this very thing;

13  And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14  Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15  And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16  After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17  That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18  Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Jesus, will return to this earth to fulfill this very prophecy  concerning Himself, and He will rule from that place as King over all the earth. (Zec 14:1-19)

Your attention is invited to verse;

Zec 8
23  Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Is this not the [/b]Emmaunel..of Mat 1:23.

Does anyone have more to add, to this??


1334  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 21, 2003, 01:48:10 PM

It sounds as though you have fighting your own Jihad (otherwise how could you know what others who are not your servants must do, or not do), this may be why, you are not able to continue in the discussion, since you acknowledge neither side is "totally correct" , so I suppose you would have us believe you have received special revelation, and you prepose to teach those who have errored.

I would suggest to you that you do not know what Calvinists teach at all and are not even qualified to comment on the the subject.

And that perhaps the problem isn't what others ought be doing, but what you presume to know and believe. I wouldn't be as outspoken about what others should do.  Other then study the word and ask guidance from above, most who disagree with Calvinism, have their own presuppositions and preconceived notions, un fortunatelymn thats all they are.

I am sure you are not God!

Blessings, to you anyhow..


1335  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Did Isaiah see jesus's glory? on: April 21, 2003, 12:54:19 PM
[quote the] piano boy
In john 12:41 the N.I.V bible says that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory in reference to Isaiah 6:10. The niv is the only translation that inserts the word "jesus". the king james version says that Isaiah saw his glory.

In the original greek text the word jesus is not mentioned in John 12:41. So is the niv a mistranslation? anti-trinitarians think so.

How do we know for sure that John 12:41 is talking about jesus? can someone help me?

the piano boy,

I think, you meant to cross reference Isa 6:1 with Jhn 12:41 above.

This vision Isaiah had is of Christ while reigning on the earth (note: Isa 6:3, "the whole earth is full of his glory."), during the millenial reign of Christ, when He will be King of all the earth (Zec 14:9).

Notice what Isaiah says he saw:
...for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. (Isaiah 6:5)

The following verses, connect Jesus as being that King The Lord of Hosts of the Old Testament the Redeemer Creator.

Isa 44
6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 51
15  But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name.

Isa 47
 4  As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

And then Zecariah while prophesying concerning Jesus return to earth reveals to us,  that it is He  (The Redeemer King The Lord of Hosts, who will rule from Jerusalem), Jesus himself, spoke of this time in Mathew 24 and Luke 21;

Zec 8
11  For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me .................
13  Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14  And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
22  Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23  Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Zec 14
7  But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10  All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11  And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13  And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14  And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15  And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17  And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

The prophet Jeremiah also, tells us this same JESUS is the creator God;

Jer 31
 35  Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

So it is plain to see Jesus, is The King, Redeemer, Creator, Lord of Hosts, God Almighty, spoken of and prophesied from old.

Israel rejected Him, and so do very many today, but it won't affect anything that has been foretold concerning Him one bit, just because He is rejected as God, won't affect the truth.

The Angels even proclaim his second coming to rule the earth;

Acts 1
11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


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