Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages

[2nd Timothy]

Wait a second...........hold everything...

I see, Rev 5:9-10, where the elders and beast are singing this song, but what makes you think they were made kings and priests in heaven??  after there deaths, John wrote this he was still living on the earth, and he uses the same language in the past tense.

Where do you see the word "shall" at verse 6,.

PLEASE......Look at the first six verses (especially Rev 1:5-7) closer, this is the opening PORTION OF THIS  letter written to  seven literal churches existing on the earth at the time this was written, the statement John makes is in the past tense "made us" at this verse ; he includes himself as a king and priest.................what about this?? look......

5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6  And [hath]made uss kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)


John is not in a trance, and he is not seeing any visions, as yet, when he wrote this,.  (I think you assume he is.......) as a matter of fact, he doesn't begin writing about"what he saw" until verse 8, which he reiterates at verse 10, after explaining the setting of the vision, in the opening verses.  

So it is clear it wasn't until he heard the voice of the Lord to write these things at verse 11, that John begins writing.

I have already addressed some of this above.  John wrote the whole thing Petro.  
He was instructed to write what he had already seen also.  I know he had greeting in the letter.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

        I know he is not in the spirit yet.    But never the less, he does see the 24 elders and 4 beasts in chapter 4 (future) who are already sitting on thrones wearing crowns.  We are told by John, that the chapter 4 event happens hereafter.   FUTURE!   What I was saying in my previous post, is that before the first horseman rides out, these individuals are seen in heaven and they are heard saying “we are made kings and priest” before the first seal had even been broken.

How do these become priest and kings before the throne of God, if they are not resurrected to the throne of God in order to take their thrones and crowns?   All happening before the first seal of judgment is broken!

They are the souls of men that were slain..who the beasts are is not clear to me, they appear to be men, maybe not.

Where does it say they are souls?   They have been redeemed by the blood, are sitting on their thrones wearing their crowns as if they have already been to the bema seat of Christ.   When did they receive their crowns?  They are also dressed in white linen!

If you are still speaking of Rev 6:9-11, you "cannot explain how there are two groups of believers", because, they are not, what indelibly links them together with  those of Rev 13:7-10, 14:12 and  20:4, is  the "white linen robes" which are given to them, and the elders words; these all came out of the great tribulation, according to Rev 7:14 and Rev 20:4, they all have white linen robes.  

I suspect that every believer ever entering heaven will have a white rob.   The point is, those on thrones in chapter 4 ARE wearing white robes, are observing, are singing and witness the breaking of the first seal as well as the rest….including the 5th where souls of those slain for the word of God.   Again….the 24 elders, the 4 beasts, John in the spirit, sees all this from heavens perspective.   How do you explain these 24 elders, which appear to be patriarchs (men) in heaven witnessing souls of those slain on earth due to judgment seals being broken by Christ?   Somebody from earth is already in heaven at that point.  Did they get by means of a rapture?  We have scripture that describes such an event.  Where do  you see scripture that says they are souls?  Show me a verse.   Those that are slain are GIVEN robes at that time.  John is in heaven with others described as wearing robes sitting on thrones, wearing crowns, watching the handing out of Robes to the slain.   I’m not making this stuff up here.  This is what John says he saw!

(I can almost here it already, the next argument will be whether their robes are linen, cotton some other synthetic fabric.)

"it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."  Rev 6:11

Note that those who are to be killed, as they [were],  are their fellowservants and brethren,

there is not two groups here, either..

I think you fellows, are letting your imaginations get the best of you....herein.

Petro,  there are people in the earth right now, that have yet to receive Christ.  Those who would receive Christ will become brothers and fellowservants will they not?   Whether that were to happen before or after a rapture event makes no difference.   They receive salvation due accepting Christ redemptive work on cross.   There is no question that this will take place during that terrible time.   The problem here is, you have individuals in heaven already wearing white robes, who all witness the breaking of the 5th seal which reveals martyrs who are then given their white robes.  Seperate groups with white robes.  One group in heaven, along with John in the spirit, and one group under the alter who were slain for their testimony.

I do not see, the wrath beginning until  Rev 6, the sixth seal begins the heavenly signs that precede His return, which men on the earth see, and are running around looking for the door to hide from the wrath which is coming, whether it is a day or a series of days is not clear to me, but I am inclined to believe it may be days, the day of the Lord begings with  a literal day when he returns to the world, but the signs could span days, this is not unbelieveable to me..this could be the case depending where the ring side seat is one holds.

This is why you are having difficulties explaining the 4 horsemen.   The first seal is the beginning of judgment, broken by the only one who was found worthy to pass judgment on man and earth.   To fit all the events described throughout Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and so forth into one day is very much a stretch.   There are specific wars that take place, famines that spread, pestilences that spread.   The judgments gradually get worse and worse.   Daniel and Revelation give specific days and months as time frames.   Not hours in a single day.

Pre Tribbers, have to remove the church and the Holy Spirit at (the weak sign of) the signing of the peace agreement, to make the theory,  work.  Unless it is obvious the man of sin, is a great religious leader, who is revealed at this signing, many will miss this sign.

To arbitraily separate, what is obviously the same group of servants and brethern for the sake of trying to prove something is deceptive in my opinion.

A world leader bent on conquest and speaking loud boastful things against the most high, will hardly be a weak sign.   You seem to be stuck on the fact that every mention of a white robe must be the bride.  What about the 24 elders seen wearing white before the first seal is broken?  Can’t have it both ways!

So, there you go, It appears it happens in everymans mind according to how he interprets scripture.

One has to allegorize what is not written, and this produces diferent results, of course I include myself, in this, since I am reading the same verses and I have an imagination also..

I say if one can't explain something,using the scriptures only, he ought not to even bring it up, it just muddy's the water, and besides how can one answer someone who says, I just have a feeling, I think or an opinion, maybe it is like this..................I say shore up the positions with Gods Word

You are welcome to your interpretation Petro.  I have no trouble seeing these things as they are written.   I see the main sticking point for you as how the church is removed, and then believers are killed for their testimony on earth, and, white robes grouping everyone together in one place or the other, where as I see the Church removed, and milli0ns coming to Christ because of the judgments being poured out on them.   The way you are explaining these verses, a rapture could not take place until the very end of Revelation where Christ is seen returning to earth in chapter 19, and omit the promise of escaping wrath, going to the fathers house where many mansions are, the blessed promise for the living (not the martyred),  why the 2 witnesses are doing the work that is suppose to be the churches, how the gates of hell are not only standing up, but falling outward to overcome the saints on earth.   Then you say you believe in a pre-wrath view, which would have to take place before chapter 6.    Now you tell me which version makes better sense and includes all the above.


Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

2d Tim posted as reply #314
I have already addressed some of this above. John wrote the whole thing Petro.
He was instructed to write what he had already seen also. I know he had greeting in the letter.

I have no idea where you addressed this, but if you take his salutation these first 8 verses, and include them in his visions while in a trance I can see, how you begin wondering off on the tangent as you do.

Of course once you do that, nothing else, will make sense from the perspective you see things, since you are already off the mark..

So, aside from the defining of the called  elect chosen saints, and the woman of Rev 12, this is probably the biggest hurdle, you have,  for trying to figure this one out.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I am not sure, if you are trying to connect this as your logical explanation for stating the first 7 verses are all a part of John's visions and so on, but it is clear to me, it is not.  

We are speaking specifically at this point, of Rev 1, and the verses that  precede the letter to the seven churches are Johns opening salutation which is not part of any vision, the instructions to write the following down to the 7 churches is given at verse 11.

I know he is not in the spirit yet.

If you are speaking of the first 7 verses I agree with you,  if you are speaking of verse 8 and onward,  then I would  say he is simply was writting the things he had  heard ( words at vs 9) the Lord said, and verse 10, gives the churches the setting of the writing of this letter.

But never the less, he does see the 24 elders and 4 beasts in chapter 4 (future) who are already sitting on thrones wearing crowns. We are told by John, that the chapter 4 event happens hereafter. FUTURE! What I was saying in my previous post, is that before the first horseman rides out, these individuals are seen in heaven and they are heard saying "we are made kings and priest" before the first seal had even been broken.

You don't know that?

After the resurrection of Jesus, all who die in Him, go to be with Him, this explains why they are in heaven clothed in robes, they are the spirits of men who had been declared righteous, proof of this is there white robes, no one enters heaven clothed in ther own rags of righteousness (Phil 3:8-9)

Look this not a mystery, when Stephen was before the sanhedrin, he looked "and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God," (Acts 7:55), this was in heaven according to Stephen, where Jesus is and where all spirits who die in Christ go to be unpon there deaths, (2 Cor 5:6-8, Eccl 12:7)

Zecariah 3:1-4, writes about this very thing concerning Joshua a high priest, who stood before The Angel of the Lord, and satan at His right hand, contending with The Angel of God (Jesus) for Joshua, note what Jesus said to satan;

2  The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3  Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4  And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

No doubt satan claims the bodies of all who die, but Jesus pleads His peoples case at the throne of Grace, the very words Jesus said "The Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee" to satan, makes one understand that God, was present presently.

The same thing occured when satan contended for the body of Moses, Gods annointed,  who had sinned against God in anger.

 Jude says at 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Where did this occur in the presence of God at the Throne of Grace, where Jesus defends His people day and night against the accusations of the accuser "which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:10)

We have an advocate that not only pleads our case when we sin, but also claims us, upon our death at the same throne. This is what our High Priest does presently and will continue doing until satan is cast out of heaven from the presence of God (Heb 8:1-2, Rev 12:1-17)

So I don't see what the problem is, they were there at the throne clothed in white robes, and there were others, this doesn't prove a Pre Trib raptur,e at all.
 
How does their saying they "are made kings and priests" at chapter 4, tie in with 1:6, it is clear to me, at  verse 6, of Rev 1 that Johns salutation, that he is,  the one making this statement;
6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; .................

As I pointed out, he includes himself, and claims it, herein..??

How do these become priest and kings before the throne of God, if they are not resurrected to the throne of God in order to take their thrones and crowns? All happening before the first seal of judgment is broken!

2d Tim,  Look......If you read Rev 4, there is nothing said about them becoming kings and priests, at all, you have got to quit assuming things, otherwise, we will never get anyplace, all John says is;

Rev 4
2   ...................and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, an d worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Where does it say they sat on thrones?:?

As I pointed out previously Jesus did promise the Apostles that they would reign in His kingdom (perhaps I didn't point this out clear enough for you in my previous post) with Him, and I was not able to tie, something as definitive for the OT patriarchs, but certainly it appears as thou they play a prominent role at the New Jerusalem.

What is clear at Lk 22; Jesus promises those who were at the passover feast and had been with Him, that they would reign in His kingdom.

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.  
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I fail to see that the 24 elders are sitting on thrones, Rev 4:4, does not say this at all; they are NOT sitting on thrones at all. Here is what it says;

4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

They are sitting , this I will agree with you, but it does not say they were thrones, on which they sat.........

At Luke 22:30, it does say they will "sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel", but at Rev 4:4 this is not evident, yet!...................neither is it supported from the language used.

You can see, that from this point on, everything you say, is based on an assumption, they are sitting on thrones.

Contd....................

[Petro]

In my opinin You read to much into this verse.  

Sometimes people want to see, what isn't there, such is the case here.  And, There is nothing said about them eating and drinking either.

There is a key verse which disputes the idea that the throne of Rev 4:4, is NOT the kingdom they are to reign at,  the Apostles were to reign on earth, upon His return,  note:

At the same passage; Jesus at the passover also said to the Apostles;

Lk 22
14  And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15  And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.  
17  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Note verse 18 carefully, it does not disagree with verse 16; it ends by stating "until the kingdom of God shall come."

This is understood to be future tense, and where is it to come??, to the earth, because the kingdom of God, was already in heaven,


Now allow me to point you to a verse which sets the order of this coming kingdom;

1 Cor 15
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25  For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet.
26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Verses 24 and 25, are speaking of God the Father reigning, until He hath put all enemies under His feet.

Under Jesus feet, then Jesus comes and subdues all things, conquering the last enemy death...and HE when He has subdued all things will himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Where does it say they are souls? They have been redeemed by the blood, are sitting on their thrones wearing their crowns as if they have already been to the bema seat of Christ. When did they receive their crowns? They are also dressed in white linen!

I have already pointed out they are not sitting on thrones, Rev 4:4, does not support this at ALL.

I suspect that every believer ever entering heaven will have a white rob. The point is, those on thrones in chapter 4 ARE wearing white robes, are observing, are singing and witness the breaking of the first seal as well as the rest….including the 5th where souls of those slain for the word of God.

You mean those sitting around the throne at Rev 4, ARE wearing white ............

Again….the 24 elders, the 4 beasts, John in the spirit, sees all this from heavens perspective. How do you explain these 24 elders, which appear to be patriarchs (men) in heaven witnessing souls of those slain on earth due to judgment seals being broken by Christ?

I don't understand what your driving at, the Apostles include John, He says nothing about seeing himself herein, he simply wrote what he saw. None of the 24 elders are excitedly asking questions, about these souls,  they know, where these came from, we are the ones speculating trying to figure this out.

All it says at the fifth seal, is "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:", this to me could include all the OT and NT saints at Heb 11, recognizing that there are others not even not listed, therein.  They are refered to as saints..Psa 27:38, 50:5, 116:15.

Psa 132
9  Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
16  I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

David was not of the tribe of Levi, yet, he entered into the Holy Place and took bread for His men,  on a Sabbath while running from King Saul, the only reason why he could have done it, without being judged of God, was because He was a priest, unto God under the order of Melchisedek of whom is Jesus our High Priest.

Somebody from earth is already in heaven at that point.

   
And besides it stand sot reason that,  if the four and twenty elders were in heaven at the throne (during the entire process), while these souls were being received into heaven coming out of the great tribulation, it would not be a mystery to them, they would all know where they came from, even the angels.  The breaking of the seal appears to be linked with time, the seal in heaven is broken but yet a multitude is seeing by John, this tells me, the breaking of the seal is like viewing one frame in a film, the previous frame where the fourth seal  was broken would be many back, if these were translated into days, it would counted in years, perhaps.  
 

Did they get by means of a rapture?

Who are talking about??  

The twelve apostles, if they make up 12 of the elders,
"Souls" (Rev 6:9)  #5590  the immortal souls, or the spirit

They were slaying on the earth, their souls ascended into heaven, if the bema seat is experienced upon entering heaven, (of which I am not altogether NOT sold on this theory)  then, this would explain your thought that, what John saw,  was men's souls in glorified bodies, I am not convinced this is what he saw, he doesn't  give any indictation they were not souls, (John himself was in the spirit, they were spirit, and thus the vision) neither does he say, they have glorified bodies  the case for the souls /spirits is much stronger, since we know men who die in Christ do not enter heaven in anything but a soul/spirit (see Eccl 12:7)

We have scripture that describes such an event. Where do you see scripture that says they are souls? Show me a verse.

I already did, Rev 20:4, you cannot deny, ALL these came out of the great tribulation, and these are the one and same of those at Rev 13:7-10, 14:12, 7:14, (included among them are those at Rev 20:4, are those of Rev 6:9) only if one is blind he cannot see that all these are numbered with those of Rev 20:4, and they are ALL eternal souls/spirits, is what John seeing.

continued...................

[Petro]

Those that are slain are GIVEN robes at that time. John is in heaven with others described as wearing robes sitting on thrones, wearing crowns, watching the handing out of Robes to the slain. I'm not making this stuff up here. This is what John says he saw!

You keep assuming they are sitting on thrones, it only shows, how greatly you rely on this one point, to make your theory work.

The problem as I see it, is that somehow or other, just because John wasn't there to see, when or how these elders received  their robes and crowns, somehow you see  this multitude spoken of at Rev 20:4, as not being part of the church, and arbitrarily exclude those who are church saints, I tell you again, the souls of those at Rev 6:9 were told to
"wait a little season,, until their fellowservants and brethern, should be killed, just as they were, should be fulfilled."

THIS IS WHAT INDELIBLY LINKS THESE OF  REV 6:9 TO ALL OF THE OTHERS...there is no difference between them, they were referred to as saints on the earth at Rev 13:7-10, Rev 14:12.

Petro, there are people in the earth right now, that have yet to receive Christ.

Those who would receive Christ will become brothers and fellowservants will they not?

Ansolutely,.......................That will make them called chosen elect saints, won't it??

If so, are they members of the church, the body of Christ??

Whether that were to happen before or after a rapture event makes no difference. They receive salvation due accepting Christ redemptive work on cross. There is no question that this will take place during that terrible time. The problem here is, you have individuals in heaven already wearing white robes, who all witness the breaking of the 5th seal which reveals martyrs who are then given their white robes. Seperate groups with white robes. One group in heaven, along with John in the spirit, and one group under the alter who were slain for their testimony.

You are confused...

There are the 24 elders, and four beasts, plus.............the souls of those under the alter, (who are told to wait, wait for what?, for the brethern to be killed, just as they were)
and then John sees them all standing at Rev 7:14, and are given "white robes just as the first group was. I can almost visialize them all, as one group, no difference between them at all.

As I explained before the white robes represent the righteousness of the saints (Rev 19:, and whether you accept this or not, it matters little, the robes also are the wedding garments.

If there is any passage of scripture which might support a separate body of believers and those envited to the wedding feast it might be  found at Mat 22:1-14, however I would not to be to quick to run and make assumptions, because the biggest problem we will encounter with that notion is what

Ephesians 2:15 says;,

"to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;" this is clearly speaking of the Body of Christ.

petro said;
do not see, the wrath beginning until Rev 6, the sixth seal begins the heavenly signs that precede His return, which men on the earth see, and are running around looking for the door to hide from the wrath which is coming, whether it is a day or a series of days is not clear to me, but I am inclined to believe it may be days, the day of the Lord begings with a literal day when he returns to the world, but the signs could span days, this is not unbelieveable to me..this could be the case depending where the ring side seat is one holds.

2d tim replies
This is why you are having difficulties explaining the 4 horsemen. The first seal is the beginning of judgment, broken by the only one who was found worthy to pass judgment on man and earth. To fit all the events described throughout Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and so forth into one day is very much a stretch. There are specific wars that take place, famines that spread, pestilences that spread. The judgments gradually get worse and worse. Daniel and Revelation give specific days and months as time frames. Not hours in a single day.

I don't buy that explanation, if your saying that the day of warth begins at the first seal, you have to reconcile, 1 Th 4:15-17,  2 Th 2:3,  to this theory and base it on  scriptures and thus far you and Paul2 have failed to do so.

You haven't even defined who the saints are  and whether they are the church or not, ALL NT saints are the church for sure, as I see it, if you ever get around to considering this, you might want to look at Dan 7:23, this may illuminate this matter, somewhat for you.

petro said'Pre Tribbers, have to remove the church and the Holy Spirit at (the weak sign of) the signing of the peace agreement, to make the theory, work. Unless it is obvious the man of sin, is a great religious leader, who is revealed at this signing, many will miss this sign.

To arbitraily separate, what is obviously the same group of servants and brethern for the sake of trying to prove something is deceptive in my opinion.

reply by 2d tim,
A world leader bent on conquest and speaking loud boastful things against the most high, will hardly be a weak sign. You seem to be stuck on the fact that every mention of a white robe must be the bride.

I only agree with half of your statement as a sign which would reveal the man of sin;

speaking loud boastful things against the most high

Because this is the only unmistakable sign, preceded by a world wide apostasy which would reveal him, according to 2 Th 2:3, and it is clear at 2 Th 2:3, that, the day of Christ, cannot come unless these two signs occur first, in order.  The apsotasy  first followed by the revelation of the son of perdition.

You got it backwards, Paul2, has no apsotasy at all, in his theory.

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (that day is the day mentioned at vs 2), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What about the 24 elders seen wearing white before the first seal is broken? Can't have it both ways

cont'd...................

[Petro]

Jesus said;

Mat 12
 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

These are not risen souls/spirits yet What makes you think they are??.
Look at Rev 20:, it begings with John saying;  
1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having a key .................................... this vision is on the earth, then note;
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

he first resurrection are those who live and reign with Christ, this includes all those he brings with Himself at His appearing.

What about it??, everyone that is saved has been invited to a wedding feast, and according to Jesus at His parable they all received a wedding garment, it is not unreasonably to understand from the account of  Mat 22, that the garment was handed out as the wedding guest arrive, and remember the white robes are the righteousness of the saints :, there is nothing which supports that if they didn't posses robes, they would be walking around as naked bodies.

I don't lose sleep, over this, when Jesus died the graves were opened Mat 27:52-53 and many siants arose,the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many..whether they arose into the heavens We do not know.

You are welcome to your interpretation Petro. I have no trouble seeing these things as they are written.

Yes you do, since you, that is why you and Paul2 add words, to what is written..........you fill in where you are not sure..You may not see this but it is true. This is why it seems as thou your theory is all figured out.

I see the main sticking point for you as how the church is removed,

No,  you don't  "how the church is removed" is not the problem with me; but when the church is removed is, I don't agree with your theory, necessarily, and no one has made the case here yet, that it is removed at the beginning of the tribulation....the more we  keep posting the less evident it is to me, what I see, is a lot of specualting going on..on your part..


 

and then believers are killed for their testimony on earth, and, white robes grouping everyone together in one place or the other, where as I see the Church removed, and milli0ns coming to Christ because of the judgments being poured out on them. The way you are explaining these verses, a rapture could not take place until the very end of Revelation where Christ is seen returning to earth in chapter 19, and omit the promise of escaping wrath

That is nonsense, I already stated, when I believed the wrath begins, you may not have read my post, but it is nowhere  near Rev 19.
And besides the promise is, that WE are  to be kept from the hour of  temptation, not "escape" wrath.  Escaping and being kept from it are not exactly the same thing.
Lk21:35-36, cannot be split and separated, verse 36 is to be seeing in the light of verse 35, the snare that comes unawares, is that deception which cause the apostasia and comes on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth, who have not received the love of the truth, then comes the Day of the Lords return.

, going to the fathers house where many mansions are, the blessed promise for the living (not the martyred), why the 2 witnesses are doing the work that is suppose to be the churches, how the gates of hell are not only standing up, but falling outward to overcome the saints on earth. Then you say you believe in a pre-wrath view, which would have to take place before chapter 6. Now you tell me which version makes better sense and includes all the above.

It is clear to me, You have no idea what the pre wrath view entails, if what you are explaining is the wrath of God, then the pre wrath view, sees the church being raptured prior to it.
Somehow you confuse, tribulation with wrath, there is no wrath until the vials begin being poured out at Rev 16, however, it is clear to me this could coincide with the first trump, or the seventh seal. The fifth and sixth seals I see as signs of His impending return, Jesus spoke of this time, when He said;    

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
So from the time of the signs to the begining of His wrath, there is a lull in the world setting while God seals the 144,000, and other things happen. the rest of  seals are executed.
The hour of testing that comes upon the whole world, to test them that dwell upon it (Rev 3:10), is not wrath, but deception, brought on by the man of sin, this is the great sign the precedes the revelation of the son of perdition. NASB, uses the word testing in place of temptation, Both signs are very important, since they precede His return.

The key verse you use as a proof text for a Pre Trib rapture, is both of these Rev 3:10, and 1 Th 5:9

1 Th 5
9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Unfortunately one speaks of  testing/trials, while the other speaks of wrath.  There is quite a difference between these words and their meanings, from this confusing interpretation, an huge elaborate doctrine has been built. on which many have hung there hope, instead of doing the work we have been called to do,  they,  just count the days.  This is not biblical...
Wrath is of God, deception is from the evil one, the hour of temptation is thre same as the hour of trials or deception, that will come upon the whole world.
2 Th 2                                                                                                                                                  10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is the great deception.


Blessings,  
Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Concerning the Crown of  Life;

.
James 1
12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Now, don't jump to conclusions, read the next verses; (you left these out, and this is why, you misterpret verse 12.)

13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This temptation spoken of at verse 12, is not of God, and therefore is key, to understanding;

One question here. Does it not say that everyman is tempted in verse 14?   This is not all inclusive to only those living at the time events in Revelation happens Petro.   Revelation is clearly a special time of temptation that is going to come upon the world.   While the principle still applies, you are forcing this passage into that time frame, limiting it to Saints  of Revelation.

Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This word is defined as adversity, testing, trial, not wrath

Again, we cannot lose sight of the keys for interpreting Revelation.  These Churches are addressed BEFORE what takes place hereafter.  It is not clear to me that they are present later on as they are never mentioned again during the judgments.

Pre Tribbers interpret Rev 3:10, as wrath, how come you, do this???

The wrath God has promised to keep His children from (1 Th 5:9), is not at all the same word temptation of Rev 3:10, and since He does not tempt anyone with evil, (Jas 1:13), this cannot be His Wrath.

This particular temptation is obviously what is about to happen hereafter, and is particular as it has an hour or a time.  Every man is tempted throughout life when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed according to the passage in James.  This would explain why so many will refuse to repent during the coming events, perhaps being lead astray by the antichrist.  Either way, the church is promised to be kept from the hour due to their patience, which is coming upon all the world.  All without any mention of wrath.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Now notice that this Crown is not only reserved to them that love Him and endure temptation, but is also given to;

Rev 2
10  ............................... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Now you with others, will claim this is not a promise given to the church as a whole, but, only to the church at Smyrna..............this is another error...

Again you are forcing this temptation into the time frame limited to Revelation.  Every man that has ever lived has to endure tempation throughout life as a believer.  So all those men will also receive a crown will they not?  You are saying it like, only those who endure that particular hour of temptation coming in Revelation are the only ones who will receive a crown.   I don't see this at all.

There is two things which can be said about this Crown, it shall be given to All who have been declared righteous, by the Lord at His appearing.

So there you have it, Crowns are not given when the souls of men enter heaven, there appears to be an exception with the 24 elders (they certainly possess Crowns, but they are not seated on thrones), and thus, the reason why those at Rev 6:9-11, do not possess crowns, however these souls of martyrs, are given white robes to wear, until their brethern should be killed as they were.

Why is there an exception?  You have been eager to point out presumptions on my part, and yet you yourself seem to make pressumptions there is an exception with those 24 elders wearing crowns.  Crowns are given out at the appearing of Christ if we go by scripture.   To me it stands to reason that those 24 had witnessed an appearing of Christ prior to being seen by John in the spirit at chapter 4:4.   No mention of thronos, lawn chairs, or wrath.  They are seen by John wearing gifts that is said by scripture to be handed out at the appearing of Christ.   This can only suggest one thing my friend.  Thessalonians 4:16 has likely taken place before Rev 4:4, otherwise, how do we explain how John describes them?

As you can see I do believe in the giving out of Crowns, but I just differ with you as to when they are given out.

In my feeble mind, I am unable to understand this perfectly (like the trinity), my mind tells me these Crowns are really one in the same, but at the same time, my logical reasoning, tells me there are problems with this thought.  So until, more light comes I accept it as written.

Trust me, I feel your frustration.  I feel the same way about a post trib debate.   God gave us a glimpse of what is going to take place at the end through Johns writing.  Things which our worldly minds have trouble with in regards to visions of heaven.   There is no question in my mind that these things will be debated until they happen.   I am faithful that God has it under control and knows what is best for his Church.  While I don't claim to have all the answers regarding a pre-trib view, I still see it agreeing more with scripture than other timings.   I could be wrong, but I cling to my faith, and my God who is not wrong.  He will see me through whatever transpires.  This much I know for certain!

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

2nd Tim: John says they are redeemed men, wearing white robes and crowns.  
 
Petro: He says those at Rev 6:9-11, were the souls of men, and they also were given white robes, and of course they had no Crowns.

You desire to see, men with bodies when speaking fo the 24 elders, but it ain't there, sorry..

Let me try this one more time.  First of all, this has nothing to do with anyones desire.  The scripure speaks for itself.  Those at 4:4 are wearing crowns and white robes.   I will even concede the thronos here in order to make it plainer for you.   They the 24, and John in the spirit "witness" the breaking of the seals.  At the 5th seal 6:9 they (the 24 and John) see the SOULS of them under the alter.   Can you see what I am saying here?   The souls are not the 24 that are seen in heaven wearing white robes and crowns.   This is not hard to see here....they are the ones that said the Lamb was the only one worthy to open the seals.  They did not then go back to earth to be martyred at the 5th seal.   Two groups!  Some in heaven, some on earth.  Those on earth get martyred.  Those in heaven are already wearing white robes and crowns.  When do redeemed men  receive their crowns?  At the Lords appearing.  Those that were martyred did not receive crowns.  This is not forcing anything, or directed by any desire.  This is all plain scripture here.

Only you can see what you see, I don't see it.

If 12 of these are the Apostles souls in the presence of God, they are members of the Body of Christ, that is clear to me.

petro said;
I am using the same logic you use in trying to force thrones for the elders at Rev 4:4. Is not this seat where Satan dwelleth at Rev 2:13, (he is not omnipresent,)afterall, the word, means a stately seat, potentiate, throne in relation to what??

2d tim replies;
Rev 2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is

Where?  Where this church dwells.  This is the location of Satans seat.  If this is your only defense about the thrones, I don't think its a good one.  However, as I have already said, my argument is fine without thronos.   There is no getting around that those 24 elders are wearing white robes, and crowns, are redeemed men, and their close proximity to the Gods throne is relevant to their importance in heaven at this time well before the martyrs at the fifth seal.

Lets face it you simply will not recant, that these are not sitting on thrones, your wasting your breath, from here on.

Time for me, to ignore your argument. Lets move on.





Blessings, Petro

[2nd Timothy]

I am glad you posted this answer, where are the living Saionts then??

And why doesn't John mention them, at Revelation 19??

Isn't it because they are not in  heaven but on the earth??

Petro

How many times do I have to say this friend.   The 24 elders are alive redeemed men wearing crowns and white robes.  John never describes them as souls, as he does those souls under the alter.   They have crowns, and as we know, crowns are given at the appearing of the Lord.   RAPTURE!

Chapter 19
Rev 19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2  For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:4  And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5  And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6  And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

How many references do you need of people living in heaven in this chapter before you will actually believe it?  Theres so many here its not even funny.

1. A great voice of much people....IN HEAVEN!
2. 24 Elders and the four beast...all of which call themselves redeemed.
3. The wife, making herself ready, wearing white!
4.  A fellow servant that John fell down to worship who says, he is a fellow bretheren of the testimony of Jesus
5.  The armies of heaven wearing white linen white and clean.


I could build a case for pre-trib rapture on this chapter alone!

Only you can see what you see, I don't see it.

If 12 of these are the Apostles souls in the presence of God, they are members of the Body of Christ, that is clear to me.

I don't know what to say anymore Petro.  When do souls receive crowns?  Are they received at death, or are they received at Christs appearing?

Lets face it you simply will not recant, that these are not sitting on thrones, your wasting your breath, from here on.

Time for me, to ignore your argument. Lets move on.

The seats or thronos as they are called in the original greek is non relevant to a pre-trib case as I have shown.  Call them whatever you want....it matters not to what I am showing here.    I can't stop you from ignoring me, but don't ignore scripture because it disagrees with your theories.  Neither one of us get any brownie points for winning debates or anything here.   The whole point is to seek truth.  We can disagree!  I have no problem with that.   I am not the only one here that sees a pre-trib rapture.   Its not like I'm a lone pistol trying to pervert scripture.   Pre-trib Rapture makes sense, it agrees with enormous scripture.   I have yet to hear anyone else here make a case (with the exception of Joel) for any other view.   Everyone seems to take pot shots at pre-trib views and ignore when it stands up to scrutiney.

I truely do love you guys!  Its my prayer that God will open all of our hearts and eyes to the truths in his word regarding this.

Grace and Peace be with you!

[Paul2]

The prophecy of Isaiah is just that, a prophecy, and thou there is a split at verse 2, which is not evident as written,  it is only brought to light because the Lord Himself quotes it, and states what is fulfilled a certain day, Luke 4:17-21.

But what scriptures do you use to, create the t i m e split between Lk  21:35 and 36??

     I use Luke verse 36 itself!

Luke 21:36: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy  to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

    "All these things that SHALL COME TO PASS".

It is clear to me, that your viewpoint is errousneous, concerning the word apostasia, that alone raise major red flags for me, and prevents me from accepting anything you say beyond this point at face value.

You have failed to address this error..and have ignored attempts at trying to reconcile the scriptures at this point.

The interpretation of this word in the way you use it, is a rather new, and  novel, it does not do the Word justice, and this interpretation is a major departure from the understanding of this word, and the latter days.

    I offered a possible interpretation, something to consider. I was giving the interpretation of Dr. J. Vernon McGee of the "Thru the Bible" radio program. Apparently you would not accept anything he has ever said at face value either, for I was quoting him.

1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Show me the 1900 year gap you see..

     The only time gap I mentioned was in Isaiah 61:2 between the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengence.

                                                             Paul2

[Paul2]

Revelation 5:8: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

    The 24 elders are acting as priests in the above verse. The prayers of Tribulation Saints are now going through the 24 elders acting as priests.

    The picture becomes more and more clear. Petro doesn't like what he sees but that doesn't change anything.

    I'm amazed at how people will attack an interpretation which is being presented, but fail to offer an alternative interpretation with as much detail as the interpretation they attack.

    What do we know about Petro's interpretation? Not much! Why? I wish I knew!

    The effect of the 6th vial destroys Petro's interpretation. He states that the Wrath of God is in the 7 vials. He states that the Wrath begins at the Second Coming. Problem is that the 6th vial makes the second Coming possible. The kings and armies of the east must have the way prepared for them by the 6th vial. The Euphrates river must dry up to allow the kings of the east to cross over it to Jerusalem. Why don't they just use a bridge? Because an army of 200 million is going to cross the river, talk about a bottleneck traffic jam!

    Until the worlds armies are gathered at Armeggedon Christ will not return to the earth. The 6th vial makes it possible for the armies of the world to be gathered. This means the effect of the 6th vial must take effect before the Second Coming. This means the Wrath of God is being poured out before the Second Coming. Petro can not accept this fact because his interpretation does not allow the wrath of God to occur before the Second Coming. Talk about putting the cart before the horse!

    Christ can not return to the earth until the effect of the 6th vial has prepared the way for the kings of the east and all the armies of the world are gathered to Israel around Jerusalem for the battle of Armeggedon. For Petro's theory to work, the Church must be Raptured before the effects of the 7 vials take place, but Petro believes the Church will be raptured the same day as the Second Coming so the effects of the vials must take effect the same day as the Rapture and second Coming.

    Seems the scenario would go like this:

    The Church is Raptured, moments later the effect of the 7 vials are poured out on the earth. The Euphrates dries up, and Kings and armies of the east race across the Middle east to arrive in Jerusalem within 24 hours. an army of 200 Million
cross the middle east in a single day and are in formation around Jerusalem within 24 hours of the Rapture. The Second Coming of Christ occurs within 24 hours of the Rapture.

   That is not a possibility! Theres no way the effect of the 6th vial and Second Coming of Christ can occur on the same day. The 6th vial prepares the way, that is to say makes it possible for the kings of the east to cross the dried up Euphrates. It is not possible to move a 200 million man army from China to Jerusalem in one 24 hour day! The Wrath of God must begin prior to the day of the Second Coming.

   Only when you place the Rapture and the Second Coming on the same day, you must ignore the obvious. The theory falls apart. You paint yourself into a corner when you make the Rapture and Second Coming the same day and place the beginning of the wrath of God that same day. Something is wrong. The wrath cannot begin on the day of the Second Coming. To try to fit all the effects of the 7 vials into one single day is not possible.

    Seeing Petro has made it his mission to attack the Pre-Trib. Rapture interpretation I will begin to attack the Pre-wrath interpretation. I believe I have addressed a major flaw of the pre-wrath interpretation. The Rapture and Second Coming and the 7 vials of wrath cannot all occur on the same single day. If anyone thinks they can please explain it to me.

     I would like to see the 7 vials of the Wrath of God layed out in sequence with the Rapture and the Second Coming. The Rapture must come before the effects of the 7 vials which are the wrath of God. Therefore the Rapture must take place and then the 7 vials poured out upon the earth. When does the Second Coming occur? Within 24 hours of the Rapture? Am I to understand that the wrath of God occurs within a single 24 hour period?

    When the 7 vials are poured out Scripture mentions that nobody repented. When would they have had time to repent if plague after plague came upon them in a single day?


                                                       Paul2

[Petro]

Paul2

You cannot analyze anything, unless first you establish facts, as the basis for building an anylitical foundation.

What are you going to analyze, anything I say, with, your own hypothetical presuppositions??

I see no reason to continue, because both you and 2d Tim, have taken scripture and twisted words to the point of invalidating established facts.

Apostasia, is the same word used, to define APOTASY, and it is,................ exactly that, ..............................it is not "the RAPTURE".

You have entrenched yourself, into your own world of words which mean different things to you, so nothing you explain from that point on, will carry any weight, since, as I see, it you and I are on different wave lengths, and will never agree, you have the rapture occuring before the signs, which announce the return of Christ, these are very significant to the believer.

The prophet Jude, writes of these things;

3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Note how we are to conduct ourself during this time of apostasy;

20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

We are called to continue on in the faith, building each other up, having compassion and making a difference even pulling some from the verge of the precipes, who find themselves ready to fall into the flames of the apostasy,
these we are to save with strong, resolute warnings, and instruction,s hating even their garments defiled by the flesh.

I ask how does focusing on a rapture allow us to do this, if we knew when the Lord will return and it is in troublesome times, we would not even care about others, but we would tend to ourselves, this is why the Lord says , "no man knoweth the time neither the hour, not even the angels in heaven, but my Father"



Continuing with Jude..................,and the doom of the apostates as foretold by Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam.  It is a prophecy that is found only in Jude's epistle. Some believe it is taken by the Book of Enoch, but there is no evidence that that spurious book even existed in the time of Jude.

While we do not know , how Jude learned of this ancient prophecy, a simple and plausible explanation is that the Holy Spirit revealed the words to him, just as He revealed and guided all that is written in the other epistles.

Nevetheless, it is a major sign not for unbelievers but, for believers, remember the scripture are written for our edification, firstly, that we might be conforted and stand assured of these things, that will come to pass.

The apostasy, followed by the revelation of the Man of Sin, followed by the appearing of our Saviour.

In your scenario, you have the rapture first, followed by the revelation of the Son of Perdition, and then the appearing of the Lord at the mid tribulation, yet you call yourself a Pre Trib'st, ..................

When does the apostasy occur??


Or, is there one in your theory??

It is bad enough, the language of Revelation is such that, one has a dificult time, trying to tie all the lose ends together without people adding to what is written, for the sake of proving a point.

On the otherhand, it does not help when the third party (2d Tim,) insists that the 24 elders are ressurected men, just because they are wearing crowns an seated around the throne of God, in John's vision, if they are resurrected, then ALL who sleep in Christ, must also be resurrected, yet it is obvious not all are, since there are souls of some who are not, evidenced by Rev 4:4.  

But in the scenario of the rapture according to 1 Th 4:16,  "the dead in Christ shall rise first:"  any NT Saint who dies in Christ, whether it be during the tribulation or before the tribulation, sleeps in Christ.  There is no scripture given which contradicts this at all, yet you and 2d Tim, separate them.

How can you do this??  

Only because you take liberties with the Word of God, thats why.............


In trying to come to some understanding of these things I even got caught up in your theory hrying to expalin, who these elders,are, when it is clear we can only surmise, and assume.

The fact is, we cannot know with certainty who the 24 elders are.

We can speculate that they are understood to be as angelic beings, as the redeemed people of both the OT and NT, ans as NT Saints only.  If we assume this to be so, then we can begin building  and expanding a theory, as has happened here, causing 2d Tim, to be swept away, by claiming with certainty they are redeemed men, sitting on thrones, which extended further, would make them as judges judging in the heavenlies..............and on and on  we can go.....

This is why, I do not see, any reason to continue, we are already, heading out into left field with this, because we keep heaping theory upon theory, and tying them together with presumptions and speculations, we have already missed the mark as I see it.

So why waste time, going nowhere??


Blessings,
Petro

[Paul2]

   Petro,

   I wasn't going "nowhere", I am beginning to bring to light the Wrath of God. It is impossible for the wrath of God to place in the time frame you have allowed for it to be placed.

   You have never directly answered my questions of when the effects of the 7 vials take effect on earth according to your interpretation so I must try to figure out where you place the wrath by the little information you have provided.

   It appears you have the Rapture of the Church taking place the same day as the Second Coming. This would mean that the wrath of God takes place during that same day. That is not possible but thats what it seems you believe will happen.

   Forget my interpretation, I want to focus on your interpretation. You have been attacking the Pre-Tribulation interpretation for months. The thread you decided to do your attacking on is my thread. For months you have tried to disprove the Pre-Tribulation Rapture interpretation which we have all allowed you to do. I've indulged you in your attempt to discredit the Pre-Tribulation interpretation without ever trying to stop you. I've been watching to see how you interpret things carefully. You never get into details of your Pre-Wrath theory so it took time to figure out just what you believe. I've now seen enough of your theory to spot flaws which I now want to address.
 
    I've put up with your attacks on my interpretation on my thread for months. I know you don't understand the way I present things and why. I'm now attempting to show you why. Your theory does not hold up when all Scripture is used on your theory.

    You keep saying that we've built a doctrine around a few verses of Scripture, you are wrong, the doctrine is built around using ALL the Scriptures. You don't believe that so the easy way to show you is to disprove your theory. Your theory has serious flaws which you never address. If you won't address them then I will, with you or without you. I have allowed you to constantly attack the Pre-Tribulation interpretation and now I feel that I have earned the right to go on the offensive against the Pre-Wrath position you hold.

   Perhaps when it is discovered that the Pre-Wrath interpretation has unresolvable conflicts which can not be overcome the Pre-Tribulation interpretation will begin to make some sense to you or others who believe as you do.

   The Pre-Wrath interpretation that I've been able to piece together from your limited details provide enough information to make the case that the interpretation has serious flaws that can not be reconciled. Over and over I've asked for you to put into perspective When the Wrath of God begins, when the effect of the 7 vials take effect on earth in relation to the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming. You haven't answered me. Thats your choice not to answer and my choice is to make the case against the Pre-Wrath interpretation being possible. The biggest mistake of your interpretation is having the Rapture of the Church occur the same day as the Second Coming which is impossible. It is impossible because you must fit the wrath of God into a single day. The Wrath can not begin until the Church is Raptured, which is a fact you agree with. Christ returns at the end of Daniel's 70th week and ends the 42 month reign of the Beast. Somehow you must fit the whole wrath of God into one single day which is impossible.

    I've given you time to present your interpretation on these things but you have chosen to continue your attack of the Pre-Tribulation interpretation rather than to shed light on your interpretation. I'll shed some light on the flaws I've seen with your interpretation. I've earned that right by indulging your attacks on my interpretation. It doesn't matter if you want to ignore this thread from now on or not, I'm going on the offensive now. Anyone who reads back through the posts can see that you have been doing the attacking and 2nd Timothy, Tom and myself have indulged you and tried to answer your numerous questions. Bottom line is your convinced we are wrong, well bottom line is I'm convinced you are wrong and I'm going to attempt to prove that you are wrong.

    Forget my interpretation which you constantly argue against. I'm not going to use my interpretation, I'm going to show the flaws contained within your Pre-Wrath interpretation. The Pre-wrath interpretation has flaws contained within the Pre-Wrath interpretation itself. It will take a little time to lay out all the evidence but I'm making it my mission. Perhaps when you see that your own interpretation is destroyed by Scripture you will be more willing to consider an alternative interpretation. Now I will have some fun, as I've said before, its much easier to attack an interpretation than to present one. I look forward to the challenge of disproving the Pre-Wrath interpretation.

   Petro, its up to you whether you want to defend your interpretation or not, it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm going to analize the flaws I've seen anyway for the benefit of those who read these posts. After months of defending my interpretation on my thread I feel I have been more than patient and now I wish to go on the offensive, which I am now beginning to do.

   No hard feelings on my part towards you but I'm tried of being on defense, sometimes the best defense is a strong offense.

                                                     Paul2

   

[2nd Timothy]

I see nothing wrong with a passionate disscussion guys.   But lets try to keep this from becomming a personal grudge match here.   I understand that we may differ in our understanding of Christs return, but I do not wish to get into hurling personal insults at one another (I'm not accusing anyone of this either; just worried thats where we are headed).   We CAN do this in love even if we heatedly dissagree can we not?  I find a lot of this aggrivating too, but I have no desire to form ill feelings toward any of my bretheren because we cannot agree on a very difficult study.   Be passionate, even disagree if need be, but do it all in Love, lest hatred and pride creep into our hearts.   I fear this more than I fear being wrong about rapture timing.

Grace and Peace!

[Paul2]

    Problems I see with the Pre-Wrath Rapture Part 1

    First let me start with this: From Petro's interpretation  the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church takes place on the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. From what I've read of Petro's posts he believes the Rapture occurs the very same day as the Second Coming. Petro, if I am getting this wrong please tell me because this is what I believe you have said.

    If the Rapture of the Church were to take place the same day as the Second Coming I see problems which I will address.

   If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth. If that is the case then the Church has also experienced the Great Tribulation on earth, the reign of the Antichrist and also the mark of the Beast which is very important to keep in mind. If this is the case, that the Church has been on earth for Daniel's 70th week and experienced the Mark of the Beast it can be concluded that all who are to be Raptured refused the mark of the Beast. This would leave only those who are eternally lost with the mark of the Beast left on earth at the Rapture. The Wrath of God will be poured out after the Rapture of the Church on a Christ rejecting world.

    If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth). After the wrath of God is poured out upon the Christ rejecting world Jesus Christ will come to the earth to establish His kingdom. By placing the Rapture of the Church on the same day as the Second Coming it would stand to reason that all the Saved would be Raptured and all the lost would remain on the earth for the wrath of God. Later in the day Christ would visibly return to the earth and conclude Daniel's 70th week. The prophecy given in Zechariah 14 will take place when the Lord returns to earth to touch down on the mount of Olives. The only people left on the earth  should be those who received the mark of the beast and all those who were lost at the time of the Rapture hours before. We learn that those who experience the Wrath of God do not repent, therefore we can conclude that those upon the earth at the time of the second Coming of Christ to the earth are all lost or they would have been Raptured hours earlier if both events happen on the same day.

    Considering the possiblity of the above scenario the conclusion I see would be that all the saved would have been Raptured and the lost would remain on earth for the wrath of God. People do not repent during the Wrath of the 7 vials, so the only people on earth at the time of the Second Coming would be those who received the mark of the beast and the lost. All those who are saved, the living and the dead would be resurrected at the Rapture according to this scenario.

  Here comes the first problem I see. If all those who are saved are Raptured the same day as the second Coming then all the saved should have immortal bodies at that point.

   Now lets look at a few verses of Scripture:

Revelation 20:7: "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
   8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
   9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

    From the above verses of Scripture we see that the nations of the earth will be tested again by Satan leading a rebellion and the nations will be gathered again to attack Jerusalem at the end of the millenium.

    These who are tested again by Satan's rebellion can not be resurrected Saints. These who are tested are still mortal and still able and willing to rebel against God. Obviously these who are tested can fail the test and be sent to the lake of fire. They obviously were not Raptured but remained alive until the Second Coming and entered the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How is this possible if the rapture of the Church took place hours before the Second Coming? Remember that during the 7 vials of the wrath of God Scripture states that nobody repented. How did natural men enter the millenium in unresurrected bodies?

   This does not make sense. If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth and nobody repented during the 7 vials all who remained on earth should have been the lost who denied Christ and accepted the mark of the beast. There should be nobody left to survive and enter the millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How can there be people who will be tested by Satan after the 1000 years of the millenium have ended when Satan is released to seduce the nations one more final time? There can't be!

    The Rapture of the Church must occur before the Second Coming and the wrath of God to allow people time to repent and come to faith in Christ and enter the millenium alive in natural unresurrected bodies.

   I'll be adding on to these points in my next posts. I just getting started.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

  The above verses are refering to the millenium. These spoken of above were not Raptured resurrected Saints. These are the survivors and the children of survivors of the Great Tribulation that entered the millenium in natural bodies but have had the curse of sin removed from them but death is still a possibility. These spoken of are not immortal yet. These are the survivors of the Great Tribulation that will be tested by Satan at the end of the millenium.[/color]

                                                            Paul2




   

[Paul2]

   On my last post I started to explain that during the Millenium there will be people who will remain in natural bodies that can die and also be tested by Satan when he is released from his prison. Those who choose to follow Satan in his final rebellion will be cast into the lake of fire with him after the Great White Throne Judgement.

   Anyone who was Raptured will receive their immortal body, they can not be tested by Satan or ever fall from Grace.

1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
   17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."[/color]

   The above verses make it clear that those who are Raptured will be with the Lord forever with no chance of losing Salvation. They will become immortal at the Rapture.

    In the verse below we will see the fate of the Martyred Tribulation period Saints.

Revelation 20:4: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
   5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
   6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

   The martyred Tribulation period Saints will be Resurrected and reign with Christ for the 1000 year Millenium, the Second Death has no power over them because they have been Resurrected and can not be tested by Satan and fall.

    Tribulation period Saints who survive the Great Tribulation will enter the Millenium as unresurrected mankind, and will be tested by Satan and sadly many will choose to follow his rebellion after 1000 years of Christ's Reign. People hate rules now, just wait until Christ is reigning and there still in mortal bodies, many will grow weary of Christ"s Rule and be willing to follow Satan during his last stand.

    The problem is how did these Tribulation Saints that escape martydom and survive to the end of the Great Tribulation without receiving the Mark of the Beast miss the Rapture? Consider the cost of refusing the mark, martyrdom or life on the run being hunted down, unable to buy or sell anything. Anyone who is willing to be martyred rather than receive the mark should have realized that to receive the mark meant eternal damnation. They must have come to faith in Christ which is the reason they would be willing to be martyred rather than accept the mark of the Beast. If they believed enough to refuse the mark they should have been Raptured the Day of the Second Coming according to the theory that the Rapture and the Second Coming happen on the same day. But this is not the case. Living Tribulation Saints enter the Millenium in natural bodies and can fall and can sin and can die and can choose to follow Satan's rebellion and can be thrown into the lake of fire.

   This is the problem with this Pre-wrath interpretation. Somehow people believed enough to refuse the mark of the Beast but not enough to be Raptured but then believed enough to be allowed to enter the millenium alive only to experience a 1000 year test with the Lord reigning over earth. Then Satan will be allowed to test them one more final time.

   The question is how did unresurrected natural mankind enter the millenium alive after refusing the mark of the beast but missing the Rapture which leaves them in their natural bodies?

   This is only a problem when the timing of the Rapture is not Pre-Tribulation, before the tribulation period begins.

   In reality those Tribulation Saints that are martyred are the lucky ones, because they will be resurrected and enter the Millenium as priests in immortal bodies that Satan can not test and that the Second Death has no power over. The Tribulation Saints that survive to the end of the Great Tribulation and remain alive in natural bodies when they enter the Millenium are subject to the rules and testing of the Millenium and will be tested by Satan when he is released after the 1000 years are over. The Tribulation Saints that enter the Millenium alive and unresurrected can choose to follow Satan in his rebellion and be cast into the lake of fire with him. The martyed Tribulation Saints receive immortal bodies at the Second Coming of Christ and get a much better deal than those who run and hide and survive.

   I'd recommend martyrdom to the Tribulation period Saints, turn yourself over to Satan's authorities and allow your head to be cut off. By doing so you ensure an immortal body for the Millenium and avoid being tested for a 1000 years and Satan"s rebellion which could cost them their Salvation. Theres no guarentee that those who enter the Millenium alive in unresurrected bodies will not fail the final test and follow Satan into the lake of fire. Thats my opinion of it anyways.

   The Pre-Tribulation interpretation goes like this.

   The Rapture of the Church takes place before the Tribulation period and Daniel's 70th week. Next Daniel's 70th week begins and multitudes come to faith during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week after witnessing the Rapture. At the mid week of the 70th week Satan is thrown from heaven, Antichrist (the beast) receives authority over the earth for the 42 remaining months of Daniel's 70th week. The Wrath of God begins at the mid week and the effect of the 7 vials begin to be poured out from the midweek on. The new Tribulation period Saints are then hunted down and many are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast. At the end of the 70th week Christ resurrects the martyred Tribulation Saints and returns to the earth with His WIFE the Raptured Church that has been with Him in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel. The Tribulation Saints that escaped martydom and remained alive until the Second Coming are then gathered by angels to appear at the sheep and goat judgement by Christ along with those who received the mark of the beast who will be destroyed and be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millenium.

    By placing the Rapture and the Second Coming on the same day or even placing the Rapture after the mark of the beast is issued has unresolvable conflicts with Scripture.

    I'll continue on in my next post, got to go coach my sons soccer game now.

                                                                Paul2