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Paul2
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« Reply #105 on: April 03, 2004, 04:26:59 PM »

                       Pre-Wrath problems part3

Lets take a look at the 7 vials and the effects they have on earth from the Pre-wrath perspective first.

 Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2:  And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."


    The effect of the first vial are painful sores which infect those who received the mark of the Beast. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It would only last for hours instead of days, weeks, months and years. 24 hours of suffering would not be pleasant but nothing compared to approcimately 3 1/2 years of duration if the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague.

Revelation 16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

    The effect of the second vial is that every living soul in the sea dies and the sea becomes as the blood of a dead man. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Yes its sad that everything in the sea dies but the effect would only last hours as far as the plague aspect. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine that every living thing in the sea dies and there are weeks and months and perhaps a few years of the sea being like the blood of a dead man. Imagine the stench of the coastline and the rotting flesh of sea creatures washing up on shore and the germs and sickness that will follow. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
 6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy."


     The effect of the 3rd vial is that the fresh water supply of the world turns to blood, the rivers, the water found underground all turned to blood. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. After all people can go 3 days without drinking water so 24 hours should be easy. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine mankind having no water to drink for months if not a few years. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:8: "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
 9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.


   The effect of the 4th vial will be the sun scorching people with great heat, and remember, they Repented Not. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It wouldn't be pleasant but it would only be one day in the sun, 24 hours or so in misery. By the way the day of the Second Coming is a cloudy day but thats besides the point. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine being burned by intense heat from the sun for months if not a few years. People complain about a 3 day heat wave now, imagine the worst heat wave in history lasting for months.It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:10: "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
 11: "And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."


   The effect of the 5th vial is darkness on the throne of the Beast, along with the pain from the sores of those who received the mark of the Beast, which is the continueing effect from the first vial. And once again we see that nobody repented. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Whats the big deal about one day of darkness. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine months if not a few years of darkness over the kingdom of the Beast and the painful sores continueing to plague those who accepted the mark of the beast. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:12: "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
 13:  "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 14:  "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
 15:  "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 16:  "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

   The effect of the 6th vial is that the Euphrates River is dried up to "prepare" the way for the kings of the east, also the Satanic Trinity of Satan, Antichrist and the false prophet work miracles to gather the armies of the world "to the battle of THAT great day of God Almighty". If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not possible. The wording of the verses says that "the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. It will take time for the Euphrates to dry up and for the 200 million man army of the kings of the east to go from China to Jerusalem. If it were just kings and not the army spoken of in Revelation 9 they could use bridges but as I said in a previous post there would be an incredible bottleneck traffic jam for 200 million to cross the Euphrates so the river is divinely dried up to PREPARE the way for the gathering around Jerusalem by the armies of the world. The armies of the world must be in place around Jerusalem before the second Coming of Christ and to try to fit all these events into one single day is not possible or probable. The battle of Armegeddon is a campaign not a quickly assembled group that decide to go to Jerusalem at the last moment and arrive and are assembled in a matter of hours. This takes time. Learn from the U.S. lead Iraqi freedom war. How long did it take for our armies to gather around Bagdad? It wasn't hours, it took months of preparation and then days once the final assault began and we set the record for the fastest movement of an army in world history.

Revelation 16:17 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 18: "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
 19: "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
 20: "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
 21: "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

  The effect of the 7 vial leads to the return of Christ at His second Coming. This is the time period that Zechariah 14's events take place. The final plague has been poured out on the earth and Christ Himself will be retuning to establish His kingdom after this plague is poured out.
   It should make far more sense to realize that the Wrath of God begins in the middle of Daniel's 70th week which allows the plague to become real horrific plagues that to try to fit all 7 vials between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth if both events are only hours apart. The Wrath of God wouldn't be all that bad if its effects only last a single day. It wouldn't be a pleasant day by any means but the plagues only become horrific when there is time for the full effect of each plague to manifest itself with the prolonged effects having time to truely devastate those who dwell on the earth.
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                                                      Paul2 Cool
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« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2004, 06:39:49 PM »

                PreWrath Rapture problems part 4

    I have presented evidence that there will be unresurrected people in natural bodies that will enter and dwell in the Millenium on earth. I will offer more evidence from Isaiah.

Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
   7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
   8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
   9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
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    There will be little children on earth during the Millenium. The will be infants on earth during the Millenium. The curse on nature will be removed and the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord. Wild Beasts will allow little children to lead them. These little children and those who are infants are not in resurrected bodies. They have natural bodies without the curse of nature on them. As in the days before noah when men lived to be 800- 900 years old so shall it be during the Millenium. Perhaps the aging process will be much slower than before the flood. The next verse will support the aging process being slower than it was on people before the flood.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
   20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


   Notice carefully that the child shall die an hundred years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.  First of lets remember that the scripture says "Die" which means that death is possible for those who remained alive or were born into the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. A child will die at a hundred years old. The aging process is extremely slowed down at the time of the Millenium. The sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. This means that by sinning a person can die and will be considered to have been accursed for committing sin. Death has no power over those who are resurrected into immortal bodies. These people spoken of by Isaiah are in mortal natural bodies with the curse of nature removed or at least partly removed. They are still mortal and will also have to be tested when Satan is released from his prison at the end of the Millenium. There is the possiblity that many who enter the Millenium alive in their natural bodies and those who are born of natural men during the Millenium will follow Satan into rebellion when the Millenium ends. Those who were Raptured (the Church) and those who were martyred and resurrected (Old testament and Tribulation Martyred Saints) will not be subject to Satan's last rebellion. Tribulation Saints that survive until the Second Coming of Christ will enter the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies and they and their children born during the Millenium will be the ones Satan will try to lead astray during his final rebellion.

 Isaiah 65:21: "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
   22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
   23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
   24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
   25: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."


    I'll stop here for now and allow time for responces.

   I would like an opinion of how I have done so far presenting my case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Have I presented reasonable evidence and backed it up with Scripture? Am I making my case? I truely want to know how I have done so far in presenting the case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture as it is presented in these posts. Please let me know your opinions on these last few posts. I want to know how many people feel I'm making a reasonable agruement against the Pre-Wrath interpretation. I'm trying to learn to be more effective in my presentations and explainations, so I welcome the critique. Let me know how you feel I am doing one way or the other.
                                                          Thank you.
                                                            Paul2 Cool



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« Reply #107 on: April 04, 2004, 07:55:47 AM »

I think most of these questions present problems not only for a pre-wrath, but also a post trib view as well.  

I am still a little confused about where pre-wrath places the rapture at in Revelation.  Like you Paul, I also thought Petro mentioned that the second coming in Chapter 19 and the rapture were the same event, but I am not clear on that.  I guess I need to read back through some of the earlier posts.   Since Petro said he didn't wish to continue, my thinking is he will not even reply now.

I have a question for Paul2 and BEP.  Thinking over these things the last few days, I find it troubling that the rapture doctrine has caused so much division amongst believers these days.   This topic seems to stir up more heat these days than it used to when I was younger.  Why is it that we are all not able to discern the same plan regarding this?   It seems each view depends on certain variables in order to reach its conclusion...for example, dispensationalism, or the separate entities of Church and Israel (Ecclesiology?).   Certainly I am no grand theologen, but I have heard various arguments for each view.   Some views make good points, but seem to omit things in other places.  My understanding of scripture taken on a whole still leads me to a pre-trib.   I just find it disturbing that the Church body in general is not in agreement on this very important teaching, the return of our Lord.

What do you guys think about this?   Is it OK to just say, "what ever happens happens".   Surely this can't be right, as we are commanded to watch and occupy till he returns.   Just wondering if you guys feel this way too, or maybe I'm just too tired to think straight   Wink

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #108 on: April 04, 2004, 09:18:42 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Thanks Brother! - You've done a ton of work. I will want to take my time with this much material and enjoy it. I usually like to take this much material and insert it into the topic notes of e-Sword. That makes it very handy to follow along in the Bible and read more context if you wish and/or read available comparisons. I also like to make my own notes indented in the topic editor as I go.

Brother, I really appreciate the work that you and 2nd Timothy have done in this study. I find it absolutely fascinating. I've wanted to post and participate more, but the last couple of weeks have been pretty wild.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #109 on: April 04, 2004, 09:46:13 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,

Brother, you made some excellent points, and I understand your concern about disagreements about the sequence of end-time events, especially the rapture.

I also completely agree that the Rapture of the Church will happen before the beginning of the Tribulation Period. I would quickly admit that I'm certainly no authority on this subject. I've read quite a bit of material from people who are recognized as experts on this issue, and many of them disagree.   Cheesy

I would hope that the discussion of this topic could be positive, even among people who don't agree. It is a fascinating and extremely difficult topic that requires large amounts of time studying the Holy Bible. This is positive.

I think that Brothers and Sisters in Christ should be able to discuss this topic, agree or disagree, and not get angry. I think that we had some significant interruption recently from an Armstrongite who frustrated everyone. Someone who denies heaven, hell, and the deity of one or more of the Holy Trinity should not be in this discussion.

I think this thread has an excellent exchange of thoughts and material. I, for one, look forward to continuing this discussion and enjoying the study.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #110 on: April 04, 2004, 05:33:27 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Thanks Brother! - You've done a ton of work. I will want to take my time with this much material and enjoy it. I usually like to take this much material and insert it into the topic notes of e-Sword. That makes it very handy to follow along in the Bible and read more context if you wish and/or read available comparisons. I also like to make my own notes indented in the topic editor as I go.

Brother, I really appreciate the work that you and 2nd Timothy have done in this study. I find it absolutely fascinating. I've wanted to post and participate more, but the last couple of weeks have been pretty wild.

Love In Christ,
Tom
just had to say feeling the same way saveing me money at the book store, guys . good stuff. Smiley
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« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2004, 02:24:11 AM »

Brothers, Paul2, 2d Tim and BEP, and whoever else................


I simply have no interest in taking competing theories, and then examining the theories, against each other,  for the sake of making one out to be more believable than the other.

When we started, we were to build the facts which were to garner the truth, from Gods word (or so I thought), as you can see, this quickly turned into trying to prove pre trib theory.

I have been asking questions, in an effort to root out error, and establish what is true, only by doing so can one establish what is to be used or discarded to reach a conclusion.  

I see you fellows do not study scriptures in this way.

As for dispproving a pre wrath post tribu rapture??  I doubt anyone can do this.....

As a child of God, who has studied Gods Word for many years, I am supremely confident, there is no one that can disprove it.

There are competing  post trib theories, just as there are pre trib ones, even some that leave, which leave wiggling room, in theirs, to allow the rapture up to a mid trib position.

I made it clear I do not subscribe to the post trib position which has emerged within the last ten years.

The very understanding of certain key verses, make the Pre Trib position irrelevant, since it is upon these erroneous interpretations that the entire theory is based upon.

I can disprove, it by simply pointing out the errors.

So if any of you, who are serious in seeking out truth and care to examine them, without discussing your theories, I will be glad to point these out for you.

There are huge errors, which unless reconciled with the NT verses themselves,  make the  Pre Tribulation Rapture, as I said .............IRRELEVANT.

I have been busy, with other things more important, and that is primarily, why I decided to not continue, this discussion, which was heading nowhere, in my opinion...

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2004, 04:39:11 PM »

     Petro,

    I told you I woundn't debate my intepretation with you until you address my challenges to your Pre-Wrath interpretation.

    I posted a 4 part study of the flaws to the Pre-wrath interpretation. You want to continue attacking my position and ignore my challenges to your interpretation. Show me where I'm wrong, show everybody where I'm wrong. Show everybody when the effects of the 7 vials of Wrath take place on the earth in Relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming, Daniel's 70th week.

    Explain who is to be tested by Satan in his final rebellion after the Millenium. Look at my posts that I have presented as evidence against the Pre-Wrath being possible. Look at the Scriptures I have used to make the case. Explain to us what the scriptures mean to you. Offer an alternative solution if you see one.

    Present your interpretation for a change. Never mind mine, focus on yours. I want to know what you think and why. I'm trying to understand how your interpretation deals with the effects of the 7 vials of wrath, when they take effect on earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the timing of the Second Coming and the 70th week of Daniel. Show me how this is possible. Go back and quote my posts and give an explaination to the questions I raised.

    I'm allowing you the chance to teach your interpretation to me and those who read. I want to understand your prespective because I've never heard your interpretation presented before. From what I've seen so far I can not accept your interpretation as possible because of the reasons I have stated in my 4 part post examining Scripture.

    My interpretation makes perfect sense to me, yours doesn't. I see problems with your interpretation that I can not ignore. Give me your answers to the questions I have raised. Make sense out of the problems I see. Why should anyone consider your view when you don't explain it so we can at least understand what you believe. I'm not saying I'll believe what ever you post but I would like to understand how you see it differently and why. The Scriptures I used in my 4 part posts are stumbling blocks to your interpretation being possible as far as I'm concerned. Your haven't shown anyone how your theory deals with the verses that to me make your interpretation impossible.

    You think I'm stupid, well maybe I am. Teach me. Explain to me where I'm wrong. What do you see that I don't see? Why can't you see what I see? These questions puzzle me. I believe that until you try to explain your position of the things I have posted that challenge the Pre-Wrath Rapture, you won't realize there are problems. I don't know if you want to face them or not but I see problems. I'm asking you to explain the events according to your position in a way that I can understand the timing of the effects of the 7 vials of the Wrath of God in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week.

    I don't see how your theory is possible. I don't see how your theory can be defended. I don't understand why you don't see the flaws I have pointed out. I don't understand how you can ignore this issue. I believe I have proven your theory is not possible. You want to continue your assault on my interpretation while your interpretation remains undefended and proven wrong.

    Why won't you present your interpretation in defense of my challenge to the Pre-wrath Rapture? Why won't you show us how you reconcile the Scriptures I provided as support for my challenge? Why won't you show us how you can still believe what you believe after the evidence I provided points out flaws? You don't see flaws? Then reply to the flaws I see and explain where I'm wrong. Tell me how it works. Address each point I made and explain the correct understanding.

    Present your evidence. Pretend this is Trial. You have been assaulting the Pre-Tribulation interpretation from the beginning. I have made a challenge to your Pre-Wrath interpretation using your interpretation to do it, not mine. I don't see how you can come to your conclusions based on the Scripture I presented as evidence. I don't see your interpretation as being a possiblity. If I'm wrong show me.

   I consider you to be proven wrong as of right now. You want to continue to attack and save face but I think your cart is hitched to a dead horse. I'm beating on a dead horse right now.

    I believe I have proved your interpretation has flaws. Your interpretations flaws are recorded on my 4 part post for all to see. They've been up for a few days now. As of right now my challenges to your interpretation remain undefended or answered. As of right now your Pre-Wrath interpretation has been proven to be flawed. You want to ignore this but that changes nothing.

   All who read can see that I'm more than willing to allow you to present and defend your position. If you have answers post them, If you don't have the answers say so. I'll just keep beating the dead horse. I have allowed you to attack and belittle me for a long time. I deserve the right to ask you to explain your interpretation seeing you always attack mine.

    I have presented what I believe are scriptures which prove beyond doubt that the Pre-Wrath Rapture is not possible because Scripture does not allow it to be possible. You want to ignore this but I believe that I have proven beyond doubt that your theory has flaws. I'm not willing to discuss my interpretation with you until you address the issues I raised with your interpretation.

    Until you can present and defend your position you lack the credibility to attack the Pre-Tribulation interpretation.

    Your theory has flaws and I've exposed the flaws unchallenged and unopposed and so far undefended.

    Why should anyone pay attention to you when you can't present and defend what you believe? Why should anyone listen to your attacks on the Pre-Trib. interpretation which you don't understand, when you can't or won't present your interpretation of the Pre-wrath interrpretation you claim to hold?

   I don't think you have an answer to my challenges. I used Scripture to present my evidence. You should have the ability to take those Scriptures and explain how they do not prove your theory wrong. You should be able to explain all the issues I brought up in my 4 part post on the Pre-Wrath Rapture which you continue to ignore.

   Your theory is down for the count. Days are going by and no responce or defense of your position has been offered.

    I'd like to know what others think about that. What do the rest of you think? Anybody wondering as I am of why Petro won't defend the Pre-Wrath position from my challenges to his theory being even possible? Anybody think Petro doesn't have the answers?

   Well Petro, do you have any answers to the challenges I have made against the Pre-Wrath Rapture being possible?

    Can you explain "the timing of the effects of the 7 vials of the Wrath of God in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week or can't you?

   If you can provide the answers to the questions I have raised in my 4 part post we'd all like to have them. Everybody should want the answers to the questions I have raised. I don't believe the Pre-Wrath Rapture is possible at all. I provided my evidence of why. My challenge remains unanswered and undefended and unchallenged and the clock is still ticking.

                                                      Paul2 Cool
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« Reply #113 on: April 07, 2004, 05:33:14 PM »

   Petro,

   Which part of present and defend your intepretation don't you understand?  Cool

   I have made a challenge to your interpretation using Scripture in a 4 part series. I believe my evidence proves the Pre-Wrath theory to be flawed and not possible.

   Until the issues in my 4 part post are explained the evidence provided proves the Pre-Wrath interpretation is not Biblical or possible.

    Prove me wrong. Show me the answer to the problems I have addressed. Teach your interpretation. Explain your interpretation. Present your interpretation or change your interpretation because of the flaws I have pointed out. How can your interpretation be possible? What are your answers to the questions I raised? If you can't answer the questions just say so. Please don't keep avoiding the issue.

   I believe that I have proven your Pre-Wrath theory to be wrong. My evidence has been presented for all to see. I see no alterative view to make me believe I have not proven the Pre-Wrath Rapture is not possible. When I remain unchallenged I'm led to the conclusion that I have proven my case. That there is no defense possible and therefore the Pre-Wrath interpretation is also not possible.

   Until we see evidence presented to the contrary the Pre-Wrath Rapture has been proven to be impossible. You may question my theory because you don't understand it but your theory was destroyed by its own interpretation. I didn't need to do anything other than to apply your theory to Scripture to see if there was even a slight possibility of it being correct and Scripture proved it can not be correct. Applying your theory to Scripture does not work. Applying the Pre-Tribulation interpretation to Scripture allows the possiblity that it is correct. Your theory defeats itself. The Pre-Tribulation theory does not need to be applied to your theory because your theory has internal conflicts that have no resolution allowed by Scripture.

    Your theory is dead and exposed as of now. If I'm wrong you'll have to present your evidence and explain the Scriptures I used as evidence against the Pre-Wrath position being possible.

   You claim to seek after the truth, well prove it by seeking the truth in the evidence I presented against the Pre-Wrath Rapture being possible. Reveal the truth so all who read can understand how you reconcile the Scriptures I have used as evidence that your theory is flawed.

   Answer these things and I'll be happy to allow you to start bashing me again. I provide answers which you don't like but at least I try to provide answers and explainations of what I believe. You try. Why should people not consider your Pre-Wrath interpretation to be proved wrong? Why should people listen to you bash a theory you don't understand when you can't present a theory you claim to hold as truth? How do you dispute my challenges to your theory? Do you have any disputes to my challenges I have made or have I won?

    Do you have answers to my challenges or not? I don't think you can present or defend your interpretation but I'm giving you the chance to do so and prove me wrong.

    I'm going to take "no reply" as a victory and consider that I have made my case against the Pre-Wrath Rapture being possible or defended. I'll retract my claimed victory when I'm shown evidence that explains why I'm wrong and how the Pre-Wrath Rapture is possible against the Scriptures I have provided as evidence it can not be possible.

    The balls in your court. After months of attacks I have finally made a challenge to you. Explain and defend your theory in regards to my 4 part post on why I believe your theory is impossible. I know you love to attack the Pre-Tribulation theory but now I ask you to present and defend your Pre-wrath theory. Humor me as I have humored you. Show us that you can defend your position when people attack your interpretation as you do to theirs. Once you reply to my challenge your welcome to start on your attacks again.

    First show us that your able to present and defend your theory when all Scriptures are applied to it. Give us a lesson on Pre-Wrath Rapture 101! How can your theory be possible in light of my 4 part posts of challenges?

    Don't worry about me, I'm not holding my breath!


    I had planned on this being a one-liner post but got carried away trying to encourage Petro to respond again. Sorry  Wink

                                                       Paul2 Cool
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« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2004, 07:06:19 PM »

Paul2,

You have no basis for challenging anything, you haven't even cleared up your misunderstandings of the scriptures you have butchered to get where you got.!

I have tried to get you to explain these inconsistencies from the begining, and you have failed miserably, these questions will not die by your ignoring them.

Just because you have a theory, doesn't make it true, even thou you appear to be able to expalin it by ignoring tough questions.

Your theory, has died with your misintrepretation of the apostasia  the  "falling away" at 2 Th 2:3, so you have nothing beyond that point, except pure speculation.

So what else can I say;  either "falling away" means apostasy, or rature, which is it??

You do greatly error not knowning the scriptures....................the rest is founded on this error.....

If you ever get around to explaining this modern interpretation of the word apostasia, the word apantesis awaits your explanantion, both of these words by themselves discredit your understanding of timing and occurance of the rapture, ............that is a fact..


You need to face it.  or lose credibility....As I said before, the Pre Tribulation Rapture is of recent origins, begining with a prophecy of Margaret Mc Donald in and around 1830, there is no evidence of it, being taught in the church prior to that time.

You have to face the music sooner or later on this crucial fact.

My questions to you, are designed to get you to critically examine your theory with scripture, or think things through, instead of running around half cocked on this subject.


These Two key words, and there understanding must be considered and reconciled with the Pre Trib teaching, understand these, and, there is no Pre Trib rapture, onyl by ignoring these definitions, can one continue teaching such a spurious doctrine.

There is a third word, one should familiarize themselves with also, and that is the word;  parousia (at his coming) 1 Cor 15;23.


You really should consider these things.

Why allow yourself be labeled, a false prophet, because of your refusal to work out the correct interpretative teachings of scripture...??


Blessings,  
Petro
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« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2004, 07:27:01 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Petro,

Brother, nobody here claimed to be an expert on this subject. I disagree with you, but I'm not an expert either. Most of the self-proclaimed experts and recognized experts fall into two camps:  (1) Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, (2) Mid-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

However, the only REAL expert on this issue is the Holy Trinity. We can simply agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

BEP,

You are correct, "self pro-claimed experts are found in both of these camps, I have always wondered why they consider themselves "experts", when they are neither, most all of these ignore the meaning of words also, that is why they rest on error.


Quote
the only REAL expert on this issue is the Holy Trinity.


As I stated previously I agree with you here.

If you are serious about the studying you have been doing on this matter, I trust you have considered the words I have given you all.


Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #116 on: April 08, 2004, 12:09:35 AM »

     Petro,

   LOL, you can call me anything you want, doesn't mean its true.

    Back to attacking my interpretation again I see. You just can't defend the flaws I've pointed out in your interpretation.

    I had no credibility to lose with you. Everyone else can see whats going on here. You are fooling yourself and nobody else.

    I find it funny that you want to teach me about my theory but can't present your own theory or address the flaws which i have pointed out.

    Your defense is : "You need to face it.  or lose credibility....As I said before, the Pre Tribulation Rapture is of recent origins, begining with a prophecy of Margaret Mc Donald in and around 1830, there is no evidence of it, being taught in the church prior to that time."

    Classic, your back to Margaret McDonald again. Good presentation and defense of your theory you've got going!

   You said "Why allow yourself be labeled, a false prophet, because of your refusal to work out the correct interpretative teachings of scripture...??"

   Well instead of calling me a false prophet why not show me the correct interpretation of the Scriptures I used to expose flaws in your theory? I find it laughable that you still refuse to address the issues I have stated as flaws to your theory.

   Whats the big secret? Why can't you explain what you believe? What are you afraid of? Why do you find it so hard to present an answer to my challenge? I posted 4 pages analizing your theory and the glaring flaws with it I see.

    Your defense of your theory is to try to attack my theory again. I'm not going to discuss my theory until we have discussed yours. We have spent months with you attacking the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I think its fair that we spend a few minutes addressing the issues I have presented as flaws to your theory.

    You only want to "play" by your rules. Try playing by mine for a change. You have been doing all the attacking. I have been allowing you to post whatever you want. I'm tired of being attacked by someone who can't and won't present their interpretation.

    You just don't seem to get it. If anyone wants to know why I repeat myself so often its because of people like you.

    {All together now, one more time in harmony}
   Petro, Can you explain "the timing of the effects of the 7 vials of the Wrath of God in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week or can't you?

    I've asked the same question so many times I'm tempted to go back and count how many time I've asked it. To save myself time I'll refer to this question as "the question" from now on because I'm tired of typing it over and over. People are probably tired of reading it over and over. We'll all be able to recite my question by heart I've asked it so many times.

   Forget Margaret McDonald, forget the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and focus on what Petro believes. I have every right to ask what you believe if your going to be calling me a false prophet. You can call me "Mary" McDonald but that doesn't answer the question does it?

   You can't present or defend your interpretation. Thats the bottom line! If you could have you would have or at least should have. I've stumped the all wise Petro. My challenge remains unanswered.

   It appears I know more about your theory than you do. I might be wrong about that perhaps you know your theory has flaws and that you can't defend it against the evidence in my 4 part post.

    Perhaps your hpoing that my posts will become buried and nobody will go back and read them. I'll just resurrect them when they get buried. You crossed the line with me when you accused me of being a false prophet. I think your wrong on your interpretation but have not called you a false prophet.

    I decided it was time to challenge you and your interpretation after allowing you months to attack me and my interpretation.

   Somehow you see this as dishonest. Whatever! I'm asking you to explain how your theory deals with the points I addressed in my 4 part post. If your theory has nothing to hide then explain it. You've lost the credibility not me.

   I'm not afraid of your defense, I'd love to learn what defense you can offer. I'm learning how to debate your interpretation and I believe I have won the debate. I have stated my case, backed it up with Scripture and received no reply or any explaination. I've written several posts trying to get you to present your theory but you remain silent.

   I'll deal with your questions after we finish discussing your theory for a change. I don't want to discuss the Pre-Tribulation Rapture with you at this time. I want to discuss the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the flaws I have pointed out with the theory.

   I tchanged my mind, I do take offense to you calling me false prophet. You have no right.  You conceal your theory which I am seeking to bring out into the light of day. You won't explain "the questions" I have raised about your theory. You haven't presented your theory yet here you are on my thread attacking my interpretation repeatedly. You want to attack me then earn the right to attack me. Present your interpretation to the questions I have asked. Stop hiding behind Margaret McDonald and your attacks and deal with your interpretation for once in your life.

    I could resort to name calling to try and humiliate you into answering me but I not going to. This victory is to important to cheapen it with insults. I wish I didn't have to type any of these last posts. I was hoping you would present and defend your interpretation. Obviously you can't or we wouldn't be talking about Margaret McDonald again! LOL  Grin

   I don't think anyone is listening to you anymore Petro. I'm sure their reading these posts for entertainment but you lost your credibility to debate me. You will not present your interpretation to us but you want us to let you call us false prophets and attack us. I'm here on MY thread to present my interpretation and to discuss it. Your here on MY thread to stop my presentation or disrupt it. What about Petro's interpretation. Do you charge money for your interpretation, is that it? How much does it cost for you to present your interpretation? Maybe we can get a collection going to pay you to enlighten us to your interpretation. I'll pay 10 bucks to see it after all this time of trying to get you to present it for free.

   I've said my piece about 6 times on this. Each time its the same thing, Paul2 trying to pry Petro's concealed interpretation out of him. I'm willing to pay for it now. 10 bucks, give me your interpretation to my 4 part post on the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

   I'm going to take my 4 pages and start an new thread with them. I'm not going to stop beating this dead horse until I am shown the answer to why I should. I'm convinced beyond doubt that I have proven your theory wrong. You offered NOTHING to change my mind.

                                                   Paul2 Cool




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« Reply #117 on: April 08, 2004, 02:32:05 AM »

     Petro and all who read,

    I just looked back over the posts. Starting on page 20 of this threat I've asked you the same question at least 30 times and made references to it about a hundred times if not more. If anyone doubts it just go back to page 20 and read my posts to Petro and read his responces. Its truely becoming funny!

  For the 101st time, "When do the effects of the 7 vials take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?"

    I began asking this question on March 26th on reply 274. I've asked for it or made reference to it well over a hundred times with NO REPLY from you. You choose to ignore my question I've made reference to 101 times but still continue to attack the Pre-Tribulation Rapture using Margaret McDonald. I'm laughing out loud!

  I don't think Petro can answer ""When the effects of the 7 vials take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?"

    I wish someone would ask Petro if he knows the answer to the question why he hides it from us. If you can answer my challenges why don't you? We are just supposed to believe that you have the answers but not expect you to explain? Are we just supposed to trust you without testing your interpretation with Scripture? I believe you have no answer for my challenge and until you prove otherwise I win! Your theory is not possible plain and simple, just the way you like it!
   The Bible is not plain and simple, its the most complexed collection of writings ever written and the Word of God!
                                           

                                                            Paul2 Cool

For the 102nd time, "When do the effects of the 7 vials take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?" I can't stop, I'm addicted to these words now. I hear them in my sleep. I lost count of how mant times I used these words. Anyone want a good laugh? Look at posts from #274 on this thread to now and look at how many times I've used these words and how many times Petro has completely ignored them. Petro will try to talk about anything except my question.

     As if to be saying "Pay no attention to Paul2 asking me that question for which I have no answer yet. What about Margaret McDonald! I'm Rolling on the floor laughing out loud over here! It doesn't get any better than this! This will be known as a CLASSIC! Petro remains speachless after 102 tries to learn his theory. The only SECRET RAPTURE THEORY I've seen is the one Petro is afraid to reveal to anyone. Talk about a private interpretation, his is so secret he can't tell anyone about it! I'm cracking myself up over here! I truely find this humourus but in a sad way. Don't bother using the phrase Secret Rapture with me. Your the one keeping the interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture a secret! I'm even willing to pay $10 bucks for it! Maybe 2nd Timothy and Tom will chip in! Cool

    "SECRET RAPTURE" "PRIVATE INTERPRETATION" SOUNDS LIKE PETRO'S LACK OF INTERPRETATION. Margaret McDonald
 Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald
 Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald!

    And the answer to the question I've asked 103 times is:

Margaret McDonald! Margaret McDonald! Margaret McDonald!
LOL!!!!!!!

    Thats what I call CLASSIC! Cool

    Never mind Margaret McDonald! Just deal with the issues of my 4 part post and the famous question I'll ask again for the 104th time now.

    ""When do the effects of the 7 vials of Wrath take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?"


    Take your time I've waited since Marth 26th already for any responce at all and I'm still waiting. Don't take to long, Christ may Rapture the Church before you can present your interpretation of why he can't! I wouldn't bet against it.

                                                         Paul2 Cool
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« Reply #118 on: April 08, 2004, 07:29:55 PM »

Paul2,


I say keep waiting!

You have refused to asnwer issues raised by me, from the very begining.

It is now clear to me, your invitation for input  by anyone, was only a come on, in an attempt of advancing your  teaching.


You really had no intentions of having your theory tested, at all.

Well, I hate to tell you, your theory has not passed muster.

Good luck, selling it.....to others.


Blessings..



Petro
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« Reply #119 on: April 08, 2004, 07:34:47 PM »

PS                      Paul2,

It matters little if you start another thread on this same subject, the same questions I have posed will need to be addressed, sooner or later.

Otherwise the end result of your conclusions will be incomplete..

So you simply will find yourself at sqaure one.


Period.........


Blessings,

Petro
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