Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages

[Paul2]

 Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I come quickly[/i]: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."[/b]

     At the Rapture people on earth do not see Christ standing ON-TOP of the clouds calling His Church to meet him on the clouds. In a split second Christians vanish. Our cloths, dental fillings, glasses, makeup, ear rings, and jewelry will fall to the ground as our bodies are transformed from mortal to immortal and instantly are present with Jesus on top of the clouds.

    From earth we can not see a man standing at 30,000 ft above the clouds. Earth will not see Christ at the Rapture. Earth will witness Christians vanish, dematerialize, leaving behind clothes, jewelry, and everything that was not our DNA.

   People on earth see a vanishing, the church will probably be refered to as "those taken" or something. ("have you heard from so and so? No, he was taken!") Antichrist will offer a wicked lie to deceive earth from what really took place at the Rapture of the Church. He will blaspheme us who will be dwelling in Heaven at that point. If earth saw Jesus standing up there at the Rapture, they wouldn't be deceived by Antichrist, after seeing the True Lord, Jesus Christ floating above on a cloud.

    At the second Coming of Christ to the earth he will decend from the clouds to the earth. People will witness a slow decent. It will be a sign! They will witness an army of White horses riden by the church, lead by Christ slowly decend to earth. This will be an all day event, people around the world will look up and see the army of the Lord filling the sky above their heads. When the whole world has seen the army of the Lord above in the sky the Lord Jesus Christ will decend down to touch down on the mount of Olives fulfilling Zechariah 14.

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.[/u]"

    The above verse is not the Rapture, its the Second Coming, a different event entirely. All kindreds of the earth shall WAIL because of him. This isn't the Church going up to the clouds to meet Christ in the air on the clouds at the Rapture. At the Rapture, the Bride, the Church will called out of the world and to the clouds by Jesus Christ,the brideGroom. We will meet the Lord in the air and will be taken to the place Jesus prepared for us in John 14:3, to the fathers house, for the wedding week in Heaven. The above verse is when the wedding week is over in Heaven as well as the 70th week of Daniel is over on earth, its the final day of Daniel's 70th week and Christ is seen by earth with his WIFE, the Church being presented to the world. The earth is horrified at the sight of the Lord and His army. The world watches as we the church decend with Jesus with the clouds. The earth will be able to look up and see us slowly decending closer and closer as hours go by. The earth will rotate so all eyes will see the Lord and his army filling the sky above their heads. When the world rotates and Jerusalem is underneath Jesus he will decend down to touch down on the mount of Olives.

    Revelation chapter 19 records the Second Coming not the Rapture. Verse 7 states that the Wife has been made ready. The Wife of the Lord Jesus had been in Heaven for the wedding week while Daniel's 70th week takes place on earth and is now being presented as the Wife of the Lamb, the marriage has been consumated and now the wife is being presented, and the wedding feast will begin when the Lord Jesus' feet touch down and he Judges the nations and gathers his sheep and banishes the goats.

     2nd Timothy,

    I know you know this stuff but I'm answering your question for others to read. At the Rapture people left behind will see Christians vaporize or dematerialize in a split second, they will not see Christ on the clouds. They also will not hear His shout thats calls the Church to the clouds. Only the Church will hear the shout at the Rapture, for only the sheep know their masters voice. Antichrist has the wicked lie to explain where the church went. At the Second Coming men will know who is coming on the clouds, they will WAIL because they know its Jesus Christ coming to destroy those who accepted the mark of the beast.

    I don't know why these verses are always confused with the Rapture. the word WIFE in Revelation 19:7 should be a clue that the Church has already gone from being the Bride to being the Wife, which is presented at the end of the wedding week in Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus time. While the 70th week of Daniel takes place on earth the wedding week of the Church to Christ takes place in Heaven. The Church returns to earth with Christ, we leave the wedding chamber Jesus prepared and brought us to (John 14:3) and then we decend to earth on the clouds with him as people on earth see us coming down from the clouds and Wail!

    Why is this so difficult for some?

                                                         Paul2

[Petro]

posted by 2dTim as reply #283

When you compare your passage with the following, it becomes apparent that they are the same event.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Sounding very much like what is described in Matthew about the birds gathering to eat the flesh of the dead.

OK,  Rev 19:11-13 and Rev 6:2 appears to be the same event to me, also;

And the armies of Rev 19:14, appear to be made up of the souls of those mentioned in  Rev 6:11, and Rev 7:9-14, there is no evidence these are angels, but it is clear from Rev 20:4-6, that these are the souls of  them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;(Rev 20:4), in short these are  they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14)

Whether Mat 24, is speaking of a rapture or no, verses 27,29-30, makes it clear Jesus's return to earth occurs after the great tribulation, and "those armies which were in heaven "of Rev 19:14 that followed Him appear to be the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, who stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; of Rev 7:9,14.

One would have to be in denial to claim these are verses are not connected.

Now conisder what Daniel says;

Dan 7
9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
18  But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
21  I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23  Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

These verses shed a consider amount of light on the end times prophecies, and clear up the times coming of the rapture considerably.

Note verses 18, the word shall places saints on the earth during the tribulation (Rev 13:7,10, 14:12, and clearly states they shall take possession (future) of the kingdom, but not until the appointed time,

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now chapter 11 of Daniel is in dispute, some believe (as our brother Joel, that these things spoken herein have already come to pass, however consider the wording carefully) this could very well be language which describes the man of sin the son of perdition prior to the Second Coming according to Daniel's vision.

Dan 11
36  And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37  Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Dan 12
1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3  And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Notice verse 1 of Dan 12, "every one that shall be found written in the book."

Who are these?? And when does this occur??

Jesus said to His disciples Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. (Lk 10:20)

And the Apostle at Heb 12;

22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

There is much more to be said herein, but I will break here, and will answer the rest of your post later.

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

posted by 2d Tim as reply #283
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This verse makes it clear that this is the second coming...actual return to earth. Verse 21 says the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. IMO this is the second coming, not the ratpure. Of course, placing the rapture of the church at this point would be a post trib event, which seems to have problems with other verses. For example, if it happens at this time, when we go to fathers house where Jesus is preparing mansions for us? (John 14:2) Who is the army seen following Christ dressed in fine white linnen? I say Jude 1:14. And if we are seen coming with him, then we left long before this event and have been dwelling in heavenly mansions.

Concerning the perparing of mansions, all Jesus ever said was;
Jhn 14
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You have to assume Jesus comes twice to make this theory fit, once to come and return imediately to His Fathers House, with only the Pre Tribulation Saints, since this is the teaching of Pre Tribulationism, however, scriptures clearly teaches the saints will be wherever He is, if his return is to the earth at His second Coming, it will be to establish His millenial Kingdom on the earth, and according to Rev 19:14 and Rev 7:14-15, these who tend at the throne of God, came out of the great tribulation.

Which agrees with scripture, Rev 6:11 and those of Rev 7:14-15, are raised at His Second Coming,

At verse Jhn 14:3, He simply states;

 [/b]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also[/b]
 
If He comes to earth to reign 1000 years, that is where His saints will be, with HIM, that is why ;
1 Th4, says;
17  ..................... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
This occurs at His second coming and not before.

And besides, What you are describing at Rev 19,  is the wrath (Judgments) of God upon the earth on the ungodly. being poured out, compare this with Zephaniah 1:7-2:2, and Zec 14:1-16, and the beginning of the Millenial Reign of Christ at Jerusalem.

To me it becomes a real problem trying to seperate Matthew 24:27-30 and Revelation 19:11-21. The more I study Matthew 24, the less I believe it references the rapture. I think its focus is more on tribulation period. The church is not even established at that point.

The rapture occurs at His Second Coming, where in scripture do you read of another Pre Second Coming return, if there is one?,  then Mat 24, would be speaking of His Third Coming.

Another problem is the overlapping of dispensations. Let me say right off the bat, that I lack knowledge in this area of scripture, but I do know that there are no examples of this anywhere else in the bible. If the 70th week begins at the beginning of the tribulation, and the rapture happens at mid or end, then we get overlapping dispensations. There was no church during the first 69 weeks, so it makes sense that there will be no church during the last week. (I will leave this argument for you and Paul2 however, as I am not equipped to debate it....hopefully you guys can shed more light on this.)

That is why the saints of Rev 13;7,10, 14:12, have to be defined, My question still remains,

What makes these saints, diferent from the saints of  say, Eph 2:19-22??

I will admit I am no brain,

But any honest individual that looks at Eph 2:19-22, and compares them to those saints of Rev 13:7,10 and Rev 14:12, if he is honest will admit there is no difference between them,

They are saints because they are called, chosen elect saints of the household of God;

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom ALL the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Another point I am raising, is that Rev 7:14 appears to include tha same individuals that Rev 20:1-9 mentions;  

At  vs4   "these were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reign with Christ 1000 years."

Note verses;

5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And,

6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These are raised at the rapture, which is the first resurrection.(1 Th 4:16)

What verses are relied upon to exclude these that came out of the great tribulation from being members of the body of Christ, they are not only called "saints" at Rev 20:9 but  "priests" at vs  6.??

Petro

[Petro]

So, on the same note;

Rev 20
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Verse above, practically single handedly destroys the Pre Trib, and Mid Trib theories, since it is clear that the souls of these who are spoken of were  produced by their  

refusal to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

According to verse 4 they not only are killed for this reason, but they also are raised to life and reign with Christ 1000 years.

When are they raised??

At the end of the great tribulation, at Christs second coming, are not these those who are spoken of at 1 Th 4:16;??

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If the church (those that sleep, and those who remain alive) are caught up in the air ) returns to rule with Christ of the earth, it is clear these of Rev 20, are a part of it all.

How is the theory, that only His church (those who attend the wedding feast during the 7 year period of the tribulation), who those not go through the Great Tribulation, will come to reign with Him 1000 tears on the earth??

Are there any answers for this apparent inconsistency??

Anybody??




Blessings,

Petro

 

[Paul2]

So, on the same note;

Rev 20
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Verse above, practically single handedly destroys the Pre Trib, and Mid Trib theories, since it is clear that the souls of these who are spoken of were  produced by their  

refusal to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

According to verse 4 they not only are killed for this reason, but they also are raised to life and reign with Christ 1000 years.

When are they raised??

At the end of the great tribulation, at Christs second coming, are not these those who are spoken of at 1 Th 4:16;??

    No, these are not the Church in Christ spoken of in 1 Thess. 4:16-17. These are Tribulation Saints who were not taken at the Rapture of the Church because they didn't believe in Christ at the time of the Rapture. Tribulation Saints are raised at the Second Coming, not the Rapture of the Church because at the time of the Rapture of the Church in Christ they were not believers in Christ.

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If the church (those that sleep, and those who remain alive) are caught up in the air ) returns to rule with Christ of the earth, it is clear these of Rev 20, are a part of it all.

    Yes, Tribulation Saints are part of it at the Second Coming, not before the Second Coming.

Revelation 19:14  "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

    Notice verse 14 above says "armies", not army. Armies shows divisions in the armies. The Church that was Raptured is one division of the armies, the Tribulation Saints are another division in the Armies. the word "Army" would be a single army, all the same division, but the word used is plural, "Armies" which supports different divisions of the army, making them plural as "armies". The Tribulation Saints are resurrected the day of the Second Coming and become a division in the Lord's Armies, alongside of the Raptured Church's division of the Lords armies.

    Problem is you place the Rapture and the Second Coming at the same time, which they are not. You must place the Wrath of the Lamb after the Second Coming because you know the Church will not be under wrath. Problem is that the wrath begins at Daniel's mid-week!

2 Thessalonians 2:10: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
   11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
   12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

     At the Daniel's Mid Week, the Beast(Antichrist) receives authority from Satan for 42 months. Satan offered authority to Jesus in the desert but Jesus refused the offer, Antichrist will accept the offer. God gave men 1260 days from the beginning of Daniel's 70th week to the midweek, with the 2 witnesses prophezing to make up their minds. At the midweek a decision must be made, times up, those who came to faith will be persecuted, those who rejected the truth will be sent a strong delusion by God Himself that they should believe the big lie of Antichrist. If this isn't the Wrath of God, what is it? God is blinding men to the truth and sending them delusions that they believe Antichrist's lie and accept the mark of the beast, which eternally damns them. This is the Wrath of God! It begins when the Great tribulation begins at Daniel's Midweek.

    For the record when God sends a person a delusion that will cause them to be eternally damned that person's experiencing the Wrath of God, theres no grace, no mercy, only wrath when God is sending delusions to deceive people from believing the truth so they believe a lie which will cause damnation! The Church will never experience the wrath of God, but the Tribulation Saints will, and will be presecuted and martyred. If men haven't placed faith in Christ by the middle of Daniel's 70th week, God will send them the delusion that will cause them to believe the big lie of Antichrist and accept his mark. When the Midweek of Daniel's 70th week occurs, the Great Tribulation and wrath of the Lamb begin. Decision day will have come! If men haven't accepted Christ by the Midweek, God will send them the delusion which will cause them to accept Antichrist and his mark, which will damn them. This is the Wrath of God!
 
                                                       

How is the theory, that only His church (those who attend the wedding feast during the 7 year period of the tribulation), who those not go through the Great Tribulation, will come to reign with Him 1000 tears on the earth??

Are there any answers for this apparent inconsistency??

Anybody??

Blessings,

Petro

       When God directly causes people to miss the truth and believe a lie that will eternally damn them, this is not Wrath?
      What is it then?

                                                        Paul2
     

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

AMEN BROTHER!

I think that you are right on target. I'm hoping to participate more here when health situations for my wife and I settle down some. I am still studying along with you about 4 hours a day, but I don't feel well enough to post on such a complex topic right now.

At this point, I would simply point out that writing off prophecy as visions instead of reality to come is a serious error. I would also state with certainty that one must separate the Church which is the Body of Christ from those who will be saved during the Tribulation Period. In the absence of this serious consideration, Prophecy and the Tribulation Period make no sense.

Prophecy in the Holy Bible is not simply dreams and visions. There is an obvious and significant purpose for all prophecy, and that purpose is literal reality of the future.

Literally, the Church which is the Body of Christ will be "caught up" (raptured) before the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

Literally, there will be a 7 year Tribulation Period.

Literally, the anti-christ will reign over the earth for the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. The anti-christ is not a system or object, rather a real entity.

Literally, there will be a Second Coming of Christ, separate and distinct from the Rapture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[2nd Timothy]

Petro, sorry so long getting back to this.  Been very busy as of late.   Let me try to quickly hit on a few points in this one post.   I promise I will try to catch up with some of the other points when time permits.

OK,  Rev 19:11-13 and Rev 6:2 appears to be the same event to me, also;

I have heard others say they believe this also, but for me it does not make sense to say they are the same.

COMPARE:
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

No mistake who this passage speaks of.

Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Here it is not so clear in the text.  First off, the rider in 6:2 is wearing ONE crown that is given to him.  Note that the man of sin will declare himself God.   He is also seen overpowering the Saints later on.  We know he will be powerful, as people will say, "who can make war with the beast".  I believe this rider is the Antichrist not Christ.  In 19:12 the rider is wearing MANY crowns.  The rider in 6 only has one.   I could see how one would equate that to christ, but the same could be said of the Beast or Antichrist during this time.   Daniel 9 indicates that the antichrist weapon of choice will start as peace.  I believe this ties into the discription of Rev 6:2, the rider carrying a bow, no mention of arrows.   If the rider in chapter 6 is Christ, the 3 riders that follow seem to mess up any conquering done by the first, if it were speaking of Christ.   However, if the first rider is the Antichrist, the other 3 riders following in sequence make much better sense as to what sort of conquering he is doing.   For me, the first rider as Christ does not fit the events described in Chapter 19.   It certainly does not fit a pre-wrath view.

And the armies of Rev 19:14, appear to be made up of the souls of those mentioned in  Rev 6:11,

If I follow you here, you have Christ returning in chapter 6 and 19 as the same event, (litteral second coming) the armies are the marters which are killed at the fifth seal, yet they are seen in your interpretation appearing with Christ at the first seal and have yet to be martered?   This does not make any sense to me what so ever.

I have to stop here, otherwise I'm going to be late for work.  Will try to hit on the rest of this sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

Petro, sorry so long getting back to this.  Been very busy as of late.   Let me try to quickly hit on a few points in this one post.   I promise I will try to catch up with some of the other points when time permits.

2d Tim,

Hey don't feel as thought you need to answer every question I raise, if somebody does or doesn't, it won't end the world, My aim to get people to read the bible, and make an effort to get intot he Word, rather than depending of what others believe and just simply agreeing with them, what is important is to get to know the word of God.

Buit actually, You nned to read what I was answering to;

OK,  Rev 19:11-13 and Rev 6:2 appears to be the same event to me, also;

Note what IO was answering to;

posted by 2dTim as reply #283

When you compare your passage with the following, it becomes apparent that they are the same event.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Sounding very much like what is described in Matthew about the birds gathering to eat the flesh of the dead.

All I said, is I agreed (with you) that it appears to be the same event (Rev6:2), This is only one verse, and it is not clear one way or the other, to me, it simply appears to be the same white horse, whith its rider.

All John says about this is he was in the Spirit on the Lords day , when he saw this vision in heaven.

My point at Rev 6, is directed more so, to those who are referred to as the "souls of them, that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

I have heard others say they believe this also, but for me it does not make sense to say they are the same.

COMPARE:
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

No mistake who this passage speaks of.

Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Here it is not so clear in the text.  First off, the rider in 6:2 is wearing ONE crown that is given to him.  Note that the man of sin will declare himself God.   He is also seen overpowering the Saints later on.  We know he will be powerful, as people will say, "who can make war with the beast".  I believe this rider is the Antichrist not Christ.  In 19:12 the rider is wearing MANY crowns.  The rider in 6 only has one.   I could see how one would equate that to christ, but the same could be said of the Beast or Antichrist during this time.   Daniel 9 indicates that the antichrist weapon of choice will start as peace.  I believe this ties into the discription of Rev 6:2, the rider carrying a bow, no mention of arrows.   If the rider in chapter 6 is Christ, the 3 riders that follow seem to mess up any conquering done by the first, if it were speaking of Christ.   However, if the first rider is the Antichrist, the other 3 riders following in sequence make much better sense as to what sort of conquering he is doing.   For me, the first rider as Christ does not fit the events described in Chapter 19.   It certainly does not fit a pre-wrath view.

Well, your guess is just as viable as any other. If it is as you say, the first seal would be the mid-tribulation according to your take, on this.

Either way, the souls of those slain for the word of God at Rev 6:9-11, cannot be rulled out as being those who have been martyred for the faith of Jesus, or (dead church members).

To simply say, these are not does not explain the reason why they are omitted, and this seems to be what is being said.

Since John is seeing this in a vision, it is not determined, whether he conisders these to include himself.

And the armies of Rev 19:14, appear to be made up of the souls of those mentioned in  Rev 6:11,

If I follow you here, you have Christ returning in chapter 6 and 19 as the same event, (litteral second coming) the armies are the marters which are killed at the fifth seal, yet they are seen in your interpretation appearing with Christ at the first seal and have yet to be martered?   This does not make any sense to me what so ever.

No, I  never said this at all, I have maintained those of the fifth seal, at Rev 6:9-11, ulmately the same ones of Rev 20:4, and they,  end up, Reigning and rulling with Christ, this is clear to me.

When the seals are opened in relation to other things, it is not totally clear to me.


I stated it appears to be this way, in answer to youre statement.  The seals and the trumpets, and other dynamics are occuring, which could be one event, yet, the way they are written, we do not know whether there is times span between them, I am raising questions,  as I see it,

and the problems caused by arbitrarily excluding some and including some, claiming some are a part of the church while other are not.

I am not setting the order of how these things are occuring, at all.

As I have stated, so I still state, Jesus promised to keep the church from the wrath of God to come, as I undersdtand this wrath begings at His return, he never promised to take the church out of the world; in fact when He prayed to the Father, He clearly asked the Father not that He should take them out of the World, speaking of the chuch;

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

A pre Trib or Mid Trib rapture does take the church out of the world, before His second coming.
 


As I see it.

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Hey don't feel as thought you need to answer every question I raise, if somebody does or doesn't, it won't end the world, My aim to get people to read the bible, and make an effort to get intot he Word, rather than depending of what others believe and just simply agreeing with them, what is important is to get to know the word of God.

Amen!   I am in total agreement with you here brother.

Well, your guess is just as viable as any other. If it is as you say, the first seal would be the mid-tribulation according to your take, on this.

Either way, the souls of those slain for the word of God at Rev 6:9-11, cannot be rulled out as being those who have been martyred for the faith of Jesus, or (dead church members).

To simply say, these are not does not explain the reason why they are omitted, and this seems to be what is being said.

Actually, my take is that the breaking of the first seal begins Daniels 70th week, which to appears to be the Antichrist coming onto the scene conquering world power and signing his pact with Israel kicking off the first 3 1/2 years.   I think we are in agreement about Rev 6:9-11 with the exception of them being the church.  There is no question they are beheaded for their faith in Christ, but they do not account for the elders who have already been seen in heaven prior to this.   Rev 5:1 indicates that there are men already in heaven.  Rev 5:8-9 indicates that both the elders and the 4 beasts have been redeemed by the blood out of every nation, and have ALREADY been made kings and priests (Rev 1:6 also speaking to the 7 churches) and SHALL (future tense) reign on earth.   These are seen in heaven before the first seal is even broken.   I tend to agree with both Bep and Paul, that this the Church.  Clearly these are men, and clearly they withness the breaking of the fifth seal when the marters are seen under the alter.   I cannot explain how there are two groups of believers, but there certainly appears to be going by how it is written.   The current church being raptured prior to those coming to faith during the tribulation and being overcome agrees with these however.

I probably did misunderstand you on your other points....I seem to be prone to that    My appologies.

I stated it appears to be this way, in answer to youre statement.  The seals and the trumpets, and other dynamics are occuring, which could be one event, yet, the way they are written, we do not know whether there is times span between them, I am raising questions,  as I see it,

Hmmm.  I do believe the seals, the bowls and the trumpets run sequentially, and not all at once.   One verse that indicates these happen in sequence is Rev 8:1-7.  The seventh seal actully initiates the sounding of the trumpets.   I know some might say that means nothing, but reading it plainly, IMO they follow a sequence.   Also considering prophecies in Daniel, Ezekiel etc.  the battle of Gog and Magog, the 200 million man army that attacks, the number of days mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation for various periods of time, I don't believe its a stretch to say they seals, trumpets and bowls have a sequential order and some even appear to bring about the next.

As I have stated, so I still state, Jesus promised to keep the church from the wrath of God to come, as I undersdtand this wrath begings at His return, he never promised to take the church out of the world; in fact when He prayed to the Father, He clearly asked the Father not that He should take them out of the World, speaking of the chuch;

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

A pre Trib or Mid Trib rapture does take the church out of the world, before His second coming.



As I see it.

I hear you Petro.   We have also spoken about this verse before.   The only answer I can offer here is that God would have taken these given to Christ at that time out of the world because of their faith in Christ, and because they were not of this world...just as we are.  Just as Enoch was.  The only difference is, that those prayed for were to continue the work that Jesus was leaving behind.  (Just as he was sent into the world, so he would send them into the world.)  We the Church carry on the work that Jesus started.  Spreading his truth, mercy and Love to the lost.   This could not be done if they were removed.  Does that mean we will never be taken out of the earth, ever?   We know from other scripture that we certainly will be caught up and removed from the earth at some point.  The question is when.  So what was the purpose of Jesus' prayer in John 17?  Not to ever remove believers from planet earth?  I don't think so.   It was to finish the work that Jesus started...preaching the gospel to all nations to the ends of the earth.   So again we arrive at the 49 thousand dollar question.  When will we be changed, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

I still believe that day will happen before the great tribulation, mainly because in my mind, it fits the sequence of events best that are layed out in scripture.   No, there not one particular verse that says..."the church is raptured before the trib", but looking at all the events described, the details of various verses, there are just too many unanswered questions with the church present during last 7 years.   I wont say all the questions are not answered with it absent, but it makes better sense with most scripture in a pre-trib scenario than any other I have considered.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

   BlackEyedPeas and 2nd Timothy

    Tom and Tim,

    Do me a favor, when you disagree with me on something please post your objection here for all to see. You've studied this subject of End Times and have your own conclusions. When ever I post "Anything" you disagree with make it clearly known. Some people keep rambling on about the rapture being a false doctrine founded in 1830 by some scottish girl named Mary Macdonald, who I've never studied. I didn't find the Rapture doctrine from Mary Macdonald, but from the Holy Bible.

    I want people to understand that others also see the Rapture and the end times events as I see them. You can see what I see, it makes sense to you. You understand that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church is the only interpretation that scripture allows without contradiction. So when we disagree speak right up and let everybody see where we differ on interpretation. I'm not thinking you won't disagree on something minor but any disagreement at all, speak right up. I'm betting that we agree on just about everything. Did you study the scottish girls interpretation? I doubt it, me neither.

     People have more respect for your writings than mine. Anything you've seen me write that you disagree with post your disagreement here. If you disagree with me on something I want to restudy the issue, perhaps I missed something. If I'm wrong I want to know about it. The reason I'm asking you is because I believe you both see the truth. When we disagree let me know.

     With all the writing I do on this subject, and the scenarios I use to make my point, I've provided plenty of material for your examination.

    I want people to understand that we have never met, we don't go to the same church, I don't even know what denomination you guys are, I have no denomination. I'm just a Christian, I believe I'm a member of the Church of Philidelphia which will be Raptured. Somehow we came to the same conclusions, we both see the same scenario of the end times.

    Unless you post our disagreements I'll assume that we agree. I really do want to know if you think I'm mistaken or have missed something. Don't be shy Tom and Tim lets get everything on the table for all to see. I'm betting that any disagreements can be cleared up, and if you think I've made a mistake I definately want to give the subject a further study.

    I think it says volumes when men who have never met, never studied the little scottish girl of 1830 come to the same conclusion from Scripture. You believe Scripture teaches the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church and so do I. Any disagreements with me should be posted and dealt with. I'm willing to study any disagreement with you Tom and 2nd Timothy. Lets see how close we really are in our beliefs.

    This is an invitation for BlackEyedPeas and 2nd Timothy only. I know the rest of you disagree with me already. This is a test to see if we disagree on anything, any minor details even. I'm betting were closer than anybody thinks. Lets find out for sure.

    I'm going on vacation to Cape Cod tomorrow until Wednesday. I'll have to wait until then to reply but I will when I get home.

                                                         Paul2

Brother Paul,

I think we are very much in agreement.   If I had to pick one point that I have read from you where I thought we may differ on, I think it would be the following passage.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I think you have said that you see this falling away as the rapture event?   At least I think thats what you have said...maybe I'm wrong?   IMO the falling away is abandonment of the church.  

Aside from this, I think we are on the same page.  I too had never heard of the McDonald girl prior to some recent debates regarding the rapture timing.   She certainly has no bearing on my view of the rapture.   While its a difficult study as Tom has said, I believe scripture supports a pre-trib rapture, and thats what I base my belief on.

Like most believers on this site, I think the majority of us are real truth seekers.   I don't believe any of us are pushing an agenda so to speak.  We want the depths of Gods truth, and search his word diligently for that truth.   Its inevetable that we will disagree at times, but that process encourages us to seek a better understand of Gods word to see if we could be wrong.   God is gracious, and his word is a precious life giving resource for us.   Whether it comes from agreement or disagreement, seeking out truths from his word is not only pleasing to him, but keeps our minds stayed on him.

Oh what a day it will be when we finally see him face to face, and behold the Lord Jesus, God almighty - Alpha and Omega!  

I hope it happens today!

Hope you are enjoying your vacation, and If the rapture happens, I'll see you in the air!....lol  

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

Hey don't feel as thought you need to answer every question I raise, if somebody does or doesn't, it won't end the world, My aim to get people to read the bible, and make an effort to get intot he Word, rather than depending of what others believe and just simply agreeing with them, what is important is to get to know the word of God.

Amen!   I am in total agreement with you here brother.

Well, your guess is just as viable as any other. If it is as you say, the first seal would be the mid-tribulation according to your take, on this.

Either way, the souls of those slain for the word of God at Rev 6:9-11, cannot be ruled out as being those who have been martyred for the faith of Jesus, or (dead church members).

To simply say, these are not does not explain the reason why they are omitted, and this seems to be what is being said.

Actually, my take is that the breaking of the first seal begins Daniels 70th week, which to appears to be the Antichrist coming onto the scene conquering world power and signing his pact with Israel kicking off the first 3 1/2 years.

Please ...................Give me the exact verse?? ... you rely on which causes you to believe this.

What signs do you rely on to identify the sign of the man of sin??

 I hope it isn't his signature on some document.  How about  the apostasy??

Do you see a "falling away" from the truth or is it the "departure" rapture??

 

I think we are in agreement about Rev 6:9-11 with the exception of them being the church.  There is no question they are beheaded for their faith in Christ, but they do not account for the elders who have already been seen in heaven prior to this.

The twenty four elder could be very well be the twelve OT Patriarchs and the twelve Apostles (Lk 22:30, Rev 21:11-14) who the 12 Patriarchs are represented by is up for grabs  (their names are symbolized by twelve stones on the breastplate Ephod] [, worn by the Hight Priest ] in the Holy place at the tabernacle of Moses/David at Ex 28:21, 39:14-15, their names are also given to the 12 gates of the the city NEW Jeruselam Rev 22:12] conisder (Isa 16:5, Amos 9:11); and the 12 Apostles had been promised to sit on thrones by Jesus to judge Israel in His kingdom.

Jesus is returning to build once again the fallen tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16, Amos 9:11)



All Rev 6:9 says is;   "when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,"...................

It seems to me, one needs to speculate, about things in order to try an build an explanation, this is what bothers me, when men start speculating and inserting answers to their own questions, building their own case up to take, it in the direction they desire it to go.  

Next thing you know men start teaching dinspired octrines which are founded on these speculative answers .

 Rev 5:1 indicates that there are men already in heaven.  Rev 5:8-9 indicates that both the elders and the 4 beasts have been redeemed by the blood out of every nation, and have ALREADY been made kings and priests (Rev 1:6 also speaking to the 7 churches) and SHALL (future tense) reign on earth.   These are seen in heaven before the first seal is even broken.   I tend to agree with both Bep and Paul, that this the Church.

Wait a second...........hold everything...

I see, Rev 5:9-10, where the elders and beast are singing this song, but what makes you think they were made kings and priests in heaven??  after there deaths, John wrote this he was still living on the earth, and he uses the same language in the past tense.

Where do you see the word "shall" at verse 6,.

PLEASE......Look at the first six verses (especially Rev 1:5-7) closer, this is the opening PORTION OF THIS  letter written to  seven literal churches existing on the earth at the time this was written, the statement John makes is in the past tense "made us" at this verse ; he includes himself as a king and priest.................what about this?? look......

5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6  And [hath]made uss kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)


John is not in a trance, and he is not seeing any visions, as yet, when he wrote this,.  (I think you assume he is.......) as a matter of fact, he doesn't begin writing about"what he saw" until verse 8, which he reiterates at verse 10, after explaining the setting of the vision, in the opening verses.  

So it is clear it wasn't until he heard the voice of the Lord to write these things at verse 11, that John begins writing.

Now look at the verse, again;

5  and from Jesus Christ the witness faithfull the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. T him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his blood,
6  and made us kings and priests to God and Father his.....
7  Behold He comes with the clouds , and shall see Him every eye, and they which Him pierced and shall wail on account of Him, all the tribes of the earth. Yea, Amen.

Greek-English Interlinear Version

I think it is erroneous to say, that John is herein seeing these things, as he is writing these first seven verses,  there is no question he saw them, but I believe he wrote this as the opening statement to this letter, after he wrote what he saw on the Lords Day while on the isle that was called Patmos, and the strongest point for this argument is the  word us at verse 6,

He includes himself as  being a king and a  priest, in his present state.

We have a high priest, who ministers at the heavenly alter not made with human hands, we are told at Heb  8:1-2.

And we are able minsters of the Gospel of God, Paul even says at 1 Cor 4:8, the Corithians had reigned as kings without us...... while this is not positive proof, the Lord consider His saints, kings and priets, the Apostle, certainly states it clear enought at Rev 1:6, becuase he sure claims it for himself at verse 5.


11   What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Had it not been for the Lords words at verse 11, we may never have had this book to read.


 

Clearly these are men,

They are the souls of men that were slain..who the beasts are is not clear to me, they appear to be men, maybe not.

and clearly they withness the breaking of the fifth seal when the marters are seen u"[/b]nder the alter.   I cannot explain how there are two groups of believers, but there certainly appears to be going by how it is written.   The current church being raptured prior to those coming to faith during the tribulation and being overcome agrees with these however.

If you are still speaking of Rev 6:9-11, you "cannot explain how there are two groups of believers", because, they are not, what indelibly links them together with  those of Rev 13:7-10, 14:12 and  20:4, is  the "white linen robes" which are given to them, and the elders words; these all came out of the great tribulation, according to Rev 7:14 and Rev 20:4, they all have white linen robes.  

cont'd..........

[Petro]

   

(I can almost here it already, the next argument will be whether their robes are linen, cotton some other synthetic fabric.)
 
"it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."  Rev 6:11

Note that those who are to be killed, as they [were],  are their fellowservants and brethren,

there is not two groups here, either..

I think you fellows, are letting your imaginations get the best of you....herein.

I probably did misunderstand you on your other points....I seem to be prone to that    My appologies.

 

No apologies required..I may not have been clear on these, myself.

I stated it appears to be this way, in answer to youre statement.  The seals and the trumpets, and other dynamics are occuring, which could be one event, yet, the way they are written, we do not know whether there is times span between them, I am raising questions,  as I see it,

Hmmm.  I do believe the seals, the bowls and the trumpets run sequentially, and not all at once.

This is not clear to me.

 One verse that indicates these happen in sequence is Rev 8:1-7.  The seventh seal actully initiates the sounding of the trumpets.

I do see this, I think I pointed this out, in one of my previous posts.

  I know some might say that means nothing, but reading it plainly, IMO they follow a sequence.   Also considering prophecies in Daniel, Ezekiel etc.  the battle of Gog and Magog, the 200 million man army that attacks, the number of days mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation for various periods of time, I don't believe its a stretch to say they seals, trumpets and bowls have a sequential order and some even appear to bring about the next.

I disagree.

I do not see, the wrath beginning until  Rev 6, the sixth seal begins the heavenly signs that precede His return, which men on the earth see, and are running around looking for the door to hide from the wrath which is coming, whether it is a day or a series of days is not clear to me, but I am inclined to believe it may be days, the day of the Lord begings with  a literal day when he returns to the world, but the signs could span days, this is not unbelieveable to me..this could be the case depending where the ring side seat is one holds.

As I have stated, so I still state, Jesus promised to keep the church from the wrath of God to come, as I undersdtand (the signs announce His return) this wrath begings at His return, he never promised to take the church out of the world; in fact when He prayed to the Father, He clearly asked the Father not that He should take them out of the World, speaking of the chuch;

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

A pre Trib or Mid Trib rapture does take the church out of the world, before His second coming.



As I see it.

I hear you Petro.   We have also spoken about this verse before.   The only answer I can offer here is that God would have taken these given to Christ at that time out of the world because of their faith in Christ, and because they were not of this world...just as we are.  Just as Enoch was. The only difference is, that those prayed for were to continue the work that Jesus was leaving behind.  (Just as he was sent into the world, so he would send them into the world.)  We the Church carry on the work that Jesus started.  Spreading his truth, mercy and Love to the lost.   This could not be done if they were removed.  Does that mean we will never be taken out of the earth, ever?   We know from other scripture that we certainly will be caught up and removed from the earth at some point.  The question is when.  So what was the purpose of Jesus' prayer in John 17?  Not to ever remove believers from planet earth?  I don't think so.   It was to finish the work that Jesus started...preaching the gospel to all nations to the ends of the earth.   So again we arrive at the 49 thousand dollar question.  When will we be changed, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

Well, all of those who are assembled at the throne in Rev 7:9-14, and Rev 20:4, are ALL products of the great tribulation, who preached the same word that began with Jesus, this is clear from verses;

Rev 7:14  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Rev 20:4  ............... the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. Just because Rev 6:9-11, doesn't say they were beheaded, it is clear they died for their testimony and the word of God. The clincher for me is that they all indentified as dressed with white robes at Rev 19:8.  This includes all these (Rev 7:14,13:10-15, 20:4...

Is the church clothed in fine white linen, note; the church is referred to as her at verse 8,  below;

Rev 19
7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Clothed in white linen??  They must be robes??  And white at that..........! White linen Robes......

You see, the church here any place??

Paul2 makes the argument, the armies represent different classes of  individuals, some are the church while others are dispensational servants, and not members of the church

Clearly these verses should not be twisted to exclude, from this discussion, these of  Rev 19, being members of the church, refering to them of Rev 7:14.

Know lets look, at;

John 17
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.[/color.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This would cover everyone till the church is removed from the earth at the end of the age. Whenever that is.

Pre Tribbers, have to remove the church and the Holy Spirit at (the weak sign of) the signing of the peace agreement, to make the theory,  work.  Unless it is obvious the man of sin, is a great religious leader, who is revealed at this signing, many will miss this sign.

To arbitraily separate, what is obviously the same group of servants and brethern for the sake of trying to prove something is deceptive in my opinion.

I still believe that day will happen before the great tribulation, mainly because in my mind, it fits the sequence of events best that are layed out in scripture.   No, there not one particular verse that says..."the church is raptured before the trib", but looking at all the events described, the details of various verses, there are just too many unanswered questions with the church present during last 7 years.   I wont say all the questions are not answered with it absent, but it makes better sense with most scripture in a pre-trib scenario than any other I have considered.

Grace and Peace!

So, there you go, It appears it happens in everymans mind according to how he interprets scripture.

One has to allegorize what is not written, and this produces diferent results, of course I include myself, in this, since I am reading the same verses and I have an imagination also..

I say if one can't explain something,using the scriptures only, he ought not to even bring it up, it just muddy's the water, and besides how can one answer someone who says, I just have a feeling, I think or an opinion, maybe it is like this..................I say shore up the positions with Gods Word



Blessings,

Petro.

[Petro]

Petro, sorry so long getting back to this.  Been very busy as of late.   Let me try to quickly hit on a few points in this one post.   I promise I will try to catch up with some of the other points when time permits.

Here it is not so clear in the text.  First off, the rider in 6:2 is wearing ONE crown that is given to him.  Note that the man of sin will declare himself God.   He is also seen overpowering the Saints later on.  We know he will be powerful, as people will say, "who can make war with the beast".  I believe this rider is the Antichrist not Christ.  In 19:12 the rider is wearing MANY crowns.  The rider in 6 only has one.  Grace and Peace!

By the way, allow me to add a piece of the puzzle for the the many crowns issue.

Rev 19:12 is most definitely speaking of Jesus, the many crowns are the result of the crowns being cast at His feet by the twenty four elders.  Rev 4:4-10.

Note: 2 Tim 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 2:10, Rev 3:11,Rev 14:14,

But notice Rev 1:5

5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Who is John refering to herein ??

He is refering to the faithfull, Jesus was and is nothing to the secular kings of this earth, and won't be until He returns to rule over the nations.


So there is your reason for the "many crowns", these are  clearly Pre Millenial verses at Rev 20:4-6.


Blessings,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Please ...................Give me the exact verse?? ... you rely on which causes you to believe this.

This is the problem Petro.   You cannot look for one verse to explain many of these things, they must be taken as a whole with other scripture rightly dividing the word.
The first seal happens future to Johns Day.  Note the following…
Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
 Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John is in spirit, and seeing future events AFTER those of the previous chapters.   Things that will happen hereafter.
Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

I agree with you that these 24 may be the 24 patriarchs and are not angels.  However, this event is future to that of time of chapter 4.   Were they sitting on thrones wearing crowns during chapters 1-3?  Jesus told John in chapter 4:1 […..] come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is seeing future things at 4:1 that have not occurred as of yet.   I know your argument is that John had not died yet, so how can he see himself as one of the 24?   If John was in the spirit, and seeing future events maybe he did see himself and not know it – who knows.   He does see souls under the altar of those that are going to be slain for their testimony.   Those had not died yet either, so I don’t think that makes for a good argument.
I have always puzzled about the four beast that are around the throne.  Paul2 has an interesting theory about that I had never heard before…Maybe when he gets back he can post it again.  In 5:9 they are singing a song of redemption, claiming to have be redeemed by the blood of the lamb.  Angels do not sing such songs.  So who are the 4 beasts?   I am certainly open to hear anyone’s thoughts of this.

I see, Rev 5:9-10, where the elders and beast are singing this song, but what makes you think they were made kings and priests in heaven??  after there deaths, John wrote this he was still living on the earth, and he uses the same language in the past tense.

Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Seems plain enough to me Petro.  The setting is in heaven before the throne of God where John was taken in the spirit.  He was told to write down what he saw.  John writes that these 24 and 4 beasts are singing a song that they have been redeemed, that the lamb “hast made unto us our God kings and priests AND we SHALL reign on the earth!”
This is what he said he saw!  They are already before the throne with crowns and thrones.  They are not however on earth.  They are also wearing WHITE RAIMENT!
Now to the seals.  Only the lamb was found worthy to open AND release the ensuing
seals.   Why is that?  

Rev 5:12  Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Only the lamb was able to receive all the above due to his sinless sacrifice.   Important to note that the opening of the seals, is also a releasing of what is therein.  I know you will not agree with this, but I definitely view the seals as judgments in sequence, each one getting worse than the previous.   Only Christ is worthy, and has the authority to break and release what is therein, because only can judge those who reject his gift of salvation.  This begins judgment!
Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Again, this event is something that happened hereafter 4:1 (future).   John is still in the spirit, and seeing these seals broken by the lamb who is worthy.   So Jesus has received all power wisdom strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing opens this first seals.   To me, it seems odd to say that Jesus opens the seal, and releases himself as the rider of the white horse.  His redemptive work is finished at this point.   He is now releasing judgments!   If the ensuing horsemen do not convey this interpretation, I don’t know what does.  I clearly see the opening of this seal as a major event, that kicks off the ever increasing judgment on men and earth as only Christ is able to open it.    
This first rider carries a bow, he is riding a white horse, he is given a crown, and only once the seal is broken does he go forth conquering and to conquer.  (don’t forget, things that happen hereafter…Christs redemptive work is finished).  We know from Daniel, that the Antichrist will subdue other kings, he will speak great things against the most high, his weapon of choice will be peace.   Very fitting for a rider carrying a bow, but no arrows…wearing a crown (again described as a king in Daniel).   A key focus will be Israel.
Joh 5:43  I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Clearly he will be accepted by Israel as Messiah.  A strong clue!

What signs do you rely on to identify the sign of the man of sin??

He will be boastful, and speak great things against the most high according to Daniel.   He is going to be diverse, and subdue three leaders.   He is going to seek to change the times and laws.   Sounds very similar to someone on a conquest (going forth conquering and to conquer) for world power does it not?    The signing of the peace accord will be a key sign I believe.   And I’m not talking about some little peace agreement.  I think it will be a well publicized event.   I believe there will much talk by the Jews about this individual being accepted as Messiah as well.   These are hardly vague or weak clues.  

Do you see a "falling away" from the truth or is it the "departure" rapture??

I do not view the falling away as the rapture.   I view it as a departure from truth, and Godliness.   I think we are already beginning to see this today.   A departure from Godly principles in various church organizations, as well as individuals.

continued...